Bollocks!! But someone had to go ahead and bite! It has been incredible to see the way that the SNP have over taken Labour on the ground in Dundee. A City which was once a classic Scottish Labour heartland, but like so many had been left neglected and taken for granted by the Scottish Labour party. There is no doubt that the SNP have been desperately trying to replicate that success in Glasgow now for nearly a decade.
But the biggest lesson for the Labour party is not just the way they took their grassroots Labour support for granted in this Independence Referendum campaign until almost the end of the campaign. No, their mistakes go back far further than that, and they are the key to the fact that we are even having this divisive debate at all. For too long the Labour party has sat on its arse in Scotland having delivered Devolution, and with it what they thought would be a Labour fiefdom that would defy any political change in Government at Westminster and continue to be a thorn in the side of any future Conservative Westminster Government.
Only one problem, the Scottish Labour continued to send all its best talent to Westminster after they hit Holyrood. The SNP on the other hand, sent all their biggest talent straight back up to Scotland and that Holyrood Parliament. And the rest is history, an SNP minority Government in 2007, and then that stunning SNP majority in at the 2011 Holyrood elections which caused an earthquake in the Scottish Labour party and set the events in motion which have led to this corrosive and divisive Independence Referendum in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
...
And any Labour supporter on here now trying to claim victory for the Labour party because they finally woke up and got their act together, lets just remember that the Tory vote for a NO was there and solid, as was that of the remaining Libdems. It was the Labour vote up here that only ever in doubt of risking the Union because of the early lack of visibility in the campaign at all. Well done to Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander for sorting that out and getting their campaign off the ground. And well done to Gordon Brown for that rousing final speech that 'helped' an already committed Coalition team in Better Together in the final lap.
I had a go at Darling's soporific leadership of Better Together earlier. You're right to pick out Jim Murphy as the star of Labour's No team. You're also right to point out that (Dewar apart), Labour continued to send their A team to Westminster not Holyrood. Labour would do well to consider the logic of those two points.
Nah. Totally drunk. Don't care. End of months of tension. Just venting now.
My country - which I love, Scotland and England, Wales and Ulster - was imperilled. Part of my SOUL was endangered. I know many people don't understand these feelings, but it is what I feel.
So I am now unwinding. I intend to torment cybernats for about 24 hours, I intend to abuse these vicious nasty people who wanted to break up my country, then I shall return to normal.
xx
I'm on my 9th pint? Hope to squeeze a few more in. Anyone else?
Sunil Today's yougov had Cameron with a higher approval rating in Scotland than Miliband, the Tories may now get a union bounce and pick up some rural Scottish seats
75% in Glasgow. Maybe the Celtic game did hit the vote. I also get the feeling that many of the recent immigrants and students did not feel comfortable to vote.
01:56: Alex Salmond clarification BBC Political Editor Nick Robinson: Aides to @AlexSalmond insist that he has not cancelled appearance at his count. They say he was not going in the first place
Stuart never said 'yes' would win. He pointed out that 'yes' was overpriced and that there was money to be made backing it and laying off later. Pretty profitable advice.
Sweet baby Jesus, turnout is shite (is relatively speaking) in the areas yes expected to do well.
Chicken and egg? Weren't they "expected" to do well in part because of speculation about higher than conventional turnout in those areas?
Stuart Dickson's "high turnout" theory has been proven to be total and utter cack. There has been a high turnout, but it's the NO voters turning out en masse.
Yougov have been totally embarrassing in this campaign but they did No a hell of a favour with their Yes in the lead poll. It was the turning point of the campaign and in fairness Stuart recognised it at the time when he expressed apprehension about the consequences of Yes being shown to be in the lead too early.
There is no question that single poll energised the BT campaign and hardened the No vote like nothing else.
Sunil Today's yougov had Cameron with a higher approval rating in Scotland than Miliband, the Tories may now get a union bounce and pick up some rural Scottish seats
Bollocks!! But someone had to go ahead and bite! It has been incredible to see the way that the SNP have over taken Labour on the ground in Dundee. A City which was once a classic Scottish Labour heartland, but like so many had been left neglected and taken for granted by the Scottish Labour party. There is no doubt that the SNP have been desperately trying to replicate that success in Glasgow now for nearly a decade.
But the biggest lesson for the Labour party is not just the way they took their grassroots Labour support for granted in this Independence Referendum campaign until almost the end of the campaign. No, their mistakes go back far further than that, and they are the key to the fact that we are even having this divisive debate at all. For too long the Labour party has sat on its arse in Scotland having delivered Devolution, and with it what they thought would be a Labour fiefdom that would defy any political change in Government at Westminster and continue to be a thorn in the side of any future Conservative Westminster Government.
Only one problem, the Scottish Labour continued to send all its best talent to Westminster after they hit Holyrood. The SNP on the other hand, sent all their biggest talent straight back up to Scotland and that Holyrood Parliament. And the rest is history, an SNP minority Government in 2007, and then that stunning SNP majority in at the 2011 Holyrood elections which caused an earthquake in the Scottish Labour party and set the events in motion which have led to this corrosive and divisive Independence Referendum in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
...
And any Labour supporter on here now trying to claim victory for the Labour party because they finally woke up and got their act together, lets just remember that the Tory vote for a NO was there and solid, as was that of the remaining Libdems. It was the Labour vote up here that only ever in doubt of risking the Union because of the early lack of visibility in the campaign at all. Well done to Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander for sorting that out and getting their campaign off the ground. And well done to Gordon Brown for that rousing final speech that 'helped' an already committed Coalition team in Better Together in the final lap.
I had a go at Darling's soporific leadership of Better Together earlier. You're right to pick out Jim Murphy as the star of Labour's No team. You're also right to point out that (Dewar apart), Labour continued to send their A team to Westminster not Holyrood. Labour would do well to consider the logic of those two points.
Lamont was very good on radio appealing for solidarity and unity but she has not cut the mustard yet by any means.After saving the world and now the union,I fancy Gordon Brown would be a shoo-in for 1st Minister,King Gordon.What a remarkable resurrection.
This looks like being a humiliation for some of the more vocal posters on here who assured us we knew nothing of what was happening on the ground and there was no way that there was an issue with shy no voters due to intimidation.
I'm sure they'll be along soon to admit they were wrong and apologize.
Another disappointing turnout for Yes, just 75% in Glasgow.
The big cities are not getting the same turnout has the more rural areas which is usually the case. Glasgow I think had seats at below 40% at the last Scottish Election. However the urban areas of the Central belt has had similar turnouts to the more rural areas so it maybe that getting people newly registered is one thing but getting them to actually vote is another.
Stuart never said 'yes' would win. He pointed out that 'yes' was overpriced and that there was money to be made backing it and laying off later. Pretty profitable advice.
It was profitable only so long as you got out in time. He was still saying Yes was overpriced at 9pm just before it started going extreme the other direction and never returned.
Sweet baby Jesus, turnout is shite (is relatively speaking) in the areas yes expected to do well.
Yep, and you know why?
Doubt.
In the end, they couldn't bring themselves to do it.
You can lead a horse to water, and you can sign a person up to the electoral roll, but you can't make the horse drink and you can't make the person vote.
I think Yes deluded themselves that these seriously disengaged individuals who they signed up were going to go on and vote (and to vote heavily Yes). It was the equivalent of someone agreeing with a canvasser simply to get rid of them from the doorstep.
I had a go at Darling's soporific leadership of Better Together earlier. You're right to pick out Jim Murphy as the star of Labour's No team. You're also right to point out that (Dewar apart), Labour continued to send their A team to Westminster not Holyrood. Labour would do well to consider the logic of those two points.
The problem is that Labour can't force their best, brightest and most ambitious that they should carve out a career in Holyrood for the sake of the Union. Remember even Alex Salmond stayed away at first until he realised the potential for his cause there. At best they might see it as a useful training ground/step on the ladder.
Maybe what needs to come out of any future constitutional change is some way to involve the Scottish Parliament directly into the wider UK political process, although its a bit difficult to see how. Perhaps through sensible reform of the Lords?
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
This looks like being a humiliation for some of the more vocal posters on here who assured us we knew nothing of what was happening on the ground and there was no way that there was an issue with shy no voters due to intimidation.
I'm sure they'll be along soon to admit they were wrong and apologize.
But canvass returns...
And Yes posters in every window, No posters only in fields...
The Tories are the party of the Union, DC was about to be skewered if Yes won or even got close, he took a risk and looks like he will win. The importance of the vote has possibly brought out potential tory voters who are unionists
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
Really? Does this result vindicate the mad flap you got into after that single Yougov poll a couple weeks back?
Tommy Sheridan 'Bosses, Bankers, Billionaires&Millionaires unite with Labour MPs, Tories, UKIP & UK Establishment 2 celebrate Project Fear' Tommy forgetting corporation tax cutting Salmond and income tax rise opposing SNP, + Millionaire Yes backers Murray, Connery, Mathewson and Souter
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
You came far closer to calling it for 'yes' than many nats did!
Sunil Today's yougov had Cameron with a higher approval rating in Scotland than Miliband, the Tories may now get a union bounce and pick up some rural Scottish seats
HYUFD -seats such as?
All bets should be off until the impact of the vote on the SNP feeds through. Also it will be interesting to see if the Tories take the relatively good ratings for Cameron as a sign that there may be future in taking Scotland more seriously in the General Election.
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
I consider myself a huge winner if Scotland votes No. It will be the result I desperately wanted. My country will remain intact. As for tipping - who gives a toss??!!
@david_herdson A lot of voters will have signed up, listened to the debates, and then decided they honestly didn't know which way to vote. I only finally made my mind up on my way to the polling station.
The Tories are the party of the Union, DC was about to be skewered if Yes won or even got close, he took a risk and looks like he will win. The importance of the vote has possibly brought out potential tory voters who are unionists
To save his hide, he has had to offer a bribe to the Scots which opens the even bigger can of worms known as the English Question as well as the none to small issue of defining exactly what Devomax is.
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
Mark Senior looks like being a winner.
Now there's something you don't read every day on PB.com....
If Miliband opposes EVFEL it could well cost him votes.
It's a simple issue that is easy to understand.
I said before it won't be a big issue in the GE but at least it gives Cameron something to put him on the front foot and Miliband will look defensive and evasive.
Official PB losers: Southam Observer (yet again, and now surely beyond credibility), Easterross, every single Scot Nat (with the possible exception of Stuart Dickson) plus all you tossers who officially predicted a YES win.
Official PB winners: me, JackW, rcs, and I guess some others.
Mark Senior looks like being a winner.
Now there's something you don't read every day on PB.com....
He took a load of abuse from the Nats, when he consistently predicted Yes was toast, for many months.
David Cameron will today indicate he wants to move 'swiftly' to implement English votes for English MPs, according to senior Tories #indyref
Great, but how does that solve the executive problem?
Could easily end up with Miliband PM unable to enact any domestic legislation whatsoever.
In the US, the president does not usually have control of both houses. It is considered a sensible check on an overpowerful executive.
We should perhaps think the same. A national government that could not get legislation through parliament on English matters against English MPs wishes is surely a good thing.
I must have misread many of your recent posts SeanT as I thought you had thrown in the towel and called it for YES but I always appreciate your heart lay elsewhere.
There are a lot of Nat spanners (there are in every party) but lets not make PB not usuable for our good nat posters.
Absolutely. Nobody needs to apologise - Scotland's had a choice, they've had a superb turnout, and it's a triumph for democracy as well as the Union, thanks to both sides.
Comments
Doubt.
In the end, they couldn't bring themselves to do it.
Yes out to 70 on Betfair.
But, WTF is La Polyana allowed on tv? (BBC of course). Why not the cat?
80-85% 1.46-1.6
85-90% 3.9-5
Sure Alex...
Wasn't there a canvass return that showed Yes winning Clackmannanshire by 65% to 35%?
I will pass on the "contempt" Quite a few of my friends are "yes"
There is no question that single poll energised the BT campaign and hardened the No vote like nothing else.
On the other hand Tower Hamlets is about to start counting the postal votes just in case they are needed
I'm sure they'll be along soon to admit they were wrong and apologize.
The Tories were not on the ballot....
Go to bed!!
David Cameron will today indicate he wants to move 'swiftly' to implement English votes for English MPs, according to senior Tories #indyref
I think Yes deluded themselves that these seriously disengaged individuals who they signed up were going to go on and vote (and to vote heavily Yes). It was the equivalent of someone agreeing with a canvasser simply to get rid of them from the doorstep.
Maybe what needs to come out of any future constitutional change is some way to involve the Scottish Parliament directly into the wider UK political process, although its a bit difficult to see how. Perhaps through sensible reform of the Lords?
No one I know was "shy" about the way they intended to vote, if it came up in the conversation they would tell you.
And Yes posters in every window, No posters only in fields...
There is no Silent No vote, or tanks...
No surprise about Orkney.
Anyway, job done and good night all.
Edit: anyone want to come up with an apt 'your boys took a hell of a beating' ;-)
Could easily end up with Miliband PM unable to enact any domestic legislation whatsoever.
Cameron Big Brother winner on BBC Scotland now from Orkney lol
A lot of voters will have signed up, listened to the debates, and then decided they honestly didn't know which way to vote.
I only finally made my mind up on my way to the polling station.
Out of the frying pan into the fire...........
:-)
It's a simple issue that is easy to understand.
I said before it won't be a big issue in the GE but at least it gives Cameron something to put him on the front foot and Miliband will look defensive and evasive.
We should perhaps think the same. A national government that could not get legislation through parliament on English matters against English MPs wishes is surely a good thing.
Now interviewing a Labour list MSP....they had to ask her "who are you?"