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Is it any wonder the Nadine peerage move has been stalled? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,825
edited July 2023 in General
imageIs it any wonder the Nadine peerage move has been stalled? – politicalbetting.com

Of the 4 MPs who have recently announced their resignation there is one who has yet to take it the stage further and actually quit the House of Commons. As I write Dorries is still the Westminster MP for Mid Bedfordshire – my neighbouring constituency.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,521
    First.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,196
    Second like the Tories in Mid Beds
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    Wasn't it because she wanted to stay as an MP until the end of her term?
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,151
    Fourth like the Mid-Bedfordshire by-election.

    Or not.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,643
    RobD said:

    Wasn't it because she wanted to stay as an MP until the end of her term?

    Then she has a poor understanding of the term "resigning".
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,942
    I thought it was accepted she'd been knocked back because she'd neither resigned nor pledged to resign as an MP?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,127
    Sixth like the Tories in Mid Beds. If the trend continues
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,980
    It is little surprise that the behaviour of Johnson's apologist in chief is disgraceful. I wonder if HYUFD will make lame excuses for this member of the Boris Johnson Populist Front?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,196
    FF43 said:

    Sixth like the Tories in Mid Beds. If the trend continues

    That'll be seventh then ;-)
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,643
    edited June 2023
    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,986
    The NHS is broken part 94. Context - I had leukaemia in 2012, in remission since early 2013. Also asthmatic (mild). At one point I was told to shield, the letter arriving the day shielding ended. I’m pretty healthy.
    Two weeks ago was invited to get a covid booster. Today a message came about a vaccination clinic 1-4 pm. Raced home early from work made it at 3.50. Lady on reception asked if I had a booking. I said no, but was invited by text. She turned me away as I was not clinically extremely vulnerable. I could have asked to see a medic, but decided not, but went straight to the GP surgery to check. They confirmed I was eligible. I was also not the only one treated this way today.

    All too typical of a system that doesn’t quite work.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't it because she wanted to stay as an MP until the end of her term?

    Then she has a poor understanding of the term "resigning".
    I'm talking about why the committee rejected her.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,643
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't it because she wanted to stay as an MP until the end of her term?

    Then she has a poor understanding of the term "resigning".
    I'm talking about why the committee rejected her.
    Yes of course.
    Silly me.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    edited June 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,079
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    Talk TV? Tssk, even Jacob R-M is on GB News!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,598
    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 12,175
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't it because she wanted to stay as an MP until the end of her term?

    Then she has a poor understanding of the term "resigning".
    Maybe she has just re-signed 🤔
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 28,765
    Tory MP for Winchester decides not to contest the next general election.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-66001826
  • Options
    sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 181
    I didn't think it was because of her behaviour.After all she'd be in good company with the other MPs who were given honours. She wanted to stay as an MP until the election to avoid a by-election but the HLAC said these long gaps before taking up the peerage weren't OK.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,196

    The NHS is broken part 94. Context - I had leukaemia in 2012, in remission since early 2013. Also asthmatic (mild). At one point I was told to shield, the letter arriving the day shielding ended. I’m pretty healthy.
    Two weeks ago was invited to get a covid booster. Today a message came about a vaccination clinic 1-4 pm. Raced home early from work made it at 3.50. Lady on reception asked if I had a booking. I said no, but was invited by text. She turned me away as I was not clinically extremely vulnerable. I could have asked to see a medic, but decided not, but went straight to the GP surgery to check. They confirmed I was eligible. I was also not the only one treated this way today.

    All too typical of a system that doesn’t quite work.

    Sorry to hear that - it must have been extremely frustrating.

    I encountered a similar example of broken public services while helping a client who has been trying to get the DWP to reduce, and more recently, stop his Pension Credit (PC) as by his calculation he is no longer due it (because his savings have grown). Despite dozens of letters and phone calls they still keep paying the PC.

    When I called the Pensions Service, the agent there said they are so snowed under they can only action emergency issues - i.e. where an individual is not getting the money they are due. Overpayments and recalculations that will reduce payments just never get looked at. This client was mentally stressed by the overpayments and fearful he would have to pay it all back. I managed to get his payments stopped but when, if ever, the recalculation will be done who knows?

    I'd hate to think how much money this sort of thing is costing the country.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,643
    edited June 2023
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,306
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    You had asked "why has this information only just become public", which I assumed was referring to the information in the header.

    All those pieces of information were in the public domain prior to the publication of that article. The number of appearances, the lack of address on the parliamentary website, etc.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    fpt
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?

    It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement

    We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.

    Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.

    Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
    Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again

    I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
    The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.

    So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.

    I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
    Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
    Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
    That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make.
    I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
    Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
    That's a piece of hackneyed nonsense. It's not like that at all. It's just that people like me are sad about the hard tangible benefits of EU membership being tossed away in return for nothing but jingoistic hot air, red tape and hassle. There are no plusses whatsoever unless you count Boris Johnson and Liz Truss getting a crack at being PM as a plus.

    So, no, it was without doubt a terrible terrible decision we took 7 years ago today, but there's no big personal animus towards Leavers, either individually or as a group. Certainly not from me anyway. Although I will admit (being perfectly serious here) that if I was moving house there is no way I'd consider a place that voted for Brexit.
    The benefits of the EU haven't been tossed away for nothing though, we no longer pay for those benefits which frankly most leavers did not see as worth it. EU membership cost about 10£ bill a year, each and ever tax payer therefore was paying if we go on the adult population of the uk of around 45 million was costing us about 222£ a year.

    Most didnt use FoM, only 12% of gdp comes from exports half of which is to the eu so lets say 6% of exports. We were all paying to support tiny minorities of people and companies that benefitted from EU membership. Now speaking as someone who earns well south of a 6 figure salary unlike most of PB

    I couldnt afford to call in a plumber/electrician/au pair etc even during FoM and had to do it myself

    My rent continually raised because increased population

    Doctors waiting times went up because population went up by 10% with no extra doctors

    I didn't want to work in the EU or live in the EU

    Since FoM disappeared many people including me have for the first time in ages got pay rises because bosses can't just go fuck you plenty will do your job for less ( I was earning the same in 2002 as I was in 2016 despite changing jobs 3 times)

    So explain to me what was the advantage to me of the EU that I should pay 222£ a year (actually more when you consider about half the country doesnt actually pay income tax)
    There will be individuals who benefit and perhaps you're one of them. You know your circumstances better than me. However the net impact on the economy is negative. Theory said so before the event, practice says so after it. On top of that our influence in the world is reduced. Poorer, weaker, this is the reality of Brexit Britain. It isn't even delivering its USP (to Leavers) of lower immigration.

    I might still be ok with it if it were to lead to a significant sustainable redistribution of wealth in favour of the poor. But the claims that it's doing this are tosh as far as I can see. All we've got are damaged supply chains, worse terms of trade, chaotic labour shortages and embedded inflation. Very few Britons will emerge better off and those that do will be the usual suspects. Bet you any money that'll be the case.
    The economy doing better however is irrelevant for all those who get no benefit from it doing better. Unless you are trying to argue trickle down economics which would be bizarre for a self confessed lefty.

    If the gdp of the country doubles but I get no benefit from it and actually get poorer how does that help me? There are millions in that position living from hand to mouth while people keep telling them the country is getting richer off immigration while they are see escalating rents, minimum wage becoming maximum wage in many sectors, and decreasing services because more people are looking for housing jobs and services.

    Do I hold immigrants responsible? No I don't they are doing what is best for them. I am sure you can agree. However you also have to accept that the poor also have a right to do whats best for them not what is best for you and for many that was vote leave. This is why you lost.
    I like how you think you're in a good position to decide on why you think the EU referendum turned out the way it did when you can't even tell the difference between 6/100 and 6/26. You're an absolute mess.
    The fact remains regardless you could move to ireland pre eu, you still can because of the CTA so you lost nothing. Want to bugger off to ireland here is your coat. But no its irrelevant for eu fom
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,063
    edited June 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,172
    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?

    It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement

    We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.

    Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.

    Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
    Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again

    I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
    The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.

    So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.

    I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
    Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
    Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
    That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make.
    I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
    Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
    That's a piece of hackneyed nonsense. It's not like that at all. It's just that people like me are sad about the hard tangible benefits of EU membership being tossed away in return for nothing but jingoistic hot air, red tape and hassle. There are no plusses whatsoever unless you count Boris Johnson and Liz Truss getting a crack at being PM as a plus.

    So, no, it was without doubt a terrible terrible decision we took 7 years ago today, but there's no big personal animus towards Leavers, either individually or as a group. Certainly not from me anyway. Although I will admit (being perfectly serious here) that if I was moving house there is no way I'd consider a place that voted for Brexit.
    The benefits of the EU haven't been tossed away for nothing though, we no longer pay for those benefits which frankly most leavers did not see as worth it. EU membership cost about 10£ bill a year, each and ever tax payer therefore was paying if we go on the adult population of the uk of around 45 million was costing us about 222£ a year.

    Most didnt use FoM, only 12% of gdp comes from exports half of which is to the eu so lets say 6% of exports. We were all paying to support tiny minorities of people and companies that benefitted from EU membership. Now speaking as someone who earns well south of a 6 figure salary unlike most of PB

    I couldnt afford to call in a plumber/electrician/au pair etc even during FoM and had to do it myself

    My rent continually raised because increased population

    Doctors waiting times went up because population went up by 10% with no extra doctors

    I didn't want to work in the EU or live in the EU

    Since FoM disappeared many people including me have for the first time in ages got pay rises because bosses can't just go fuck you plenty will do your job for less ( I was earning the same in 2002 as I was in 2016 despite changing jobs 3 times)

    So explain to me what was the advantage to me of the EU that I should pay 222£ a year (actually more when you consider about half the country doesnt actually pay income tax)
    There will be individuals who benefit and perhaps you're one of them. You know your circumstances better than me. However the net impact on the economy is negative. Theory said so before the event, practice says so after it. On top of that our influence in the world is reduced. Poorer, weaker, this is the reality of Brexit Britain. It isn't even delivering its USP (to Leavers) of lower immigration.

    I might still be ok with it if it were to lead to a significant sustainable redistribution of wealth in favour of the poor. But the claims that it's doing this are tosh as far as I can see. All we've got are damaged supply chains, worse terms of trade, chaotic labour shortages and embedded inflation. Very few Britons will emerge better off and those that do will be the usual suspects. Bet you any money that'll be the case.
    The economy doing better however is irrelevant for all those who get no benefit from it doing better. Unless you are trying to argue trickle down economics which would be bizarre for a self confessed lefty.

    If the gdp of the country doubles but I get no benefit from it and actually get poorer how does that help me? There are millions in that position living from hand to mouth while people keep telling them the country is getting richer off immigration while they are see escalating rents, minimum wage becoming maximum wage in many sectors, and decreasing services because more people are looking for housing jobs and services.

    Do I hold immigrants responsible? No I don't they are doing what is best for them. I am sure you can agree. However you also have to accept that the poor also have a right to do whats best for them not what is best for you and for many that was vote leave. This is why you lost.
    I like how you think you're in a good position to decide on why you think the EU referendum turned out the way it did when you can't even tell the difference between 6/100 and 6/26. You're an absolute mess.
    The fact remains regardless you could move to ireland pre eu, you still can because of the CTA so you lost nothing. Want to bugger off to ireland here is your coat. But no its irrelevant for eu fom
    replied on the previous thread
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    I am a bit bemused by claims that "victims' remains may be left 'in peace where they are'" given that I imagine you would need a microscope to look at the largest remaining body parts. There doesn't seem to be much alternative.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,172
    Miklosvar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    I am a bit bemused by claims that "victims' remains may be left 'in peace where they are'" given that I imagine you would need a microscope to look at the largest remaining body parts. There doesn't seem to be much alternative.
    Sometimes the euphemistic way of saying it is preferable to... what you just did
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    kinabalu said:

    I thought it was accepted she'd been knocked back because she'd neither resigned nor pledged to resign as an MP?

    Apparently. Boris told it was fine, and she believed him, and is now made others are applying the rules as it turns out he was wrong.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?

    It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement

    We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.

    Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.

    Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
    Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again

    I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
    The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.

    So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.

    I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
    Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
    Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
    That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make.
    I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
    Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
    That's a piece of hackneyed nonsense. It's not like that at all. It's just that people like me are sad about the hard tangible benefits of EU membership being tossed away in return for nothing but jingoistic hot air, red tape and hassle. There are no plusses whatsoever unless you count Boris Johnson and Liz Truss getting a crack at being PM as a plus.

    So, no, it was without doubt a terrible terrible decision we took 7 years ago today, but there's no big personal animus towards Leavers, either individually or as a group. Certainly not from me anyway. Although I will admit (being perfectly serious here) that if I was moving house there is no way I'd consider a place that voted for Brexit.
    The benefits of the EU haven't been tossed away for nothing though, we no longer pay for those benefits which frankly most leavers did not see as worth it. EU membership cost about 10£ bill a year, each and ever tax payer therefore was paying if we go on the adult population of the uk of around 45 million was costing us about 222£ a year.

    Most didnt use FoM, only 12% of gdp comes from exports half of which is to the eu so lets say 6% of exports. We were all paying to support tiny minorities of people and companies that benefitted from EU membership. Now speaking as someone who earns well south of a 6 figure salary unlike most of PB

    I couldnt afford to call in a plumber/electrician/au pair etc even during FoM and had to do it myself

    My rent continually raised because increased population

    Doctors waiting times went up because population went up by 10% with no extra doctors

    I didn't want to work in the EU or live in the EU

    Since FoM disappeared many people including me have for the first time in ages got pay rises because bosses can't just go fuck you plenty will do your job for less ( I was earning the same in 2002 as I was in 2016 despite changing jobs 3 times)

    So explain to me what was the advantage to me of the EU that I should pay 222£ a year (actually more when you consider about half the country doesnt actually pay income tax)
    There will be individuals who benefit and perhaps you're one of them. You know your circumstances better than me. However the net impact on the economy is negative. Theory said so before the event, practice says so after it. On top of that our influence in the world is reduced. Poorer, weaker, this is the reality of Brexit Britain. It isn't even delivering its USP (to Leavers) of lower immigration.

    I might still be ok with it if it were to lead to a significant sustainable redistribution of wealth in favour of the poor. But the claims that it's doing this are tosh as far as I can see. All we've got are damaged supply chains, worse terms of trade, chaotic labour shortages and embedded inflation. Very few Britons will emerge better off and those that do will be the usual suspects. Bet you any money that'll be the case.
    The economy doing better however is irrelevant for all those who get no benefit from it doing better. Unless you are trying to argue trickle down economics which would be bizarre for a self confessed lefty.

    If the gdp of the country doubles but I get no benefit from it and actually get poorer how does that help me? There are millions in that position living from hand to mouth while people keep telling them the country is getting richer off immigration while they are see escalating rents, minimum wage becoming maximum wage in many sectors, and decreasing services because more people are looking for housing jobs and services.

    Do I hold immigrants responsible? No I don't they are doing what is best for them. I am sure you can agree. However you also have to accept that the poor also have a right to do whats best for them not what is best for you and for many that was vote leave. This is why you lost.
    I like how you think you're in a good position to decide on why you think the EU referendum turned out the way it did when you can't even tell the difference between 6/100 and 6/26. You're an absolute mess.
    The fact remains regardless you could move to ireland pre eu, you still can because of the CTA so you lost nothing. Want to bugger off to ireland here is your coat. But no its irrelevant for eu fom
    replied on the previous thread
    Yes missed it but the repoint remains brits could always move to ireland, still can despite eu or not eu so the only things that counts on eu vs not eu is countries we could just move to when in vs those that we cant now so the figure of 789k stands. A small infintesimal number of the population
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Farooq said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    I am a bit bemused by claims that "victims' remains may be left 'in peace where they are'" given that I imagine you would need a microscope to look at the largest remaining body parts. There doesn't seem to be much alternative.
    Sometimes the euphemistic way of saying it is preferable to... what you just did
    Oh OK sorry.

    If they did recover them the betting is they would cremate them and scatter the ashes in the ocean, so it all comes out in the wash.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,643
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    Well.
    He's certainly disrupted the sightseeing to the bottom of the deep ocean trade.
    Possibly terminally.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 12,172
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?

    It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement

    We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.

    Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.

    Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
    Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again

    I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
    The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.

    So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.

    I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
    Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
    Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
    That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make.
    I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
    Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
    That's a piece of hackneyed nonsense. It's not like that at all. It's just that people like me are sad about the hard tangible benefits of EU membership being tossed away in return for nothing but jingoistic hot air, red tape and hassle. There are no plusses whatsoever unless you count Boris Johnson and Liz Truss getting a crack at being PM as a plus.

    So, no, it was without doubt a terrible terrible decision we took 7 years ago today, but there's no big personal animus towards Leavers, either individually or as a group. Certainly not from me anyway. Although I will admit (being perfectly serious here) that if I was moving house there is no way I'd consider a place that voted for Brexit.
    The benefits of the EU haven't been tossed away for nothing though, we no longer pay for those benefits which frankly most leavers did not see as worth it. EU membership cost about 10£ bill a year, each and ever tax payer therefore was paying if we go on the adult population of the uk of around 45 million was costing us about 222£ a year.

    Most didnt use FoM, only 12% of gdp comes from exports half of which is to the eu so lets say 6% of exports. We were all paying to support tiny minorities of people and companies that benefitted from EU membership. Now speaking as someone who earns well south of a 6 figure salary unlike most of PB

    I couldnt afford to call in a plumber/electrician/au pair etc even during FoM and had to do it myself

    My rent continually raised because increased population

    Doctors waiting times went up because population went up by 10% with no extra doctors

    I didn't want to work in the EU or live in the EU

    Since FoM disappeared many people including me have for the first time in ages got pay rises because bosses can't just go fuck you plenty will do your job for less ( I was earning the same in 2002 as I was in 2016 despite changing jobs 3 times)

    So explain to me what was the advantage to me of the EU that I should pay 222£ a year (actually more when you consider about half the country doesnt actually pay income tax)
    There will be individuals who benefit and perhaps you're one of them. You know your circumstances better than me. However the net impact on the economy is negative. Theory said so before the event, practice says so after it. On top of that our influence in the world is reduced. Poorer, weaker, this is the reality of Brexit Britain. It isn't even delivering its USP (to Leavers) of lower immigration.

    I might still be ok with it if it were to lead to a significant sustainable redistribution of wealth in favour of the poor. But the claims that it's doing this are tosh as far as I can see. All we've got are damaged supply chains, worse terms of trade, chaotic labour shortages and embedded inflation. Very few Britons will emerge better off and those that do will be the usual suspects. Bet you any money that'll be the case.
    The economy doing better however is irrelevant for all those who get no benefit from it doing better. Unless you are trying to argue trickle down economics which would be bizarre for a self confessed lefty.

    If the gdp of the country doubles but I get no benefit from it and actually get poorer how does that help me? There are millions in that position living from hand to mouth while people keep telling them the country is getting richer off immigration while they are see escalating rents, minimum wage becoming maximum wage in many sectors, and decreasing services because more people are looking for housing jobs and services.

    Do I hold immigrants responsible? No I don't they are doing what is best for them. I am sure you can agree. However you also have to accept that the poor also have a right to do whats best for them not what is best for you and for many that was vote leave. This is why you lost.
    I like how you think you're in a good position to decide on why you think the EU referendum turned out the way it did when you can't even tell the difference between 6/100 and 6/26. You're an absolute mess.
    The fact remains regardless you could move to ireland pre eu, you still can because of the CTA so you lost nothing. Want to bugger off to ireland here is your coat. But no its irrelevant for eu fom
    replied on the previous thread
    Yes missed it but the repoint remains brits could always move to ireland, still can despite eu or not eu so the only things that counts on eu vs not eu is countries we could just move to when in vs those that we cant now so the figure of 789k stands. A small infintesimal number of the population
    yes, we've agreed on the numbers and I understand why you want to remove Ireland from the mix for the purposes of what you're talking about. My figures were exactly right but not relevant for what you want to talk about, so we should both just leave where we got to on the previous thread.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    When you start saying that is to reckless to allow where do you stop?

  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    fpt

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?

    It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement

    We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.

    Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.

    Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
    Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again

    I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
    The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.

    So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.

    I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
    Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
    Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
    That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make.
    I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
    Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
    That's a piece of hackneyed nonsense. It's not like that at all. It's just that people like me are sad about the hard tangible benefits of EU membership being tossed away in return for nothing but jingoistic hot air, red tape and hassle. There are no plusses whatsoever unless you count Boris Johnson and Liz Truss getting a crack at being PM as a plus.

    So, no, it was without doubt a terrible terrible decision we took 7 years ago today, but there's no big personal animus towards Leavers, either individually or as a group. Certainly not from me anyway. Although I will admit (being perfectly serious here) that if I was moving house there is no way I'd consider a place that voted for Brexit.
    The benefits of the EU haven't been tossed away for nothing though, we no longer pay for those benefits which frankly most leavers did not see as worth it. EU membership cost about 10£ bill a year, each and ever tax payer therefore was paying if we go on the adult population of the uk of around 45 million was costing us about 222£ a year.

    Most didnt use FoM, only 12% of gdp comes from exports half of which is to the eu so lets say 6% of exports. We were all paying to support tiny minorities of people and companies that benefitted from EU membership. Now speaking as someone who earns well south of a 6 figure salary unlike most of PB

    I couldnt afford to call in a plumber/electrician/au pair etc even during FoM and had to do it myself

    My rent continually raised because increased population

    Doctors waiting times went up because population went up by 10% with no extra doctors

    I didn't want to work in the EU or live in the EU

    Since FoM disappeared many people including me have for the first time in ages got pay rises because bosses can't just go fuck you plenty will do your job for less ( I was earning the same in 2002 as I was in 2016 despite changing jobs 3 times)

    So explain to me what was the advantage to me of the EU that I should pay 222£ a year (actually more when you consider about half the country doesnt actually pay income tax)
    There will be individuals who benefit and perhaps you're one of them. You know your circumstances better than me. However the net impact on the economy is negative. Theory said so before the event, practice says so after it. On top of that our influence in the world is reduced. Poorer, weaker, this is the reality of Brexit Britain. It isn't even delivering its USP (to Leavers) of lower immigration.

    I might still be ok with it if it were to lead to a significant sustainable redistribution of wealth in favour of the poor. But the claims that it's doing this are tosh as far as I can see. All we've got are damaged supply chains, worse terms of trade, chaotic labour shortages and embedded inflation. Very few Britons will emerge better off and those that do will be the usual suspects. Bet you any money that'll be the case.
    The economy doing better however is irrelevant for all those who get no benefit from it doing better. Unless you are trying to argue trickle down economics which would be bizarre for a self confessed lefty.

    If the gdp of the country doubles but I get no benefit from it and actually get poorer how does that help me? There are millions in that position living from hand to mouth while people keep telling them the country is getting richer off immigration while they are see escalating rents, minimum wage becoming maximum wage in many sectors, and decreasing services because more people are looking for housing jobs and services.

    Do I hold immigrants responsible? No I don't they are doing what is best for them. I am sure you can agree. However you also have to accept that the poor also have a right to do whats best for them not what is best for you and for many that was vote leave. This is why you lost.
    I like how you think you're in a good position to decide on why you think the EU referendum turned out the way it did when you can't even tell the difference between 6/100 and 6/26. You're an absolute mess.
    The fact remains regardless you could move to ireland pre eu, you still can because of the CTA so you lost nothing. Want to bugger off to ireland here is your coat. But no its irrelevant for eu fom
    replied on the previous thread
    Yes missed it but the repoint remains brits could always move to ireland, still can despite eu or not eu so the only things that counts on eu vs not eu is countries we could just move to when in vs those that we cant now so the figure of 789k stands. A small infintesimal number of the population
    yes, we've agreed on the numbers and I understand why you want to remove Ireland from the mix for the purposes of what you're talking about. My figures were exactly right but not relevant for what you want to talk about, so we should both just leave where we got to on the previous thread.
    sounds good before we bore people with a back and forth that neither of us can resolve for lack of info
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    The company, yes. Random users can't be expected to know the details.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 16,182
    On Topic - In my humble four decades of experience of political hackery, by far the MOST effective, telling electoral criticism of just about ANY incumbent of ANY party or persuasion, is . . . wait for it . . . a POOR ATTENDANCE RECORD.

    ESPECIALLY as documented by legislative roll-call records. Have helped bounce more than one chronic no-show out of a job on that basis.

    Why so effective? Because the average (or even sub-average) voter has little tolerance for habitual absenteeism by elected officials. (Even when objectively-speaking it may well be BETTER if they weren't around!)

    AND because it is a non-ideological, non-partisan demerit & critique. Pisses off the Woke and the Wack pretty much equally. Again, in my humble experience.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    edited June 2023
    "Why Progress isn’t feminist: Digital Prometheanism is not liberation", Mary Harrington, Unherd (sigh), March 2, 2023, see https://unherd.com/2023/03/why-progress-isnt-feminist/
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,021
    Nadine is a grasping idiot.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111

    Nadine is a grasping idiot.

    She is a politician you expected anything else?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    When you start saying that is to reckless to allow where do you stop?

    You follow common sense. Like MOT tests for cars: you have them, but only once a year.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    "Parents Are Having to Steal Formula Milk. Make It Free Again. Bring back National Milk." Sarah Woolley, Novara Media, 21 June 2023. See https://novaramedia.com/2023/06/21/parents-are-having-to-steal-formula-milk-make-it-free-again/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    Miklosvar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    When you start saying that is to reckless to allow where do you stop?

    You follow common sense. Like MOT tests for cars: you have them, but only once a year.
    You are suggesting mot's for home built submarines? How does that even work when they can get built and deployed in many other countries.
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    And the life of a 19 year old who trusted his judgement.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,663
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    Pythom

    Not a typo
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,947
    edited June 2023
    Talking of Boris, I think he's finally cracked. His Mail column today is a paean to the Titanic explorers who died, who were "pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge" - their exploration made him proud to be British and, of course he has a dig at "sneering lefties".

    But most remarkably, he claims the explorers were trying to "democratise the ocean floor". WTF?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080

    Nadine is a grasping idiot.

    As statements of the bleeding obvious go....
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,783
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 26,010
    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    And by the looks of it zero support from their MP for any constituents in her constituency.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    Pythom

    Not a typo
    no a reference to the swedish company
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Pagan2 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    When you start saying that is to reckless to allow where do you stop?

    You follow common sense. Like MOT tests for cars: you have them, but only once a year.
    You are suggesting mot's for home built submarines? How does that even work when they can get built and deployed in many other countries.
    There are international conventions governing these things, irrespective of where you build and operate them. Planes have certificates of airworthiness, ships (and indeed proper submarines and submersibles) are classed by DNV or the ABS.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 45,663
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Yes, I was just reading that. It really does beggar belief. There's nothing wrong with innovating and breaking things, but you can't be so blase about breaking humans, especially when those humans are commercial passengers who may not fully appreciate the risks involved. And an ego the size of a planet.
    Disruptors and innovators are, of course, necessary things. But everything in moderation (including moderation). Some just fall in love with how disruptive they are, and boldness gives way to utter recklessness.
    They were utterly reckless. It was however their choice
    Pythom

    Not a typo
    no a reference to the swedish company
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/pythom-space-tests-its-rocket-with-questionable-safety-practices/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,783
    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    Or the year after...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    But Boris did self destruct.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,490
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    And by the looks of it zero support from their MP for any constituents in her constituency.
    And there's nothing they can do to get rid of her, of course, given that there's no minimum service obligation placed upon MPs. AIUI a sufficiently shameless chancer could, in theory, get themselves elected and then never set foot in the Palace of Westminster, or in the constituency, or have any interaction with a constituent, even once.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    And by the looks of it zero support from their MP for any constituents in her constituency.
    With O'Mara gone the very low bar to not be the worst MP has been raised.

    Speaking of bad MPs, I see Warburton is totally favour of MeToo, oh my yes, it's just when he was hit by allegations that he realised it had gone too far.

    And look, he never did anything that bad, just being a cokehead and not disclosing 150k loans.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-65985598
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    pigeon said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    And by the looks of it zero support from their MP for any constituents in her constituency.
    And there's nothing they can do to get rid of her, of course, given that there's no minimum service obligation placed upon MPs. AIUI a sufficiently shameless chancer could, in theory, get themselves elected and then never set foot in the Palace of Westminster, or in the constituency, or have any interaction with a constituent, even once.
    No 'in theory' about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_O'Mara
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Why has this information only just become public?
    I'd like to see a system where MP's need to log and evidence hours worked, what they did, and how it was relevant to their role as an MP.
    Rather like job seekers.
    And for those details to be scrutinised and then published.

    That information is in the public domain. It's easy to find out when someone last made a contribution, or how many votes they have attended:

    https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/42267&showall=yes

    As for her being on TalkTV, that was hardly a secret.
    No it isn't.
    That's just what someone does in the HofC.
    I wouldn't care if my MP never spoke there because they were hard at work on constituency surgeries, engaging with community groups and advocating for investment.
    She doesn't appear to be doing much of any of that.
    That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see recorded and published.
    There are lots of reasons for me to hold my current MP, Chris Walsh, in contempt. I have absolutely no idea what his attendance record is but every day he stays away from Westminster is probably a good day.
    Like most I dont differentiate

    I hold all of parliament in contempt
    I hold the justice system in contempt
    I hold the police in contempt
    I hold our public services in contempt

    I am far from alone in this attitude
    We have had enough
    A good example of this in my own field: https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/covid-court-case-backlog-means-prisoners-are-serving-entire-sentence-on-remand-then-being-released-with-no-money-and-nowhere-to-go-karyn-mccluskey-4193089

    The backlog is such that those on remand have often served any sentence before the court finds them guilty. If they are found not guilty, well. The charity which has generated this story make a very good point. We are fairly well geared for those released from prison, from the court not so much.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,783
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,054
    HYUFD said:

    So until we have Baroness Dorries, it looks like there will be no by election in mid bedfordshire. Which likely means no election there until the national election next year

    There will not be a Baroness Dorries before or after the next election
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    edited June 2023
    "The Culture War Doesn’t Exist. Call it what it is: class war.", Amardeep Singh Dhillon, Novara Media, 19 April 2023, see https://novaramedia.com/2023/04/19/the-culture-war-doesnt-exist/
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    edited June 2023
    "America Is Headed Toward Collapse: History suggests how to stave it off", Peter Turchin, The Atlantic, Jun 2, 2023, see https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-societal-trends-institutional-trust-economy/674260/
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    No, but the victims of a suicide bomber are not there by choice.
    Another baffling atittude. Do you believe people, even if they have to sign waivers, should have zero expectation the service provider has been acting appropriately? Are there not many legal examples of companies having some responsibility, even if they warn people in placeholder text.

    As for 'leave him alone', that's just nonsense. Right now, when there is so much attention, is a very good moment to get information into the open if the company was acting recklessly. It will all come out anyway, but what harm knowing this sort of detail now? Who knows how the company and others in it might otherwise drag things out and obfuscate. It's not just about him.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    (sorry, just posting my reading list for the weekend. One day I hope to have fun like real people... :) )
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    Was not one of the passengers the son on someone who invited him along. Do you really think he knew the risks as to cave divers....yes done it a couple of times and you are correct absolute nutters but the risk was spelled out in full if anything they exaggerated.

    If you understand the risks go for it is my view. My suspicion is the guy really down played them
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    edited June 2023
    viewcode said:

    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626

    We already have a word for this, it's called psychohistory

    Instead, the adherents of cliodynamics treat historical record just as, say, evolutionary biologists treat the palaeontological record. Theories are constructed and based on general principles and tested empirically with comprehensive databases. In short, we use the standard scientific method that worked so well in physics, biology, and many social science


    I'll just wait for Annales types to weigh in.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,783
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    Was not one of the passengers the son on someone who invited him along. Do you really think he knew the risks as to cave divers....yes done it a couple of times and you are correct absolute nutters but the risk was spelled out in full if anything they exaggerated.

    If you understand the risks go for it is my view. My suspicion is the guy really down played them
    But that's merely your suspicion.
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    And the people who are good at it are all absolute safety obsessives because they have to be. Go down to your local sky diving club and give them a few Rushsms about how rules are for losers, you are remembered for the ones you break, etc, and see how impressed they are, and eager to have you on the team. Nobody here is saying you can't go Titanic diving, they are saying off you go but you bloody well Do It Right.

    Which spookily enough is the actual motto of the world cave diving fraternity

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_It_Right_(scuba_diving)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,783
    viewcode said:

    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626

    The Poverty of Historicism says hello.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 93,627
    edited June 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    Was not one of the passengers the son on someone who invited him along. Do you really think he knew the risks as to cave divers....yes done it a couple of times and you are correct absolute nutters but the risk was spelled out in full if anything they exaggerated.

    If you understand the risks go for it is my view. My suspicion is the guy really down played them
    Yes, the issue is that they may well have known there was a risk, of course there was, but did they have sufficient information to assess the risk level, and did the company act in a way to increase it without making that clear?

    It seems awfully trusting to assume everyone did have all the risk knowledge they needed. That will come out in time, but it's bit blase to assume it.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,111
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    Was not one of the passengers the son on someone who invited him along. Do you really think he knew the risks as to cave divers....yes done it a couple of times and you are correct absolute nutters but the risk was spelled out in full if anything they exaggerated.

    If you understand the risks go for it is my view. My suspicion is the guy really down played them
    But that's merely your suspicion.
    time will tell. Everything i have heard though about discarded warnings indicates so.
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,717
    Andy_JS said:

    Tory MP for Winchester decides not to contest the next general election.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-66001826

    I think this has been something that was a possibility for a while, made more likely by the current state of the Tories. I know the chap who was on the slate to stand for them if this happened and he is amazing. He has links to Winchester but is someone who has actually spent his career doing something very good for the world/society.

    I haven’t seen him for over a year but he did get more responsibility in his high level role relatively recently so will be very interesting if he has an agreement with his current role that he can stand and if he loses, as looks likely, then no problem.

    If I speak to him I will ask and if he’s ok with it then post about it here.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,214
    viewcode said:

    "Trump, Johnson and the real problem with populism: Helped to power by mainstream conservatives, this is a movement whose leaders cannot be expected to self-destruct". Jan-Werner Müller JUNE 17 2023, the Financial Times. See https://www.ft.com/content/a8c60111-09a7-4264-a503-a03e55394b70?sharetype=blocked

    Seeing Barack Obama earnestly repeating Kremlin talking points today should serve as a reminder that so much of what is said about populism is total projection from a discredited political class that still hasn't learned a thing from the last few years.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626

    We already have a word for this, it's called psychohistory

    Instead, the adherents of cliodynamics treat historical record just as, say, evolutionary biologists treat the palaeontological record. Theories are constructed and based on general principles and tested empirically with comprehensive databases. In short, we use the standard scientific method that worked so well in physics, biology, and many social science


    I'll just wait for Annales types to weigh in.
    I had actually encountered the psychohistory/cliodynamics crossover: see https://youtu.be/xWWnUzV2NmU?t=2028
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,490
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    No, it was tourism gone wrong.

    Still, having been paid a fortune to generate drivel for the Mail, I suppose that Boris Johnson is at least keeping his end of the bargain.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,293
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Sid and Boris
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Titan sub CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries', emails show
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65998914
    ...In messages seen by the BBC, Rob McCallum told OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush that he was potentially putting his clients at risk and urged him to stop using the sub until it had been classified by an independent body.
    Mr Rush responded that he was "tired of industry players who try to use a safety argument to stop innovation".
    The tense exchange ended after OceanGate's lawyers threatened legal action, Mr McCallum said.
    "I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic," he wrote to the OceanGate boss in March 2018. "In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: 'She is unsinkable'".
    In the messages, Mr Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
    Mr McCallum told the BBC that he repeatedly urged the company to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was never certified or classed.
    "Until a sub is classed, tested and proven it should not be used for commercial deep dive operations," he wrote in one email.
    "I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative," he added. "As much as I appreciate entrepreneurship and innovation, you are potentially putting an entire industry at risk."..

    Even these pettifogging bureaucrats are right sometimes. But the man has paid with his life. Leave him alone.
    He also took several other people with him, do we give a suicide bomber leeway because he paid with his life?
    I'll tell you what: you find him and I'll pay for the private prosecution.
    I didnt say he should be prosecuted for the obvious fact he is like a dodo, I merely asserted we shouldn't leave him alone because he did cause the death of others who I am confident he gave assurances that his sub was safe.

    If I gave people a lift in a car while knowing the brakes were faulty but assumed it would be fine and we crashed and killed me and all the others are you saying I should not be held culpable?
    How do you know that?

    I have a friend who cave dives. (Nutter.) And the first time he went down, it was drilled into him that it was an incredibly dangerous, and that even with the best preparations in the world, he could well die.

    The guy who did this was negligent, probably highly negligent, and that negligence led to the deaths of a number of people.

    But people - so long as they understand the risks - are allowed to go base jumping and cave diving and to try and climb mount Everest.
    Was not one of the passengers the son on someone who invited him along. Do you really think he knew the risks as to cave divers....yes done it a couple of times and you are correct absolute nutters but the risk was spelled out in full if anything they exaggerated.

    If you understand the risks go for it is my view. My suspicion is the guy really down played them
    But that's merely your suspicion.
    It isn't, the smokingest guns since guns took up the tobacco habit are already out there, only 5 days in.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,054
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    I do not recognise visiting the site of the sunken Titanic as pushing the frontiers of knowledge, but just a very expensive tourist jaunt that frankly shows absolutely no respect for those who lost their lives on the Titanic and is their last resting place

    May they all rest in peace
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    Dear Boris

    Whether lefties sneer or not, you're still a fat lying cowardly twat.

    Yours

    The British People.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,752
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    "Cliodynamics: can science decode the laws of history?", Peter Turchin, Aug 16, The Conversation, see https://theconversation.com/cliodynamics-can-science-decode-the-laws-of-history-8626

    The Poverty of Historicism says hello.
    I think I know what you mean, but can you pretend I'm a bit stupid and explain it to me in shortish words? :)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    What on earth is he talking about? This was a slightly ghoulish tourist trip.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392
    Well played Tammy Beaumont, 100 from 152.
  • Options
    CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Boris is a fucking c*nt and a prick. Fuck the fat prick
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    What on earth is he talking about? This was a slightly ghoulish tourist trip.
    A question most of us have asked about him, particularly after the second works meeting.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    ydoethur said:

    Well played Tammy Beaumont, 100 from 152.

    A really classy performance. I am enjoying watching it.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392

    Boris is a fucking c*nt and a prick. Fuck the fat prick

    It continues to puzzle me so many women do.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    What on earth is he talking about? This was a slightly ghoulish tourist trip.
    Maybe omit 'slightly'
    You know me, Big G, always trying to be the man on the Clapham Omnibus.
  • Options
    MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    HYUFD said:

    BORIS JOHNSON: Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227209/BORIS-JOHNSON-brave-souls-Titan-sub-died-cause-fills-pride.html

    This is a triumph for the left, actually. "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce".

    Who said that?
This discussion has been closed.