Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Is it any wonder the Nadine peerage move has been stalled? – politicalbetting.com

2456789

Comments

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    Hate to be That Guy, but only a vestigial remnant of UCTA is still in force. Consumer Rights Act 2015 is the daddy these days.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Gloucestershire currently 16-3 lol
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    Dorries is rather foolish. She's made some daft statements. I suspect that she was promised a seat in the Lords by BJ - and her belief in that doesn't add to her intellectual credentials. Nonetheless she's not a bad woman, and I really admire her (misplaced) loyalty.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    A choice by someone other than you that doesn't necessarily tell you the risks however is not an informed choice and I doubt the father had an informed choice either...hell as a father I might do something if there was a 5% chance of dying but no way I would be inviting my son along and I am sure most fathers would say the same
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2023
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Dear Boris

    Whether lefties sneer or not, you're still a fat lying cowardly twat.

    Yours

    The British People.
    It's laziness that gets me. There's simply no way he truly thinks its only Lefties 'sneering' about this, but he's just including words to trigger his fans. As Dr Palmer suggests, it's about making everything political.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    Miklosvar said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    This is a triumph for the left, actually. "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce".

    Who said that?
    Marx. It is more or less the only Marxist dictum that I quote with approval.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Miklosvar said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    Hate to be That Guy, but only a vestigial remnant of UCTA is still in force. Consumer Rights Act 2015 is the daddy these days.
    Yes but s2(1) of the UCTA remains in force and says:
    (1) A person cannot by reference to any contract term or to a notice given to persons generally or to particular persons exclude or restrict his liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    By going on about the mindsets at the time, he is seeminly suggesting that made the actions (or lack thereof) inevitable. Like most people at the time I'd have reacted in resigned fashion too, but it is a bit dispiriting if he thinks the US President can do no more than follow a current mindset. Does he not see himself as a leader?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    Genuinely informed choice?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    edited June 2023

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Um, isn't a middle position possible? They went on a dangerous adventure cruise, which sadly has gone wrong. There's no reason either to sneer or to treat it as a glorious British achievement, any more than if they'd crashed on a private plane. We should be sorry they died, without making it into a political thing either way.
    Ultimately it's a engineering thing; be very careful how you design, build, test and use a new type of submarine. Because the margins of success and failure are very tight and the consequences are fatal.

    But falling for move fast and break things merchants is something Bozza has form for.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Dear Boris

    Whether lefties sneer or not, you're still a fat lying cowardly twat.

    Yours

    The British People.
    It's laziness that gets me. There's simply no way he truly thinks its only Lefties 'sneering' about this, but he's just including words to trigger his fans. As Dr Palmer suggests, it's about making everything political.
    I'm far from sure Boris is lazy He'll not do the job which you pay him for, and when it's PM that's a pretty serious shortfall, but he really is quite industrious. Compare and contrast with David Davis MP - he'll never do a stroke of work unless it suits him, and then most likely not. (I firmly believe Davis to have done great damage)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    Genuinely informed choice?
    No idea, but the waiver they signed, whatever its legal effect, was pretty explicit in its terms.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Thank you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    It's a pretty depressing clip.

    And it makes me glad we have old, dodery Biden in the White House.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626

    We already have a word for this, it's called psychohistory

    Instead, the adherents of cliodynamics treat historical record just as, say, evolutionary biologists treat the palaeontological record. Theories are constructed and based on general principles and tested empirically with comprehensive databases. In short, we use the standard scientific method that worked so well in physics, biology, and many social science


    I'll just wait for Annales types to weigh in.
    I had actually encountered the psychohistory/cliodynamics crossover: see https://youtu.be/xWWnUzV2NmU?t=2028
    The problem is that -as quantum in physics- the arena of human activity is not a closed system. As a result, uncertainty, or "black swans" can lead to radically different outcomes that are essentially unknowable a priori.

    We can propose meta models, but these are, by definition, fuzzy and so the entire realm of grand theories, from Marxism to Realism is based on errors, and we can not predict where those errors will emerge in any except the most general terms.

    Partial theories, like liberalism, that purport to describe open systems, are still unlikely to be accurate since by definition they can not describe all factors for any given outcome. That being said, at least liberal philosophers, like Popper or Berlin accept the imperfection of their theories as partial theories and so are more honest and probably more accurate compared to grand theorists.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626

    The Poverty of Historicism says hello.
    I think I know what you mean, but can you pretend I'm a bit stupid and explain it to me in shortish words? :)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poverty_of_Historicism?wprov=sfla1
    Bloody hell, it's Popper again, Shakes fist at universe: "Curse you Karl! Curse you to an unfalsifiable Hell!"

    (thanks for link tho :) )
  • FPT

    boulay said:

    glw said:

    Britain doesn’t do capital investment.
    The culture is against it.
    Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.

    I don’t really know why that is.
    But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.

    That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.

    It's utterly perplexing to me. Take the recent arguing about mortgages and how to help people. That's only treating the symptom. It's not the cause of the problem. The cause is a massive under supply of housing going back many decades. People in the UK spend too much money for too little crap housing, so that a return to moderate and normal interest rates is crucifying them.

    Where is the political party saying "we will build 5 million homes over the next decade to fix the supply problem"? There isn't one, the debate is about tweaks not anyone grasping the nettle to fix the problem.

    The UK population will pass 70 million within a couple of years — assuming population statistics are correct which given the Settled Status scheme uptake may not be the case — and we are nailed on for 80 million by 2050, unless something incredible happens to migration*.

    We need to build an enormous amount of everything. A building programme like nothing in living memory, probably even surpassing the post-war years.

    * Climate change is likely to make the UK even more attractive for migrants, so don't believe under 100,000 a year is plausible, we'll be lucky if we can keep it down to two or three times that.
    Of course the UK needs a massive house building programme but you need to overcome two problems in my non expert opinion. Firstly there needs to be at least a suspension or ban on non UK resident house purchasers, even if only new build.

    Secondly you need to get past the nimbys. The only way I can think of doing that is to tie development to council funding so each council gets govt financing to encourage building housing and if their targets aren’t met they get penalised financially from their next year’s overall budget so when people living in that council are faced with reduced services making their little nimby paradises less pleasant then they might have to start being less selfish.

    Council gets financial help to build, gets given a good argument to crush nimbyism and hopefully unbungs the system.
    Worth pointing out yet again that 90% of all housing development planning is passed first time by local councils and a further 5% is passed on appeal.

    So the idea that the vast underbuild is due to nimbyism is a myth. Yes nimbyism does of course exist but its power and influence is massively overstated. As long as the gap between planning permissions and builds keeps increasing by around 80 - 100K a year, planning is not the issue.
    Except your figures are wrong, and/or irrelevant.

    Firstly the percentage passed is largely irrelevant at best, since people only put in applications if they think they'll be passed. So all the potential that could have been built with a different system but no application was put in, is lost and not in your statistics.

    Secondly the 90% passed is a misnomer as it seems its the percentage of total applications and not residential construction. For residential developments its only 80%, despite my point above.

    Thirdly that 80% is inflated by the larger developers who can work the system better. For minor developments, which as we have discussed umpteen times ought to be able to compete better in a better system its a meagre 75% approved. Despite the fact people are put off from applying in the first place, a quarter of those that do apply are knocked back.

    Finally those 75% approvals include a pathetically low 5,300 approvals for just 1 home developments, and 2,200 approved homes [total] for 2 home developments. 7,500 single or two home approvals in a country of 67 million that needs 300k new homes a year is pathetically low and its because of the planning system despite your claims to the contrary.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Not his finest hour and, frankly, with the benefit of hindsight admittedly, he should be accepting that he got this wrong. As did Merkel of course.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    What the fuck has happened to Obama???
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    Genuinely informed choice?
    If the submarine has done 50 trips, then for the first 49 any warnings were entirely superfluous and could have been omitted. While for the fiftieth...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Dear Boris

    Whether lefties sneer or not, you're still a fat lying cowardly twat.

    Yours

    The British People.
    It's laziness that gets me. There's simply no way he truly thinks its only Lefties 'sneering' about this, but he's just including words to trigger his fans. As Dr Palmer suggests, it's about making everything political.
    I'm far from sure Boris is lazy He'll not do the job which you pay him for, and when it's PM that's a pretty serious shortfall, but he really is quite industrious. Compare and contrast with David Davis MP - he'll never do a stroke of work unless it suits him, and then most likely not. (I firmly believe Davis to have done great damage)
    I was referring to intellectual laziness.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    It's weird. In the last couple of weeks I've seen Titanic on channel 4 (didn't watch the whole thing) and also last weekend we had Kursk on BBC4.

    A little reminder about that disaster in 2000. Whatever her faults Mrs Thatcher got Putin spot on from the start.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QKiSvwzr94
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    edited June 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Not his finest hour and, frankly, with the benefit of hindsight admittedly, he should be accepting that he got this wrong. As did Merkel of course.
    Actually I don’t think he’s saying anything especially outrageous there. He’s soft on himself, and far too soft on Merkel’s huge errors (esp energy) but he’s not “trotting out Putinist spiel”

    He’s got a reasonable point of view on the geopolitics. And Crimea IS different to Ukraine
    proper

    Also: it doesn’t really matter

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    DavidL said:

    Miklosvar said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
    Sure, under the Unfair contract Terms Act any exclusion of liability for death is void. That's the law and it is there for good reasons, but I accept that people make their choices. In the case of the 19 year old I suspect the choice was made by his father but it was still a choice.
    Hate to be That Guy, but only a vestigial remnant of UCTA is still in force. Consumer Rights Act 2015 is the daddy these days.
    Yes but s2(1) of the UCTA remains in force and says:
    (1) A person cannot by reference to any contract term or to a notice given to persons generally or to particular persons exclude or restrict his liability for death or personal injury resulting from negligence.
    But 2 (4) This section does not apply to—
    (a)a term in a consumer contract, or
    (b)a notice to the extent that it is a consumer notice,(but see the provision made about such contracts and notices in sections 62 and 65 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015)

    A holiday is a consumer contract

    But anyway this is US law, and it seems to be the case there also that you can't exclude liability for death caused by negligence.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    46C in parts of Texas at the moment, with high humidity as well

    Having recently experienced this in Bangkok (think we hit 44C?) I can only empathise. It’s horrible. You feel like you’re dying. If you stay too long outside without shade and water you do die, very quickly

    Imagine if the aircon breaks down?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    Is this the year everything burns down? It would explain why the orcas have finally had enough of us
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He talks sense on occasion. On this one, where he is not, I suspect he refuses to reassess his own actions in the light of new information and events as he sees it as an attack.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    kle4 said:

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He talks sense on occasion. On this one, where he is not, I suspect he refuses to reassess his own actions in the light of new information and events as he sees it as an attack.
    He’s used to being venerated and adored. Not used to a critical perspective. So he’s quite bad at justifying mistakes in hindsight


    This is not especially damning, however
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    edited June 2023
    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
    No not nihilism to give a concrete example....if I am burgalled and just want to make an insurance claim I call the police who will give me a crime number but nothing else....if I want my stuff actually back for whatever reason I don't call the police I call other people. Many take the same route.

    As to mps, I accept there are a few good ones, maybe even more when they first come in but mostly they make out like bandits after they leave parliament. Now either they are pretending well or when they realise what they can make for selling out then most choose to make lots of money, same applies to senior civil servants.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    kle4 said:

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He talks sense on occasion. On this one, where he is not, I suspect he refuses to reassess his own actions in the light of new information and events as he sees it as an attack.
    Ah, the Tony Blair method.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    It also seems the people of Mid Bedfordshire won't have a working constituency MP to represent their interests either. Irrespective of the political stripe of the MP, their primary role is to support and work for their constituents. If they aren't prepared to do that, they should be removed.
  • kle4 said:

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He talks sense on occasion. On this one, where he is not, I suspect he refuses to reassess his own actions in the light of new information and events as he sees it as an attack.
    It deserves to be attacked.

    He could and should accept he made a mistake and with the benefit of hindsight should and would have acted differently.

    But to still claim no wrong was done, no mistakes made, even with the benefit of hindsight?
    To rewrite history to make Kremlin lies his version of truth too.

    This is the kind of BS you'd expect from Trump. I'm thoroughly disgusted to see it from Obama too. Thank goodness Biden is POTUS now not him.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    97 fahrenheit. Wow.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Typical of the populist Right unfortunately to try to make political capital out of human tragedy.

    May those poor souls rest in peace and the less we hear from the former Prime Minister, the better.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He doesn't look that different to me. Obviously the white hair has taken over.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Miklosvar said:

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    97 fahrenheit. Wow.
    Imagine that without aircon. Lots of places in Austria don’t have aircon
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    I doubt the reason HOLAC told former BUPA director Nadine Dorries no was either because she said she wanted to delay going to the red benches or because of the poor service she provided to her constituents. There have been question marks over her expense claims and also over whether or not she breached the Representation of the People Act.

    On the positive side, she once stood up to the Heil, which is more than most Tory MPs can say.
  • What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He doesn't look that different to me. Obviously the white hair has taken over.
    What a shock that Putinguy doesn't see anything wrong with what Obama said.

    Kind of reinforces that what Obama said was wrong.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302

    kle4 said:

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He talks sense on occasion. On this one, where he is not, I suspect he refuses to reassess his own actions in the light of new information and events as he sees it as an attack.
    It deserves to be attacked.

    He could and should accept he made a mistake and with the benefit of hindsight should and would have acted differently.

    But to still claim no wrong was done, no mistakes made, even with the benefit of hindsight?
    To rewrite history to make Kremlin lies his version of truth too.

    This is the kind of BS you'd expect from Trump. I'm thoroughly disgusted to see it from Obama too. Thank goodness Biden is POTUS now not him.
    It's the contrast in reactions that is telling. If Trump started claiming that there was no invasion in 2014, saying that Russia was representing its interests and talking about about "Russian speakers", people like @Cicero would be decrying the nihilism of populism and saying he was in the pocket of Putin.
  • kle4 said:

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He talks sense on occasion. On this one, where he is not, I suspect he refuses to reassess his own actions in the light of new information and events as he sees it as an attack.
    It deserves to be attacked.

    He could and should accept he made a mistake and with the benefit of hindsight should and would have acted differently.

    But to still claim no wrong was done, no mistakes made, even with the benefit of hindsight?
    To rewrite history to make Kremlin lies his version of truth too.

    This is the kind of BS you'd expect from Trump. I'm thoroughly disgusted to see it from Obama too. Thank goodness Biden is POTUS now not him.
    It's the contrast in reactions that is telling. If Trump started claiming that there was no invasion in 2014, saying that Russia was representing its interests and talking about about "Russian speakers", people like @Cicero would be decrying the nihilism of populism and saying he was in the pocket of Putin.
    And people like @Cicero would be absolutely right to do so with Trump.

    And the exact same damned thing needs to be said about Obama now too.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    edited June 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
    No not nihilism to give a concrete example....if I am burgalled and just want to make an insurance claim I call the police who will give me a crime number but nothing else....if I want my stuff actually back for whatever reason I don't call the police I call other people. Many take the seem route.

    As to mps, I accept there are a few good ones, maybe even more when they first come in but mostly they make out like bandits after they leave parliament. Now either they are pretending well or when they realise what they can make for selling out then most choose to make lots of money, same applies to senior civil servants.
    Well, some MPs go on to milk the system, but for every one that might do that there are 10 that do not. I know many MPs that have faced considerable financial hardship after leaving Parliament. It is one reason why I am so hostile to Johnson, who was milking before, during and after his Parliamentary career.

    The issue of the breaking of the system is not necessarily the fault of the Police- the insurers are guilty of placing a burden on our public services that they do not pay for.

    There is of course no doubt that public services need reform in the UK, but so does the private sector, and pointing fingers won´t solve anything. We need to set a reform agenda, and that means we need to talk across party lines too.

    Hard, but once the populist poo is expelled from the system, we will still need to live and work together.

    It is time for us to be a bit grown up about the serious problems we face, which is why Johnson should be told to just "go awayayayay" (c. Billy Connolly)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He doesn't look that different to me. Obviously the white hair has taken over.
    What a shock that Putinguy doesn't see anything wrong with what Obama said.

    Kind of reinforces that what Obama said was wrong.
    I haven't listened to the clip.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    FPT

    boulay said:

    glw said:

    Britain doesn’t do capital investment.
    The culture is against it.
    Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.

    I don’t really know why that is.
    But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.

    That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.

    It's utterly perplexing to me. Take the recent arguing about mortgages and how to help people. That's only treating the symptom. It's not the cause of the problem. The cause is a massive under supply of housing going back many decades. People in the UK spend too much money for too little crap housing, so that a return to moderate and normal interest rates is crucifying them.

    Where is the political party saying "we will build 5 million homes over the next decade to fix the supply problem"? There isn't one, the debate is about tweaks not anyone grasping the nettle to fix the problem.

    The UK population will pass 70 million within a couple of years — assuming population statistics are correct which given the Settled Status scheme uptake may not be the case — and we are nailed on for 80 million by 2050, unless something incredible happens to migration*.

    We need to build an enormous amount of everything. A building programme like nothing in living memory, probably even surpassing the post-war years.

    * Climate change is likely to make the UK even more attractive for migrants, so don't believe under 100,000 a year is plausible, we'll be lucky if we can keep it down to two or three times that.
    Of course the UK needs a massive house building programme but you need to overcome two problems in my non expert opinion. Firstly there needs to be at least a suspension or ban on non UK resident house purchasers, even if only new build.

    Secondly you need to get past the nimbys. The only way I can think of doing that is to tie development to council funding so each council gets govt financing to encourage building housing and if their targets aren’t met they get penalised financially from their next year’s overall budget so when people living in that council are faced with reduced services making their little nimby paradises less pleasant then they might have to start being less selfish.

    Council gets financial help to build, gets given a good argument to crush nimbyism and hopefully unbungs the system.
    Worth pointing out yet again that 90% of all housing development planning is passed first time by local councils and a further 5% is passed on appeal.

    So the idea that the vast underbuild is due to nimbyism is a myth. Yes nimbyism does of course exist but its power and influence is massively overstated. As long as the gap between planning permissions and builds keeps increasing by around 80 - 100K a year, planning is not the issue.
    Except your figures are wrong, and/or irrelevant.

    Firstly the percentage passed is largely irrelevant at best, since people only put in applications if they think they'll be passed. So all the potential that could have been built with a different system but no application was put in, is lost and not in your statistics.

    Secondly the 90% passed is a misnomer as it seems its the percentage of total applications and not residential construction. For residential developments its only 80%, despite my point above.

    Thirdly that 80% is inflated by the larger developers who can work the system better. For minor developments, which as we have discussed umpteen times ought to be able to compete better in a better system its a meagre 75% approved. Despite the fact people are put off from applying in the first place, a quarter of those that do apply are knocked back.

    Finally those 75% approvals include a pathetically low 5,300 approvals for just 1 home developments, and 2,200 approved homes [total] for 2 home developments. 7,500 single or two home approvals in a country of 67 million that needs 300k new homes a year is pathetically low and its because of the planning system despite your claims to the contrary.
    Not wrong. I get the figures direct from the LGA.

    You are clutching at straws because once again your blind hatred of a planning system, of which you continue to show complete ignorance, means you can accept no other reason for the failure to build enough houses.

    And by the way one of the representatives from the SME development firms was on Sky the other morning explaining that the main reason for the lack of building was not planning issues (what a surprise) but the difficulty in raising finance. But of course he is just one of the industry experts so what the hell does he know.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    Leon said:

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    Is this the year everything burns down? It would explain why the orcas have finally had enough of us
    The cone of hot air (+24c 850s) has moved from Austria to cover Italy, Croatia and Serbia today but is weakening.

    Indeed, for those seeking relief from heat, there's plenty of good news in the evening's charts with the return of Atlantic air after the weekend bringing much cooler, fresher and more unsettled conditions to north-west Europe.

    I'd argue next week will be a welcome relief for the millions of hay fever sufferers as well as gardeners and other people who just don't like the heat while those who do can spend the whole week wittering on about where summer has gone and making asinine comments about "global warming".

    Beyond that, there could be interruptions at Wimbledon on the outside courts in the next week but signs the second week will be better. Wouldn't rule out some breaks in play during the second test.
  • FPT

    boulay said:

    glw said:

    Britain doesn’t do capital investment.
    The culture is against it.
    Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.

    I don’t really know why that is.
    But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.

    That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.

    It's utterly perplexing to me. Take the recent arguing about mortgages and how to help people. That's only treating the symptom. It's not the cause of the problem. The cause is a massive under supply of housing going back many decades. People in the UK spend too much money for too little crap housing, so that a return to moderate and normal interest rates is crucifying them.

    Where is the political party saying "we will build 5 million homes over the next decade to fix the supply problem"? There isn't one, the debate is about tweaks not anyone grasping the nettle to fix the problem.

    The UK population will pass 70 million within a couple of years — assuming population statistics are correct which given the Settled Status scheme uptake may not be the case — and we are nailed on for 80 million by 2050, unless something incredible happens to migration*.

    We need to build an enormous amount of everything. A building programme like nothing in living memory, probably even surpassing the post-war years.

    * Climate change is likely to make the UK even more attractive for migrants, so don't believe under 100,000 a year is plausible, we'll be lucky if we can keep it down to two or three times that.
    Of course the UK needs a massive house building programme but you need to overcome two problems in my non expert opinion. Firstly there needs to be at least a suspension or ban on non UK resident house purchasers, even if only new build.

    Secondly you need to get past the nimbys. The only way I can think of doing that is to tie development to council funding so each council gets govt financing to encourage building housing and if their targets aren’t met they get penalised financially from their next year’s overall budget so when people living in that council are faced with reduced services making their little nimby paradises less pleasant then they might have to start being less selfish.

    Council gets financial help to build, gets given a good argument to crush nimbyism and hopefully unbungs the system.
    Worth pointing out yet again that 90% of all housing development planning is passed first time by local councils and a further 5% is passed on appeal.

    So the idea that the vast underbuild is due to nimbyism is a myth. Yes nimbyism does of course exist but its power and influence is massively overstated. As long as the gap between planning permissions and builds keeps increasing by around 80 - 100K a year, planning is not the issue.
    Except your figures are wrong, and/or irrelevant.

    Firstly the percentage passed is largely irrelevant at best, since people only put in applications if they think they'll be passed. So all the potential that could have been built with a different system but no application was put in, is lost and not in your statistics.

    Secondly the 90% passed is a misnomer as it seems its the percentage of total applications and not residential construction. For residential developments its only 80%, despite my point above.

    Thirdly that 80% is inflated by the larger developers who can work the system better. For minor developments, which as we have discussed umpteen times ought to be able to compete better in a better system its a meagre 75% approved. Despite the fact people are put off from applying in the first place, a quarter of those that do apply are knocked back.

    Finally those 75% approvals include a pathetically low 5,300 approvals for just 1 home developments, and 2,200 approved homes [total] for 2 home developments. 7,500 single or two home approvals in a country of 67 million that needs 300k new homes a year is pathetically low and its because of the planning system despite your claims to the contrary.
    Not wrong. I get the figures direct from the LGA.

    You are clutching at straws because once again your blind hatred of a planning system, of which you continue to show complete ignorance, means you can accept no other reason for the failure to build enough houses.

    And by the way one of the representatives from the SME development firms was on Sky the other morning explaining that the main reason for the lack of building was not planning issues (what a surprise) but the difficulty in raising finance. But of course he is just one of the industry experts so what the hell does he know.
    You haven't understood the figures if you think residential approvals are 90%, because they're not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    What the fuck has happened to Obama???

    He doesn't look that different to me. Obviously the white hair has taken over.
    What a shock that Putinguy doesn't see anything wrong with what Obama said.

    Kind of reinforces that what Obama said was wrong.
    What exactly is so spectacularly offensive about Obama's statement?

    I LOVE being outraged, but I can't ginger up any outrage here

    Obama is badly mistaken to let Merkel off the hook so easily, apart from that he makes a reasonable if self-serving point. He had to deal with a Putin-friendly mindset in the EU, the Crimea was/is different to the rest of Ukraine, etc
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Um, isn't a middle position possible? They went on a dangerous adventure cruise, which sadly has gone wrong. There's no reason either to sneer or to treat it as a glorious British achievement, any more than if they'd crashed on a private plane. We should be sorry they died, without making it into a political thing either way.
    They were rich play prats, not extenders of human knowledge. But I agree there shouldn't be a party political angle. Richard Branson is an example of a rich play prat who supported Labour. Boris Johnson disagrees, though. Gotta wonder whether he wrote another version of his first article at the Heil in his new job that didn't make it into print. They're supposed to be paying him high six figures per year, and he turns in an article basically saying some irrelevant news article or other vindicates right wing jingoism? Does it now? Zzzzzz! I know he's a pillock, but I didn't realise he was so big of a pillock. How long will he keep this job? Will it be the fourth he loses because he tells lies?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    edited June 2023
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I thought it was accepted she'd been knocked back because she'd neither resigned nor pledged to resign as an MP?

    Apparently. Boris told it was fine, and she believed him, and is now made others are applying the rules as it turns out he was wrong.
    Yes, sounds like he bullshitted and just let a mess develop, assuming it would work out somehow, rather than confronting the issue and dealing with it. Most unlike him.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959
    Westie said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Um, isn't a middle position possible? They went on a dangerous adventure cruise, which sadly has gone wrong. There's no reason either to sneer or to treat it as a glorious British achievement, any more than if they'd crashed on a private plane. We should be sorry they died, without making it into a political thing either way.
    They were rich play prats, not extenders of human knowledge. But I agree there shouldn't be a party political angle. Richard Branson is an example of a rich play prat who supported Labour. Boris Johnson disagrees, though. Gotta wonder whether he wrote another version of his first article at the Heil in his new job that didn't make it into print. They're supposed to be paying him high six figures per year, and he turns in an article basically saying some irrelevant news article or other vindicates right wing jingoism? Does it now? Zzzzzz! I know he's a pillock, but I didn't realise he was so big of a pillock. How long will he keep this job? Will it be the fourth he loses because he tells lies?
    Really bad post.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,959

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    Meanwhile in central England it's about 19 degrees with light rain at the moment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    Is this the year everything burns down? It would explain why the orcas have finally had enough of us
    The cone of hot air (+24c 850s) has moved from Austria to cover Italy, Croatia and Serbia today but is weakening.

    Indeed, for those seeking relief from heat, there's plenty of good news in the evening's charts with the return of Atlantic air after the weekend bringing much cooler, fresher and more unsettled conditions to north-west Europe.

    I'd argue next week will be a welcome relief for the millions of hay fever sufferers as well as gardeners and other people who just don't like the heat while those who do can spend the whole week wittering on about where summer has gone and making asinine comments about "global warming".

    Beyond that, there could be interruptions at Wimbledon on the outside courts in the next week but signs the second week will be better. Wouldn't rule out some breaks in play during the second test.
    I have an absolute ton of work, albeit quite lucrative. I wouldn't mind some cooler Atlantic days. TBH

    My southfacing flat with floor-ceiling windows bakes in the sun. Ouch
  • For the actual statistics @Richard_Tyndall rather than the made up ones you've been using, try looking here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1161583/Table_P120A__Final_.ods

    Please show me where you are getting 90% of residential planning applications approved from, as the Government says completely different. Only 72% of minor residential applications were approved last year, and 90% hasn't been approved in any year, in any category of residential applications.

    image
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Britain Trump! He so is now.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    edited June 2023
    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
    No not nihilism to give a concrete example....if I am burgalled and just want to make an insurance claim I call the police who will give me a crime number but nothing else....if I want my stuff actually back for whatever reason I don't call the police I call other people. Many take the seem route.

    As to mps, I accept there are a few good ones, maybe even more when they first come in but mostly they make out like bandits after they leave parliament. Now either they are pretending well or when they realise what they can make for selling out then most choose to make lots of money, same applies to senior civil servants.
    Well, some MPs go on to milk the system, but for every one that might do that there are 10 that do not. I know many MPs that have faced considerable financial hardship after leaving Parliament. It is one reason why I am so hostile to Johnson, who was milking before, during and after his Parliamentary career.

    The issue of the breaking of the system is not necessarily the fault of the Police- the insurers are guilty of placing a burden on our public services that they do not pay for.

    There is of course no doubt that public services need reform in the UK, but so does the private sector, and pointing fingers won´t solve anything. We need to set a reform agenda, and that means we need to talk across party lines too.

    Hard, but once the populist poo is expelled from the system, we will still need to live and work together.

    It is time for us to be a bit grown up about the serious problems we face, which is why Johnson should be told to just "go awayayayay" (c. Billy Connolly)
    Hang on how do you blame the insurance companies....its the police that actively choose not to investigate burglaries or car break ins....the insurance companies don't come into it. It is the justice system that on the rare occasion they are prosecuted that chooses to let the arseholes out on community service despite 50 previous offences....again nothing to do with the insurance companies

    I know damn well if someone breaks into my house and I object and their is a tussle and they get hurt it will be me the police and justice system goes after for it

    The system is broken and people are fed up with it and are increasingly taking justice into their own hands and you know tens of ex mps in financial hardship go on then name one
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Andy_JS said:

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    Meanwhile in central England it's about 19 degrees with light rain at the moment.
    Scorchio-ish on the feral Primrose Hill borders. 26C at 19:00
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992

    FPT

    boulay said:

    glw said:

    Britain doesn’t do capital investment.
    The culture is against it.
    Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.

    I don’t really know why that is.
    But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.

    That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.

    It's utterly perplexing to me. Take the recent arguing about mortgages and how to help people. That's only treating the symptom. It's not the cause of the problem. The cause is a massive under supply of housing going back many decades. People in the UK spend too much money for too little crap housing, so that a return to moderate and normal interest rates is crucifying them.

    Where is the political party saying "we will build 5 million homes over the next decade to fix the supply problem"? There isn't one, the debate is about tweaks not anyone grasping the nettle to fix the problem.

    The UK population will pass 70 million within a couple of years — assuming population statistics are correct which given the Settled Status scheme uptake may not be the case — and we are nailed on for 80 million by 2050, unless something incredible happens to migration*.

    We need to build an enormous amount of everything. A building programme like nothing in living memory, probably even surpassing the post-war years.

    * Climate change is likely to make the UK even more attractive for migrants, so don't believe under 100,000 a year is plausible, we'll be lucky if we can keep it down to two or three times that.
    Of course the UK needs a massive house building programme but you need to overcome two problems in my non expert opinion. Firstly there needs to be at least a suspension or ban on non UK resident house purchasers, even if only new build.

    Secondly you need to get past the nimbys. The only way I can think of doing that is to tie development to council funding so each council gets govt financing to encourage building housing and if their targets aren’t met they get penalised financially from their next year’s overall budget so when people living in that council are faced with reduced services making their little nimby paradises less pleasant then they might have to start being less selfish.

    Council gets financial help to build, gets given a good argument to crush nimbyism and hopefully unbungs the system.
    Worth pointing out yet again that 90% of all housing development planning is passed first time by local councils and a further 5% is passed on appeal.

    So the idea that the vast underbuild is due to nimbyism is a myth. Yes nimbyism does of course exist but its power and influence is massively overstated. As long as the gap between planning permissions and builds keeps increasing by around 80 - 100K a year, planning is not the issue.
    Except your figures are wrong, and/or irrelevant.

    Firstly the percentage passed is largely irrelevant at best, since people only put in applications if they think they'll be passed. So all the potential that could have been built with a different system but no application was put in, is lost and not in your statistics.

    Secondly the 90% passed is a misnomer as it seems its the percentage of total applications and not residential construction. For residential developments its only 80%, despite my point above.

    Thirdly that 80% is inflated by the larger developers who can work the system better. For minor developments, which as we have discussed umpteen times ought to be able to compete better in a better system its a meagre 75% approved. Despite the fact people are put off from applying in the first place, a quarter of those that do apply are knocked back.

    Finally those 75% approvals include a pathetically low 5,300 approvals for just 1 home developments, and 2,200 approved homes [total] for 2 home developments. 7,500 single or two home approvals in a country of 67 million that needs 300k new homes a year is pathetically low and its because of the planning system despite your claims to the contrary.
    Not wrong. I get the figures direct from the LGA.

    You are clutching at straws because once again your blind hatred of a planning system, of which you continue to show complete ignorance, means you can accept no other reason for the failure to build enough houses.

    And by the way one of the representatives from the SME development firms was on Sky the other morning explaining that the main reason for the lack of building was not planning issues (what a surprise) but the difficulty in raising finance. But of course he is just one of the industry experts so what the hell does he know.
    The planning "process" starts long before any application is submitted with a series of meetings between council planning officers and prospective devleopers.

    It's often a game of cat-and-mouse but the aim of the developer will be to establish what the Council is likely to accept (bearing in mind Members have no obligation to accept Officer recommendations) and it's not until both sides understand what the other is trying to do that anything approaching an application will be submitted.

    That can take months and even then there could be a large volume of objections (many developers use third party communications firms whose role is to keep the local residents "informed" about any proposed development including organising public meetings. The point of this is to anticipate and respond to potential objections before the public consultation process begins).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    edited June 2023
    Talking about Nadine.......I went to the Liverpool Festival yesterday and it was great! It's got to be the most vibrant city in England. There's an energy there ........

    A cheerful blond came careering into me "Ooh God I'm Dead Sorry......".An accent that makes you melt......

    Matthew Street ..... a copywriter's joke ....Strawberry Fields and Cream..... The Cavern Bar.... IMAGINE THE CAVERN BAR...an Elvis look a like......a wall size Johnny Rotten...With 'ELVIS playing live


    They've done great things with the waterfront. The Tate had a Turner exhibition on but all the galleries and exhibitions were fun.

    Come on Nadine..how did you turn out so crap?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915
    I know that I want this to be true so badly that there's no way I can make any sort of judgement as to the reliability of the report, but, please God let this be true.

    "NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦
    @NOELreports
    Channels associated with Wagner report that their camp was hit by a massive rocket attack. According to the reports of Wagners fighters, the attack was inflicted from the rear. Meaning Russian Federation forces would be behind this attack. Needs verification but sounds epic."


    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672312279646314496

    "Cloooud |🇺🇦
    @GloOouD
    Prigozhin said that the Russian Armed Forces launched a missile attack on the PMC «Wagner» camps.

    “A HUGE number of our comrades died, we will decide how to respond to this atrocity,” – Prigozhin"


    https://twitter.com/GloOouD/status/1672308145719238656
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    Extreme Temperatures Around The World
    @extremetemps
    ·
    8h
    Absolutely mind blowing heat record in Austria:
    just before MIDNIGHT Oberndorf with fohn effect rose to 36.1C beating its monthly heat record.

    It's one of the highest temperatures ever recorded in Europe at midnight and one of the very few cases a record is broken night time.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps

    Is this the year everything burns down? It would explain why the orcas have finally had enough of us
    The cone of hot air (+24c 850s) has moved from Austria to cover Italy, Croatia and Serbia today but is weakening.

    Indeed, for those seeking relief from heat, there's plenty of good news in the evening's charts with the return of Atlantic air after the weekend bringing much cooler, fresher and more unsettled conditions to north-west Europe.

    I'd argue next week will be a welcome relief for the millions of hay fever sufferers as well as gardeners and other people who just don't like the heat while those who do can spend the whole week wittering on about where summer has gone and making asinine comments about "global warming".

    Beyond that, there could be interruptions at Wimbledon on the outside courts in the next week but signs the second week will be better. Wouldn't rule out some breaks in play during the second test.
    I have an absolute ton of work, albeit quite lucrative. I wouldn't mind some cooler Atlantic days. TBH

    My southfacing flat with floor-ceiling windows bakes in the sun. Ouch
    I sympathise - my hayfever has been the worst I've known it this week. A couple of days I've just felt so listless - I thought about putting my head in a bucket of water but you get a brief sensation of nearly drowning and a very wet carpet.

    Putting feet in cold water is much better,
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,152
    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    And the people who are good at it are all absolute safety obsessives because they have to be. Go down to your local sky diving club and give them a few Rushsms about how rules are for losers, you are remembered for the ones you break, etc, and see how impressed they are, and eager to have you on the team. Nobody here is saying you can't go Titanic diving, they are saying off you go but you bloody well Do It Right.

    Which spookily enough is the actual motto of the world cave diving fraternity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_It_Right_(scuba_diving)
    Fuck yeah.

    I still remember when I was doing some dive training a Horsey Lake, Portsmouth. A great big green pond, where you have zero visibility. Awesome for learning your skills.

    We were on the dock, removing kit and there were these two French guys who were Too Cool For School. So instead of one guy holding the tank, while they other guy slid out of the straps, one of them just shrugged it off. And dropped it.

    It dropped on its neck on the concrete. CLANG!

    In the style of a Hollywood action movie, instructors starburst into forward roll dives over low walls, equipment stacks....

    I'd just come out of the water - was standing on the dock, in full kit. So I folded my arms and fell backwards, back into the water. Figured that a few feet underwater would be good protection.

    CLANG! It bounced again, on its neck.

    And a couple more times before it fell over.

    The idiot still didn't get the message. Even after he was told to fuck off and never come back by the head instructor.

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Not his finest hour and, frankly, with the benefit of hindsight admittedly, he should be accepting that he got this wrong. As did Merkel of course.
    There is a thing where any 'take' on the situation in Ukraine other than the correct one gets dismissed as 'pro Putin propoganda'.

    If you look at the popularity of Pro Russian parties in Ukraine Obama is correct in that it fell dramatically after 2014, because most of the most strongly Pro Russian areas in Ukraine effectively became part of Russia at this point, thus enabling a new Ukrainian identity to emerge that rejected Russia, and resulting in the response we saw in 2022.
  • darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Not his finest hour and, frankly, with the benefit of hindsight admittedly, he should be accepting that he got this wrong. As did Merkel of course.
    There is a thing where any 'take' on the situation in Ukraine other than the correct one gets dismissed as 'pro Putin propoganda'.

    If you look at the popularity of Pro Russian parties in Ukraine Obama is correct in that it fell dramatically after 2014, because most of the most strongly Pro Russian areas in Ukraine effectively became part of Russia at this point, thus enabling a new Ukrainian identity to emerge that rejected Russia, and resulting in the response we saw in 2022.
    He's not remotely correct, the Ukrainian identity has existed for Centuries, there's nothing new about it.

    The areas that Russia invaded were the most strongly pro-Russian, but they were still Ukrainian, still pro-Ukraine and it was still an invasion.

    Every single area of Ukraine, including Crimea, had voted to be a part of an independent Ukraine at the last free election.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Omnium said:

    Dorries is rather foolish. She's made some daft statements. I suspect that she was promised a seat in the Lords by BJ - and her belief in that doesn't add to her intellectual credentials. Nonetheless she's not a bad woman, and I really admire her (misplaced) loyalty.

    Do you admire ND's attendance record, and absenteeism from her constituency as well as Westminster?

    OR is it that she up and joined Sinn Féin without telling anyone (outside SF)? Fenian mole!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,416
    That is some really weird flirting. "Now here it comes. Open your mouth. Good, good. Now swallow"
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Britain Trump! He so is now.
    "BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. . ."

    Strange - Pagan2 is a lefty? Who'd've thunk it!
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    FPT

    Andy_JS said:

    "Keir Starmer sold ice creams illegally in France as student
    Labour leader’s summer holiday job revealed by university friend"

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-sold-ice-creams-in-illegally-in-france-as-student-z6j5z9x8r

    Well, that's it. All over.
    Starmer's fucked now.
    Bet they were korma-flavoured ice creams as well.
    The Times used to be a newspaper.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    edited June 2023
    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,477

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
  • dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    edited June 2023

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Britain Trump! He so is now.
    "BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. . ."

    Strange - Pagan2 is a lefty? Who'd've thunk it!
    I havent commented on johnson referencing the wrong poster maybe?

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Prigozhin just added that they have 25,000 men and called for others who want to end this to join them.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
    No not nihilism to give a concrete example....if I am burgalled and just want to make an insurance claim I call the police who will give me a crime number but nothing else....if I want my stuff actually back for whatever reason I don't call the police I call other people. Many take the seem route.

    As to mps, I accept there are a few good ones, maybe even more when they first come in but mostly they make out like bandits after they leave parliament. Now either they are pretending well or when they realise what they can make for selling out then most choose to make lots of money, same applies to senior civil servants.
    Well, some MPs go on to milk the system, but for every one that might do that there are 10 that do not. I know many MPs that have faced considerable financial hardship after leaving Parliament. It is one reason why I am so hostile to Johnson, who was milking before, during and after his Parliamentary career.

    The issue of the breaking of the system is not necessarily the fault of the Police- the insurers are guilty of placing a burden on our public services that they do not pay for.

    There is of course no doubt that public services need reform in the UK, but so does the private sector, and pointing fingers won´t solve anything. We need to set a reform agenda, and that means we need to talk across party lines too.

    Hard, but once the populist poo is expelled from the system, we will still need to live and work together.

    It is time for us to be a bit grown up about the serious problems we face, which is why Johnson should be told to just "go awayayayay" (c. Billy Connolly)
    Hang on how do you blame the insurance companies....its the police that actively choose not to investigate burglaries or car break ins....the insurance companies don't come into it. It is the justice system that on the rare occasion they are prosecuted that chooses to let the arseholes out on community service despite 50 previous offences....again nothing to do with the insurance companies

    I know damn well if someone breaks into my house and I object and their is a tussle and they get hurt it will be me the police and justice system goes after for it

    The system is broken and people are fed up with it and are increasingly taking justice into their own hands and you know tens of ex mps in financial hardship go on then name one
    I do not want to embarass people personally, but certainly a well known former Bristol MP, and several MPs in Scotland, who literally ended up in the UBO. Nick Palmer and many others can confirm this.

    Police paperwork for insurance claims is surprisingly large, and while it is clear that the Justice system is wildly underfunded, it is not always a matter of money, it is a matter of priorities
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,915

    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
    It's a start!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Climate will take 50-100 years to sort out.

    Best get used to it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,152
    Westie said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Um, isn't a middle position possible? They went on a dangerous adventure cruise, which sadly has gone wrong. There's no reason either to sneer or to treat it as a glorious British achievement, any more than if they'd crashed on a private plane. We should be sorry they died, without making it into a political thing either way.
    They were rich play prats, not extenders of human knowledge. But I agree there shouldn't be a party political angle. Richard Branson is an example of a rich play prat who supported Labour. Boris Johnson disagrees, though. Gotta wonder whether he wrote another version of his first article at the Heil in his new job that didn't make it into print. They're supposed to be paying him high six figures per year, and he turns in an article basically saying some irrelevant news article or other vindicates right wing jingoism? Does it now? Zzzzzz! I know he's a pillock, but I didn't realise he was so big of a pillock. How long will he keep this job? Will it be the fourth he loses because he tells lies?
    The reason that Johnson is wrong on this, is that they were taking a huge number of known, unnecessary risks. Diving deep is an old old profession. A century and a half of dead people at the bottom of seas and lakes.

    If you want to go to the bottom of the sea, there are a number of high end, brilliantly engineered subs to do so. which use all of the accumulated knowledge.

    Don't "spend" risk on already known dangers - that's stupid.

    If you want exploration - https://polarisprogram.com/dawn/

    which followed on from

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspiration4

    The next Polaris flight after this one is possibly going to be a reboot of the Hubble Space Telescope - https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2022/nasa-spacex-to-study-hubble-telescope-reboost-possibility

    Which would be actual science.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,152

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Not his finest hour and, frankly, with the benefit of hindsight admittedly, he should be accepting that he got this wrong. As did Merkel of course.
    There is a thing where any 'take' on the situation in Ukraine other than the correct one gets dismissed as 'pro Putin propoganda'.

    If you look at the popularity of Pro Russian parties in Ukraine Obama is correct in that it fell dramatically after 2014, because most of the most strongly Pro Russian areas in Ukraine effectively became part of Russia at this point, thus enabling a new Ukrainian identity to emerge that rejected Russia, and resulting in the response we saw in 2022.
    He's not remotely correct, the Ukrainian identity has existed for Centuries, there's nothing new about it.

    The areas that Russia invaded were the most strongly pro-Russian, but they were still Ukrainian, still pro-Ukraine and it was still an invasion.

    Every single area of Ukraine, including Crimea, had voted to be a part of an independent Ukraine at the last free election.
    https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
    No not nihilism to give a concrete example....if I am burgalled and just want to make an insurance claim I call the police who will give me a crime number but nothing else....if I want my stuff actually back for whatever reason I don't call the police I call other people. Many take the seem route.

    As to mps, I accept there are a few good ones, maybe even more when they first come in but mostly they make out like bandits after they leave parliament. Now either they are pretending well or when they realise what they can make for selling out then most choose to make lots of money, same applies to senior civil servants.
    Well, some MPs go on to milk the system, but for every one that might do that there are 10 that do not. I know many MPs that have faced considerable financial hardship after leaving Parliament. It is one reason why I am so hostile to Johnson, who was milking before, during and after his Parliamentary career.

    The issue of the breaking of the system is not necessarily the fault of the Police- the insurers are guilty of placing a burden on our public services that they do not pay for.

    There is of course no doubt that public services need reform in the UK, but so does the private sector, and pointing fingers won´t solve anything. We need to set a reform agenda, and that means we need to talk across party lines too.

    Hard, but once the populist poo is expelled from the system, we will still need to live and work together.

    It is time for us to be a bit grown up about the serious problems we face, which is why Johnson should be told to just "go awayayayay" (c. Billy Connolly)
    Hang on how do you blame the insurance companies....its the police that actively choose not to investigate burglaries or car break ins....the insurance companies don't come into it. It is the justice system that on the rare occasion they are prosecuted that chooses to let the arseholes out on community service despite 50 previous offences....again nothing to do with the insurance companies

    I know damn well if someone breaks into my house and I object and their is a tussle and they get hurt it will be me the police and justice system goes after for it

    The system is broken and people are fed up with it and are increasingly taking justice into their own hands and you know tens of ex mps in financial hardship go on then name one
    I do not want to embarass people personally, but certainly a well known former Bristol MP, and several MPs in Scotland, who literally ended up in the UBO. Nick Palmer and many others can confirm this.

    Police paperwork for insurance claims is surprisingly large, and while it is clear that the Justice system is wildly underfunded, it is not always a matter of money, it is a matter of priorities
    Nick went and signed on but its not like he isnt making money within months that is more than most make.

    Who cares about the size of police paperwork for insurance claims, if we didn't have to ring them to get a claim number we wouldn't bother they are a passel of useless idiots who chase the easiest arrests as long as they don't need to move their lard asses of an office chair.

    Ring up the police, hey I got burglared I have cctv footage...they cut themselves so their is DNA, they left fingerprints on my glass table....response....would you like a crime number sir no further action taken.....misgender someone on twitter and there are 8 arseholes banging on your door
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,152

    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
    It's a start!
    Is Putin ending Prigozhin's Imperium in Gaul Ukraine?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
    Believe he meant "oh great" ironically.

    As for current situation under Mad Vlad's inspired "leadership" certainly number of parallels with the last days under the rule of Nitwit Nick.

    Which DID lead to more than just a power struggle within the regime . . .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,152

    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
    As long as I can can have some nuclear weapons from their stockpile. As novelty coffee tables. Obviously.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,956

    I know that I want this to be true so badly that there's no way I can make any sort of judgement as to the reliability of the report, but, please God let this be true.

    "NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦
    @NOELreports
    Channels associated with Wagner report that their camp was hit by a massive rocket attack. According to the reports of Wagners fighters, the attack was inflicted from the rear. Meaning Russian Federation forces would be behind this attack. Needs verification but sounds epic."


    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672312279646314496

    "Cloooud |🇺🇦
    @GloOouD
    Prigozhin said that the Russian Armed Forces launched a missile attack on the PMC «Wagner» camps.

    “A HUGE number of our comrades died, we will decide how to respond to this atrocity,” – Prigozhin"


    https://twitter.com/GloOouD/status/1672308145719238656

    If it was Ukrainian partisans who launched the rockets this could turn into one of the greatest deception operations in history. Glory to Ukraine!
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    FPT

    boulay said:

    glw said:

    Britain doesn’t do capital investment.
    The culture is against it.
    Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.

    I don’t really know why that is.
    But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.

    That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.

    It's utterly perplexing to me. Take the recent arguing about mortgages and how to help people. That's only treating the symptom. It's not the cause of the problem. The cause is a massive under supply of housing going back many decades. People in the UK spend too much money for too little crap housing, so that a return to moderate and normal interest rates is crucifying them.

    Where is the political party saying "we will build 5 million homes over the next decade to fix the supply problem"? There isn't one, the debate is about tweaks not anyone grasping the nettle to fix the problem.

    The UK population will pass 70 million within a couple of years — assuming population statistics are correct which given the Settled Status scheme uptake may not be the case — and we are nailed on for 80 million by 2050, unless something incredible happens to migration*.

    We need to build an enormous amount of everything. A building programme like nothing in living memory, probably even surpassing the post-war years.

    * Climate change is likely to make the UK even more attractive for migrants, so don't believe under 100,000 a year is plausible, we'll be lucky if we can keep it down to two or three times that.
    Of course the UK needs a massive house building programme but you need to overcome two problems in my non expert opinion. Firstly there needs to be at least a suspension or ban on non UK resident house purchasers, even if only new build.

    Secondly you need to get past the nimbys. The only way I can think of doing that is to tie development to council funding so each council gets govt financing to encourage building housing and if their targets aren’t met they get penalised financially from their next year’s overall budget so when people living in that council are faced with reduced services making their little nimby paradises less pleasant then they might have to start being less selfish.

    Council gets financial help to build, gets given a good argument to crush nimbyism and hopefully unbungs the system.
    Worth pointing out yet again that 90% of all housing development planning is passed first time by local councils and a further 5% is passed on appeal.

    So the idea that the vast underbuild is due to nimbyism is a myth. Yes nimbyism does of course exist but its power and influence is massively overstated. As long as the gap between planning permissions and builds keeps increasing by around 80 - 100K a year, planning is not the issue.
    Except your figures are wrong, and/or irrelevant.

    Firstly the percentage passed is largely irrelevant at best, since people only put in applications if they think they'll be passed. So all the potential that could have been built with a different system but no application was put in, is lost and not in your statistics.

    Secondly the 90% passed is a misnomer as it seems its the percentage of total applications and not residential construction. For residential developments its only 80%, despite my point above.

    Thirdly that 80% is inflated by the larger developers who can work the system better. For minor developments, which as we have discussed umpteen times ought to be able to compete better in a better system its a meagre 75% approved. Despite the fact people are put off from applying in the first place, a quarter of those that do apply are knocked back.

    Finally those 75% approvals include a pathetically low 5,300 approvals for just 1 home developments, and 2,200 approved homes [total] for 2 home developments. 7,500 single or two home approvals in a country of 67 million that needs 300k new homes a year is pathetically low and its because of the planning system despite your claims to the contrary.
    Not wrong. I get the figures direct from the LGA.

    You are clutching at straws because once again your blind hatred of a planning system, of which you continue to show complete ignorance, means you can accept no other reason for the failure to build enough houses.

    And by the way one of the representatives from the SME development firms was on Sky the other morning explaining that the main reason for the lack of building was not planning issues (what a surprise) but the difficulty in raising finance. But of course he is just one of the industry experts so what the hell does he know.
    You haven't understood the figures if you think residential approvals are 90%, because they're not.
    It is 87% in England for the most recent quarter but it is somewhere around the 90% mark in general.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/planning-applications-in-england-october-to-december-2022/planning-applications-in-england-october-to-december-2022

    What this doesn't account for is the cases that are withdrawn and then aborted rather than a refusal ever being issued - quite a lot of cases.

    As a general point I and many other people have tried to engage with you about planning but you reveal yourself to have a fixed set of beliefs that you keep repeating and which you are not open to being dissuaded from. But it matters little because land use and planning will not be deregulated in the way you want in the near future, because it would be so politically unpopular.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,477

    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
    25k heavily armed men vowing to overthrow the main military
    command sounds pretty close to me.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    edited June 2023

    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Would be great if it happens.

    Ideally the break-up of Russia would be preferable.

    But this is more of a power struggle than a Civil War from the sound of it.
    It's a start!
    The war began with the invasion of February 24th 2022, Estonia´s independence day. It would be a certain justice if the beginning of the end happens on the other major national holiday, which is today. Perhaps the Ukrainian victory may come by August 20th, the anniversary of the fall of the USSR, and Estonia´s "re-independence" day.

    I think the attack against Wagner might be pre-emptive, they were already rotating out from the battlefield. Still, couldn´t happen to a nicer bunch, and I am going to have another beer. Terviseks!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,656

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Interesting times.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited June 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Civil War?
    Oh great.
    Prigozhin sounds as though he's sh*tfaced on samogon.

    In any case, he's not sending a column to Moscow.

    He's saying the idea that Kiev was about to attack massively in the Donbas in February 2022 doesn't stand up, and that Putin should have negotiated with Zelensky. He possibly wants to reprise the growling general Alexander Lebed's performance which helped bring an end to the first Chechen war.

    I won't be surprised if Prigozhin gets offed. It's unlikely he's got FSB support given how he's undermining soldiers' morale.

    There are some outside Russia who jump for joy at the thought of another Russian civil war.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Britain Trump! He so is now.
    "BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. . ."

    Strange - Pagan2 is a lefty? Who'd've thunk it!
    I havent commented on johnson referencing the wrong poster maybe?

    You commented on the submersible tragedy, in manner that BoJo has labeled as left-wing sneering.

    Fuller quote: "JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride."
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,152
    rcs1000 said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Interesting times.
    Indeed

    image
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Cicero said:



    I do not want to embarass people personally, but certainly a well known former Bristol MP, and several MPs in Scotland, who literally ended up in the UBO. Nick Palmer and many others can confirm this.

    Police paperwork for insurance claims is surprisingly large, and while it is clear that the Justice system is wildly underfunded, it is not always a matter of money, it is a matter of priorities

    What is the UBO, sorry?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,558
    rcs1000 said:

    Full message of Prigozhin "declaring war on the Russian Ministry of Defence:

    "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped.

    They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back.

    Those, who destroyed today our guys, who destroyed tens, tens of thousands of lives of Russian soldiers will be punished.

    I’m asking: no one resist. Everyone who will try to resist, we will consider them a danger and destroy them immediately, including any checkpoints on our way. And any aviation that we see above our heads.

    I’m asking everyone to remain calm, do not succumb to provocations, and remain in their houses. Ideally, those along our way, do not go outside.

    After we finished what we started, we will return to the frontline to protect our motherland.

    Presidential authority, Government, Ministry of Internal Affairs, Rosgvardia, and other departments will continue operating as before.

    We will deal with those who destroy Russian soldiers. And we will return to the frontline.

    Justice in the Army will be restored. And after this, justice for the whole of Russia."


    https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672314259907158028

    Interesting times.
    It’s just completely inconsiderate to us who have second mortgages on our houses in Puglia. More war, it boils my piss. This Robert Wagner guy needs to wind his neck in.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,477

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Britain Trump! He so is now.
    "BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. . ."

    Strange - Pagan2 is a lefty? Who'd've thunk it!
    I havent commented on johnson referencing the wrong poster maybe?

    You commented on the submersible tragedy, in manner that BoJo has labeled as left-wing sneering.

    Fuller quote: "JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride."
    I wonder if there's a recklessly dangerous frontier pushing project he could embark upon?
    It would fill me with pride that's for sure.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
    Linky?
    https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1672243237237424128
    Not his finest hour and, frankly, with the benefit of hindsight admittedly, he should be accepting that he got this wrong. As did Merkel of course.
    There is a thing where any 'take' on the situation in Ukraine other than the correct one gets dismissed as 'pro Putin propoganda'.

    If you look at the popularity of Pro Russian parties in Ukraine Obama is correct in that it fell dramatically after 2014, because most of the most strongly Pro Russian areas in Ukraine effectively became part of Russia at this point, thus enabling a new Ukrainian identity to emerge that rejected Russia, and resulting in the response we saw in 2022.
    He's not remotely correct, the Ukrainian identity has existed for Centuries, there's nothing new about it.

    The areas that Russia invaded were the most strongly pro-Russian, but they were still Ukrainian, still pro-Ukraine and it was still an invasion.

    Every single area of Ukraine, including Crimea, had voted to be a part of an independent Ukraine at the last free election.
    I don't believe that anyone has actually watched the clip. Obama doesn't deny that Ukraine has a national identity. He says that it changed after 2014 so 2022 was different to 2014. My point is that if you can see this through the decline of pro Russian parties from 2014 onwards.

    This is not to say that Obama was right but he is making an valid point.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,126
    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cicero said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    I think you are dangerously wrong. You need to discriminate, because politicians are not "all the same". There are good MPs, and I would say that there are good MPs in all parties. The point is that if you want good public servants you need to do a minimum amount of work to identify the good guys versus the bad guys. Unless you are prepared to do that then your contempt is simple nihilism.

    Unfortunately the Populist far right is nothing except nihilism, and the good guys, even the really good guys, get told that they are worthless far too often.

    They problem is not them. Its you.
    No not nihilism to give a concrete example....if I am burgalled and just want to make an insurance claim I call the police who will give me a crime number but nothing else....if I want my stuff actually back for whatever reason I don't call the police I call other people. Many take the seem route.

    As to mps, I accept there are a few good ones, maybe even more when they first come in but mostly they make out like bandits after they leave parliament. Now either they are pretending well or when they realise what they can make for selling out then most choose to make lots of money, same applies to senior civil servants.
    Well, some MPs go on to milk the system, but for every one that might do that there are 10 that do not. I know many MPs that have faced considerable financial hardship after leaving Parliament. It is one reason why I am so hostile to Johnson, who was milking before, during and after his Parliamentary career.

    The issue of the breaking of the system is not necessarily the fault of the Police- the insurers are guilty of placing a burden on our public services that they do not pay for.

    There is of course no doubt that public services need reform in the UK, but so does the private sector, and pointing fingers won´t solve anything. We need to set a reform agenda, and that means we need to talk across party lines too.

    Hard, but once the populist poo is expelled from the system, we will still need to live and work together.

    It is time for us to be a bit grown up about the serious problems we face, which is why Johnson should be told to just "go awayayayay" (c. Billy Connolly)
    Hang on how do you blame the insurance companies....its the police that actively choose not to investigate burglaries or car break ins....the insurance companies don't come into it. It is the justice system that on the rare occasion they are prosecuted that chooses to let the arseholes out on community service despite 50 previous offences....again nothing to do with the insurance companies

    I know damn well if someone breaks into my house and I object and their is a tussle and they get hurt it will be me the police and justice system goes after for it

    The system is broken and people are fed up with it and are increasingly taking justice into their own hands and you know tens of ex mps in financial hardship go on then name one
    I do not want to embarass people personally, but certainly a well known former Bristol MP, and several MPs in Scotland, who literally ended up in the UBO. Nick Palmer and many others can confirm this.

    Police paperwork for insurance claims is surprisingly large, and while it is clear that the Justice system is wildly underfunded, it is not always a matter of money, it is a matter of priorities
    Nick went and signed on but its not like he isnt making money within months that is more than most make.

    Who cares about the size of police paperwork for insurance claims, if we didn't have to ring them to get a claim number we wouldn't bother they are a passel of useless idiots who chase the easiest arrests as long as they don't need to move their lard asses of an office chair.

    Ring up the police, hey I got burglared I have cctv footage...they cut themselves so their is DNA, they left fingerprints on my glass table....response....would you like a crime number sir no further action taken.....misgender someone on twitter and there are 8 arseholes banging on your door
    Look, Are you saying that MPs, who ought to be good enough to make a contribution in most aspects of life should not get jobs after they leave Parliament? I should hope they all will, I mean except Mad Nad obviously.
This discussion has been closed.