politicalbetting
Home› General

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Sign In Register

Categories

Options

Opinium finds double-digit LAB leads whoever becomes PM – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited July 2022 in General
Opinium finds double-digit LAB leads whoever becomes PM – politicalbetting.com

?BREAKING – NEW POLLING?None of the #ConservativeLeadershipContest candidates have won over the public yet, with a Labour government under Keir Starmer…> … leading a Sunak govt by 11 pts> … leading a Mordaunt govt by 12 pts> … leading a Truss govt by 14 pts pic.twitter.com/Nwybw9BBAD

Read the full story here

«13456789

Comments

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    edited July 2022
    First like Sunak today.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    Second like Rishi with the members.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    3rd rate like PM Truss.....
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Way too early to call that.

    Could be much worse.

    Or better, of course. That's also possible.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    edited July 2022
    4th like Badenoch..

    5th like Tom Tugs
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,319
    Its official - the Tories need to elect the Trusster. What a winner!!!!
  • Options
    theoldpoliticstheoldpolitics Posts: 242
    Redfield & Wilton have Mordaunt within 6 on your preferred "Best PM" measure, but the MPs seem likely to give the membership a choice between the two who are double digits behind on that measure too.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    edited July 2022
    theoldpolitics said:

    Redfield & Wilton have Mordaunt within 6 on your preferred "Best PM" measure, but the MPs seem likely to give the membership a choice between the two who are double digits behind on that measure too.

    Whoever has been running Mordaunt's twitter account has done the most abominable job possible. Quite possibly sunk her - she should have taken back personal control a while back or let a more competent lot do it.
    At least Truss has pretended to run her own.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,320
    edited July 2022
    Did BoJo have a good final PMQs then?

    Didn't watch since I don't like to see him.
  • Options
    ThePoliticalPartyThePoliticalParty Posts: 446
    What is this deleted Penny tweet?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907
    edited July 2022
    Just seen the tweet:

    "Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    for some reason Penny Mordaunt has deleted the tweet about her rivals wanting to murder the Tory party"

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1549678682352062464

    They weren't her words originally, she re-tweeted a Telegraph headline with those words.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    edited July 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    theoldpolitics said:

    Redfield & Wilton have Mordaunt within 6 on your preferred "Best PM" measure, but the MPs seem likely to give the membership a choice between the two who are double digits behind on that measure too.

    Whoever has been running Mordaunt's twitter account has done the most abominable job possible. Quite possibly sunk her - she should have taken back personal control a while back or let a more competent lot do it.
    At least Truss has pretended to run her own.
    “Vote for me, or the party gets it.”
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    I do know somebody (local party official) who is going to write in for Badenoch.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,513
    edited July 2022
    The final round of MPs voting runs this afternoon from 1 to 3pm; results due 4pm.

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.04 Liz Truss 49%
    2.62 Rishi Sunak 38%
    7 Penny Mordaunt 14%
    300 Dominic Raab
    340 Keir Starmer

    Next Conservative leader
    2.02 Liz Truss 50%
    2.72 Rishi Sunak 37%
    6.8 Penny Mordaunt 15%

    To be in final two
    1.02 Rishi Sunak 98%
    1.27 Liz Truss 79%
    3.8 Penny Mordaunt 26%
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    theoldpolitics said:

    Redfield & Wilton have Mordaunt within 6 on your preferred "Best PM" measure, but the MPs seem likely to give the membership a choice between the two who are double digits behind on that measure too.

    They have seen them close up and worked with them. It is their duty to find the 2 most capable (and let's face it, in this field that was no easy task).
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Mark, I quite like the US write-in system. I may be biased, however, having received electoral support once to become Governor of California.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,776
    All pretty margin of error.

    What any prospective leader does in office will rapidly change numbers from this more than the margin of error differences between them today.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    edited July 2022
    Has this become SNP questions to PM?

    And how come the only issue that they want to raise is independence? It's almost as though they have nothing else to say... ;)

    Edit: another SNPer (the hon. member for Ochil), but he did not ask something about independence! My goodness!
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,979
    Pulpstar said:

    theoldpolitics said:

    Redfield & Wilton have Mordaunt within 6 on your preferred "Best PM" measure, but the MPs seem likely to give the membership a choice between the two who are double digits behind on that measure too.

    Whoever has been running Mordaunt's twitter account has done the most abominable job possible. Quite possibly sunk her - she should have taken back personal control a while back or let a more competent lot do it.
    At least Truss has pretended to run her own.
    Perhaps the tweet was intentional. What really did she have to lose by reminding Tory MPs that the others are likely to do worse against Labour.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    edited July 2022
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.04 Liz Truss 49%
    2.62 Rishi Sunak 38%
    7 Penny Mordaunt 14%
    300 Dominic Raab
    340 Keir Starmer

    Next Conservative leader
    2.02 Liz Truss 50%
    2.72 Rishi Sunak 37%
    6.8 Penny Mordaunt 15%

    To be in final two
    1.02 Rishi Sunak 98%
    1.27 Liz Truss 79%
    3.8 Penny Mordaunt 26%

    That 1.02 could be worth a lay.

    There’s always the chance that the Machevellian manoeuvrings backfire, and it’s probably shorter than 50/1.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Just an aside, but if Sunak does become PM it may mean an end to the tedious and wrong 'he who wields the knife never wears the crown' bullshit the media peddles.
  • Options
    ThePoliticalPartyThePoliticalParty Posts: 446
    That Southend MP needs removing

    Awful

    Just awful
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,513
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.04 Liz Truss 49%
    2.62 Rishi Sunak 38%
    7 Penny Mordaunt 14%
    300 Dominic Raab
    340 Keir Starmer

    Next Conservative leader
    2.02 Liz Truss 50%
    2.72 Rishi Sunak 37%
    6.8 Penny Mordaunt 15%

    To be in final two
    1.02 Rishi Sunak 98%
    1.27 Liz Truss 79%
    3.8 Penny Mordaunt 26%

    That 1.02 could be worth a lay.

    There’s always the chance that the Machevellian manoeuvreings backfire, and it’s probably shorter than 50/1.
    A trader with balls of steel could have made a bit as Rishi has been bouncing between 1.01 and 1.02 over the last few days.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,563
    I think that, like the membership multiple match up polls, such polls aren’t worth much. There is a history of such multiple match up polls being fairly often wrong, I believe.

    OT - the Czech F35 deal may relate to https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-may-finally-get-slovakias-mig-29s-thanks-to-czech-air-patrol-deal
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    edited July 2022
    One of the great things about PB is reading the comments of labour/lib dem supporters fretting about tory prospects under Liz Truss....
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Just an aside, but if Sunak does become PM it may mean an end to the tedious and wrong 'he who wields the knife never wears the crown' bullshit the media peddles.

    Its a compelling argument for voting for him.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907
    ThePoliticalParty said:

    That Southend MP needs removing

    Awful

    Just awful

    She's just been elected to replace David Amess.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,371
    Kemi still maintaining radio silence as to her choice?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Does Sir Edward Leigh count as a Person of Colour?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Good swansong from Boris
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    Boris closing remarks. “Mission largely accomplished…. For now”.

    Hmmm…
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907
    nico679 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    theoldpolitics said:

    Redfield & Wilton have Mordaunt within 6 on your preferred "Best PM" measure, but the MPs seem likely to give the membership a choice between the two who are double digits behind on that measure too.

    Whoever has been running Mordaunt's twitter account has done the most abominable job possible. Quite possibly sunk her - she should have taken back personal control a while back or let a more competent lot do it.
    At least Truss has pretended to run her own.
    Perhaps the tweet was intentional. What really did she have to lose by reminding Tory MPs that the others are likely to do worse against Labour.
    Because Tory MPs who are wavering between the candidates won't be impressed by the use of that word, even though it was penned by Allison Pearson.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,320
    Sandpit said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.04 Liz Truss 49%
    2.62 Rishi Sunak 38%
    7 Penny Mordaunt 14%
    300 Dominic Raab
    340 Keir Starmer

    Next Conservative leader
    2.02 Liz Truss 50%
    2.72 Rishi Sunak 37%
    6.8 Penny Mordaunt 15%

    To be in final two
    1.02 Rishi Sunak 98%
    1.27 Liz Truss 79%
    3.8 Penny Mordaunt 26%

    That 1.02 could be worth a lay.

    There’s always the chance that the Machevellian manoeuvreings backfire, and it’s probably shorter than 50/1.
    Laying Truss at evens is good imo because I think it's circa 40% she doesn't make the Final and circa 40% she loses to Sunak if she does. So she should be about 2/1.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,904
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Just an aside, but if Sunak does become PM it may mean an end to the tedious and wrong 'he who wields the knife never wears the crown' bullshit the media peddles.

    Indeed, but I suspect he will wear the crown in the same way as Macbeth. The Boris hardcore will undermine him. Their nightmare scenario would be him winning in 24.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,319
    Hasta La Vista Boris
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,322
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Just an aside, but if Sunak does become PM it may mean an end to the tedious and wrong 'he who wields the knife never wears the crown' bullshit the media peddles.

    Didn't Michael Heseltine coin that phrase, thinking it was a quotation from classical sources (but he probably just made it up)?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,319
    He won't be back
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907
    Tony Blair got a standing ovation from all side of the HoC. Johnson only from his own side.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,574
    Watching PMQs, I thought Boris went out with a whimper rather than a bang. Same old schtick, nothing special for the occasion.
    Bye bye Boris.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    Andy_JS said:

    Tony Blair got a standing ovation from all side of the HoC. Johnson only from his own side.

    Great final PMQs from Boris and Tory MPs at least deservedly applauded
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    I'd have quite liked Kemi being elected. She'd certainly have been a breath of fresh air. Rishi has more epidermal melanin,but he's Oxford and PPE, and Liz has been nicked from the old Burton's window.

    Starmer and her ... dull and duller.

  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    Andy_JS said:

    Tony Blair got a standing ovation from all side of the HoC. Johnson only from his own side.

    Because Cameron was more gracious a person than Starmer? That realised that there aren’t many people alive who know what it’s like to be PM and that the day might come when he needed some free confidential advice?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,131
    Given those Opinium findings still very much hoping Truss is knocked out this afternoon if Mordaunt can pick up enough Badenoch votes, though more hope than expectation
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    MISTY said:

    One of the great things about PB is reading the comments of labour/lib dem supporters fretting about tory prospects under Liz Truss....

    Plenty of Tory voting members fretting too.....
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,701
    FPT:
    Gallowgate said:

    MattW said:

    LostPassword said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Nigelb said:

    BartholomewRoberts said:

    What kind of an idiot opposes onshore wind?

    Its not just clean and attractive, its cheaper than coal, cheaper than gas, cheaper than offshore wind, tidal or nuclear.

    Yes its not perfectly reliable at all times, but its the cheapest form of electricity available to us so we should get as much of it as we can as fast as we can.

    Ramping up investment in onshore wind would mean we need less gas in the winter and have cheaper energy bills. There's no downside.

    Between this and Rishi's reported scepticism about backing Ukraine, he's really beginning to look like Putin's useful idiot in this contest. 😠

    And it's quick to deploy.
    Offshore, by contrast, takes years. We should increasing our efforts there as well, but that wouldn't make much of a difference in the short term.
    Exactly. The real objections are purely Nimbyish - some, perhaps many, people in the countryside strongly object, in exactly the same way that they object to electricity pylons. I don't disrespect this view though like Bart I think they're quite attractive, but even if they're seen as ugly, I think we have to ask people to just get over it.
    My father-in-law has a few huge cylinders of metal (maybe 30m in length overall?) in his garden that are intended to end up as part of a wind turbine. He's been researching turbine blade shapes, and someone recently paid him to fix the generator part of a turbine that had a catastrophic failure.

    He recently told my mother-in-law that he was planning to erect the future turbine in view of the kitchen window. About a couple of metres away. Literally in the back yard. She isn't happy about it. I'd always assumed he'd get his brother to agree to let him put it on the hill in his farm a safe distance of a hundred or so metres away.

    So, it is possible for people to want to erect wind turbines a bit too close to houses, even though I agree that they look wonderful at an appropriate distance.
    Where is this? And what is the blade diameter?

    Good luck if in the UK :smile: .

    Micro wind has essentially turned out to be a pig-in-a-poke.

    I'm not sure that onshore wind is even necessary in the UK. In an empty country, maybe. This is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe.
    Indeed. The renewable energy firm I worked at in my previous career didn’t even bother with micro-wind because of the challenges.
    IIRC there is also the amusing practical requirement that whatever you build be able to fall full length, and still be within your boundary - which applies to Permitted Development microturbines. Not sure about PP ones.

    For a 30m pole plus perhaps 10m of windmill sail that is an area of 81mx81m if it is in the middle, which is roughly 1.25 acres - assuming a circular garden.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Jonathan, it'd be remarkable if anyone could win again for the Conservatives given the economic climate.

    Mr. Dawning, I believe so. The media, liking a good line and disliking thinking about whether it's true or not, bang on about it far too much. Likewise the 'special relationship'.
  • Options
    OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,307
    MarqueeMark said:

    3rd rate like PM Truss.....

    Well Mordaunt is named after a fourth rate that foundered so…
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,319
    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because investment is socialism.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,776
    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,320
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Just an aside, but if Sunak does become PM it may mean an end to the tedious and wrong 'he who wields the knife never wears the crown' bullshit the media peddles.

    Yes, I'd quite like to see the back of that one.

    Doubt we will, though, because it's coded in now and it has a 'learned' almost shakespearean feel to it that people enjoy hearing themselves use.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,995
    Henrik Stenson fired as Ryder Cup captain.
  • Options
    NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Are there odds (thanks to Ellwood's banishment) for Mordaunt finishing one vote behind Truss? Cue a bit of a barney.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,604
    OT. That's not quite so bad a poll for the Conservatives as it might first appear.

    Those 11% to 14% leads for Keir Starmer over the remaining Conservative leadership contenders compare with a 19% lead when Opinium last asked the same question (on 6-8 July) comparing preferences for a Starmer-led Labour Government to a Johnson-led Conservative one. That Opinium poll had an overall Labour lead over the Conservatives of just 5%.

    Going back further, to the penultimate Opinium of 22-24 June, they had preferences for a Starmer-led Labour government leading those for a Johnson-led Conservative one by 11% by 3%.

    So I think it's reasonable to conclude that Labour is looking at a 3% lead if Sunak takes over, and possibly a tad more if it's Truss, before allowing for any temporary honeymoon effect. And also before allowing for what happens when the full effects of the cost of living crisis really starts to squeeze household budgets over the next year, because frankly we've seen nothing compared to what's still to come.





  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    He’s just about to be announced as having signed for LIV Golf.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,776
    edited July 2022
    RochdalePioneers said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because investment is socialism.
    Private investment isn't socialism.

    If you want to invest, then set up a company in an area you have some expertise in.

    Don't have the state doing it which will be socialist, yes, and just pander to lobby groups.
  • Options
    OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,307
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tony Blair got a standing ovation from all side of the HoC. Johnson only from his own side.

    Because Cameron was more gracious a person than Starmer? That realised that there aren’t many people alive who know what it’s like to be PM and that the day might come when he needed some free confidential advice?
    Counterpoint: Johnson is a repulsive human being, an inveterate liar, a charlatan, corrupt and the worst prime minister of the 21st century so far. Starmer is right to wish him on his way with a “fuck off”. I imagine he’d rather take a flying lesson from his balcony than ask Johnson’s advice on anything.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    y ?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    There might not be a Ryder Cup at this rate.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    RochdalePioneers said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because investment is socialism.
    Because the vast majority of French electricity is generated by nuclear power, and they've committed to building far more stations that we have. The devil will be in the details, but it is an area where international collaboration might make sense.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Ah LIV
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited July 2022
    Another day, another purchase from Barcelona...

    Barcelona have signed Poland striker Robert Lewandowski from Bayern Munich on a four-year contract worth 50m euros (£42.6m).

    They are the equivalent of that woman who was in the media last week, who despite being in terrible debt kept borrowing from her parents to buy stuff....
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,294
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,294
    tlg86 said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    There might not be a Ryder Cup at this rate.
    It may be like Test Cricket in the initial years after Kerry Packers cricket revolution.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,320
    Northern_Al said:

    Watching PMQs, I thought Boris went out with a whimper rather than a bang. Same old schtick, nothing special for the occasion.
    Bye bye Boris.

    I've forgotten him already.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,319
    edited July 2022
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
    But EDF is state-owned. And yet is "a company with a lot of expertise" who have found a "competitive advantage".

    So there is no impediment whatsoever in being state-owned and commercially excellent. In your own words. Yet you oppose it...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Sizewell C specs look identical to Hinkley point C. I presume they think it can be done for 20 billion as it'll be a copy and paste of the Hinkley one ?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited July 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    y ?
    Signed for LIV golf. 3 new players will be unveiled I think today....I believe the rumour it is Stenson, Scott and Matsuyama. Then another load have agreed to sign after the Fed-ex cup in 6 weeks or so.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,513
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
    EDF is a national champion owned by the French state.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941
    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,319
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    BartholomewRoberts said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
    EDF is a national champion owned by the French state.
    Its the same incoherent jibberish they always come out with. "Government's Can Run Anything" they said handing out train franchise contracts to the German Government, the Italian Government, the Dutch Government, the French Government.

    State owned commercial enterprise. A roaring success.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,907
    OnboardG1 said:

    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tony Blair got a standing ovation from all side of the HoC. Johnson only from his own side.

    Because Cameron was more gracious a person than Starmer? That realised that there aren’t many people alive who know what it’s like to be PM and that the day might come when he needed some free confidential advice?
    Counterpoint: Johnson is a repulsive human being, an inveterate liar, a charlatan, corrupt and the worst prime minister of the 21st century so far. Starmer is right to wish him on his way with a “fuck off”. I imagine he’d rather take a flying lesson from his balcony than ask Johnson’s advice on anything.
    What was your opinion on Tony Blair's premiership?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,360
    An apolitical question of sorts - maybe there are people involved in the campaigns here? Various environmental groups have agreed to encourage supporters to write to the surviving candidates after the vote today, asking about their environmental intentions. While Penny's campaign does publish an email address, we can't find one for either Rishi or Liz.

    I remember being annoyed as an MP when I got policy emails to my email address for constituents, since obviously it's important that constituent enquiries don't get lost in a rush of emails from NGO supporters. Does anyone know of campaign emails for either of them?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited July 2022
    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Apparently Stenson has done a bit of a Boris Becker with his life in terms of lost his fortune by investing loads with people like Alan Stanford.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
    How on earth is LIV intending to get a return on all this ?

    These are huge numbers for *checks notes* the 171st ranked golfer in the world.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,020
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
    So why would a UK state-owned "national champion" by a bloated mess yet EDF isn't? Remember EDF is now completely owned by the French Government (and has always been majority owned by the French Government)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Pulpstar said:

    Sizewell C specs look identical to Hinkley point C. I presume they think it can be done for 20 billion as it'll be a copy and paste of the Hinkley one ?

    You don't necessarily want a 'copy and paste':

    An anecdote: a relative was involved with the creation of a new gas-fired power station. It was built by an American company, as an identical copy of one operating in Arizona. Perfect for the hot and sunny Midlands.

    It was built with barriers to prevent sand getting into parts of the mechanism (a well-known problem in the Midlands), but some critical parts had no protection from heavy rain (not a well-known problem in the Midlands).

    Within a few months, a fair amount of money was spent building 'temporary' roofs over some pieces of plant; 'temporary' ones that afaiaa remained until it was decommissioned a few years ago.

    Having said that, it might still have been cheaper than building a bespoke design, though ...
  • Options
    ThePoliticalPartyThePoliticalParty Posts: 446
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Tony Blair got a standing ovation from all side of the HoC. Johnson only from his own side.

    Because Cameron was more gracious a person than Starmer? That realised that there aren’t many people alive who
    know what it’s like to be PM and that the day might come when he needed some free confidential advice?
    No. Because Johnson is leaving office in disgrace and being deemed unfit by even his own party

    Not even they think he’s served with distinction.

    Also Starmer respects the rules of the house, unlike Mogg etc who don’t understand, let alone respect, tradition
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    Stenson didn't even make the cut at St Andys.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,205
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
    How on earth is LIV intending to get a return on all this ?

    These are huge numbers for *checks notes* the 171st ranked golfer in the world.
    I think the big question is, how will it work long term? They're signing up big names, but most are way past their best. If you're Cam Smith or Justin Thomas, would you risk jumping ship? What happens if the established tours hold firm and LIV packs up if the Saudis get bored or change their mind? They might find themselves unable to play anywhere.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited July 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
    How on earth is LIV intending to get a return on all this ?
    Its a huge risky play by the Saudi's to become the dominant force in controlling golf....but remember if successful the global tv rights for sports is eye-watering and also the team aspect is rather cunning...you sell the franchises / brand partnerships.

    Worth pointing out, Apple just done a deal with the MLS, $2.5bn upfront to become the exclusive rights holders for us soccer rights..MLS produce the content, Apple the technology and marketing push to their eco-system, then there is revenue share.
  • Options
    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    NickPalmer said:

    An apolitical question of sorts - maybe there are people involved in the campaigns here? Various environmental groups have agreed to encourage supporters to write to the surviving candidates after the vote today, asking about their environmental intentions. While Penny's campaign does publish an email address, we can't find one for either Rishi or Liz.

    I remember being annoyed as an MP when I got policy emails to my email address for constituents, since obviously it's important that constituent enquiries don't get lost in a rush of emails from NGO supporters. Does anyone know of campaign emails for either of them?


    Posts like this make you wonder whether the main parties' net zero commitments are being underpinned by argument or intimidation.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,995
    Doesn't Hasta la Vista mean "until the next time"?
    It's see you soon rather than goodbye.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    JosiasJessop said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sizewell C specs look identical to Hinkley point C. I presume they think it can be done for 20 billion as it'll be a copy and paste of the Hinkley one ?

    You don't necessarily want a 'copy and paste':

    An anecdote: a relative was involved with the creation of a new gas-fired power station. It was built by an American company, as an identical copy of one operating in Arizona. Perfect for the hot and sunny Midlands.

    It was built with barriers to prevent sand getting into parts of the mechanism (a well-known problem in the Midlands), but some critical parts had no protection from heavy rain (not a well-known problem in the Midlands).

    Within a few months, a fair amount of money was spent building 'temporary' roofs over some pieces of plant; 'temporary' ones that afaiaa remained until it was decommissioned a few years ago.

    Having said that, it might still have been cheaper than building a bespoke design, though ...
    Obviously there'll be variations, but keeping the same core design always makes sense financially - trust me on this.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
    How on earth is LIV intending to get a return on all this ?

    These are huge numbers for *checks notes* the 171st ranked golfer in the world.
    It's Saudi Sportswashing. The economics don't need to make sense.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,320
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
    How on earth is LIV intending to get a return on all this ?

    These are huge numbers for *checks notes* the 171st ranked golfer in the world.
    Quite. It's not a commercial proposition. The return is 'soft' - to improve the image of Saudi.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,776
    RochdalePioneers said:

    BartholomewRoberts said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
    But EDF is state-owned. And yet is "a company with a lot of expertise" who have found a "competitive advantage".

    So there is no impediment whatsoever in being state-owned and commercially excellent. In your own words. Yet you oppose it...
    There is an impediment. State champions almost always are dismal failures that are operated for the benefit of stakeholders and lobbyists and operate as a drain to the Exchequer. They are in general a terrible, terrible idea.

    Successful state champions where that doesn't happen are very much the extremely small minority exception and not the norm and are not a good model to be followed.

    Your logic is no better than someone cherry picking looking who won the lottery or made a fortune from a pyramid scheme then saying "look how great that was, sell everything, take as much money out in loans as you can and invest it into lottery tickets/Bitcoin".
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,488
    kinabalu said:

    Northern_Al said:

    Watching PMQs, I thought Boris went out with a whimper rather than a bang. Same old schtick, nothing special for the occasion.
    Bye bye Boris.

    I've forgotten him already.
    Who's that?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited July 2022
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Rumoured to be $40m - for someone who hasn’t won a tournament in three years.

    I’m sure most of us would take the same decision. Outside the top dozen or so, pro golfers are not making massive bank and have a lot of expenses.
    How on earth is LIV intending to get a return on all this ?

    These are huge numbers for *checks notes* the 171st ranked golfer in the world.
    I think the big question is, how will it work long term? They're signing up big names, but most are way past their best. If you're Cam Smith or Justin Thomas, would you risk jumping ship? What happens if the established tours hold firm and LIV packs up if the Saudis get bored or change their mind? They might find themselves unable to play anywhere.
    The opened ended suspensions are going to end up in court. Poulter already won an initial reprieve from his DP World Tour (otherwise known as Europoean Tour) ban. I don't think permanent bans will hold because of anti-trust, PGA Tour supposed not-for-profit status, while being a monopoly (they own a big chunk of DP World Tour) whole load of stuff I have read form sports lawyers saying the PGA Tour really won't want to end up in court as the discovery could shed a light on lots of things they don't really want to talk about.

    As for only signing old duffers, they seem to be slowly picking off both current elite players and up and comers. If rumours are true they have got Matsuyama, he is top 20 golfer, Cameron Smith certainly looks on the card. Patrick Reed has gone, Matt Wolf also (he dropped down the rankings, but only a 12-18 months since he was really up there with the best of them).

    Lots of rumours more current high rankings players will go after Fed-ex.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    RochdalePioneers said:

    BartholomewRoberts said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because EDF is a company with a lot of expertise in this, its something they have a competitive advantage in and they'll do it for their best value for money.

    Any state-owned "national champion" would be a bloated mess of a 'company' that would operate instead to the advantage of "stakeholders" and lobbyists and bailed out by the taxpayers time and again. 👎
    But EDF is state-owned. And yet is "a company with a lot of expertise" who have found a "competitive advantage".

    So there is no impediment whatsoever in being state-owned and commercially excellent. In your
    own words. Yet you oppose it...
    Indeed this was exactly the point of my question. We threw the baby out with the bath water with privatisation and forgot that the benefits it brings are down to the implied incentive structure and little else. It’s perfectly possible to create an efficient state owned company if you’re careful about it, as is shown around the world.

    Some countries understand strategic resilience and some don’t. Unfortunately we sold off our strategic resilience to fund our structural current account deficit. Sad.

    By the way Bart, the “private sector” makes the key components for our nuclear powered subs. But really that’s a charade. It’s a ring fenced unit within Rolls Royce that decades after the Thatcher bail out, still benefits from cost plus govt contracts and has very little turnover of staff, because a) it’s such a cushy number, b) they have to be security cleared and pretty much only employ British nationals.

    So it’s private sector but without the upside. And in a similar way, it’s possible to create state sector but without the downside. I’m a Tory at heart but at the first opportunity I’d be nationalising Gupta’s steel interests, as well as the oil refineries owned by Essar and Gary Klesch. Let more competent private sector people run them, with pay structures inversely proportional to the level of state subsidy required to keep them running in the national interest.

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,320
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Taz said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Henrik Stenson has been removed as Europe's Ryder Cup skipper with immediate effect.

    I am sure there are a few million reasons why he won't be too concerned.
    Apparently Stenson has done a bit of a Boris Becker with his life in terms of lost his fortune by investing loads with people like Alan Stanford.
    Got that back and more with his Fedex Cup win though.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    Interesting PMQ's. I love how the Conservatives are always gracious and kind to their leaders on the final Commons appearance... after knifing them in the back and the front lol!

    Boris clearly hoping some future crisis will propel him back into the leadership. Get the feeling he's not going to immediately resign his seat and go off to America but stick around and see what turns up...

    Starmer seemed sour and droned on and on and on and on as usual...

    And so ends the Johnson ministry. Applause on one side of the House. Stony silence on the other. Divisive to the end.

    Hasta La Vista Boris.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,792
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    RochdalePioneers said:

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The government has granted development consent for the new Sizewell C nuclear power plant on the Suffolk coast.

    The project, mainly funded by the French energy company EDF, is expected to cost in the region of £20bn.

    Blimey, sounds quite cheap tbh.
    Why do we outsource this stuff to the French govt rather than setting up our own national champion?
    Because investment is socialism.
    Private investment isn't socialism.

    If you want to invest, then set up a company in an area you have some expertise in.

    Don't have the state doing it which will be socialist, yes, and just pander to lobby groups.
    State investment in a mixed economic isn't socialism, either.
    You're an ideologue.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Mr. Alistair, sounds reminiscent of the Grand Prix there.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,360
    MISTY said:

    NickPalmer said:

    An apolitical question of sorts - maybe there are people involved in the campaigns here? Various environmental groups have agreed to encourage supporters to write to the surviving candidates after the vote today, asking about their environmental intentions. While Penny's campaign does publish an email address, we can't find one for either Rishi or Liz.

    I remember being annoyed as an MP when I got policy emails to my email address for constituents, since obviously it's important that constituent enquiries don't get lost in a rush of emails from NGO supporters. Does anyone know of campaign emails for either of them?


    Posts like this make you wonder whether the main parties' net zero commitments are being underpinned by argument or intimidation.
    Eh? The intention isn't to intimidate anyone, simply to say essentially "I'm keen on X, will you support it?" They're free to say yes, no, or ignore. Supporters who are members of the party may take the responses into account when deciding whom to support.

    I think that's a normal political process, and I never minded getting emails like that.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Pulpstar said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sizewell C specs look identical to Hinkley point C. I presume they think it can be done for 20 billion as it'll be a copy and paste of the Hinkley one ?

    You don't necessarily want a 'copy and paste':

    An anecdote: a relative was involved with the creation of a new gas-fired power station. It was built by an American company, as an identical copy of one operating in Arizona. Perfect for the hot and sunny Midlands.

    It was built with barriers to prevent sand getting into parts of the mechanism (a well-known problem in the Midlands), but some critical parts had no protection from heavy rain (not a well-known problem in the Midlands).

    Within a few months, a fair amount of money was spent building 'temporary' roofs over some pieces of plant; 'temporary' ones that afaiaa remained until it was decommissioned a few years ago.

    Having said that, it might still have been cheaper than building a bespoke design, though ...
    Obviously there'll be variations, but keeping the same core design always makes sense financially - trust me on this.
    I hope they do!
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    GIN1138 said:

    Interesting PMQ's. I love how the Conservatives are always gracious and kind to their leaders on the final Commons appearance... after knifing them in the back and the front lol!

    Boris clearly hoping some future crisis will propel him back into the leadership. Get the feeling he's not going to immediately resign his seat and go off to America but stick around and see what turns up...

    Starmer seemed sour and droned on and on and on and on as usual...

    And so ends the Johnson ministry. Applause on one side of the House. Stony silence on the other. Divisive to the end.

    Hasta La Vista Boris.

    Correction: and so ends the First Johnson Ministry.

    Or so he is planning…
This discussion has been closed.