I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.
We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?
It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.
And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”
The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters
Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
We can start by rejoining the single market. We can then reintroduce freedom of movement. Without these, it will be harder to rebuild the economy.
You had the chance to make that case and lost it. It would be a massive FU to the part of the Brexit vote that was driven by immigration
Polling demonstrates that they no longer really care about immigration.
Plus, those people will lose the next election (and the one after that) and according to Brexit logic that means they need to “accept” they have lost have no more say in the matter.
More seriously, some of the analysis I’ve seen suggests that mass immigration from Eastern Europe is unlikely to happen again given demographics and relative wealth.
Remainers had the chance to make a positive contribution but decided to try and overturn the vote instead. That was a shame.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?
What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
I went to Poundbury about 15 years ago and it was disappointing. It just felt fake, and seemed to be a kind of dormitory for cars.
Otherwise, I agree.
I think Poundbury feels fake because we've been conditioned to believe modern architecture and urbanism has to look bland and functional. I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
I suspect Brexit is ultimately stuffed because of demographic change. The evidence so far (see John Curtice for instance) is that pro-Eu sentiment is more akin to accepting same-sex marriage rather than becoming more economically conservative as one ages and accumulates assets. Millennials aren't changing their mind, and aren't likely to become convinced that the stuff on Turkey, the £350m a week etc. was anything other than a pack of lies. I think there's a fair chance demographic change alone will lead to there being a two-thirds majority for rejoin by the 2030s.
I suspect Brexit is ultimately stuffed because of demographic change. The evidence so far (see John Curtice for instance) is that pro-Eu sentiment is more akin to accepting same-sex marriage rather than becoming more economically conservative as one ages and accumulates assets. Millennials aren't changing their mind, and aren't likely to become convinced that the stuff on Turkey, the £350m a week etc. was anything other than a pack of lies. I think there's a fair chance demographic change alone will lead to there being a two-thirds majority for rejoin by the 2030s.
I have a strange feeling people like you - and all these youthful liberal Remainers - will change your minds a tad when the EU is run by populist, seriously hard right governments from Madrid to Stockholm, and from Rome to Budapest
If, not when.
And unlike your lot, many of us are pragmatists - something you cheerfully eschew.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?
What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
I went to Poundbury about 15 years ago and it was disappointing. It just felt fake, and seemed to be a kind of dormitory for cars.
Otherwise, I agree.
I think Poundbury feels fake because we've been conditioned to believe modern architecture and urbanism has to look bland and functional. I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
They just need to put the bloody cars in an underground car park UNDER the pretty car-less square. Like the French do. It’s not hard
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?
What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
I went to Poundbury about 15 years ago and it was disappointing. It just felt fake, and seemed to be a kind of dormitory for cars.
Otherwise, I agree.
I think Poundbury feels fake because we've been conditioned to believe modern architecture and urbanism has to look bland and functional. I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
No, it looks fake because they used classic styling without a deeper understanding of local vernacular, and because - apart from the design - it’s built as a modern, car-bound commuter suburb.
The public spaces were (and maybe still are) dead.
I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.
We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?
It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.
And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”
The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters
Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
We can start by rejoining the single market. We can then reintroduce freedom of movement. Without these, it will be harder to rebuild the economy.
You had the chance to make that case and lost it. It would be a massive FU to the part of the Brexit vote that was driven by immigration
Polling demonstrates that they no longer really care about immigration.
Plus, those people will lose the next election (and the one after that) and according to Brexit logic that means they need to “accept” they have lost have no more say in the matter.
More seriously, some of the analysis I’ve seen suggests that mass immigration from Eastern Europe is unlikely to happen again given demographics and relative wealth.
Remainers had the chance to make a positive contribution but decided to try and overturn the vote instead. That was a shame.
What is a shame is that you seem to be trying to revisit grievances from five years ago.
As I say above, your particular, badly-informed demographic (ie “leavers”) are now on the out, their moment of chaotic ineptitude is closing, and they wont be asked for their opinion while the rest of us get on and try to figure out what’s next.
Brexit is not even in the top five reasons we're fucked economically.
England hasn't built a reservoir in thirty years. HS2 has taken twenty years from proposal to (best case scenario) "completion". Nationwide, house prices are seven times average earnings, compared to three times in 1995. Leeds is the largest city region in Europe with no metro network. The Secretary of State for Environment is currently supporting a wind farm in the North Sea, while opposing the infrastructure required to bring the electricity to the mainland where it can actually be used....
Rejoining the EU, unless it comes with massive investment in infrastructure and the abolition of the Town and Country Planning Act, won't fix it.
(Been absent out looking for brown interior woodwork paint to refresh a faux-fireplace - remarkably no one seems to have any, so that tenant is now getting a dark grey fireplace.)
Interesting comment FPT. I've edited out the anti-pensioner blurb.
The Leeds Metro is of interest; I don't understand why they have not done it. Metropolitan area transport systems where they have been created have been, imo, successes; I think that at some stage southern Nimby-towns will suddenly find they are 50 years out of date. We've done reservoirs vs reducing the excess 30% of water we use before. Fixing house prices is a matter of tax reform and political will, and no one has the courage to do much there - I don't expect anything from Starmer, but hope he will surprise. I'm not doing planning today.
I share the view of some others that the Conservatives need a decade in opposition to recover their soul after they (I hope) escape from Steptoe & Son politics.
At present, our latest fuckwit of a transport Minister, the Govt having declared that people flying from Newcastle (and eventually Edinburgh etc) will stay in the aeroplanes because HS2 was unaffordable, has in the last 14 days promised an equivalent sum to that saved to holes in the ground or bridges in the South (Stonehenge Tunnel, Silvertown Tunnel, East London River Crossing), having previously tipped huge amounts of HS2 money into holes in the ground to placate the Home Counties.
Underneath as a cause, I'm inclined to point to widespread institutional failure to deliver in practice.
A large example would be the Edinburgh Tram System, which is aiui headed for £1bn in costs. Currently many of the trams, with hundreds of people on board, in Leith Walk - a main Edinburgh shopping street, are being stopped and delayed by illegal parking, and there is neither the capability to inform the public of delays, nor the will to deal with the antisocial drivers. This has been going on for 2-3 years, now.
I have a photograph showing a delivery pantechnicon destroying the pavement one side, whilst a work crew are repairing smashed paving slabs the other side - presumably to be destroyed again tomorrow.
For a smaller English example, I'd point to pedestrianised Norwich, where the police spent their time forcing the pedestrians to the side to allow convoys of lawbreaking drivers to take their vehicles through the pedestrian street. I'd also point to the Chief Constable who refused to sort out dangerous parking at a school run because the parents abused his officers.
Meanwhile the Conservative Next Election Hail Mary Pass consumes tens of billions.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
What is this stuff about Remoaners? I voted Leave; my complaint is that our government is insisting on shooting the country in the foot through restrictive planning, while Poland has increased its GDP PP by 10x in thirty years. I think we should look at what they've done, which clearly works, instead of continuing our suicidal build-nothing policy. What exactly do you disagree with?
We can’t copy a country which began with a GDP per capita of $3000 or whatever. The situations are entirely different. They played catch up, assisted by the EU and the end of communism, and with a very poorly paid but quite well educated population. Good for them
Unless you are suggesting we build car factories where we can pay people £2 an hour to undercut France and Germany?
Communism kept a lot of places artifically poor.
Yes, as you’ve pointed out before places like the Czech Republic or Slovenia SHOULD be as affluent as Western Europe. For multiple reasons
It was Moscow which kept them down and desperate
Partly, but also this is a form of copium.
Britain had some of the highest standards of living in the world before the War, so this kind of mass sorpasso of the North can’t just be handwaved away.
London and the South, yes. Economic changes after 1920 were devastating for the parts of the UK that depended upon mining, shipbuilding, heavy industry, like the North East, South Wales, Clydeside, and other industrialised areas.
That’s true, but
a) the Midlands were one of the richest parts of the UK until the 1970s
b) I’m willing to put a small bet on say, Newcastle, being a wealthier city (per person) than, say, Warsaw, throughout the entire 20th century.
If someone knew how to find the stats.
It would have been, I'm sure. But, pre-War it would certainly have been poorer than a city like Prague or Riga.
Prague maybe. But we forget how “rich” the UK was.
I think there was a moment in the 30s when British GDP PP surpassed the United States, which was busy having a Depression.
Real incomes in the UK didn't surpass their 1918 level in the UK until 1938. It's quite possible, though, that we overook the USA briefly, because their hit from the Depression was worse. It was the War, far more than the New Deal that rescued the US economy. US GDP per head in 1946 was probably double the level of a decade previously.
@Leon when have I ever said that I’m not returning to the UK? Indeed, the plan was to “do three years”.
I am alternately charmed and horrified by the US, albeit I have upstate New York for July so currently more charmed.
You’ve said several times you have no desire to return to our Brexity toilet and you are looking to retire somewhere like north Portugal etc
And your endless and relentless negativity about the UK does not speak of someone yearning to set up home in Sussex, Stoke or Stornaway
I don’t think I’ve ever said “I’ve no desire to return”, because that was never the plan.
Sussex is v nice in parts. I’ve never been to Stornaway but I suspect the isolation would be difficult for me. I doubt anyone actively wishes to retire in Stoke.
This is a large world and I doubt I’ll be retiring to a single place.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
Unfair. The City of London is a bewildering mix of brilliant and hideous. At its best it is an absolutely exhilarating mix of the old and new unmatched in the world. Recall that to the right of this photo is a 2000 year old Roman Wall and an entirely intact 1000 year old Norman fortress
I voted Remain but it's time for other Remainers to accept the result of the referendum.
We left; that’s done. Is anyone arguing about that ?
It’s not ‘up to’ those who think it was a bad idea to change their minds based upon a vote taken years ago, whose mandate is expired.
And quite evidently, it’s no longer just remainers who think it’s a shit show.
Too many are saying “it’s bad because of brexit” and offering no solution. They should be saying “how do we make it better”
The answer “rejoin the EU” is not persuasive because it will be incredibly divisive and result in alienation of a large percentage of the voters
Tangible, incremental steps to make things better is what are required
We can start by rejoining the single market. We can then reintroduce freedom of movement. Without these, it will be harder to rebuild the economy.
You had the chance to make that case and lost it. It would be a massive FU to the part of the Brexit vote that was driven by immigration
Polling demonstrates that they no longer really care about immigration.
Plus, those people will lose the next election (and the one after that) and according to Brexit logic that means they need to “accept” they have lost have no more say in the matter.
More seriously, some of the analysis I’ve seen suggests that mass immigration from Eastern Europe is unlikely to happen again given demographics and relative wealth.
Remainers had the chance to make a positive contribution but decided to try and overturn the vote instead. That was a shame.
What is a shame is that you seem to be trying to revisit grievances from five years ago.
As I say above, your particular, badly-informed demographic (ie “leavers”) are now on the out, their moment of chaotic ineptitude is closing, and they wont be asked for their opinion while the rest of us get on and try to figure out what’s next.
Not at all - the grievance is that too many in the media and chattering classes are relentless negative rather than trying to improve things. That is today.
As for your attempt to say that people who vote for the losing side in an election!should be ignored… well didn’t Obama say “there are no red states or blue states, only American states”?
Of course they will accept that (as seems likely) there will be a Labour-led government. That doesn’t mean they have no voice on individual policy issues. It just means that the government is likely to win most votes in parliament
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
Unfair. The City of London is a bewildering mix of brilliant and hideous. At its best it is an absolutely exhilarating mix of the old and new unmatched in the world. Recall that to the right of this photo is a 2000 year old Roman Wall and an entirely intact 1000 year old Norman fortress
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
When did you last go to the City? It’s one of the most magical urban environments in the world
At street level absolutely. It’s incredible. But the skyline is a bit of a mess. Sometimes great sometimes downright ugly
Trying to preserve St Paul’s sight lines has meant the skyscrapers are massively clustered together with too much density. However one single super tall skyscraper in the middle would solve this and give the whole City a pleasing pyramidality. We just need to get rid of the stupid health and safety block on towers over 1000ft
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?
What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
I went to Poundbury about 15 years ago and it was disappointing. It just felt fake, and seemed to be a kind of dormitory for cars.
Otherwise, I agree.
I think Poundbury feels fake because we've been conditioned to believe modern architecture and urbanism has to look bland and functional. I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
@Leon when have I ever said that I’m not returning to the UK? Indeed, the plan was to “do three years”.
I am alternately charmed and horrified by the US, albeit I have upstate New York for July so currently more charmed.
You’ve said several times you have no desire to return to our Brexity toilet and you are looking to retire somewhere like north Portugal etc
And your endless and relentless negativity about the UK does not speak of someone yearning to set up home in Sussex, Stoke or Stornaway
I don’t think I’ve ever said “I’ve no desire to return”, because that was never the plan.
Sussex is v nice in parts. I’ve never been to Stornaway but I suspect the isolation would be difficult for me. I doubt anyone actively wishes to retire in Stoke.
This is a large world and I doubt I’ll be retiring to a single place.
I’ve decided I’m not retiring anywhere. Just travel til I drop. The whole retiring thing is like setting up an antechamber to death. No ta
Having just dissed twentieth century architecture, I am today, for complicated reasons, spending 9 hours on a minibus from Manchester to Kings College London and back. For unclear reasons, the driver appears to be eschewing all opportunities to head for the M1, and we are heading out via the A40. We have just passed the Hoover building andmy spirits were lifted immensely. I wouldn't replace Warsaw's old town with it, but I'm pleased to see some really good C20 architecture. Presumably we'll now be heading home via the M40. How exciting. Maybe we'll see Red Kites.
We DID see red kites! Going NW from Bucks to Oxon on the M40 is one if my favourite spots on the motorway network. The landscape opens up suddenly, and it feels like arriving in a brand new realm. And you sometimes get to see quite a lot of rare and magnificent birds. No one else on the minibus seemed that excited.
Anyone heard of the 79th New York (Scottish) Highlanders? They had sporrans and everything.
Exotic uniforms were all the rage for American regiments in the early day of US Civil War, continuing antebellum trend for militia units in Northern AND Southern states.
Units garbed - at the start of conflict anyway - in Highland style, were way outnumbered by those dressed in imitation of French North African Zouaves:
My guess is that Zouave get-up being kinder to guys with bad knees than Caledonian fashion!
Pretty quickly most fancy uniforms were relegated to formal parades. Instead, soldiers would frequently place emblems on their caps (kepi) or hats (wide-brim slouch).
For example, customary for Irish regiments to sport "a sprig of green".
Another example was the black hats worn by the Union army's "Iron Brigade" which were a sight NOT welcomed by the Rebs on any battlefield. As in, "oh shit, it's them Black hat bastards again!"
The UK will not rejoin the EU, because the EU wouldn't have us. The last thing they want is an awkward flip flopping member.
I'm not actually sure that's true. They always loved our money, and we'd undoubtedly be huge net contributors again if we were idiotic enough to rejoin. And they'd love the prestige boost of us admitting that we made a mistake. And of course they'd love the increase in power that 70 million people and more nuclear weapons would give them.
What they probably wouldn't do is enter into negotiations if they thought that the final deal would have to be approved by a referendum here, as it probably would be - they've always hated democracy.
I disagree.
We were awkward numbers when we were members. Why would you want to invite someone into the club who is going to cause you much hassle.
Also, it only takes one to veto. I can see why the Dutch or the Poles might want us in, but why would the French?
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?
What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
I went to Poundbury about 15 years ago and it was disappointing. It just felt fake, and seemed to be a kind of dormitory for cars.
Otherwise, I agree.
I think Poundbury feels fake because we've been conditioned to believe modern architecture and urbanism has to look bland and functional. I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
No, it looks fake because they used classic styling without a deeper understanding of local vernacular, and because - apart from the design - it’s built as a modern, car-bound commuter suburb.
The public spaces were (and maybe still are) dead.
Been watching the Tour de France and tennis rather than PB today so apologies for coming to this late.
The last part of TSE's thread header is just plain wrong. Brexit is nothing like prohibition. Alcohol didn't change between 1920 and 1933 and most importantly most people didn't stop drinking it. As a result it was a simple process to revoke it.
The EU (unlike alcohol) is ever evolving and usually in ways that will not appeal to voters when they are faced with the new reality. Moreover, the actual process of reversing Brexit will be even more complex, divisive and costly than either originally joining or leaving. Most politicians for decades to come are going to look at it and go 'no thanks'.
So what will we rejoin in 20 or 30 years if we are asked the question? Who knows. Certainly none of the rejoiners advocating a reversal now and indeed none of the Brexiteers either.
What I do think (hope) will happen is that we will join the EEA via EFTA. Once we do that a huge amount of the pressure to rejoin the EU will disappear.
The UK will not rejoin the EU, because the EU wouldn't have us. The last thing they want is an awkward flip flopping member.
I'm not actually sure that's true. They always loved our money, and we'd undoubtedly be huge net contributors again if we were idiotic enough to rejoin. And they'd love the prestige boost of us admitting that we made a mistake. And of course they'd love the increase in power that 70 million people and more nuclear weapons would give them.
What they probably wouldn't do is enter into negotiations if they thought that the final deal would have to be approved by a referendum here, as it probably would be - they've always hated democracy.
I disagree.
We were awkward numbers when we were members. Why would you want to invite someone into the club who is going to cause you much hassle.
Also, it only takes one to veto. I can see why the Dutch or the Poles might want us in, but why would the French?
And many other countries. Eg the Maltese are gaining from being one of the only English speaking countries in the EU along with Ireland. If the UK returned - bang goes that significant advantage for a small country
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
When did you last go to the City? It’s one of the most magical urban environments in the world
Having lived there for several years, I agree the City is magical - but ferret mode is necessary.
I am not aware of too many places where wandering around and exploring reveals quite so much. I'm reminded of the tiny arcaded Fountain courtyard of St-Vedast-Alias-Foster (opposite St Pauls), where I wandered in one day and discovered an Epstein Relief of a former Canon, or the original Mansion House 9000 phone (where the Samaritans were founded by the Curate Chad Varah) in a display case in another city church.
Again, you travel to weird, wonderful and beautiful places, and ruin every photograph by putting yourself in it. You are not interesting. Your beer is not interesting. The table is not interesting. Take your uninteresting self out of the photo and photograph the background. You will never be an artist until you learn to do this.
Au contraire. The quantity and variety of Leon’s alcoholic intake is a source of constant wonder.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
When did you last go to the City? It’s one of the most magical urban environments in the world
At street level absolutely. It’s incredible. But the skyline is a bit of a mess. Sometimes great sometimes downright ugly
Trying to preserve St Paul’s sight lines has meant the skyscrapers are massively clustered together with too much density. However one single super tall skyscraper in the middle would solve this and give the whole City a pleasing pyramidality. We just need to get rid of the stupid health and safety block on towers over 1000ft
One thing the city does is knock down and rebuild. One architect whinned that “important” building are lost - ie instead of shit buildings being preserved forever, they get replaced.
A part of this is the ding dong struggle between the City and Canary Wharf for office quality and price - not forgetting amenities like shops and pubs.
Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).
That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.
Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.
The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that. Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.
Hahahaha.
You are deluded if you think being a member of the EU made us anything other than a rule taker anyway. That is the whole point of QMV. We don't get to choose.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
When did you last go to the City? It’s one of the most magical urban environments in the world
At street level absolutely. It’s incredible. But the skyline is a bit of a mess. Sometimes great sometimes downright ugly
Trying to preserve St Paul’s sight lines has meant the skyscrapers are massively clustered together with too much density. However one single super tall skyscraper in the middle would solve this and give the whole City a pleasing pyramidality. We just need to get rid of the stupid health and safety block on towers over 1000ft
Sorry, because "the skyline is a bit of a mess", the City is ugly?
Again, you travel to weird, wonderful and beautiful places, and ruin every photograph by putting yourself in it. You are not interesting. Your beer is not interesting. The table is not interesting. Take your uninteresting self out of the photo and photograph the background. You will never be an artist until you learn to do this.
Au contraire. The quantity and variety of Leon’s alcoholic intake is a source of constant wonder.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
@Leon when have I ever said that I’m not returning to the UK? Indeed, the plan was to “do three years”.
I am alternately charmed and horrified by the US, albeit I have upstate New York for July so currently more charmed.
You’ve said several times you have no desire to return to our Brexity toilet and you are looking to retire somewhere like north Portugal etc
And your endless and relentless negativity about the UK does not speak of someone yearning to set up home in Sussex, Stoke or Stornaway
I don’t think I’ve ever said “I’ve no desire to return”, because that was never the plan.
Sussex is v nice in parts. I’ve never been to Stornaway but I suspect the isolation would be difficult for me. I doubt anyone actively wishes to retire in Stoke.
This is a large world and I doubt I’ll be retiring to a single place.
I’ve decided I’m not retiring anywhere. Just travel til I drop. The whole retiring thing is like setting up an antechamber to death. No ta
Disagree. Been retired now for twenty years from a job I thoroughly enjoyed and we have taken the chance to travel, get involved in local affairs etc. it’s by no means as good now due to spinal problems but in spite of what I posted yesterday I’m still usually positive!
The UK will not rejoin the EU, because the EU wouldn't have us. The last thing they want is an awkward flip flopping member.
I'm not actually sure that's true. They always loved our money, and we'd undoubtedly be huge net contributors again if we were idiotic enough to rejoin. And they'd love the prestige boost of us admitting that we made a mistake. And of course they'd love the increase in power that 70 million people and more nuclear weapons would give them.
What they probably wouldn't do is enter into negotiations if they thought that the final deal would have to be approved by a referendum here, as it probably would be - they've always hated democracy.
I disagree.
We were awkward numbers when we were members. Why would you want to invite someone into the club who is going to cause you much hassle.
Also, it only takes one to veto. I can see why the Dutch or the Poles might want us in, but why would the French?
Why wouldn't the French especially?
It's not clear that the UK would be such a big net contributor - if the UK does much worse than the EU economically over the next 15 years then a hypothetically rejoining UK might not contribute so much net. If the UK doesn't do much worse then no real pressure to rejoin.
But was Britain such an awkward member? Greece has caused a lot bigger headaches for the euro. Hungary and Poland are bigger problems now if the EU wants to have shared democratic values.
I think it's pretty unlikely the UK will rejoin any time soon, but it's not completely implausible - unlike, say, Turkey joining.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
@Leon when have I ever said that I’m not returning to the UK? Indeed, the plan was to “do three years”.
I am alternately charmed and horrified by the US, albeit I have upstate New York for July so currently more charmed.
You’ve said several times you have no desire to return to our Brexity toilet and you are looking to retire somewhere like north Portugal etc
And your endless and relentless negativity about the UK does not speak of someone yearning to set up home in Sussex, Stoke or Stornaway
I don’t think I’ve ever said “I’ve no desire to return”, because that was never the plan.
Sussex is v nice in parts. I’ve never been to Stornaway but I suspect the isolation would be difficult for me. I doubt anyone actively wishes to retire in Stoke.
This is a large world and I doubt I’ll be retiring to a single place.
I’ve decided I’m not retiring anywhere. Just travel til I drop. The whole retiring thing is like setting up an antechamber to death. No ta
Ah, but, your job is like other peoples retirement - travel, drinking, posting rubbish on PB! You just get paid for it!
Brexit is estimated to have cost 5.5% of GDP so far (some think it a bit lower, some higher).
That really is a fuck-ton when you think about the state of the country’s finances and you wonder why Britain doesn’t seem to be able to afford anything anymore.
Re-entry into the Single Market, seems inevitable.
The problem is that Britain is now a significant rule-taker, and nothing short of Rejoin really fixes that. Brexit has resulted in an astonishing loss of meaningful sovereignty.
Hahahaha.
You are deluded if you think being a member of the EU made us anything other than a rule taker anyway. That is the whole point of QMV. We don't get to choose.
I accept your Brexit. You said it might be s*** but your perceived return of sovereignty is fair enough a reason to encourage a leave vote. I don't agree, but it is a good enough justification for me.
The ones that get my goat are those lying toerags like Johnson who sold Brexit as being an economic opportunity.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The southern parts of today's Poland were Austrian pre-1918. Cracow, west Galicia etc. They were NOT Prussian!
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The UK will not rejoin the EU, because the EU wouldn't have us. The last thing they want is an awkward flip flopping member.
I'm not actually sure that's true. They always loved our money, and we'd undoubtedly be huge net contributors again if we were idiotic enough to rejoin. And they'd love the prestige boost of us admitting that we made a mistake. And of course they'd love the increase in power that 70 million people and more nuclear weapons would give them.
What they probably wouldn't do is enter into negotiations if they thought that the final deal would have to be approved by a referendum here, as it probably would be - they've always hated democracy.
I disagree.
We were awkward numbers when we were members. Why would you want to invite someone into the club who is going to cause you much hassle.
Also, it only takes one to veto. I can see why the Dutch or the Poles might want us in, but why would the French?
Why wouldn't the French especially?
It's not clear that the UK would be such a big net contributor - if the UK does much worse than the EU economically over the next 15 years then a hypothetically rejoining UK might not contribute so much net. If the UK doesn't do much worse then no real pressure to rejoin.
But was Britain such an awkward member? Greece has caused a lot bigger headaches for the euro. Hungary and Poland are bigger problems now if the EU wants to have shared democratic values.
I think it's pretty unlikely the UK will rejoin any time soon, but it's not completely implausible - unlike, say, Turkey joining.
Why wouldn't the French? Because they don't like us.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
You never visited Coventry ?
Interestingly, I'm currently reading Stuart Maconie's "The Full English". His politics aside, I can find a lot to agree with Stuart Maconie on - but in his chapter on Coventry he makes the rather unusual claim that Coventry's post-ww2 rebuulding was done much better that Dresden's, because Dresden rebuilt all it's beautiful old buildings and Cov looked to the future. It's a bold opinion.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
When did you last go to the City? It’s one of the most magical urban environments in the world
Having lived there for several years, I agree the City is magical - but ferret mode is necessary.
I am not aware of too many places where wandering around and exploring reveals quite so much. I'm reminded of the tiny arcaded Fountain courtyard of St-Vedast-Alias-Foster (opposite St Pauls), where I wandered in one day and discovered an Epstein Relief of a former Canon, or the original Mansion House 9000 phone (where the Samaritans were founded by the Curate Chad Varah) in a display case in another city church.
My 2nd favorite spot in The City is The Monument.
Climbed to the top, and got a nice view south of the river. Sadly, other directions cluttered with modern brutalism (or close enough) that either blocked or fucked up the view.
Still have the certificate - framed - I was given after I climbed back down.
My #1 fave is Old Bailey. Which is (or at least was) a dump both outside and in. However, greatly enjoyed spectacle of Lord Archer on trial, in London's premier theatre!
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
Until the end of WWII, there were no uncontested borders - hence the title of Timothy Snyder’s history ‘Bloodlands’. The Polish intellectuals in exile after WWII realised that having their own nation back was considerably more important than arguing over historical claims.
Germany came to similar conclusions.
Putin, of course, is still in thrall to such delusions.
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
That looks like part of the nicer areas of Leeds.
Have you ever been to Leeds? The nicer areas of Leeds are lovely.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
How come Poundbury is bad and evil and pastiche yet this is noble and worthy and UNESCO-able?
What the photo doesn’t show is that the fairly run down shit begins two blocks from here and that’s even in the lovely restored area
I went to Poundbury about 15 years ago and it was disappointing. It just felt fake, and seemed to be a kind of dormitory for cars.
Otherwise, I agree.
I think Poundbury feels fake because we've been conditioned to believe modern architecture and urbanism has to look bland and functional. I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The southern parts of today's Poland were Austrian pre-1918. Cracow, west Galicia etc. They were NOT Prussian!
They’re a large slab of the region that everyone has some sort of historical claim to. It’s all bullshit.
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
It is worth noting that we were substantially outperforming the rest of the EU while we were members.
(Although I grant you that it is highly unlikely that we're anywhere near 5% behind where would be had Brexit not happened.)
The UK will not rejoin the EU, because the EU wouldn't have us. The last thing they want is an awkward flip flopping member.
I'm not actually sure that's true. They always loved our money, and we'd undoubtedly be huge net contributors again if we were idiotic enough to rejoin. And they'd love the prestige boost of us admitting that we made a mistake. And of course they'd love the increase in power that 70 million people and more nuclear weapons would give them.
What they probably wouldn't do is enter into negotiations if they thought that the final deal would have to be approved by a referendum here, as it probably would be - they've always hated democracy.
I disagree.
We were awkward numbers when we were members. Why would you want to invite someone into the club who is going to cause you much hassle.
Also, it only takes one to veto. I can see why the Dutch or the Poles might want us in, but why would the French?
Why wouldn't the French especially?
It's not clear that the UK would be such a big net contributor - if the UK does much worse than the EU economically over the next 15 years then a hypothetically rejoining UK might not contribute so much net. If the UK doesn't do much worse then no real pressure to rejoin.
But was Britain such an awkward member? Greece has caused a lot bigger headaches for the euro. Hungary and Poland are bigger problems now if the EU wants to have shared democratic values.
I think it's pretty unlikely the UK will rejoin any time soon, but it's not completely implausible - unlike, say, Turkey joining.
Why wouldn't the French? Because they don't like us.
This is impressive. The Old Town Square. Every single building is a fake. Rebuilt after 1945. Nonetheless it got UNESCO listed in 2011
The Germans knocked down virtually the whole city in 1944, so the Poles had to re-build from scratch.
At least the Poles did it properly instead of building brutalist concrete monstrosities. It certainly looks better than Coventry.
Can’t argue with that. I wish we’d had the same good sense as much of Eastern Europe. Which has rebuilt its towns exactly as they were
We built hideous crap
City of London being THE global poster child for crap architecture.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
You never visited Coventry ?
Interestingly, I'm currently reading Stuart Maconie's "The Full English". His politics aside, I can find a lot to agree with Stuart Maconie on - but in his chapter on Coventry he makes the rather unusual claim that Coventry's post-ww2 rebuulding was done much better that Dresden's, because Dresden rebuilt all it's beautiful old buildings and Cov looked to the future. It's a bold opinion.
If Coventry is the future, you can keep it. Sorry.
@Leon when have I ever said that I’m not returning to the UK? Indeed, the plan was to “do three years”.
I am alternately charmed and horrified by the US, albeit I have upstate New York for July so currently more charmed.
You’ve said several times you have no desire to return to our Brexity toilet and you are looking to retire somewhere like north Portugal etc
And your endless and relentless negativity about the UK does not speak of someone yearning to set up home in Sussex, Stoke or Stornaway
I don’t think I’ve ever said “I’ve no desire to return”, because that was never the plan.
Sussex is v nice in parts. I’ve never been to Stornaway but I suspect the isolation would be difficult for me. I doubt anyone actively wishes to retire in Stoke.
This is a large world and I doubt I’ll be retiring to a single place.
I’ve decided I’m not retiring anywhere. Just travel til I drop. The whole retiring thing is like setting up an antechamber to death. No ta
Disagree. Been retired now for twenty years from a job I thoroughly enjoyed and we have taken the chance to travel, get involved in local affairs etc. it’s by no means as good now due to spinal problems but in spite of what I posted yesterday I’m still usually positive!
Keep on giving 'em hell, OKC!
BTW, when you're feeling better, suggest you visit OKC = Oklahoma City.
Might be able to get a free drink or more based on your moniker! Also, one of the few places in the world where you can see working oil wells pumping away on the grounds of the local capitol building.
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
I assume GardenWalker's 5.5% is the doppelganger nonsense, but he doesn't actually specify. The doppelganger model which is built upon the UK's economy being most like the US's, and not much like Europe's. Followed by a huge American boom. Bingo, Britain "falls behind".
As you point out it's rather unlikely that, had we not left the EU, we would have grown markedly faster than any other major western european nation.
The IMF predict we will grow faster than all european G7 members in the next few years anyway:
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The southern parts of today's Poland were Austrian pre-1918. Cracow, west Galicia etc. They were NOT Prussian!
They’re a large slab of the region that everyone has some sort of historical claim to. It’s all bullshit.
But it is a historical fact that:
In 1914:
Prussia (or Germany if you prefer) had Pomerania, Silesia and east Prussia, plus Danzig Russia had the central bit around Warsaw Austria had Cracow and Galicia
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
It is worth noting that we were substantially outperforming the rest of the EU while we were members.
(Although I grant you that it is highly unlikely that we're anywhere near 5% behind where would be had Brexit not happened.)
Which is my point someone pulled the 5.5% figure out of their butt and now some people quote it like its gospel truth. Now yes maybe our gdp might be better if we had stayed in, maybe it wouldnt, maybe we would be more or less the same. Stating we have lost 5.5 % as a fact though is bollocks
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
I assume GardenWalker's 5.5% is the doppelganger nonsense, but he doesn't actually specify. The doppelganger model which is built upon the UK's economy being most like the US's, and not much like Europe's. Followed by a huge American boom. Bingo, Britain "falls behind".
As you point out it's rather unlikely that, had we not left the EU, we would have grown markedly faster than any other major western european nation.
The IMF predict we will grow faster than all european G7 members in the next few years anyway:
The biggest component of the IMF's forecast is working age population.
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
I assume GardenWalker's 5.5% is the doppelganger nonsense, but he doesn't actually specify. The doppelganger model which is built upon the UK's economy being most like the US's, and not much like Europe's. Followed by a huge American boom. Bingo, Britain "falls behind".
As you point out it's rather unlikely that, had we not left the EU, we would have grown markedly faster than any other major western european nation.
The IMF predict we will grow faster than all european G7 members in the next few years anyway:
The biggest component of the IMF's forecast is working age population.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
"almost all" isnt the same as "over half"?
But in support of Leon the Polish side of Usedom seemed noticeably scruffier and poorer than the German side when I visited 4 years ago, and that was definitely once Prussian!
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The southern parts of today's Poland were Austrian pre-1918. Cracow, west Galicia etc. They were NOT Prussian!
They’re a large slab of the region that everyone has some sort of historical claim to. It’s all bullshit.
But it is a historical fact that:
In 1914:
Prussia (or Germany if you prefer) had Pomerania, Silesia and east Prussia, plus Danzig Russia had the central bit around Warsaw Austria had Cracow and Galicia
(Worth saying that this is all about GDP. GDP per capita may be a different story, considering e.g Japan vs UK)
Gardenwalker was saying gdp would have been 5.5% higher so I used GDP figures. I am sorry but remainers have the audacity to do that but claim brexit was built on lies. Both campaigns lied through their teeth and if they had been pinocchios the tips of their noses would have become extra solar. However I couldn't let that claim stand as if it was truth which was how it was presented. Simple fact is with counterfactuals you dont know unless you can run a parallel earth with both outcomes and given we cant even get a relatively simple thing like hs2 or track and trace coming in time and on budget I don't want to give that task to the public sector
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The territory that Poland got in 1945/6 was a lot better than the territory it had to give up. Which did not stop both communists and nationalists (and most Polish communists were to a greater or lesser degree nationalists) being hugely unhappy, particularly as hundreds of thousands of Poles were deported from Western Ukraine.
Without the territorial gains to the West, Poland would have gone the same way as Yugoslavia, with its communist party breaking from Stalin.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The southern parts of today's Poland were Austrian pre-1918. Cracow, west Galicia etc. They were NOT Prussian!
They’re a large slab of the region that everyone has some sort of historical claim to. It’s all bullshit.
But it is a historical fact that:
In 1914:
Prussia (or Germany if you prefer) had Pomerania, Silesia and east Prussia, plus Danzig Russia had the central bit around Warsaw Austria had Cracow and Galicia
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
After the flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland, the largest of a series of flights and expulsions of Germans in Europe during and after World War II, over 1 million former citizens of Germany were naturalized and granted Polish citizenship. Some of them were forced to stay in Poland, while others wanted to stay because these territories were inhabited by their families for hundreds of years. The lowest estimate by West German Schieder commission of 1953, is that 910,000 former German citizens were granted Polish citizenship by 1950.[19] Higher estimates say that 1,043,550[20] or 1,165,000[21][22] were naturalized as Polish citizens by 1950.
However, the vast majority of those people were the so-called "autochthons" who were allowed to stay in post-war Poland after declaring Polish ethnicity in a special verification process.[23] Therefore, most of them were inhabitants of Polish descent of the pre-war border regions of Upper Silesia and Warmia-Masuria. Sometimes they were called Wasserpolnisch or Wasserpolak. Despite their ethnic background, they were allowed to reclaim their former German citizenship on application and under German Basic Law were "considered as not having been deprived of their German citizenship if they have established their domicile in Germany after May 8, 1945 and have not expressed a contrary intention."[24] Because of this fact many of them left the People's Republic of Poland due to its undemocratic political system and economic problems.[25]
It is estimated that, in the Cold War era, hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens decided to emigrate to West Germany and, to a lesser extent, to East Germany.[26][27][28] Despite that, hundreds or tens of thousands of former German citizens remained in Poland. Some of them created families with other Poles, who, in the vast majority, were settlers from central Poland or were resettled from the former eastern territories of Poland by the Soviets to the Recovered Territories (Former eastern territories of Germany).
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The southern parts of today's Poland were Austrian pre-1918. Cracow, west Galicia etc. They were NOT Prussian!
They’re a large slab of the region that everyone has some sort of historical claim to. It’s all bullshit.
But it is a historical fact that:
In 1914:
Prussia (or Germany if you prefer) had Pomerania, Silesia and east Prussia, plus Danzig Russia had the central bit around Warsaw Austria had Cracow and Galicia
None of those then polities now exist.
Russia and Germany still exist?
Not as they then were, no.
Old imperial claims count for less than nothing today.
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
Poland builds stuff and invests in future generations - which is how they've gone from GDP PP of $1700 in 1990 to $17000 in 2020.
We really shouldn't be defending the state of towns in Wales and the Midlands on the basis that they're not quite as poor as suburban Warsaw.
But I keep hearing this bullshit from Remoaners. “Oh because of Brexit we’re being overtaken by the Eastern European. Warsaw is richer than anywhere outside Mayfair. Slovenians are buying flats in Edinburgh to use as garden sheds”
Reality
What is this stuff about Remoaners? I voted Leave; my complaint is that our government is insisting on shooting the country in the foot through restrictive planning, while Poland has increased its GDP PP by 10x in thirty years. I think we should look at what they've done, which clearly works, instead of continuing our suicidal build-nothing policy. What exactly do you disagree with?
We can’t copy a country which began with a GDP per capita of $3000 or whatever. The situations are entirely different. They played catch up, assisted by the EU and the end of communism, and with a very poorly paid but quite well educated population. Good for them
Unless you are suggesting we build car factories where we can pay people £2 an hour to undercut France and Germany?
Communism kept a lot of places artifically poor.
Our planning restrictions keep a lot of places artificially poor! That's what happens when the government intervenes to kneecap industry!
Isn’t Warsaw meant to be “richer than most parts of the UK” or some such Remoaner nonsense?
It is palpably, visibly ridiculous
Half of it looks like Charleston, West Virginia; albeit much safer
Does it feel young and vibrant though?
I think you need to travel through the UK. After Warsaw, go to Hull or some such.
This is the capital city
I’m not a Polish expert. Maybe all the buzz happens in the ex-Prussian parts, and Cracow.
Almost all of modern Poland is 'ex-Prussian.' The Russians nicked the rest in 1945.
But there are no Prussians living there. They were expelled in 1946.
Pungent PB pundit alert!
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Over half of all modern Poland was part of Prussia before 1914. 130,000km2 that was Poland was seized by the Soviets (along with a small exclave of Prussia).
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The territory that Poland got in 1945/6 was a lot better than the territory it had to give up. Which did not stop both communists and nationalists (and most Polish communists were to a greater or lesser degree nationalists) being hugely unhappy, particularly as hundreds of thousands of Poles were deported from Western Ukraine.
Without the territorial gains to the West, Poland would have gone the same way as Yugoslavia, with its communist party breaking from Stalin.
I've met a few descendants of Poles from western Ukraine whose parents and grandparents were "transferred" to what's now western Poland. Hard transition for them.
Also know a guy (works for my landlord) who is an ethnic German immigrant, who was born and raised in post-WW2 Poland.
Comments
And your endless and relentless negativity about the UK does not speak of someone yearning to set up home in Sussex, Stoke or Stornaway
Anyone heard of the 79th New York (Scottish) Highlanders? They had sporrans and everything.
I agree they haven't got their treatment of cars right yet. I think the POW's second attempt outside Newquay is better in that regard.
And unlike your lot, many of us are pragmatists - something you cheerfully eschew.
The public spaces were (and maybe still are) dead.
Hopefully Newquay is better.
As I say above, your particular, badly-informed demographic (ie “leavers”) are now on the out, their moment of chaotic ineptitude is closing, and they wont be asked for their opinion while the rest of us get on and try to figure out what’s next.
Nonetheless, it’s not just pissing away money like Brexit.
Utterly squandered the opportunity for non-crap post-Blitz rebuilding.
Interesting comment FPT. I've edited out the anti-pensioner blurb.
The Leeds Metro is of interest; I don't understand why they have not done it. Metropolitan area transport systems where they have been created have been, imo, successes; I think that at some stage southern Nimby-towns will suddenly find they are 50 years out of date. We've done reservoirs vs reducing the excess 30% of water we use before. Fixing house prices is a matter of tax reform and political will, and no one has the courage to do much there - I don't expect anything from Starmer, but hope he will surprise. I'm not doing planning today.
I share the view of some others that the Conservatives need a decade in opposition to recover their soul after they (I hope) escape from Steptoe & Son politics.
At present, our latest fuckwit of a transport Minister, the Govt having declared that people flying from Newcastle (and eventually Edinburgh etc) will stay in the aeroplanes because HS2 was unaffordable, has in the last 14 days promised an equivalent sum to that saved to holes in the ground or bridges in the South (Stonehenge Tunnel, Silvertown Tunnel, East London River Crossing), having previously tipped huge amounts of HS2 money into holes in the ground to placate the Home Counties.
Underneath as a cause, I'm inclined to point to widespread institutional failure to deliver in practice.
A large example would be the Edinburgh Tram System, which is aiui headed for £1bn in costs. Currently many of the trams, with hundreds of people on board, in Leith Walk - a main Edinburgh shopping street, are being stopped and delayed by illegal parking, and there is neither the capability to inform the public of delays, nor the will to deal with the antisocial drivers. This has been going on for 2-3 years, now.
I have a photograph showing a delivery pantechnicon destroying the pavement one side, whilst a work crew are repairing smashed paving slabs the other side - presumably to be destroyed again tomorrow.
For a smaller English example, I'd point to pedestrianised Norwich, where the police spent their time forcing the pedestrians to the side to allow convoys of lawbreaking drivers to take their vehicles through the pedestrian street. I'd also point to the Chief Constable who refused to sort out dangerous parking at a school run because the parents abused his officers.
Meanwhile the Conservative Next Election Hail Mary Pass consumes tens of billions.
Sussex is v nice in parts. I’ve never been to Stornaway but I suspect the isolation would be difficult for me. I doubt anyone actively wishes to retire in Stoke.
This is a large world and I doubt I’ll be retiring to a single place.
Unfair. The City of London is a bewildering mix of brilliant and hideous. At its best it is an absolutely exhilarating mix of the old and new unmatched in the world. Recall that to the right of this photo is a 2000 year old Roman Wall and an entirely intact 1000 year old Norman fortress
As for your attempt to say that people who vote for the losing side in an election!should be ignored… well didn’t Obama say “there are no red states or blue states, only American states”?
Of course they will accept that (as seems likely) there will be a Labour-led government. That doesn’t mean they have no voice on individual policy issues. It just means that the government is likely to win most votes in parliament
@DavidL has spoken.
(Besides, we're down to the two rabbits and a ferret.)
You have been.
Well made Welsh cakes are absolutely gorgeous. Best eaten hot off the griddle.
Trying to preserve St Paul’s sight lines has meant the skyscrapers are massively clustered together with too much density. However one single super tall skyscraper in the middle would solve this and give the whole City a pleasing pyramidality. We just need to get rid of the stupid health and safety block on towers over 1000ft
Sciver-Brunt on 85, Glenn on 16
26 off that over as you say has made a big difference.
Edit - didn't realise it was at the Whateveritisthisweek Bowl as well. Three sixes in an over there is *very* impressive.
Going NW from Bucks to Oxon on the M40 is one if my favourite spots on the motorway network. The landscape opens up suddenly, and it feels like arriving in a brand new realm. And you sometimes get to see quite a lot of rare and magnificent birds.
No one else on the minibus seemed that excited.
Who seems utterly unbothered by it.
Half of Tory MPs say Brexit has been more of a success than failure
Con MPs
More success: 47%
More failure: 20%
Neither: 27%
All MPs
More success: 27%
More failure: 52%
Neither: 17%
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1679756616600543232
Units garbed - at the start of conflict anyway - in Highland style, were way outnumbered by those dressed in imitation of French North African Zouaves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zouave
My guess is that Zouave get-up being kinder to guys with bad knees than Caledonian fashion!
Pretty quickly most fancy uniforms were relegated to formal parades. Instead, soldiers would frequently place emblems on their caps (kepi) or hats (wide-brim slouch).
For example, customary for Irish regiments to sport "a sprig of green".
Another example was the black hats worn by the Union army's "Iron Brigade" which were a sight NOT welcomed by the Rebs on any battlefield. As in, "oh shit, it's them Black hat bastards again!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Brigade
We were awkward numbers when we were members. Why would you want to invite someone into the club who is going to cause you much hassle.
Also, it only takes one to veto. I can see why the Dutch or the Poles might want us in, but why would the French?
Didn't take it. Damn.
The last part of TSE's thread header is just plain wrong. Brexit is nothing like prohibition. Alcohol didn't change between 1920 and 1933 and most importantly most people didn't stop drinking it. As a result it was a simple process to revoke it.
The EU (unlike alcohol) is ever evolving and usually in ways that will not appeal to voters when they are faced with the new reality. Moreover, the actual process of reversing Brexit will be even more complex, divisive and costly than either originally joining or leaving. Most politicians for decades to come are going to look at it and go 'no thanks'.
So what will we rejoin in 20 or 30 years if we are asked the question? Who knows. Certainly none of the rejoiners advocating a reversal now and indeed none of the Brexiteers either.
What I do think (hope) will happen is that we will join the EEA via EFTA. Once we do that a huge amount of the pressure to rejoin the EU will disappear.
I am not aware of too many places where wandering around and exploring reveals quite so much. I'm reminded of the tiny arcaded Fountain courtyard of St-Vedast-Alias-Foster (opposite St Pauls), where I wandered in one day and discovered an Epstein Relief of a former Canon, or the original Mansion House 9000 phone (where the Samaritans were founded by the Curate Chad Varah) in a display case in another city church.
The quantity and variety of Leon’s alcoholic intake is a source of constant wonder.
A part of this is the ding dong struggle between the City and Canary Wharf for office quality and price - not forgetting amenities like shops and pubs.
You are deluded if you think being a member of the EU made us anything other than a rule taker anyway. That is the whole point of QMV. We don't get to choose.
https://bakingwithgranny.co.uk/recipe/bara-brith/
Both these assertions are NOT really correct:
> while Soviets did "nick" much of pre-WWI Russian Poland (absorbed by Belorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR) note that USSR did NOT annex Warsaw and other major areas that were under the Czar in 1914.
> as for the rest of today's Poland, "almost all" was NOT Prussian and part of German Empire, for example Cracow and western Galicia.
> and re: "no Prussians living" in 3rd-millennium Poland, well there aren't many ethnic Germans but also NOT zero; the 2011 census the German minority = 148k.
it’s by no means as good now due to spinal problems but in spite of what I posted yesterday I’m still usually positive!
It's not clear that the UK would be such a big net contributor - if the UK does much worse than the EU economically over the next 15 years then a hypothetically rejoining UK might not contribute so much net. If the UK doesn't do much worse then no real pressure to rejoin.
But was Britain such an awkward member? Greece has caused a lot bigger headaches for the euro. Hungary and Poland are bigger problems now if the EU wants to have shared democratic values.
I think it's pretty unlikely the UK will rejoin any time soon, but it's not completely implausible - unlike, say, Turkey joining.
Also, the 148,000 Germans will almost all have come after Poland joined the EU. The expulsion in the 1940s was thorough. So there would be no 'Prussians' left.
The ones that get my goat are those lying toerags like Johnson who sold Brexit as being an economic opportunity.
Climbed to the top, and got a nice view south of the river. Sadly, other directions cluttered with modern brutalism (or close enough) that either blocked or fucked up the view.
Still have the certificate - framed - I was given after I climbed back down.
My #1 fave is Old Bailey. Which is (or at least was) a dump both outside and in. However, greatly enjoyed spectacle of Lord Archer on trial, in London's premier theatre!
The Polish intellectuals in exile after WWII realised that having their own nation back was considerably more important than arguing over historical claims.
Germany came to similar conclusions.
Putin, of course, is still in thrall to such delusions.
EU GDP 2019 2020 2021 2022
15692 15370 17187 16641
% 0% -2% +11.8% -3%
source https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp#:~:text=GDP in European Union averaged,503.70 USD Billion in 1966.
uk gdp 2019 2020 2021 2022
2857 2703 3122 3070
% 0% -5.5% +15.5% -1.7%
source https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp#:~:text=GDP in the United Kingdom,73.23 USD Billion in 1960.
Total change since 2019
EU +6%
UK +7.4%
Before spouting shit about this supposed loss of 5.5% gdp please explain why the UK should have grown by 7.4%+the mythical 5.5% when the eu didn't even manage 7.4%
The 5.5% is a made up counter factual no one can prove spouted by remainers to make them feel like they were right.
I used actual figures included the sources not a number that some shit for brains economist plucked out of thin air and remainers jumped on
2-2 in sets now!
5th and decisive set incoming!
(Although I grant you that it is highly unlikely that we're anywhere near 5% behind where would be had Brexit not happened.)
BTW, when you're feeling better, suggest you visit OKC = Oklahoma City.
Might be able to get a free drink or more based on your moniker! Also, one of the few places in the world where you can see working oil wells pumping away on the grounds of the local capitol building.
https://midwestwanderer.com/oklahoma-state-capitol/
A YouTube "expert" derides OK capitol building for this; methinks he's full of something other than prime crude.
As you point out it's rather unlikely that, had we not left the EU, we would have grown markedly faster than any other major western european nation.
The IMF predict we will grow faster than all european G7 members in the next few years anyway:
In 1914:
Prussia (or Germany if you prefer) had Pomerania, Silesia and east Prussia, plus Danzig
Russia had the central bit around Warsaw
Austria had Cracow and Galicia
Though I notice my IPad autocorrects to Stornaway.
When I were a lad there was a thing for made up silly/amusing book titles and their authors, one of which was Nail in the Bannister by R S Stornoway.
[ducks]
Without the territorial gains to the West, Poland would have gone the same way as Yugoslavia, with its communist party breaking from Stalin.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Imperial-Partition-of-Poland-1815-1914-This-map-is-partly-based-on-the-following-source_fig1_361137779
And this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_minority_in_Poland
After the flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland, the largest of a series of flights and expulsions of Germans in Europe during and after World War II, over 1 million former citizens of Germany were naturalized and granted Polish citizenship. Some of them were forced to stay in Poland, while others wanted to stay because these territories were inhabited by their families for hundreds of years. The lowest estimate by West German Schieder commission of 1953, is that 910,000 former German citizens were granted Polish citizenship by 1950.[19] Higher estimates say that 1,043,550[20] or 1,165,000[21][22] were naturalized as Polish citizens by 1950.
However, the vast majority of those people were the so-called "autochthons" who were allowed to stay in post-war Poland after declaring Polish ethnicity in a special verification process.[23] Therefore, most of them were inhabitants of Polish descent of the pre-war border regions of Upper Silesia and Warmia-Masuria. Sometimes they were called Wasserpolnisch or Wasserpolak. Despite their ethnic background, they were allowed to reclaim their former German citizenship on application and under German Basic Law were "considered as not having been deprived of their German citizenship if they have established their domicile in Germany after May 8, 1945 and have not expressed a contrary intention."[24] Because of this fact many of them left the People's Republic of Poland due to its undemocratic political system and economic problems.[25]
It is estimated that, in the Cold War era, hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens decided to emigrate to West Germany and, to a lesser extent, to East Germany.[26][27][28] Despite that, hundreds or tens of thousands of former German citizens remained in Poland. Some of them created families with other Poles, who, in the vast majority, were settlers from central Poland or were resettled from the former eastern territories of Poland by the Soviets to the Recovered Territories (Former eastern territories of Germany).
Old imperial claims count for less than nothing today.
Not something that can be exported, though, thje experience of eating fresh ones from the bakery at Crucywel when walking along the Brecon Canal.
Also know a guy (works for my landlord) who is an ethnic German immigrant, who was born and raised in post-WW2 Poland.