The big problem for Labour with EV4EL is that presumably also removes Welsh MPs from the equation.
All of a sudden, on domestic policy at least, it looks dangerous for Ed.
Now is Dave going to pull a masterstroke and get this voted through before May, in the guise of "we promised the Scots we'd deliver quickly, we'll deliver a constitutional settlement for the whole UK quickly"?
@Oliver_PB They have a valid point..it is something needing addressed urgently. Devolution for Scotland will only work well if also takes into account England.
What the hell is it with Tory back benchers having a pop at Cameron now!
such things are the clearest sign many of them are totally unreasonable, they never pick a moment well (whereas carswell for one did), they just never stop
He gave a few vague suggestions, otherwise called "A Vow". He promised a "Cast Iron Guarantee" of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, that didn't happen. Why do you think "The Vow" will matter on jot?
The decision of Sinn Fein to take a neutral stance has been crucial and the increasing maturity of the leadership.Imagine if S/F had taken a position,what may have happened during the Orange Order march which went peacefully.Many,many people would have been biting their tongues.They have kept to their word on neutrality when everyone else,including me,were breaking it.Not are they doing very well,they deserve to be doing very well.Therefore, east end of Glasgow republicans were in a vacuum,so were effectively disenfranchised,Therefore,turn out down.Sinn Fein prepare themselves for government.
Looking like "English votes for English laws" will be the latest Tory wheeze to grab power less than a year before the next election. Shameless.
Another empty piece of politicking that unravels with just the slightest examination. Whats the point of giving English MPs the vote if Scottish/ Welsh MPs can hold the Ministerial roles that decide what policies are offered and what funding is allocated to those areas that are supposedly English only?
The Tories are the party of the Union, DC was about to be skewered if Yes won or even got close, he took a risk and looks like he will win. The importance of the vote has possibly brought out potential tory voters who are unionists
To save his hide, he has had to offer a bribe to the Scots which opens the even bigger can of worms known as the English Question as well as the none to small issue of defining exactly what Devomax is.
Out of the frying pan into the fire...........
he's gained time to try to sort it out at least. it wont be easy, but theres a chance
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
Really? Does this result vindicate the mad flap you got into after that single Yougov poll a couple weeks back?
It was the mad flap which changed the narrative, just in time. If the government - the Establishment - had listened to my clarion calls a few months earlier then we would never have come so close.
The Union has dodged a bullet. Next time we need to make sure there is no bullet.
It needs the economy to turn down from the start of 2015Q4 in order to give independence the extra spark that it needs to get over the line. I've never believed for one moment that this is the last we will hear of a referendum vote for a generation. Separation movements are on the rise across Europe (and birth pang beginnings in Texas, New Mexico, California in the USA). Tonight doesn't change that. Scotland has come a long way since the 1997 devolution vote. But not quite far enough to get independence. Just wait for late next year / 2016 when austerity bites in Scotland whoever wins the GE next May. Then there will be some Scots who will rue the day that they voted for Project Fear and No today.
I've rarely been so happy, should the good news roll on, to be called a fool. now i need to question my prediction ed m will win a majority too.
What will people remember about this campaign? Salmond winging it with no answers to the basic questions; Cameron nearly in tears as he spoke with passion to keep the union together; Ed Miliband scuttling away from a shopping centre encounter with voters......
English MPs on English votes not enough. Need actual devolution to local government
Hmm personally I am not at all keen about this. When I hear people talking about local government devolution in England, it seems to involve city deals for the big conurbations.No-one ever seems to be proposing any devolution for smaller urban areas or rural areas.
Besides who would power be devolved to? I live near Didcot so would it be Vale of White Horse District or Oxfordshire county or South East region?
My other concerns about local devolution are that things will be run less efficiently if you split up something like the NHS into lots of little chunks and that too many councils will lack scrutiny with a dominant political party.
@Oliver_PB They have a valid point..it is something needing addressed urgently. Devolution for Scotland will only work well if also takes into account England.
Nothing has chaned in the four years since this government was elected. What has changed is the Conservatives electoral chances, so they're determined to move the goalposts to keep hold of power
There are huge constitutional problems with "English votes for English laws" that could make the country ungovernable. It's not something that can be done in an afterthought a few months before a general election.
David Cameron will today indicate he wants to move 'swiftly' to implement English votes for English MPs, according to senior Tories #indyref
Great, but how does that solve the executive problem?
Could easily end up with Miliband PM unable to enact any domestic legislation whatsoever.
In the US, the president does not usually have control of both houses. It is considered a sensible check on an overpowerful executive.
We should perhaps think the same. A national government that could not get legislation through parliament on English matters against English MPs wishes is surely a good thing.
The difference is that the president and government of the US does not have to hold the confidence of Congress to maintain in office. France might be a closer parallel, when a president has to cohabit (less common now the terms have been aligned).
What the hell is it with Tory back benchers having a pop at Cameron now!
such things are the clearest sign many of them are totally unreasonable, they never pick a moment well (whereas carswell for one did), they just never stop
Carswells timing was poor. When all eyes will be on discussions re devolution.
BOOers may also want to reflect how in referendums the vote usually breaks for the status quo.
@JBriskin I have been a "No" to independence for 46 years, I will have a glass or two, but not to celebrate, I know why people voted "Yes" and the reasons are never quite the same, but all deeply held.
He gave a few vague suggestions, otherwise called "A Vow". He promised a "Cast Iron Guarantee" of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, that didn't happen. Why do you think "The Vow" will matter on jot?
Well if it isn't it will make him and the Tories look even more shifty and untrustworthy. I appreciate that Cameron is possibly the most politically inept politician for a generation or more but even he must realise his credibility would be severely damaged if he tried such a Blairite manoeuvre.
Recall what happened to Nick Clegg over his Tuition Fees pledge. Now imagine that in a general Election as the sitting Prime Minister.
PS And his failure over the Cast iron Guarantee probably cost him a majority.
David Cameron will today indicate he wants to move 'swiftly' to implement English votes for English MPs, according to senior Tories #indyref
Great, but how does that solve the executive problem?
Could easily end up with Miliband PM unable to enact any domestic legislation whatsoever.
The answer is more coalitions will be required in the future e.g. if Lab win the UK but not England or Tories win England but not UK. A party will need a majority in both England and the UK to govern alone.
David Cameron will today indicate he wants to move 'swiftly' to implement English votes for English MPs, according to senior Tories #indyref
Great, but how does that solve the executive problem?
Could easily end up with Miliband PM unable to enact any domestic legislation whatsoever.
In the US, the president does not usually have control of both houses. It is considered a sensible check on an overpowerful executive.
We should perhaps think the same. A national government that could not get legislation through parliament on English matters against English MPs wishes is surely a good thing.
EV4EL always sounds great in theory, but you still need to find out how to introduce it in practice. Scottish Laws in a Scottish Parliament is easy because Scottish Laws is all they can do.
The moment you try to introduce an "English" bill, it would be easy to turn it into a UK bill with the simple addition of a pork barrelled clause. EV4EL bypassed. Could it really be introduced on a clause by clause basis?
The problem as regards forming a Govt without an English majority is that the conventional way that the viability of a Govt is defined is by the ability to pass a budget. If any EV4EL laws proposals extended to the Budget then this creates a problem.
(there is also a minor issue that due to the varied levels of current devolution, you could easily get a situation where a vote in the House of commons ONLY applied to eg. Wales). WV4WL?
As predicted the people who were saying a yes would be a disaster for Cameron now saying a decisive no is a disaster for Cameron, it's really quite sad.
I've rarely been so happy, should the good news roll on, to be called a fool. now i need to question my prediction ed m will win a majority too.
What will people remember about this campaign? Salmond winging it with no answers to the basic questions; Cameron nearly in tears as he spoke with passion to keep the union together; Ed Miliband scuttling away from a shopping centre encounter with voters......
The public won't care / understand the detail. But if Cameron looks positive and authoritative proposing EVFEL and Miliband looks defensive and evasive waffling to avoid it then this will give Cameron real momentum.
There are a lot of Nat spanners (there are in every party) but lets not make PB not usuable for our good nat posters.
Absolutely. Nobody needs to apologise - Scotland's had a choice, they've had a superb turnout, and it's a triumph for democracy as well as the Union, thanks to both sides.
Agreed. It's been a passionate debate between people with deeply held beliefs. The pain the losers will feel will be more than enough.
Are people seriously suggesting that we should aspire to copy the US model of government? Have you followed US politics lately? It's a complete disaster.
Why not much more power for the big cities? Who could imagine these day a single local authority involved with a construction project lasting 10 years involving the building and running of 33 miles of standard gauge railway track and 73 miles of aqueduct such as Birmingham corporation and the Elan Valley dams?
So the liberal metropolitans have had their AV referendum and lost, the nats have had their independence referendum and look to have lost, will the eurosceptics now get their turn and have an EU referendum in 2017?
David Cameron will today indicate he wants to move 'swiftly' to implement English votes for English MPs, according to senior Tories #indyref
Great, but how does that solve the executive problem?
Could easily end up with Miliband PM unable to enact any domestic legislation whatsoever.
The answer is more coalitions will be required in the future e.g. if Lab win the UK but not England or Tories win England but not UK. A party will need a majority in both England and the UK to govern alone.
I still think there's a lot of nuances - eg one party having the confidence of the house but the English majority party refusing to serve in coalition with the UK majority party etc, that are going to cause serious headaches.
But that's a debate to be had over the coming days. I'm off to bed now all. It does feel like a very exciting time to be British now it looks like the Union has been saved but the constitution ready for heavyweight reform. Don't let us down, please.. That goes for the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems
The public won't care / understand the detail. But if Cameron looks positive and authoritative proposing EVFEL and Miliband looks defensive and evasive waffling to avoid it then this will give Cameron real momentum.
And its that sort of condescending dismissal of the electorate's ability to look beyond shallow posturing that ensures the Tories can never win a majority! Tories never learn!
@SouthamObserver Only at the extremes are there losers, Robbie will still be my friend tomorrow, and our dogs will never realise anything out of the ordinary happened. We are all Scots, dog walking and life in general will carry on.
@Oliver_PB They have a valid point..it is something needing addressed urgently. Devolution for Scotland will only work well if also takes into account England.
Nothing has chaned in the four years since this government was elected. What has changed is the Conservatives electoral chances, so they're determined to move the goalposts to keep hold of power
There are huge constitutional problems with "English votes for English laws" that could make the country ungovernable. It's not something that can be done in an afterthought a few months before a general election.
Not having addressed an unfairness previously is no excuse for not addressing it now.
@kiranstacey: Everyone I've spoken to at Better Together party thinks they've lost Glasgow. Maybe not a prob for No vote, but huge prob for Scottish Lab.
Are people seriously suggesting that we should aspire to copy the US model of government? Have you followed US politics lately? It's a complete disaster.
I honestly don't know what you are referring to - some people, as ever, seem to be more in the know than overs - but surely team PB does not know everything, all the time.
How can they be kicking off now! Right at the moment when the Union looks safe.
What the hell are they going to be like after Clacton!</blockquote The Tory party is in decline. Thee is no better illustration of that than this referendum . Here we have the most important electoral decision ever taken in Britain. And the Tories could not lead the campaign to keep their country together - they had to rely on Labour politicians to lead it and Labour voters to deliver the result. They are no longer a national party.
So the liberal metropolitans have had their AV referendum and lost, the nats have had their independence referendum and look to have lost, will the eurosceptics now get their turn and have an EU referendum in 2017?
Unlikely. The Tories have never been in the running to win a majority.
Are people seriously suggesting that we should aspire to copy the US model of government? Have you followed US politics lately? It's a complete disaster.
I honestly don't know what you are referring to - some people, as ever, seem to be more in the know than overs - but surely team PB does not know everything, all the time.
Have you not followed US politics since 2008 or something? Having two branches of government that can block each other is a recipe for disaster
Are people seriously suggesting that we should aspire to copy the US model of government? Have you followed US politics lately? It's a complete disaster.
It's the funding and fund-raising process that largely makes US politics what it is. The Federal Republic of Germany might be a better model to aspire to.
Are people seriously suggesting that we should aspire to copy the US model of government? Have you followed US politics lately? It's a complete disaster.
I honestly don't know what you are referring to - some people, as ever, seem to be more in the know than overs - but surely team PB does not know everything, all the time.
Have you not followed US politics since 2008 or something? Having two branches of government that can block each other is a recipe for disaster
If you're referring to devomax I just prefer not to think about it. Like a true lib dem - I'm a bit of a fedaralist.
@faisalislam: an off the record concession: “@britainelects: Anything above 45% for Yes would be a "good result" according to the Yes campaign. #indyref”
Whatever the fallout from tonight, it still remains that the 2015GE will be the best GE to lose bar none. 5 month political honeymoon after winning in early May, and then the rot sets in from early October next year.
Team Westminster has dodged a bullet tonight for sure, but its power and influence is decidedly on the wane.
Good night all - I hoped it would be more exciting, but alas it just wasn't meant to be. Economics leads as always, we need the great turn down of October 2015 to get many of the urgent radical changes that are so desperately needed in the UK today.
Comments
All of a sudden, on domestic policy at least, it looks dangerous for Ed.
Now is Dave going to pull a masterstroke and get this voted through before May, in the guise of "we promised the Scots we'd deliver quickly, we'll deliver a constitutional settlement for the whole UK quickly"?
Politics just got interesting again.
They have a valid point..it is something needing addressed urgently.
Devolution for Scotland will only work well if also takes into account England.
I'm (ideologically) bored on vote of the 21C night.
I'll guess I'll just have to play with you Smarmy -
[A lot of voters will have signed up, listened to the debates, and then decided they honestly didn't know which way to vote.]
You're on a massive sulk Smarmy - I'd be getting drunk but I've just been on holiday and the alcohol is medicinal.
NO majority: 382,000
Latest #indyref intelligence: a massive 61% No in Edinburgh.
Which Survation/Yougov polls are going to be used for this ?
What the hell are they going to be like after Clacton!
Besides who would power be devolved to? I live near Didcot so would it be Vale of White Horse District or Oxfordshire county or South East region?
My other concerns about local devolution are that things will be run less efficiently if you split up something like the NHS into lots of little chunks and that too many councils will lack scrutiny with a dominant political party.
"Similar sense of pace required for English changes as for Scottish changes".
There are huge constitutional problems with "English votes for English laws" that could make the country ungovernable. It's not something that can be done in an afterthought a few months before a general election.
Still, a subject for the weekend, I think.
BOOers may also want to reflect how in referendums the vote usually breaks for the status quo.
Now off to bed.
I have been a "No" to independence for 46 years, I will have a glass or two, but not to celebrate, I know why people voted "Yes" and the reasons are never quite the same,
but all deeply held.
Recall what happened to Nick Clegg over his Tuition Fees pledge. Now imagine that in a general Election as the sitting Prime Minister.
PS And his failure over the Cast iron Guarantee probably cost him a majority.
PS. Got 2 hours sleep. People think that's enough to work on tomorrow?
I do believe PB has pretty much managed to "kill" Gove - Policy direction will not be directed by this.
The moment you try to introduce an "English" bill, it would be easy to turn it into a UK bill with the simple addition of a pork barrelled clause. EV4EL bypassed. Could it really be introduced on a clause by clause basis?
The problem as regards forming a Govt without an English majority is that the conventional way that the viability of a Govt is defined is by the ability to pass a budget. If any EV4EL laws proposals extended to the Budget then this creates a problem.
(there is also a minor issue that due to the varied levels of current devolution, you could easily get a situation where a vote in the House of commons ONLY applied to eg. Wales). WV4WL?
The public won't care / understand the detail. But if Cameron looks positive and authoritative proposing EVFEL and Miliband looks defensive and evasive waffling to avoid it then this will give Cameron real momentum.
It comes to something when you're worried you might lose money because there's a real chance YES could drop sub-40%
But that's a debate to be had over the coming days. I'm off to bed now all. It does feel like a very exciting time to be British now it looks like the Union has been saved but the constitution ready for heavyweight reform. Don't let us down, please.. That goes for the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems
Haven't actually slept yet, but managed to rest my eyes at least.time to try again
Only at the extremes are there losers, Robbie will still be my friend tomorrow, and our dogs will never realise anything out of the ordinary happened.
We are all Scots, dog walking and life in general will carry on.
Bad enough for Salmond to have to quit?
Survation's pre-closing poll was probably closer.
Edit: Poop, I've made a mistake.
Well if yes is lt 40% i promise PBers to never ever use the EICIPM phrase ever again.
Cannot happen imo
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/
Now we are talking
Team Westminster has dodged a bullet tonight for sure, but its power and influence is decidedly on the wane.
Good night all - I hoped it would be more exciting, but alas it just wasn't meant to be. Economics leads as always, we need the great turn down of October 2015 to get many of the urgent radical changes that are so desperately needed in the UK today.