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Is it any wonder the Nadine peerage move has been stalled? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited June 2023
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    It looks like no opposition so far.

    If that press briefing from the British MoD is right, they are just moving quietly to moscow.

    I imagine Putin is extremely reluctant to get into open armed conflict with Wagner on Russian soil which couldn’t be described as anything but civil war. I bet he’s secretly negotiating his withered ass off with Prigozhin through ‘channels’, whether Big YVP is listening is another question.
    Its too late. He is not negotiating, he is losing.

    Rumours of an announcement of a transitional military government to be established in Miensk.
    That’s what it looks like.
    Ruthlessness is all in coup situations - react, or lose.
    Ruthlessness and popularity among the fives that matter. Hence the ease with which Erdogan put down the coup in 2016.

    We don’t want Wagner to win too easily though. They can be back in Ukraine quickly that way. Better a drawn out conflict somewhere between Rostov on Don and Moscow. Volgograd (Stalingrad), say.
    To be honest, I'm not sure a long and drawn-out conflict, and instability in Russia, would be good for anyone or too much of the world's safety.

    A better outcome would be that Wagner quickly installs someone else, who describes Ukraine as Putin's disaster, and then mainly leaves it.
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    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,135
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Won’t work the redundancy payments would destroy the first 2 years of savings.

    Also some departments are already stupidly short staffed - some HMRC helplines are currently closed for 3 months as the staff are needed elsewhere.
    AIUI there aren't actually enough managers in the health service. Someone with insider knowledge would be able to confirm, but quite a lot of senior clinicians' time is apparently chewed up by admin.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    It looks like no opposition so far.

    If that press briefing from the British MoD is right, they are just moving quietly to moscow.

    I imagine Putin is extremely reluctant to get into open armed conflict with Wagner on Russian soil which couldn’t be described as anything but civil war. I bet he’s secretly negotiating his withered ass off with Prigozhin through ‘channels’, whether Big YVP is listening is another question.
    Its too late. He is not negotiating, he is losing.

    Rumours of an announcement of a transitional military government to be established in Miensk.
    That’s what it looks like.
    Ruthlessness is all in coup situations - react, or lose.
    Ruthlessness and popularity among the fives that matter. Hence the ease with which Erdogan put down the coup in 2016.

    We don’t want Wagner to win too easily though. They can be back in Ukraine quickly that way. Better a drawn out conflict somewhere between Rostov on Don and Moscow. Volgograd (Stalingrad), say.
    That's assuming Wagner want to be back in Ukraine.

    After getting their ass handed to them in Bakhmut, its entirely possible that Wagner have decided that being in Africa etc is easier and more profitable than being in Ukraine facing Western munitions.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,875
    FF43 said:

    I guess one of the problems with committing your whole army to Ukraine is that no-one is left to defend the road to Moscow if a random mercenary army decides to turn against you.

    Caesar took Italy with a ridiculously tiny force.

    Mussolini started the March on Rome with about enough guys to fill a pub.

    Napoleon left Elba with a slack handful…
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Untrue. It was bloated, and was cut down to size and then some during the austerity years. It won't manage that again.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,210
    Eighth federal judge may withdraw from New Orleans Catholic church litigation
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/23/new-orleans-catholic-church-judge-recuse
    An eighth federal judge in New Orleans may withdraw from handling litigation involving the local Roman Catholic archdiocese as ties between the city’s legal elite and the church remain deep as ever.

    A New Orleans Catholic clergy abuse claimant, who is urging federal judge Jane Triche Milazzo to unseal secret files related to the self-confessed predator priest Lawrence Hecker, has demanded that the jurist recuse herself from his case over her publicly acknowledged donations to the church…




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    boulayboulay Posts: 4,141

    If Wagner are able to advance so quickly, doesnt this suggest some form of military acquiescence?

    If I were the military bods right now, would I even have the resources or the will to suppress a coup? The war is going badly, you’re demotivated, could it not be time for a change?

    Meanwhile Putin’s statement had a hint of desperation to it, I thought. It makes me wonder if he is truly fully in control of events.

    Fascinating to see turmoil in Russia again.

    If you are a National Guard soldier and you’ve had a bit of a cushy time barracked around Moscow with no threat of being sent to Ukraine and then it looks like Ukraine is coming to you and you will be fighting experienced and battle hardened Wagner chaps you might think “do I really want to die for Putin?”

    If they don’t want to risk their lives then it will be over.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,410
    We live in a blessed age of experts.


  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,210
    edited June 2023
    In the background, the war carries on.

    The Fighter Bomber channels claims that Russian military helicopters are allowed to operate from the Millerovo Airbase in Rostov but have to have a Wagner member on board to supervise (to make sure they aren't used against Wagner)
    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1672521927422877696
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,519
    It feels as dirty as supporting DeSantis over Trump but I suppose we have to be rooting for the ghastly 'Wagner' group if they've turned on Putin. Oh for a simpler world.
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    kinabalu said:

    It feels as dirty as supporting DeSantis over Trump but I suppose we have to be rooting for the ghastly 'Wagner' group if they've turned on Putin. Oh for a simpler world.

    I've always been a fan of "better the devil you don't know".

    Eventually you might end up with someone who's not a devil.

    Prigozhin sure is, but while we know Putin for a fact wants to fight in Ukraine, we don't know if Prigozhin does or not. He might decide that this is a way to end it all, blame Putin, and go back to having his men fight people they can bully in Africa instead of superior Western-trained and equipped forces.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    ohnotnow said:

    I wonder if we'll get one of our usual troll visitors today. If it's a half-decent one be interesting to hear the lines it pushes.

    Depends if there is anyone left in power to pay them....
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,551
    edited June 2023

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cicero said:

    It looks like no opposition so far.

    If that press briefing from the British MoD is right, they are just moving quietly to moscow.

    I imagine Putin is extremely reluctant to get into open armed conflict with Wagner on Russian soil which couldn’t be described as anything but civil war. I bet he’s secretly negotiating his withered ass off with Prigozhin through ‘channels’, whether Big YVP is listening is another question.
    Its too late. He is not negotiating, he is losing.

    Rumours of an announcement of a transitional military government to be established in Miensk.
    That’s what it looks like.
    Ruthlessness is all in coup situations - react, or lose.
    Ruthlessness and popularity among the fives that matter. Hence the ease with which Erdogan put down the coup in 2016.

    We don’t want Wagner to win too easily though. They can be back in Ukraine quickly that way. Better a drawn out conflict somewhere between Rostov on Don and Moscow. Volgograd (Stalingrad), say.
    To be honest, I'm not sure a long and drawn-out conflict, and instability in Russia, would be good for anyone or too much of the world's safety.

    A better outcome would be that Wagner quickly installs someone else, who describes Ukraine as Putin's disaster, and then mainly leaves it.
    I suspect, unless Putin wins absolutely and crushes the dissent totally, this is probably going to be the beginning of the end of the war in Ukraine. Exactly what will happen is difficult to work out, but even if Wagner is purged messily it will be difficult with rumblings of dissent to focus on the war effort.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,577
    edited June 2023

    kinabalu said:

    It feels as dirty as supporting DeSantis over Trump but I suppose we have to be rooting for the ghastly 'Wagner' group if they've turned on Putin. Oh for a simpler world.

    I've always been a fan of "better the devil you don't know".

    Eventually you might end up with someone who's not a devil.

    Prigozhin sure is, but while we know Putin for a fact wants to fight in Ukraine, we don't know if Prigozhin does or not. He might decide that this is a way to end it all, blame Putin, and go back to having his men fight people they can bully in Africa instead of superior Western-trained and equipped forces.
    Not really great for the people of Africa. At least the Ukrainians have the ability to fight back.

    The best hope is P and P take each other out and somebody half decent emerges from the wreckage.

    But Russian history suggests that is rather a forlorn hope. It was Kerensky and then Ulyanov who benefitted from the February Revolution, not Miliukov and Martov. Similarly it was Yeltsin not the followers of Sakharov that shaped Russia's destiny in 1991.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Nice try, but no.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs

    NHS admin is about 2 percent of the whole budget.

    NHS managers are about 3 percent of the workforce.

    Even if you think those numbers are too narrowly drawn, the idea that there are 20% easy cuts is for the birds. As well as pretty insulting to all the people who have made Sophie's Choice cuts rather than harvest all this supposed low hanging fruit.
    Of course there are 1.94 million NHS employees but 3.64 million who work for central government.

    So who says Max's 20% has to fall within the 1.94 million rather than the 3.64 million?

    20% may be an exaggeration but there's certainly room to act.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,241

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    pigeon said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    On your first point, definitely agree. The Conservatives are definitely at the Ou est la masse de manoeuvre? / Aucune stage. There is nobody else credible to fill Sunak's shoes if he and Hunt go. (Go on, who takes over if Sunak is run over by a bus this morning? Not easy, is it?)

    On the second, the government risk overusing a dangerous tool in the fight against inflation, and it's got a good chance of backfiring. Not so much because of the strikes (though encouraging public sector strikes in an election year is brave, in the Air Humphrey sense). But because everyone knows that schools hospitals councils etc simply can't get staff at the current pay rates. Some of the work I do is in teacher training, and we just aren't getting the applicants this year.

    If the government are concerned about the public sector pay bill, there are three broad ways out. One is to increase government income, which means growing the economy or raising taxes. Another is to accept that the state can't buy as much public service as it used to. Stop teaching Year 9 or something. The third is to try to get the suppliers (basically the staff) to cut their prices by a real terms pay cut. The third of those is perfectly valid, and has been happening fairly consistently for over a decade. But it's now got to the point where people aren't just saying it's harmful, it's really harmful.

    Far from being the right thing to do, it's chucking another unexploded bomb into Starmer's intray.
    I accept your comments, but none of your valid suggestions are practical, not least growing the economy when we are heading into a recession and tax rises are off the table apparently, including Starmer as per his comments yesterday

    The hard truth is many are going to struggle before things improve
    Essentially, the situation is this:

    *The politicians won't dare put up taxes to any meaningful extent
    *The politicians won't dare scrap gold plated universal pensioner benefits
    *The politicians won't dare let property prices crater
    *The politicians (and the utterly useless Bank of England along with them) are desperate to suppress the wages of the proles, but supremely relaxed about salary hyperinflation amongst very well-remunerated people of their own social class

    And these self-imposed restrictions apply equally to Government and Opposition.

    Basically, they're all equally committed to the maintenance of the current socio-economic system. Which means that the redistribution of our stagnant pool of wealth from poor people to rich people will continue unchecked, and the state, public services and living standards for the bulk of the population (especially those aged under about 50) will keep declining, with no prospect of any change at all.

    Again, once economic growth ends, prosperity becomes a zero-sum game. The only way for one group in society to continue to experience the gains in living standards that it has come to expect is through seizing the wealth of others and impoverishing them. Thus rentiers and pensioners suck the blood of young families and low paid workers.
    Let me guess, you rent and are youngish, only excuse for that lot of utter bollocks. Suck it up loser you will be old and on state pension one day, will see how rich you are then , greedy grasping bloodsuckers liek you would want your parents put down so you could get their hard earned cash.
    Morning Malc

    Getting seriously worried now about this shortage of turnips.
    It is all this sunshine, we are not used to it , was happy to get some rain last night.
    Apologies for my rudeness Ydoethur, Good Morning. Just got Wordle in 3 so good start , just have to hope my current bad run at horses comes to an end today.
    Two for me today. Second time this week.

    Definitely an aberration.
    well done , I had one 2 in last week.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,120

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Nice try, but no.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs

    NHS admin is about 2 percent of the whole budget.

    NHS managers are about 3 percent of the workforce.

    Even if you think those numbers are too narrowly drawn, the idea that there are 20% easy cuts is for the birds. As well as pretty insulting to all the people who have made Sophie's Choice cuts rather than harvest all this supposed low hanging fruit.
    The public sector has been subjected to real cuts now for 13 years. There really is nothing anywhere left to cut.

  • Options
    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,551

    kinabalu said:

    It feels as dirty as supporting DeSantis over Trump but I suppose we have to be rooting for the ghastly 'Wagner' group if they've turned on Putin. Oh for a simpler world.

    I've always been a fan of "better the devil you don't know".

    Eventually you might end up with someone who's not a devil.

    Prigozhin sure is, but while we know Putin for a fact wants to fight in Ukraine, we don't know if Prigozhin does or not. He might decide that this is a way to end it all, blame Putin, and go back to having his men fight people they can bully in Africa instead of superior Western-trained and equipped forces.
    It feels like Prigozhin or a Wagner puppet would certainly continue the gangster state hyper-nationalist politics in Russia. But their aim might be consolidation for a few years. Freeze the front if they can, or even extract from Ukraine with a view to cauterising the wound and suppressing dissent within current borders.

    They won’t be nice fellows to deal with though.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,316
    Video apparently of a Russian aircraft downed by Wagner forces:

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1672527572465332225
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953
    Is Mike on holiday again (wondering just how bad the Russian coup is going to get) ? 😂
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,410
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Untrue. It was bloated, and was cut down to size and then some during the austerity years. It won't manage that again.
    It should be a truth universally acknowledged that those calling for the public sector to be cut to the bone absolutely never moan about loads of potholes, plagues of rats, long hospital waiting times, delays in renewing passports & driving licences etc, etc.
  • Options
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Nice try, but no.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs

    NHS admin is about 2 percent of the whole budget.

    NHS managers are about 3 percent of the workforce.

    Even if you think those numbers are too narrowly drawn, the idea that there are 20% easy cuts is for the birds. As well as pretty insulting to all the people who have made Sophie's Choice cuts rather than harvest all this supposed low hanging fruit.
    The public sector has been subjected to real cuts now for 13 years. There really is nothing anywhere left to cut.

    There is, you just need to change policies. There's no room to act if you stick with the same policies.

    There are things the politicians ask the state to do which it could stop asking them to do. Do that, and you can cut employment accordingly, but unless or until that nettle is grasped its going to be hard to do any cuts.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,241
    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Any pay rise in public sector should be covered by productivity, government should just say sure you can have 10% pay rise , go ahead and pick the 10% who lose their jobs to pay for it.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,953

    This thread has been overthrown

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,130

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Nice try, but no.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs

    NHS admin is about 2 percent of the whole budget.

    NHS managers are about 3 percent of the workforce.

    Even if you think those numbers are too narrowly drawn, the idea that there are 20% easy cuts is for the birds. As well as pretty insulting to all the people who have made Sophie's Choice cuts rather than harvest all this supposed low hanging fruit.
    It's just bog standard ideological nonsense - my ideas would solve things super easily because x is bad.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,293
    @Suflaky
    Replying to @revishvilig
    The people that said Bakhmut is the Stalingrad of this war obviously didn't consider Stalingrad as a candidate.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,033
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Nice try, but no.

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/audio-video/key-facts-figures-nhs

    NHS admin is about 2 percent of the whole budget.

    NHS managers are about 3 percent of the workforce.

    Even if you think those numbers are too narrowly drawn, the idea that there are 20% easy cuts is for the birds. As well as pretty insulting to all the people who have made Sophie's Choice cuts rather than harvest all this supposed low hanging fruit.
    The public sector has been subjected to real cuts now for 13 years. There really is nothing anywhere left to cut.

    You can always find somewhere to cut — maybe the hereditary Lords? — but, yes, indeed. It is an incoherent fantasy that the public sector can be repeatedly cut back without the loss of public services.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,241

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    Yes and get rid of funding all those dodgy weirdo NGO's and stop paying crazy rents for people on welfare. No benefits for 2 years for immigrants and cut MP's expenses, HOL robbers etc. Make royals pay their own way for a change , no private planes , helicopters for MP's etc.
    Squeeze the barstewards till their pips sqeak.
    Sounds like a manifesto malc :-)

    I would clear the place Alan, a bonfire of the grifters and ne'er do wells
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,800
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    Yes and get rid of funding all those dodgy weirdo NGO's and stop paying crazy rents for people on welfare. No benefits for 2 years for immigrants and cut MP's expenses, HOL robbers etc. Make royals pay their own way for a change , no private planes , helicopters for MP's etc.
    Squeeze the barstewards till their pips sqeak.
    Sounds like a manifesto malc :-)

    I would clear the place Alan, a bonfire of the grifters and ne'er do wells
    boomers?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,120
    malcolmg said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Any pay rise in public sector should be covered by productivity, government should just say sure you can have 10% pay rise , go ahead and pick the 10% who lose their jobs to pay for it.
    Again there is literally nothing left to cut - the best solution for the NHS is to give staff massive pay rises because that will reduce the need for agency staff and when you start looking at agency / locum costs it would more than cover the cost of the extra staff and the extra pay.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,071
    Carnyx said:

    Lol, Kemi whining about ‘disinformation’ after literally mentioning a ‘pupil who identifies as a cat’ in her letter to OFSTED. Who’s disinforming who?

    https://twitter.com/mrjohnnicolson/status/1672511202688221184?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    I like Mr Nicholson's suggestion she's adopted the dead cat strategy. Rather apt.
    It's not a spoof story. A teacher called a child despicable and suggested they go to a different school because they had a binary view on sex. The cat element is a red herring.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,223
    NEW THREAD
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,875

    Talking of Boris, I think he's finally cracked. His Mail column today is a paean to the Titanic explorers who died, who were "pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge" - their exploration made him proud to be British and, of course he has a dig at "sneering lefties".

    But most remarkably, he claims the explorers were trying to "democratise the ocean floor". WTF?

    Well, punters paying $250,000 a pop to get what they want certainly sounds like BoJo's idea of democracy
    The actual business plan behind the sub was to make subs much cheaper than traditional DSVs. This would sell like hot cakes - first to existing companies (oil and gas say), then new companies taking advantage of the low costs to open new markets.

    This in turn mould mean mass production - at least by DSV standards - dropping the price further.

    There was a small flaw in the plan. The sub design was rubbish.

    This meant the traditional customers didn’t buy. Which meant the Titanic trips as a proving ground.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,653
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Lol, Kemi whining about ‘disinformation’ after literally mentioning a ‘pupil who identifies as a cat’ in her letter to OFSTED. Who’s disinforming who?

    https://twitter.com/mrjohnnicolson/status/1672511202688221184?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    I like Mr Nicholson's suggestion she's adopted the dead cat strategy. Rather apt.
    It was a purrfect pun.

    On a serious note, nobody who is worried about safeguarding would call in OFSTED. They haven't a clue what it is. Spielman literally can't define it. If you're worried about safeguarding you call the local authority.
    Regardless of your views on Ofsted, Badenoch's letter to Spielman calling for the school to be inspected is wholly inappropriate. As I understand it, the concerns are about one teacher, one lesson, that was leaked online - not about the school as a whole. You don't have an inspection about such a complaint. It is a matter for the Head and/or governors to deal with (and maybe the LA if it is an LA school).
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,682

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Yeah, firing doctors, nurses, policemen, firefighters and teachers is the way to go!

    Perhaps not.

    I could save you half a million in one hit. Sack Andrew Bailey.
    Or how about sacking all of the local council paper shufflers and NHS and DfE box tickers? The state now has 1m more people employed since 2016, are you seriously suggesting that services are better today than in 2016? What value have these extra million people provided to the public, they've added £50-60bn to the bill which means there's no room for public sector payrises or tax cuts for the rest of us.

    There's too many layers of management, too many consultants and too many agency workers. It's time for the public sector to slim down just as businesses are doing. More for less, which means cutting whole divisions of unproductive sectors.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,875
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    And HS2 isn't in itself unreasonable at all, because of the capacity expansion. Though arguably the way it is being chopped up is a hugely inefficient way to spend money (no link to HS1 early on, now ending at Old Oak, etc.)
    I suspect the reason it is being chopped up is to try and cancel it by stealth. Not because it is unnecessary - it's urgently needed for capacity, as you say - but because the DfT don't like railways and the Treasury don't like spending money.
    You may very well be right. (Though a cynic might also suggest that the big sums have been spent, so why bother with running the actual trains? Bo-ring, and no juicy directorships or profits).

    The DfT, with its approach to electrification, not least the increasingly common insistence that trains carry [edit] what are effectively diesel and electric locomotives around at the same time, not to mention batteries also it seems, does recall to mind the relationship between the Dept of Education and education as you portray it.
    Because of the absurd escalation in costs for installing overhead wire electrification, battery powered trains may very well win on cost grounds.

    Sure, you are hauling batteries around. But when you considered the zillions a mile that electrification costs..

    Bit like the discussion of battery storage for electrical power vs other methods - yes, battery storage may not be optimal, but it can be setup for a non insane price and doesn’t require a decade of planning
  • Options

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is the Tory figure correct in this tweet?

    "@BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+4)
    CON: 22% (-2)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    GRN: 8% (-)
    REF: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov, 20 - 21 Jun"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1672392589545283584

    Two Lab voters for every Tory, and enough left over to cover MOE.

    Can Sunak survive if he loses all the byelections?
    Good morning

    Sunak will lead into GE24 as changing leader again is not an option

    Apparently Sunak and Hunt have decided they will not implement next year's pay review bodies recommendations as they are inflationary

    It seems to me they know GE24 is lost but are putting the economy and the fight against inflation above all else

    Actually this is exactly what Starmer and Reeves must want as it is the right thing to do, will benefit everyone ultimately, and will see Starmer and Reeves in government in 24 with a good majority
    Yet the Triple Lock for pensioners goes ahead.

    Tories deserve wipeout, and may well get it..
    Is it time for a 0% freeze on all pensions, welfare, minimum wage, public sector pay for 2024 as a last ditch effort to control inflation? And cancel HS2 which is such a waste of money?
    And HS2 isn't in itself unreasonable at all, because of the capacity expansion. Though arguably the way it is being chopped up is a hugely inefficient way to spend money (no link to HS1 early on, now ending at Old Oak, etc.)
    I suspect the reason it is being chopped up is to try and cancel it by stealth. Not because it is unnecessary - it's urgently needed for capacity, as you say - but because the DfT don't like railways and the Treasury don't like spending money.
    You may very well be right. (Though a cynic might also suggest that the big sums have been spent, so why bother with running the actual trains? Bo-ring, and no juicy directorships or profits).

    The DfT, with its approach to electrification, not least the increasingly common insistence that trains carry [edit] what are effectively diesel and electric locomotives around at the same time, not to mention batteries also it seems, does recall to mind the relationship between the Dept of Education and education as you portray it.
    Because of the absurd escalation in costs for installing overhead wire electrification, battery powered trains may very well win on cost grounds.

    Sure, you are hauling batteries around. But when you considered the zillions a mile that electrification costs..

    Bit like the discussion of battery storage for electrical power vs other methods - yes, battery storage may not be optimal, but it can be setup for a non insane price and doesn’t require a decade of planning
    Batteries work.

    That's pretty much the reason batteries are replacing things in multiple sectors around the globe.

    The technology works, it can simply be done and just get on with it.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,682
    pigeon said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Won’t work the redundancy payments would destroy the first 2 years of savings.

    Also some departments are already stupidly short staffed - some HMRC helplines are currently closed for 3 months as the staff are needed elsewhere.
    AIUI there aren't actually enough managers in the health service. Someone with insider knowledge would be able to confirm, but quite a lot of senior clinicians' time is apparently chewed up by admin.
    But you're still falling for the trap of thinking this work is essential to the running of the health service. Let's get rid of the forms and boxes, automate where we can and sack half of the admin and management staff.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,875

    Unless, ofcourse, Russian military aviation is already onside with Wagner/Progozhin/, and whoever else, at the moment.

    It's all remarkably quiet, and relaxed for them so far. They just seem to be moving from town to town, every few hours.

    The first step in many South American coups was to get the airforce “on side”
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,700
    malcolmg said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Any pay rise in public sector should be covered by productivity, government should just say sure you can have 10% pay rise , go ahead and pick the 10% who lose their jobs to pay for it.
    Nobody can question your commitment to productivity Malc.

    The trouble the government have is that they couldn't enforce that even if they wanted to.

    Public sector staff can, will and already have, buggered off to other jobs or countries. As someone once said, they hold all the cards.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,193
    They should make a Michael Frayne-type film comedy out of this - cf Clockwise
    called "On the road to Moscow"
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,875
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    It looks like no opposition so far.

    If that press briefing from the British MoD is right, they are just moving quietly to moscow.

    I imagine Putin is extremely reluctant to get into open armed conflict with Wagner on Russian soil which couldn’t be described as anything but civil war. I bet he’s secretly negotiating his withered ass off with Prigozhin through ‘channels’, whether Big YVP is listening is another question.
    Its too late. He is not negotiating, he is losing.

    Rumours of an announcement of a transitional military government to be established in Miensk.
    Transitioning to what?

    Again, I cannot imagine the Belarusian military handing over to the rightful government. Not only are they Lukashenko's patsies but too many of them were involved in the crimes he committed to stay in power.
    The traditional thing to offer them is “support freedom/the revolution and you get a pardon for the past. Don’t, and the tribunal will have you against a wall in 20 minutes.”
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,272
    edited June 2023
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Ideological sackings at HMRC under Osborne mean that we've become far less efficient at extracting taxes from the shadier elements of the economy.
  • Options
    TresTres Posts: 2,272
    MaxPB said:

    pigeon said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    I can't believe the government would be so stupid as to freeze public sector pay (well maybe I could) next year. Their employees would not stand for it, and nor should they stand for it.

    Indeed, instead of a wage freeze the government needs to look at mass layoffs in order to increase pay. The public sector is unproductive and a major reason for it is that it is completely bloated. Sacking 20% of public sector employees would free up labour supply in the private sector, enable pay rises for the remaining 80% and allow for a big reduction in spending. I doubt anyone would notice either if the cuts were made among the army of do nothing paper shufflers.
    Won’t work the redundancy payments would destroy the first 2 years of savings.

    Also some departments are already stupidly short staffed - some HMRC helplines are currently closed for 3 months as the staff are needed elsewhere.
    AIUI there aren't actually enough managers in the health service. Someone with insider knowledge would be able to confirm, but quite a lot of senior clinicians' time is apparently chewed up by admin.
    But you're still falling for the trap of thinking this work is essential to the running of the health service. Let's get rid of the forms and boxes, automate where we can and sack half of the admin and management staff.
    You sound like that imploded submersible guy.
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    theakestheakes Posts: 845
    There will not be a by election, if she resigns the Commons she becomes a sort of nobody, neither an MP or a Dame/Lady, with no income from either.
This discussion has been closed.