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Opinium finds double-digit LAB leads whoever becomes PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,698
    Truss supported by 31.6% of Con MPs.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    As a friend just texted: seen the news, wish I hadn’t. One of two complete “c bombs” as PM.

    This is how the vast majority of the public feel. And the vast majority of Tory MPs probably.
    This coup has gone wrong.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 880

    If I was a politician aspiring to high office I would try to hire Andrew Neil to put me through an intense "boot camp" training. Failing that hire a set of smart opinionated individuals for a series of private brutal, no hold barred debates on the key topics and the left-field ones.

    Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there.

    Current level of political practice (all parties) varies between barely adequate to utterly amateur and ignorant.

    "Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there."

    What makes you think I am not Liz Truss?
    You can't be Liz Truss, because I'm Liz Truss!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    Charles Walker MP shifts from Mordaunt to Sunak.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,957
    HYUFD said:

    IDS on Sky news looking very happy with himself as Truss gained 27 MPs to 19 for Rishi and 13 for Penny and goes through to the membership vote. Though his seat is very marginal

    All conservative seats are marginal now
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    They can.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475

    Liz backer IDS looking triumphant on Sky.

    But his Chingford seat in the far north London suburbs is surely gone.

    Depends what the boundary changes are like.
  • TGOHF22TGOHF22 Posts: 32

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    As a friend just texted: seen the news, wish I hadn’t. One of two complete “c bombs” as PM.

    This is how the vast majority of the public feel. And the vast majority of Tory MPs probably.
    This coup has gone wrong.
    The coup = no 2 and 3 in the regime fighting over the crown.

    Hardly a fresh start.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker MP shifts from Mordaunt to Sunak.

    Does he not realise the next round of voting is with the members?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    Breaking - what idiots the Tory MPs are!

    (not that’s it is really news)
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310
    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    Well done!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    As almost always on most things Tory, I'm glad to be on the other wing of the party to you. 😉

    But I don't have a vote, and I want your wing to win rather than mine just so I can get my £5k payday and eternal humility rights. 😇
    If Sunak wins then we might have to put a statute of limitations on your bragging rights. Say 5-10 years if @TSE's example is anything to go by.
  • https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1549773199977627650

    A question to my Tory friends: does it feel like Tory Corbyn is on the way

    I will say many things about Liz Truss and I will not vote for a Tory Party led by her.

    But she is not Tory Corbyn.

    She is just a bad candidate whose policies aren’t going to appeal to the country and has zero charisma. She is no way near as… problematic… as Corbyn was in many areas.
    She's another May. Maybe with less charisma.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Unpopular said:

    If I was a politician aspiring to high office I would try to hire Andrew Neil to put me through an intense "boot camp" training. Failing that hire a set of smart opinionated individuals for a series of private brutal, no hold barred debates on the key topics and the left-field ones.

    Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there.

    Current level of political practice (all parties) varies between barely adequate to utterly amateur and ignorant.

    "Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there."

    What makes you think I am not Liz Truss?
    You can't be Liz Truss, because I'm Liz Truss!
    I am Liz Truss and so is my wife.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Get in!

    Great result from the MPs. Absolutely perfect. Delighted! 🤑

    How much of the £5k are you going to lay off?
    Good question, don't know whether I should or not

    Over time I've laid off ~ £300 of the £5k at an average of ~ 3, so as things stand I'm either +£4705 for Rishi or + £110 for Truss.

    Not sure whether I should lay off the balance or not.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MikeL said:

    Truss supported by 31.6% of Con MPs.

    They really should have a final round indicative MPs vote. And dare the membership to reject the choice if it is overwhelming - knowing that any PM without 50% support in the party is potentially on borrowed time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,691
    I think we all just have to hope that Liz Truss surprises us on the upside now. There have been moments where she impressed me but a lot more moments where she's been more than a sandwich short of a picnic. I also don't think it's bad for her to go in with such low expectations, if she manages to not burn down the building it will be a win.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,998
    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    I’m not sure - I’m viewing it through the prism of competence, and I don’t think Truss has it to carry through policy/ vision
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    If there are "proper" debates and hustings that go beyond sound bites and where the candidates actually have to explain their position then I think Sunak might edge this.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    Wait, a shift to the right since 2020?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496

    Unpopular said:

    If I was a politician aspiring to high office I would try to hire Andrew Neil to put me through an intense "boot camp" training. Failing that hire a set of smart opinionated individuals for a series of private brutal, no hold barred debates on the key topics and the left-field ones.

    Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there.

    Current level of political practice (all parties) varies between barely adequate to utterly amateur and ignorant.

    "Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there."

    What makes you think I am not Liz Truss?
    You can't be Liz Truss, because I'm Liz Truss!
    I am Liz Truss and so is my wife.
    I thought we'd established that I'm Liz Truss?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    edited July 2022
    If MPs were voting between the two, IMO about 60% of Mordaunt's vote would have gone to Sunak, so the result would have been something like Sunak 200, Truss 155.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658
    edited July 2022
    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    The GOP did shift to the right under Trump and lost the 2018 midterms and also lost the 2020 Presidential and Congressional election.

    Midterms electorally in the US are the equivalent of local elections here, mainly a backlash against the President or PM's party, though while polls show the GOP taking the House they show the Senate likely stays Democrat
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Unpopular said:

    If I was a politician aspiring to high office I would try to hire Andrew Neil to put me through an intense "boot camp" training. Failing that hire a set of smart opinionated individuals for a series of private brutal, no hold barred debates on the key topics and the left-field ones.

    Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there.

    Current level of political practice (all parties) varies between barely adequate to utterly amateur and ignorant.

    "Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there."

    What makes you think I am not Liz Truss?
    You can't be Liz Truss, because I'm Liz Truss!
    I am Liz Truss and so is my wife.
    I thought we'd established that I'm Liz Truss?
    There is a bit of Liz Truss in us all.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker MP shifts from Mordaunt to Sunak.

    Does he not realise the next round of voting is with the members?
    I suspect Charles Walker MP is a party member.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,632

    TGOHF22 said:

    As a Labour party member I am rooting for Liz Truss with everything I have. As a UK citizen with kids and a grandchild, the thought of her in charge scares the life out of me.

    Why ? She wont do anything other than tinker in the 20 months left before she has to call a GE..

    T May without the dance moves.

    Trade war with the EU, for starters. Tax cuts funded by borrowing, for seconds. Someone always desperately seeking to prove they are the most right wing person in the room is fine if they are not Prime Minister. When they are it becomes a major concern.
    Why do you expect the EU to initiate a trade war and what do you think it will mean in practice?

    I expect them to do it after Truss forces the NIP legislation through Parliament and then breaks international law by implementing it. In practice, it will make an already sub-optimal trading relationship with our biggest export market even worse.
    What specifically do you expect them to do?
    Who knows?

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,273
    They should have another round to see what the MPs would prefer .

    Clearly the Maggie clone would be miles behind if they did that .

  • I hope all those that spent months bullying HYUFD will now apologise. He's shown real courage in diverging from the herd
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    I’m not sure - I’m viewing it through the prism of competence, and I don’t think Truss has it to carry through policy/ vision
    Indeed.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,384

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1549773199977627650

    A question to my Tory friends: does it feel like Tory Corbyn is on the way

    I will say many things about Liz Truss and I will not vote for a Tory Party led by her.

    But she is not Tory Corbyn.

    She is just a bad candidate whose policies aren’t going to appeal to the country and has zero charisma. She is no way near as… problematic… as Corbyn was in many areas.
    Corbyn was never PM though.
    So she has the potential to be much more problematic.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496

    TGOHF22 said:

    As a Labour party member I am rooting for Liz Truss with everything I have. As a UK citizen with kids and a grandchild, the thought of her in charge scares the life out of me.

    Why ? She wont do anything other than tinker in the 20 months left before she has to call a GE..

    T May without the dance moves.

    Trade war with the EU, for starters. Tax cuts funded by borrowing, for seconds. Someone always desperately seeking to prove they are the most right wing person in the room is fine if they are not Prime Minister. When they are it becomes a major concern.
    Why do you expect the EU to initiate a trade war and what do you think it will mean in practice?

    I expect them to do it after Truss forces the NIP legislation through Parliament and then breaks international law by implementing it. In practice, it will make an already sub-optimal trading relationship with our biggest export market even worse.
    What specifically do you expect them to do?
    Who knows?
    If you don't know, why do you keep asserting that they will start a trade war?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

    He was a twat.

    Oh, and totally unsuited to be PM. He has totally fucked the Conservative Party. You just love him because you thought he allowed an article through that no other editor would. What you probably haven't worked out is that he almost certainly didn't fine the time to read it. that is how shit he is. At everything.
  • mr-claypolemr-claypole Posts: 218
    Think the prospect of those red wall defections just got a fair bit closer
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,239
    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before


    No way Starmer can win a landslide. 10-30 seat majority at best. Con will still be in the game after the next election but they'll have to choose their leader wisely.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,691
    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

    I doubt it will be a landslide. Liz Truss has got an operating window of around a year to win back a lot of votes Boris lost on competency and trust, that alone may be enough to limit the damage. Not burning down the building every few days with yet another scandal is probably worth 5 points in 2024.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker MP shifts from Mordaunt to Sunak.

    Does he not realise the next round of voting is with the members?
    Yes, he said so. Just interesting to know how they're moving. Fabricant has gone from Mordaunt to Truss.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    Just you watch them...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    edited July 2022
    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    Ah, would this be the same Senate polls that have the Democrats winning:

    Nevada
    Georgia
    Pennsylvania
    Arizona
    New Hampshire

    and possibly even

    Wisconsin
    and
    Ohio

    The 538 "polls only" forecast has the Dems actually gaining Senate seats.

    Now, I grant you that the Republicans are essentially certain to gain the House. But no-one knows who their House candidate is. And everyone knows who their Senate candidate is.

    ---

    Edit to add: and this ignores the fact the Republicans might also lose Utah to an Independent
  • TGOHF22TGOHF22 Posts: 32
    EPG said:

    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    Wait, a shift to the right since 2020?
    I fail to see anything in Truss that means a shift to the right.

    Dom is less than impressed I see..
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    MikeL said:

    Truss supported by 31.6% of Con MPs.

    She didn't win over two-thirds of MPs. That is a disgrace.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639

    Could Tory MPs be any more divided?

    Heard that in Chandler Bing’s voice in my head as I read it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    We are witnessing the end of an era - yet none of us sees it!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842

    If there are "proper" debates and hustings that go beyond sound bites and where the candidates actually have to explain their position then I think Sunak might edge this.

    The membership...the membership.

    Dear god there was an "Add Boris to the Ballot" petition yesterday amongst Cons members...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

    Undoubtedly, but there is no point anyone repining about it. If he had died nobody would suggest that his rotting corpse be propped up and wheeled out to PMQs and committee hearings until GE2024. Keeping him on really was that impractical. So impractical that even his party eventually noticed.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    Keir sounds normal, articulate, and down to earth in that interview.

    FFS sort yourself out and find ways of doing more of that.

    I thought the same.

    No one could say his interview answer was full off b*****t, even though it was!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,069
    edited July 2022

    Not too late:

    S - 138
    T - 113
    M- 106

    (I may just have time to edit this to give the right result at 4.01)

    Excuse me - bragging rights! I didn't even have to cheat to be pretty fucking close, and spot on with Truss.
    You - incredibly - scored 98 out of 100.

    Not only WINS but laps the field. Also saves me having to work out all the others.

    I got 91 btw. Top quartile but blown away by somebody who if he wasn't a good solid Labour man I'd suspect of being in the 22 committee room.

    Leon plumb last.

    Well done all.
  • The Tory Party was dying before Johnson came in, he just temporarily stopped it. All the fundamental issues of 2016 onwards are still there as is becoming clear.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496
    Dominic Cummings is back to ranting about the ERG backing a "truly useless Remainer".

    https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1549772971585245184
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,239
    MaxPB said:

    I think we all just have to hope that Liz Truss surprises us on the upside now.

    You know she won't... She can't even string a coherent sentence together. In fact she'll be so bad I think there's likely to be one final leadership change between now and Jan 25 as I can't see Con daring to go into an election with her as leader.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker MP shifts from Mordaunt to Sunak.

    Does he not realise the next round of voting is with the members?
    Yes he did, he said he would be voting as a member. Liam Fox also being much nicer about Penny than anyone has been for a while too. She can have a fair bit of influence in this if she is minded to use it and both camps will be courting her.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rishi Rishi Rishi, you could have put Truss out if you handed some votes over...

    Penny is a bigger risk than Liz, IMO. Her tax and spend plan was simply unhinged.
    She's much less experienced, of course, so, yes, in that sense she's a bigger risk. She also seems to be pretty thick.

    OTOH we know that Liz Truss is an unexploded bomb in terms of NI and the EU. Not clear at this stage whether she can be defused.
    I think once Boris is out of the picture and she's in No 10 a deal will be done. It suits her to get it out of the way quickly and move on to CoL stuff rather than have it dominate the agenda for months while people are unable to afford to fill up.
    It helps as well that she's already thought through the problem and come up with a reasonable compromise that she's prepared to implement unilaterally if need be, but has always held out an olive branch to the EU over it.

    Even @Gardenwalker and others here have said that her proposals on the subject were actually good, despite hating the way it was being done.

    Brits aren't the only ones who don't want a trade war, the EU don't want a trade war while facing real war in Europe and a potential gas crisis this winter either. She's holding out an olive branch and they'll take it and a deal will be done before the gas crisis reaches its peak this winter.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    As almost always on most things Tory, I'm glad to be on the other wing of the party to you. 😉

    But I don't have a vote, and I want your wing to win rather than mine just so I can get my £5k payday and eternal humility rights. 😇
    So we now at least know that the price of your nutty, nation-demeaning views is somewhere south of £5000.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886
    Would love for one of the spoiled ballots to have been from St Theresa. With her fruity description of the candidates scrawled across the paper.
  • TGOHF22TGOHF22 Posts: 32

    Dominic Cummings is back to ranting about the ERG backing a "truly useless Remainer".

    https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1549772971585245184

    What part of that is incorrect ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    Andy_JS said:

    If MPs were voting between the two, IMO about 60% of Mordaunt's vote would have gone to Sunak, so the result would have been something like Sunak 200, Truss 155.

    That feels about right.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,577
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MikeL said:

    What on earth were Rishi and Williamson doing?

    They could easily have put Penny in the Final.

    Total insanity.

    They think they have a better chance of beating Liz than Penny with the membership. It will turn out to be a catastrophic mistake...
    Indeed, had Sunak lent just 10 MPs to Mordaunt it would have been Sunak 127, Mordaunt 115 and Truss 113
    Quite
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    The betting question now is how heavily to go in on Truss.

    I'm not convinced. It's not a slam dunk like it was between Boris and Hunt; Rishi could run her close and, in certain circumstances, win.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    Great office of state -> PM record continues.

    So it’s FPN, mega inflation Sunak or cheese fanatic, woman of the people Truss.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2022
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rishi Rishi Rishi, you could have put Truss out if you handed some votes over...

    Penny is a bigger risk than Liz, IMO. Her tax and spend plan was simply unhinged.
    She's much less experienced, of course, so, yes, in that sense she's a bigger risk. She also seems to be pretty thick.

    OTOH we know that Liz Truss is an unexploded bomb in terms of NI and the EU. Not clear at this stage whether she can be defused.
    I think once Boris is out of the picture and she's in No 10 a deal will be done. It suits her to get it out of the way quickly and move on to CoL stuff rather than have it dominate the agenda for months while people are unable to afford to fill up.
    It's certainly true that her record on the trade deals is one of conceding everything to get any deal she can. The Australian and NZ deals she did were just extraordinarily one-sided, and not in our favour:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/liz-truss-uk-food-sector-australia-new-zealand-trade-deal/

    They verge on being totally irresponsible.

    However, I'm sceptical that this means she'll do anything to get a new deal with the EU. Caving in to Australia and NZ and screwing British farmers gets you plaudits in the modern Conservative Party. The opposite seems to be true of trying to reach a sensible relationship in the case of our former European friends and our biggest trading partners; the totally irrational and pathological dislike of anything with the name 'European' in it which infests the party may mean that she calculates that further wrecking of the economy in the name of ideological purity is what she should do. Certainly the rhetoric so far, and her commitment to the utterly brain-dead NI Protocol Bill, is not exactly encouraging.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,948
    Well, Tory expectation manangement has definitely been a spectacular success.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,577
    Andy_JS said:

    TGOHF22 said:

    What were the gains from Kemi.

    2 spoiled ballots is tremendous.

    Truss was +27 from Kemi's 59.
    Assuming no churn:


  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886
    MISTY said:

    Its interesting how in the UK we think a shift to the right = automatic electoral defeat.

    IN America, the primaries are throwing up a much bigger shift to the right, and yet the polls show the Republicans doing well in the mid terms.

    Britain less full of shitkickers though.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    TGOHF22 said:

    As a Labour party member I am rooting for Liz Truss with everything I have. As a UK citizen with kids and a grandchild, the thought of her in charge scares the life out of me.

    Why ? She wont do anything other than tinker in the 20 months left before she has to call a GE..

    T May without the dance moves.

    Trade war with the EU, for starters. Tax cuts funded by borrowing, for seconds. Someone always desperately seeking to prove they are the most right wing person in the room is fine if they are not Prime Minister. When they are it becomes a major concern.
    Why do you expect the EU to initiate a trade war and what do you think it will mean in practice?

    I expect them to do it after Truss forces the NIP legislation through Parliament and then breaks international law by implementing it. In practice, it will make an already sub-optimal trading relationship with our biggest export market even worse.
    What specifically do you expect them to do?
    Who knows?

    If you don't know, why do you keep asserting that they will start a trade war?
    What they are, yet I know not, but they shall be. The terrors of the earth!”
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,632

    TGOHF22 said:

    As a Labour party member I am rooting for Liz Truss with everything I have. As a UK citizen with kids and a grandchild, the thought of her in charge scares the life out of me.

    Why ? She wont do anything other than tinker in the 20 months left before she has to call a GE..

    T May without the dance moves.

    Trade war with the EU, for starters. Tax cuts funded by borrowing, for seconds. Someone always desperately seeking to prove they are the most right wing person in the room is fine if they are not Prime Minister. When they are it becomes a major concern.
    Why do you expect the EU to initiate a trade war and what do you think it will mean in practice?

    I expect them to do it after Truss forces the NIP legislation through Parliament and then breaks international law by implementing it. In practice, it will make an already sub-optimal trading relationship with our biggest export market even worse.
    What specifically do you expect them to do?
    Who knows?
    If you don't know, why do you keep asserting that they will start a trade war?
    Because they have made it clear they will retaliate when the NIP legislation is implemented.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    I don't seem to remember the Starks doing particularly well when they played the GoT.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think we all just have to hope that Liz Truss surprises us on the upside now.

    You know she won't... She can't even string a coherent sentence together. In fact she'll be so bad I think there's likely to be one final leadership change between now and Jan 25 as I can't see Con daring to go into an election with her as leader.
    Hate to say it GIN but I think they have to stick with her.

    They’ve lost one PM this Parliament, are they really going to lose two? And present that to the country as some sort of stable and viable form of government?

    Whoever becomes leader will lead the Tories into the next election, mark my words. And the cards will fall as they will.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Andy_JS said:

    TGOHF22 said:

    What were the gains from Kemi.

    2 spoiled ballots is tremendous.

    Truss was +27 from Kemi's 59.
    That’s a good way of putting yourself forward for a top Cabinet post. Well done Kemi.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

    I doubt it will be a landslide. Liz Truss has got an operating window of around a year to win back a lot of votes Boris lost on competency and trust, that alone may be enough to limit the damage. Not burning down the building every few days with yet another scandal is probably worth 5 points in 2024.
    I suspect that Ms Truss is a lot less doctrinaire and a lot more pragmatic than she appears. So, I don't expect a trade war with the EU. Indeed, I suspect that while she'll be firm, she's also going to piss people off a whole lot less. That - history suggests - is often a better way of achieving one's goals.

    I also expect her to be firm in her support for Ukraine.

    She'll probably cut taxes next year when she shouldn't, and the UK will probably not sort out its underlying issues on her watch.

    But the economic cycle is a powerful thing, and - so long as Ukraine is resolved - then the cost of living crisis could well have long gone by the next election. Indeed, she might have the good fortune to have an election boosted by both tax cuts and falling commodity prices.

    In which case, a 40 or 50 seat majority is far from impossible.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658
    edited July 2022
    MikeL said:

    Truss supported by 31.6% of Con MPs.

    By contrast Boris got 51% of Con MPs in the final MPs round in 2019, May got 60% of Con MPs in the final MPs round in 2016, Cameron got 45.5% of Con MPs in the final MPs round in 2005 and even Hague got 56% of Con MPs in the last round in 1997 and Major 49% of Con MPs in the final round in 1990.

    Today Sunak got 38% of Con MPs and Truss got 31% of Con MPs, so whoever wins they will have the lowest percentage of Con MPs backing them since the 32.5% IDS got in 2001, indeed Truss even less than IDS
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Rishi Rishi Rishi, you could have put Truss out if you handed some votes over...

    Penny is a bigger risk than Liz, IMO. Her tax and spend plan was simply unhinged.
    She's much less experienced, of course, so, yes, in that sense she's a bigger risk. She also seems to be pretty thick.

    OTOH we know that Liz Truss is an unexploded bomb in terms of NI and the EU. Not clear at this stage whether she can be defused.
    I think once Boris is out of the picture and she's in No 10 a deal will be done. It suits her to get it out of the way quickly and move on to CoL stuff rather than have it dominate the agenda for months while people are unable to afford to fill up.
    It's certainly true that her record on the trade deals is one of conceding everything to get any deal she can. The Australian and NZ deals she did were just extraordinarily one-sided, and not in our favour:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/liz-truss-uk-food-sector-australia-new-zealand-trade-deal/

    They verge on being totally irresponsible.

    However, I'm sceptical that this means she'll do anything to get a new deal with the EU. Caving in to Australia and NZ and screwing British farmers gets you plaudits in the modern Conservative Party. The opposite seems to be true in the case of our former European friends; the totally irrational and pathological dislike of anything with the name 'European' in it which infests the party may mean that she calculates that further wrecking of the economy in the name of ideological purity is what she should do. Certainly the rhetoric so far, and her commitment to the utterly brain-dead NI Protocol Bill is not exactly encouraging.
    If the EU ultimately acquiesces to a solution along the lines that Truss has proposed in the NI Protocol Bill, will you still say that it/she is brain-dead?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,753

    The Tory Party was dying before Johnson came in, he just temporarily stopped it. All the fundamental issues of 2016 onwards are still there as is becoming clear.

    The Tory party did a shit in the corner of the room in 2016 and have spent the last six years desperately spraying Lynx around the room in the hope that nobody will notice, while all the while the smell just keeps getting worse.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035

    The betting question now is how heavily to go in on Truss.

    I'm not convinced. It's not a slam dunk like it was between Boris and Hunt; Rishi could run her close and, in certain circumstances, win.

    I agree with this.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Dominic Cummings is back to ranting about the ERG backing a "truly useless Remainer".

    https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1549772971585245184

    Not a very cutting put down for a 4D chessmaster, and as for the use of multiple clown emojis... he really is the most busted of flushes
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    If there are "proper" debates and hustings that go beyond sound bites and where the candidates actually have to explain their position then I think Sunak might edge this.

    He's far more articulate and far more in control of where the government is and needs to go. As of course Ken Clarke was than IDS but that was in opposition and all we can hope is that the party is less self indulgent in government.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,998
    kinabalu said:

    Not too late:

    S - 138
    T - 113
    M- 106

    (I may just have time to edit this to give the right result at 4.01)

    Excuse me - bragging rights! I didn't even have to cheat to be pretty fucking close, and spot on with Truss.
    You - incredibly - scored 98 out of 100.

    Not only WINS but laps the field. Also saves me having to work out all the others.

    I got 91 btw. Top quartile but blown away by somebody who if he wasn't a good solid Labour man I'd suspect of being in the 22 committee room.

    Leon plumb last.

    Well done all.
    Are you literally alleging my prediction of

    Sunak: 340
    Truss: 0
    Mordaunt: 1.2

    was towards the back of the pack?? Fie!

    I'm tempted to have a cheeky pre-gin gin and blame it on you
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Sandpit said:

    Mrs Sandpit: “I miss Boris” 🇺🇦

    How long will it be before there's talk of the "Secret PM Boris Johnson"?

    Perhaps with Harold Wilson, Jr as his Deputy PM?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,650
    Dom spinning for Sunak who famously handed over control of the Treasury to Dom as the price of No 11.
  • BobSykesBobSykes Posts: 46
    Wonder what the chances are of Tory MPs forcing another leadership vote before the end of 2022?

    One assumes at least half of the MPs will be, at best, displeased with Truss as PM and will be nervously looking at the polls, and events.

    If they do, one suspects the 1922 Exec might be already thinking of changing the rules on how it all works, assuming the membership do vote as everyone seems to think they will.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    edited July 2022
    Liz Truss has had affairs with (at least) two sitting colleagues.

    I am not sure if that’s relevant, but it would be a new departure for a PM.

    Unless there’s more to come out about Anthony Eden.

    Edit: Ha, forgot about John Major.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310
    Unpopular said:

    If I was a politician aspiring to high office I would try to hire Andrew Neil to put me through an intense "boot camp" training. Failing that hire a set of smart opinionated individuals for a series of private brutal, no hold barred debates on the key topics and the left-field ones.

    Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there.

    Current level of political practice (all parties) varies between barely adequate to utterly amateur and ignorant.

    "Failing that join PB under an alias and try out my arguments / policy positions there."

    What makes you think I am not Liz Truss?
    You can't be Liz Truss, because I'm Liz Truss!
    Your moniker works for me Liz!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,496

    TGOHF22 said:

    As a Labour party member I am rooting for Liz Truss with everything I have. As a UK citizen with kids and a grandchild, the thought of her in charge scares the life out of me.

    Why ? She wont do anything other than tinker in the 20 months left before she has to call a GE..

    T May without the dance moves.

    Trade war with the EU, for starters. Tax cuts funded by borrowing, for seconds. Someone always desperately seeking to prove they are the most right wing person in the room is fine if they are not Prime Minister. When they are it becomes a major concern.
    Why do you expect the EU to initiate a trade war and what do you think it will mean in practice?

    I expect them to do it after Truss forces the NIP legislation through Parliament and then breaks international law by implementing it. In practice, it will make an already sub-optimal trading relationship with our biggest export market even worse.
    What specifically do you expect them to do?
    Who knows?
    If you don't know, why do you keep asserting that they will start a trade war?
    Because they have made it clear they will retaliate when the NIP legislation is implemented.
    They previously made it clear that the wouldn't ratify the trade deal until the protocol was implemented, then they made it clear that they would retaliate if the grace periods were unilaterally extended, then they made it clear that they would retaliate if legislation were introduced, then they made it clear that they would retaliate if it actually becomes law, etc, etc...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dominic Cummings is back to ranting about the ERG backing a "truly useless Remainer".

    https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1549772971585245184

    Not a very cutting put down for a 4D chessmaster, and as for the use of multiple clown emojis... he really is the most busted of flushes
    He’s embarrassing himself now, when he could have been in line to be advising the new administration.

    He did have some good ideas, but no-one near power will touch him with a bargepole any more.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    You are definitely one of life's optimists.

    He's not so obviously better, under the criteria they are after, to be so sure.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    Despite having an ‘interesting’ communication style, if it’s any consolation to Tory diehards as a Labour supporter Truss is the candidate I have concerns about. She is about the only one that can keep the Tories together and potentially has a coherent ideology, which will be required to ride the economic storm.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658
    edited July 2022

    Would love for one of the spoiled ballots to have been from St Theresa. With her fruity description of the candidates scrawled across the paper.

    Snake, lightweight, Bitch? Poor Theresa, I expect she reluctantly voted for Mordaunt and would vote against both of Sunak and Truss if she could. In the end I suspect she votes for Sunak with huge reservations
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,239
    edited July 2022

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think we all just have to hope that Liz Truss surprises us on the upside now.

    You know she won't... She can't even string a coherent sentence together. In fact she'll be so bad I think there's likely to be one final leadership change between now and Jan 25 as I can't see Con daring to go into an election with her as leader.
    Hate to say it GIN but I think they have to stick with her.

    They’ve lost one PM this Parliament, are they really going to lose two? And present that to the country as some sort of stable and viable form of government?

    Whoever becomes leader will lead the Tories into the next election, mark my words. And the cards will fall as they will.
    We'll see how the polls are looking in October 24... Never underestimate panic stricken Conservative MP's ability to throw their leader under the bus to save their sorry hides...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,998
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

    I doubt it will be a landslide. Liz Truss has got an operating window of around a year to win back a lot of votes Boris lost on competency and trust, that alone may be enough to limit the damage. Not burning down the building every few days with yet another scandal is probably worth 5 points in 2024.
    I suspect that Ms Truss is a lot less doctrinaire and a lot more pragmatic than she appears. So, I don't expect a trade war with the EU. Indeed, I suspect that while she'll be firm, she's also going to piss people off a whole lot less. That - history suggests - is often a better way of achieving one's goals.

    I also expect her to be firm in her support for Ukraine.

    She'll probably cut taxes next year when she shouldn't, and the UK will probably not sort out its underlying issues on her watch.

    But the economic cycle is a powerful thing, and - so long as Ukraine is resolved - then the cost of living crisis could well have long gone by the next election. Indeed, she might have the good fortune to have an election boosted by both tax cuts and falling commodity prices.

    In which case, a 40 or 50 seat majority is far from impossible.

    I'd love to believe that but I think the UK is through an INFLECTION POINT

    The voters are done with the Tories the way they were done with them around 1995, nothing the Tories do now can stop defeat. Even tho the Labour leader is naff

    They are a sad old dog with mange waiting for the coup de grace
  • DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    I will now be voting for Sunak as the most electable of the last 2, though I fear the membership will vote for Truss

    160,000 voters, the majority must back Rishi, he is not just electable, he is economically literate whilst Truss is six levels or more of rubbish.

    The membership can’t get this wrong HY, it’s like a simple choice between sane and insane. Its stark.

    They can’t get it wrong.
    I don't seem to remember the Starks doing particularly well when they played the GoT.
    LOL.

    But they did kind of win in the end, it ended with Brandon Stark as Bran the Broken, the First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Six Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Leon said:

    Whoever wins I predict a Labour landslide in 2024

    Boris was the charmer that somehow kept this caravan of chaos on the road, through sheer force of personality; with him gone it will now totally fall apart. Worse than before

    He could paper over cracks better. They need someone to actually repair the cracks to have a decent chance.

    But 1992 remains in reach given that big majority.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821


    If the EU ultimately acquiesces to a solution along the lines that Truss has proposed in the NI Protocol Bill, will you still say that it/she is brain-dead?

    Well, it is true that there is a potential landing zone, along the lines of what the EU has already suggested. If she withdraws the bill and actually engages in a positive sense with the practical issues, then that would be great, but it doesn't mean that the bill will have helped reach that position, it will have made it harder to reach it. We could already have de-dramatised this whole thing if we hadn't been issuing stupid threats and insulting our trading partners.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,632

    TGOHF22 said:

    As a Labour party member I am rooting for Liz Truss with everything I have. As a UK citizen with kids and a grandchild, the thought of her in charge scares the life out of me.

    Why ? She wont do anything other than tinker in the 20 months left before she has to call a GE..

    T May without the dance moves.

    Trade war with the EU, for starters. Tax cuts funded by borrowing, for seconds. Someone always desperately seeking to prove they are the most right wing person in the room is fine if they are not Prime Minister. When they are it becomes a major concern.
    Why do you expect the EU to initiate a trade war and what do you think it will mean in practice?

    I expect them to do it after Truss forces the NIP legislation through Parliament and then breaks international law by implementing it. In practice, it will make an already sub-optimal trading relationship with our biggest export market even worse.
    What specifically do you expect them to do?
    Who knows?
    If you don't know, why do you keep asserting that they will start a trade war?
    Because they have made it clear they will retaliate when the NIP legislation is implemented.
    They previously made it clear that the wouldn't ratify the trade deal until the protocol was implemented, then they made it clear that they would retaliate if the grace periods were unilaterally extended, then they made it clear that they would retaliate if legislation were introduced, then they made it clear that they would retaliate if it actually becomes law, etc, etc...

    You are making it up from the second line onwards.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    The Tory Party was dying before Johnson came in, he just temporarily stopped it. All the fundamental issues of 2016 onwards are still there as is becoming clear.

    The Labour Party has been exhumed and is undergoing CPR! I think they might make it out alive!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152

    Apart from the whole tax thing, Rishi is also weak on Ukraine and everybody knows it.

    If this were the case, why didn't any candidate ask him about it at the ITV debate?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    the Truss campaign has deleted her tweet promising to “hit the ground” asap https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1549777533457113088/photo/1
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    Apart from the whole tax thing, Rishi is also weak on Ukraine and everybody knows it.

    I wonder what Mr Wallace might have to say about that.
This discussion has been closed.