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Is it any wonder the Nadine peerage move has been stalled? – politicalbetting.com

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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    edited June 2023
    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Update: The Russian internet seems to be being taken offline, lots of disruptions.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,636
    edited June 2023

    dixiedean said:

    This is not good.

    You ran out of popcorn?
    Luckily we have lots of chocolate cake stored in the freezer.
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    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Update: The Russian internet seems to be being taken offline, lots of disruptions.

    If he comes out of hiding and speaks, please let it be like Ceausescu.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited June 2023
    One of Nostradamus's predictions for this time is that "a large country will break up".

    That wouldn't necessarily be a good thing, in the case of Russia, as many of us have been warning.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,636
    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,994

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    The Russians have way more faith in the British than we do in ourselves.

    Markov, Russian propagandist, calls the events of tonight "provocations of British intelligence.

    His post is translated below:

    "For the time being, I suggest to all reasonable people at work that the the Main Directorate of Intelligence of the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine or the Security Service of Ukraine or even the damned British intelligence attacked the Wagner PMC camps in order to provoke a conflict between the leadership of the Wagner PMC and the leadership of the Russian Ministry of Defense. And they succeeded. This caused an emotional reaction from the combat commanders of the PMC Wagner, who had recently withdrawn from the fighting. British intelligence provocations will not work!
    "
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672326507442700290?cxt=HHwWhIC8iaSGprUuAAAA

    Their opinion of our diabolical brilliance really is quite remarkable. If only we could turn our fiendish plotting grey matter to getting inflation below 10%.
    It’s all part of Rishi’s clever plan Lucky. Don’t be despondent- we are selling our amazing services for billions after this free advert which will allow for ginormous tax cuts before the election.
    No need for anything clever, the government is planning to fund ginormous tax cuts the usual way. Tomorrow's Times front page;



    The obvious downsides (the strikes will continue and there simply won't be enough bodies to keep services going because why would you sign up to work in the public sector at these rates) are as obvious as ever, but the government seems keen to continue ignoring them.

    But considering overruling the pay review bodies... Brave, Prime Minister. Very brave.
    You'd sign up because you care. You don't need food. You don't need a reliable roof over your head. You're part of The Big Society. Aren't you?

    You die young in the service of your nation. Daily Mail readers commend you for it. In their own way. As long as you are attractive and set up an onlyfans. JRM serves you 'Work From Office' memos while in his morning suit as he leans back in a green leather bench and demands modernisation in the public sector.

    And if you don't - you're basically a small-boat Frenchie people smuggler hell bent on stealing their buy-to-let income by betraying brexit.

    Commie.
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    WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    Cicero said:

    Looks like Russia may declare a state of emergency. The Army has failed to stop Wagner entering Russia, and they seem to be in at least three separate groups: One to Rostov, one to Moscow and one to Belgorod.

    One of those is the odd man out.
    Prigozhin needs friends.
    Failing that, he needs a nuclear power station or leverage over one. Ain't going to happen.

    Ukrinform are just getting the story from TASS about the FSB wanting Prigozhin's arse on a plate:

    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3727018-russias-fsb-opens-criminal-case-against-wagner-groups-prigozhin-over-armed-rebellion-call.html
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,223
    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,288

    Could this be the coup? OMG.

    Well, we're currently at Istanbul 2016 on the threat scale. More than USA 2021 but less than Egypt 2013.
    I would say we're not quite at Istanbul 2016 yet... Then you F16s flying over the capital, and you had the President away from the capital pleading for people to come into the streets and to fight the coup.

    Here, we don't (yet) have evidence that it's reached that stage. Yes, the Wagner group is revolting. And yes, Russia's armed forced are stretched thin. But fighting your fellow countryman to put another man in the President's chair... I don't think we're quite there yet.

    That may change in the morning. If there really are three columns of Wagner troops heading into Russia, and if a Divisional Commander or two decides that the grass may be greener on the Prizoghin side of the fence, then it could all change extremely quickly.

    But for now, it's not yet 2016 in Turkey.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130
    We and Ukraine are not lucky enough to see thousands of Russian troops go at it with thousands of Russian mercenaries. But it is a nice thought.
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    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Yes I've just been looking myself. The fact that it is Friday evening probably doesn't help as the all senior people will be out of the office.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130
    Or they are just in the same place, or the decorating is standard.

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    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,267
    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044

    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
    Ah have you also backed Putin to win the next Russian election at even money ?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,199
    edited June 2023
    [deleted: could be misinterpreted]
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    carnforth said:

    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?

    He needs to make himself Emperor to qualify.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130
    carnforth said:

    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?

    St Helena has an airport now, it is not remote enough.

    Tristan da Cunha instead.

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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited June 2023
    The Russian News Agency, TASS, claims that Progozhin's statement "is equivalent to a call for a start of an armed conflict on Russian territory, and that he must refrain from such actions".

    Hmm. This doesn't altogether look too good, I think.
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    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,267
    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?

    St Helena has an airport now, it is not remote enough.

    Tristan da Cunha instead.

    Excellent. Put him to work on the potato patches:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_Patches
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130

    The Russian News Agency, TASS, claims that Progozhin's statement "is equivalent to a call for a start of an armed conflict on Russian territory, and that he must refrain from such actions".

    hmm.

    Oh sure, when shit is happening in their own back yard they finally dial back the apocalyptic hyperbolic descriptions of everything.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,636
    If Wagner are on the move into Rostov, it's possible that they are heading towards Morozovsk, if there's still a nuclear weapons depot there, as there was in 2017.

    https://russianforces.org/blog/2017/08/where_the_weapons_are.shtml

    Two-and-a-half hours drive from where Wagner were reported to have crossed the border from Ukraine.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    carnforth said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?

    St Helena has an airport now, it is not remote enough.

    Tristan da Cunha instead.

    Excellent. Put him to work on the potato patches:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_Patches
    Am I the only pb-er to have been to the potato patches of Tristan da Cunha?
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,071
    The 'expert' consensus at the moment seems to be that this attempt by Prigozin is doomed.

    The issue is how much damage/chaos he might cause in the meantime.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193

    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Yes I've just been looking myself. The fact that it is Friday evening probably doesn't help as the all senior people will be out of the office.
    And all the news people will have blagged a gig to Glasto.

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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,470
    edited June 2023
    ...
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    boulay said:

    viewcode said:

    For all those of you who want to watch Sparks at Glasto, it was on the park stage, timecode 9:15-10;15pm, and the iPlayer link is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0ft9nxk/glastonbury-park-stage-friday

    I think everyone here are waiting for Sparks in Mosko.
    Marx and Sparks?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,288

    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
    You are probably correct.

    However, things can move very quickly. Russian conscripts may decide that fighting Putin is lower risk than being sent to Ukraine. It's also possible that tomorrow will see Russians out on the streets protesting against the war and their current government. Finally, we don't know how much of Russia's internal security apparatus remains available: simply, the war will have had an impact on its effectiveness.

    Right now, I'd say there's a 20-25% chance of the coup succeeding. (Or perhaps more accurately, of Putin falling.) Tomorrow, it may look more like 0%, if the streets of Moscow are filled with Russian army troops and Prigozhin is in custody.

    But it may also be that tomorrow opens to massive street demonstrations, and Russian regular army battalions refusing to fire on protestors and Prihozhin's columns moving towards Moscow. In which case things could get very interesting very quickly.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?

    St Helena has an airport now, it is not remote enough.

    Tristan da Cunha instead.

    Easter Island?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,199

    boulay said:

    viewcode said:

    For all those of you who want to watch Sparks at Glasto, it was on the park stage, timecode 9:15-10;15pm, and the iPlayer link is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0ft9nxk/glastonbury-park-stage-friday

    I think everyone here are waiting for Sparks in Mosko.
    Marx and Sparks?
    That town ain't big enough for the both of them
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    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Yes I've just been looking myself. The fact that it is Friday evening probably doesn't help as the all senior people will be out of the office.
    It's the headline item on BBC News.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953
    edited June 2023
    Boris's latest Mail column (discussing the Titan disaster) is absolutely wonderfully written:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    My take: Brexit is like the descent into the depths of the Atlantic... Possibly foolish but brave and ultimately could be a huge benefit to humanity...

    And Boris = Stockton Rush (a ground-breaking explorer who dared to push the envelope to see what could be achieved by humanity but was ultimately destroyed by his bravery - Or his foolishness)

    Am I on to something? Or am I off on a tangent?
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,176
    rcs1000 said:

    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
    You are probably correct.

    However, things can move very quickly. Russian conscripts may decide that fighting Putin is lower risk than being sent to Ukraine. It's also possible that tomorrow will see Russians out on the streets protesting against the war and their current government. Finally, we don't know how much of Russia's internal security apparatus remains available: simply, the war will have had an impact on its effectiveness.

    Right now, I'd say there's a 20-25% chance of the coup succeeding. (Or perhaps more accurately, of Putin falling.) Tomorrow, it may look more like 0%, if the streets of Moscow are filled with Russian army troops and Prigozhin is in custody.

    But it may also be that tomorrow opens to massive street demonstrations, and Russian regular army battalions refusing to fire on protestors and Prihozhin's columns moving towards Moscow. In which case things could get very interesting very quickly.
    Let us hope the spirit of Novgorod can triumph over the spirit of Muscovy. I hope both Prighozin and Putin get served their deserved justice.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    Prigrozhin in Rostov. Shoigu was there a day ago.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,872
    A
    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
    You are probably correct.

    However, things can move very quickly. Russian conscripts may decide that fighting Putin is lower risk than being sent to Ukraine. It's also possible that tomorrow will see Russians out on the streets protesting against the war and their current government. Finally, we don't know how much of Russia's internal security apparatus remains available: simply, the war will have had an impact on its effectiveness.

    Right now, I'd say there's a 20-25% chance of the coup succeeding. (Or perhaps more accurately, of Putin falling.) Tomorrow, it may look more like 0%, if the streets of Moscow are filled with Russian army troops and Prigozhin is in custody.

    But it may also be that tomorrow opens to massive street demonstrations, and Russian regular army battalions refusing to fire on protestors and Prihozhin's columns moving towards Moscow. In which case things could get very interesting very quickly.
    Let us hope the spirit of Novgorod can triumph over the spirit of Muscovy. I hope both Prighozin and Putin get served their deserved justice.

    The latest news which Vladimir Brusiloff had had from Russia had been particularly cheering. Three of his principal creditors had perished in the last massacre of the bourgeoisie, and a man whom he owed for five years for a samovar and a pair of overshoes had fled the country, and had not been heard of since. It was not bad news from home that was depressing Vladimir. What was wrong with him was the fact that this was the eighty-second suburban literary reception he had been compelled to attend since he had landed in the country on his lecturing tour, and he was sick to death of it. When his agent had first suggested the trip, he had signed on the dotted line without an instant's hesitation. Worked out in roubles, the fees offered had seemed just about right. But now, as he peered through the brushwood at the faces round him, and realized that eight out of ten of those present had manuscripts of some sort concealed on their persons, and were only waiting for an opportunity to whip them out and start reading, he wished that he had stayed at his quiet home in Nijni-Novgorod, where the worst thing that could happen to a fellow was a brace of bombs coming in through the window and mixing themselves up with his breakfast egg.


    and


    "Let me tell you one vairy funny story about putting. It was one day I play at Nijni-Novgorod with the pro. against Lenin and Trotsky, and Trotsky had a two-inch putt for the hole. But, just as he addresses the ball, someone in the crowd he tries to assassinate Lenin with a rewolwer—you know that is our great national sport, trying to assassinate Lenin with rewolwers—and the bang puts Trotsky off his stroke and he goes five yards past the hole, and then Lenin, who is rather shaken, you understand, he misses again himself, and we win the hole and match and I clean up three hundred and ninety-six thousand roubles, or fifteen shillings in your money. Some gameovitch!"

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130

    The 'expert' consensus at the moment seems to be that this attempt by Prigozin is doomed.

    The issue is how much damage/chaos he might cause in the meantime.

    Isn't he utterly dependent on the military for logistics? He spent months moaning about that.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
    You are probably correct.

    However, things can move very quickly. Russian conscripts may decide that fighting Putin is lower risk than being sent to Ukraine. It's also possible that tomorrow will see Russians out on the streets protesting against the war and their current government. Finally, we don't know how much of Russia's internal security apparatus remains available: simply, the war will have had an impact on its effectiveness.

    Right now, I'd say there's a 20-25% chance of the coup succeeding. (Or perhaps more accurately, of Putin falling.) Tomorrow, it may look more like 0%, if the streets of Moscow are filled with Russian army troops and Prigozhin is in custody.

    But it may also be that tomorrow opens to massive street demonstrations, and Russian regular army battalions refusing to fire on protestors and Prihozhin's columns moving towards Moscow. In which case things could get very interesting very quickly.
    Let us hope the spirit of Novgorod can triumph over the spirit of Muscovy. I hope both Prighozin and Putin get served their deserved justice.
    It's more like Yagoda versus Yezhov
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,636
    rcs1000 said:

    Cicero said:

    Unless Putin comes out of hiding and speaks, then he may not be able to survive this. Russian social media is in meltdown.

    Putin is secure enough that he doesn't need to confront this directly - his subordinates can handle it (I think). It's notable that nobody outside of Wagner has declared support, or sympathy, for Prigozhin and Wagner. The state apparatus has rallied around the status quo.

    Prigozhin is going to be crushed. The only doubt in my mind is the number of Wagner fighters who will be willing to fight for him to the end.

    But, well, I may be completely wrong.
    You are probably correct.

    However, things can move very quickly. Russian conscripts may decide that fighting Putin is lower risk than being sent to Ukraine. It's also possible that tomorrow will see Russians out on the streets protesting against the war and their current government. Finally, we don't know how much of Russia's internal security apparatus remains available: simply, the war will have had an impact on its effectiveness.

    Right now, I'd say there's a 20-25% chance of the coup succeeding. (Or perhaps more accurately, of Putin falling.) Tomorrow, it may look more like 0%, if the streets of Moscow are filled with Russian army troops and Prigozhin is in custody.

    But it may also be that tomorrow opens to massive street demonstrations, and Russian regular army battalions refusing to fire on protestors and Prihozhin's columns moving towards Moscow. In which case things could get very interesting very quickly.
    Yes, there are various positive scenarios you can imagine for Wagner. A few dozen Russians caused a lot of trouble in Belgorod. If Prigozhin does have 25,000 willing to follow him that could be enough to take a whole Oblast, and then what? Prigozhin would end up blocking the Russian supply routes into Crimea.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    ZSU reports a breakthrough in Bakhmut.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,071
    Must go to bed.

    See you all in the morning (hopefully).
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    Prigozhin has reported that his troops have entered Russia...
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,199
    edited June 2023
    "That Time a Guy Tried to Build a Utopia for Mice and it all Went to Hell"
    Today I Found Out, YouTube, Dec28 2018. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7X-1V9nOs

    Scientist tries to build real-life mouse utopias. One of them went horribly wrong.

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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,636
    kle4 said:

    The 'expert' consensus at the moment seems to be that this attempt by Prigozin is doomed.

    The issue is how much damage/chaos he might cause in the meantime.

    Isn't he utterly dependent on the military for logistics? He spent months moaning about that.
    Well, yes, but presumably he's heading towards a number of logistics hubs in Rostov oblast. Places Ukraine have promised not to hit with Storm Shadow.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,182
    GIN1138 said:

    Boris's latest Mail column (discussing the Titan disaster) is absolutely wonderfully written:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    My take: Brexit is like the descent into the depths of the Atlantic... Possibly foolish but brave and ultimately could be a huge benefit to humanity...

    And Boris = Stockton Rush (a ground-breaking explorer who dared to push the envelope to see what could be achieved by humanity but was ultimately destroyed by his bravery - Or his foolishness)

    Am I on to something? Or am I off on a tangent?

    Maybe Boris should have been a full-time writer instead of a politician.
  • Options
    This will go one of two ways

    Total fizzle out over next few hours a Prigozhin will be banished to the Gulag

    Or

    Absolute carnage, power vacuum, infighting, which doesn't necessarily mean good news for Ukraine, as sometimes the Despot you know is better than the Despot you don't.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322

    This will go one of two ways

    Total fizzle out over next few hours a Prigozhin will be banished to the Gulag

    Or

    Absolute carnage, power vacuum, infighting, which doesn't necessarily mean good news for Ukraine, as sometimes the Despot you know is better than the Despot you don't.

    There is already a power vacuum. If Prigrozhin is still at large and alive on Monday we are into a new political reality. Meanwhile Ukraine will clear the battlefield.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,288

    This will go one of two ways

    Total fizzle out over next few hours a Prigozhin will be banished to the Gulag

    Or

    Absolute carnage, power vacuum, infighting, which doesn't necessarily mean good news for Ukraine, as sometimes the Despot you know is better than the Despot you don't.

    I think whatever happens is likely to be good news for Ukraine in the short-term, because Russians fighting Russians means fewer Russians to fight Ukrainians.

    The question is whether - assuming Prigozhin prevails - he will continue to fight in Ukraine. And we don't know the answer to that.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    GIN1138 said:

    Boris's latest Mail column (discussing the Titan disaster) is absolutely wonderfully written:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    My take: Brexit is like the descent into the depths of the Atlantic... Possibly foolish but brave and ultimately could be a huge benefit to humanity...

    And Boris = Stockton Rush (a ground-breaking explorer who dared to push the envelope to see what could be achieved by humanity but was ultimately destroyed by his bravery - Or his foolishness)

    Am I on to something? Or am I off on a tangent?

    Torn to shreds below the line.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,872
    A
    rcs1000 said:

    This will go one of two ways

    Total fizzle out over next few hours a Prigozhin will be banished to the Gulag

    Or

    Absolute carnage, power vacuum, infighting, which doesn't necessarily mean good news for Ukraine, as sometimes the Despot you know is better than the Despot you don't.

    I think whatever happens is likely to be good news for Ukraine in the short-term, because Russians fighting Russians means fewer Russians to fight Ukrainians.

    The question is whether - assuming Prigozhin prevails - he will continue to fight in Ukraine. And we don't know the answer to that.
    Oh, it is quite clear he will fight in Ukraine. But against whom?
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    Cicero said:

    ZSU reports a breakthrough in Bakhmut.

    Wagner feint and they finally made a breakthrough?
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    rcs1000 said:

    This will go one of two ways

    Total fizzle out over next few hours a Prigozhin will be banished to the Gulag

    Or

    Absolute carnage, power vacuum, infighting, which doesn't necessarily mean good news for Ukraine, as sometimes the Despot you know is better than the Despot you don't.

    I think whatever happens is likely to be good news for Ukraine in the short-term, because Russians fighting Russians means fewer Russians to fight Ukrainians.

    The question is whether - assuming Prigozhin prevails - he will continue to fight in Ukraine. And we don't know the answer to that.
    Even if he takes power, itself unlikely, he won't get to keep it.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Do you think we could persuade the french to put Putin up at Longwood House for the remainder of his natural?

    St Helena has an airport now, it is not remote enough.

    Tristan da Cunha instead.

    A few miles from Tristan is Inaccessible Island....
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    WestieWestie Posts: 426
    Is Yevgeny Prigozhin related to complexity theorist and Nobel laureate, the chemist Ilya Prigogine? It's the same surname, Francified for the chemist, who was Belgian.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,182
    I don't understand anything about this Wagner Group. Did Russia think they could control them?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't understand anything about this Wagner Group. Did Russia think they could control them?

    Big fan of the helicopter scene in Apocalypse Now.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Westie said:

    Is Yevgeny Prigozhin related to complexity theorist and Nobel laureate, the chemist Ilya Prigogine? It's the same surname, Francified for the chemist, who was Belgian.

    Yeah... not really.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,182
    Listening to BBC World Service radio for the first time in ages.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,199
    Andy_JS said:

    Listening to BBC World Service radio for the first time in ages.

    If it's not on, @TridentSubCommander will post something other than "Test"... :o
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,182
    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,629
    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Yes, they were indeed on 24% last week.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,199
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Listening to BBC World Service radio for the first time in ages.

    If it's not on, @TridentSubCommander will post something other than "Test"... :o
    In case a nuclear war does break out over the next few days, this may be helpful

    https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/resource-uk-nuclear-weapon-release-protocol.379292/
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    Putin reportedly safe as windows in the Kremlin are sealed shut!
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,750
    felix said:

    Putin reportedly safe as windows in the Kremlin are sealed shut!

    Seriously doubt Putin has occupied ANY room with a window in MANY years. And NOT good time to start!
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,182
    felix said:

    Putin reportedly safe as windows in the Kremlin are sealed shut!

    He probably isn't anywhere near the Kremlin.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    Prigrozhin seems to have little green men in Rostov on Don. Leaving aside the irony, if the high command don't get this shut down in the next 48 hours, then they will have to roll the dice and take two cards from the "civil war" pile.

    This is a major city, it would be like having rebels take over Sheffield. It is also a critical logistics centre for the Russian forces in Ukraine. If the High Command can't get it back inside a week, then they will need to take a lot more cards from the "defeat" pile.

    I think that Russia may just have run out of road in one of the most brutal, disgusting, and simply moronic wars in their often brutal and disgusting history.

    Happy St. John's day!
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    Westie said:

    Is Yevgeny Prigozhin related to complexity theorist and Nobel laureate, the chemist Ilya Prigogine? It's the same surname, Francified for the chemist, who was Belgian.

    He is a jailbird who did time for robbing and raping elderly women. As a human being he is one of the few who matches the moral depravity of Putin or Surovkin.

    Yes, not much sleep for many people on this side of Europe. Every hour this continues brings Russian defeat and collapse closer. After 20 years living in a growing atmosphere of fear, the hope is something all of us find slightly intoxicating.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,033
    Good morning, everyone.

    Quite surprised by this Russian turn, given the Ukrainian counter-offensive was reportedly slower than expected.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    Good morning, everyone.

    Quite surprised by this Russian turn, given the Ukrainian counter-offensive was reportedly slower than expected.

    I’d heard news a couple of days ago from an informed source that implied events were seriously shifting in Ukraines favour. This might just be the start.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    More videos confirming Wagner control in centre of Rostov. Putindammerung incoming.
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,803
    https://inews.co.uk/news/gove-slams-housebuilders-hoarding-almost-a-million-plots-of-land-as-completely-unacceptable-2432202

    @BartholomewRoberts
    Just a tabloid investigation but it seems like there are a million plots of unbuilt planning permissions being horded by developers. Perhaps the failure to deliver housing is not entirely the fault of the planning system and land regulation and something more to do with the economics of housebuilding?
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,151
    felix said:

    Putin reportedly safe as windows in the Kremlin are sealed shut!

    No doubt someone is now at work extending the length of his table to about half a mile.
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    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,803
    Cicero said:

    Prigrozhin seems to have little green men in Rostov on Don. Leaving aside the irony, if the high command don't get this shut down in the next 48 hours, then they will have to roll the dice and take two cards from the "civil war" pile.

    This is a major city, it would be like having rebels take over Sheffield. It is also a critical logistics centre for the Russian forces in Ukraine. If the High Command can't get it back inside a week, then they will need to take a lot more cards from the "defeat" pile.

    I think that Russia may just have run out of road in one of the most brutal, disgusting, and simply moronic wars in their often brutal and disgusting history.

    Happy St. John's day!

    I guess we will now see how strong and stable Putin's regime actually is.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,223
    I see Dan Hodges was not impressed with the TV news last night:

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1672372389991137281

    Naturally, some took the opportunity to say that it proves the BBC needs more funding.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,012
    edited June 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
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    SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 604
    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Switched on BBC news to find out what's happening in Russia only to get wall-to-wall Glastonbury.
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    Putin expected to make a TV address in 15 minutes.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,012
    SandraMc said:

    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Switched on BBC news to find out what's happening in Russia only to get wall-to-wall Glastonbury.
    It's something like this:

    https://youtu.be/P4kQvkvGi9M
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,012
    edited June 2023
    SandraMc said:

    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Switched on BBC news to find out what's happening in Russia only to get wall-to-wall Glastonbury.
    To be fair, not any western journalists to report from Russia any more.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,071
    Putin apparently due to speak sometime around now. Definitely something going on.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,929
    SandraMc said:

    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Switched on BBC news to find out what's happening in Russia only to get wall-to-wall Glastonbury.
    BBC and other reputable news channels will always be slower than Twitter/social media because they take the trouble to check the information.

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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,466
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
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    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,322
    Rumours swirling about Putin. Still no address.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,574
    Cicero said:

    Rumours swirling about Putin. Still no address.

    It’s like watching a scorpion wrestling with an adder.

    You know somebody is going to get fatally stung. You hope it’s both of them.

    You just worry in case the winner suddenly turns on the watchers.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,012

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Cicero said:

    Rumours swirling about Putin. Still no address.

    Broadcasting from his redoubt in Mar-a-lago?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 45,012
    Foxy said:
    Shot down a Russian helicopter..

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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,636
    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,071

    Seems like I was wrong about Prigozhin's chances. He's taken Rostov-on-Don without much [if any] resistance. Although apparently Russia is minus two helicopters now: https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672483967033909248

    Which troops can Putin rely on to fight for him against Wagner?

    If they would like to dispose of a few more Russian helicopters, that would be fantastic.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,209
    SandraMc said:

    tlg86 said:

    Remarkable how little attention this news from Russia is receiving on the news channels.

    Switched on BBC news to find out what's happening in Russia only to get wall-to-wall Glastonbury.
    Well it beats Swan Lake.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,695
    edited June 2023

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
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    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,039
    Astonishing news to wake up to.

    Prigozhin and the Russian establishment behaving like the gangsters they patently are. Hundreds of thousands have died; millions displaced; many billions spent, land and towns despoiled and ruined - all in the service of these scumbags and their egos and power trips.

    Few countries have been so badly led for so long. I don’t hold out much hope - I understand the yearning for positive news, but this development ups stakes further.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,243
    What’s Kadyrov doing?

    And now is the time for the Belarussian opposition to get out on the streets.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,695
    Cicero said:

    Rumours swirling about Putin. Still no address.

    If you put "The Camp Psycho, Russia" on the envelope, I'm sure it will get to the right place.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,209
    The jet of Lukashenka's family landed in Turkey. The plane is often used by Viktar and Dzmitry, Lukashenka's sons.
    https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1672482690451251201
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    Being reported that Wagner forces entered Voronezh without a fight.

    Moscow by teatime...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,209
    I know it’s impossible for a sane mind to try and understand it, but yeah - just as a mercenary army unfolds an armed rebellion and takes over a key city, the Russian military still finds it necessary to fire a few missiles at residential houses in Kyiv in the dead of night.
    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1672432756742057985
This discussion has been closed.