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In the VI polling, there’s been a marked shift to LAB – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2022 in General
imageIn the VI polling, there’s been a marked shift to LAB – politicalbetting.com

As can be seen from the Wikipedia table there has been a marked move to LAB with the four most recent surveys having the party with double-digit leads. This has been partly driven by a Tory decline and partly by LAB edging up.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    edited July 2022
    1st like Labour :smiley::wink:

    @Foxy re. racism you wrote: ' The death of overt racism in British politics and in the Conservative party in particular is a major piece of social progress over my adult lifetime. Certainly racism still exists in British life, but it is either much more marginal or unconscious.

    Ditto homophobia, which has also become anathema to respectable parties.'

    -End quote-


    It's sadly certainly NOT marginal or unconscious at all.

    As the public at Edgbaston discovered last week and as everyone who goes to a football match is well aware. It's thoroughly alive and kicking.

    Better than 30 yrs ago? Definitely. But let's not pat ourselves on the back with false news.

    I wish it were not so Foxy.

    And as for transphobia ... that's the new homophobia with many of the same tired old 'it's not natural' tropes, even on here sadly.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,731
    Boris Johnson taught us one valuable lesson: how not to be prime minister - savage litany of @BorisJohnson’s failure in office by Anthony Seldon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbaed528-fed2-11ec-88db-ae1b6b9bdd3e?shareToken=0dab3042f023686467e6e11c32f8cf48 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545674698729689088/photo/1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Until a new leader emerges I would be astonished if punters did not presume Labour have a better chance right now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    An actual red card. Lol
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    Terrible performance from the All Blacks
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,866
    In the next few days we will find out whether Boris was a winner in the red wall. The regional subsamples will be worth examining.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    If Sunak's denounced by Dorries and Mogg that might prove rather helpful.

    In the short term. Idiots attacking colleagues are just writing Labour lines come the next election, but realising that would, of course, require a modicum of restraint and foresight.

    I think they’re mostly a sensible-enough bunch to avoid slagging each other off in public.

    The worry is more what stories people are going to pass to the Sundays about the candidates.

    Oh, and some policy discussion would be welcome. The next year or two will be brutal economically, what do the candidates have by way of a plan to deal with the world in 2023 and beyond.

    I may have made reference previously, to one particular tax, the promise of a suspension of which on the first day in office might go some way to endearing a particular candidate to the membership.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    Never seen the All Blacks this rattled and ragged
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559
    Councillor 'told to hold grope allegation'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-62100209
    A councillor who says he was groped by former deputy chief whip Chris Pincher, says he was told by a colleague to hold off talking about it after instruction from Conservative headquarters.
    Daniel Cook said Mr Pincher, MP for Tamworth in Staffordshire, groped him in 2005 and 2006 which the BBC understands he denies.
    But Mr Cook said the instruction led him to speak out about what happened.
    The BBC has contacted national and local Conservative parties.…
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,123
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson taught us one valuable lesson: how not to be prime minister - savage litany of @BorisJohnson’s failure in office by Anthony Seldon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbaed528-fed2-11ec-88db-ae1b6b9bdd3e?shareToken=0dab3042f023686467e6e11c32f8cf48 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545674698729689088/photo/1

    Mr Foster also has his own twitter thread giving a retro of Mr Johnson and his Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545423636076675073?cxt=HHwWgoC-_fymufIqAAAA
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559
    Nothing has yet changed.
    https://twitter.com/SteveReedMP/status/1545458323763363840
    The Conservatives said the Pincher scandal was why Johnson had to go. One day later, they promote Sarah Dines MP who gaslighted Pincher’s abuse victim because he’s gay. The problem isn’t the man at the top, it’s the entire Conservative Party
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited July 2022
    Heathener said:

    1st like Labour :smiley::wink:

    @Foxy re. racism you wrote: ' The death of overt racism in British politics and in the Conservative party in particular is a major piece of social progress over my adult lifetime. Certainly racism still exists in British life, but it is either much more marginal or unconscious.

    Ditto homophobia, which has also become anathema to respectable parties.'

    -End quote-


    It's sadly certainly NOT marginal or unconscious at all.

    As the public at Edgbaston discovered last week and as everyone who goes to a football match is well aware. It's thoroughly alive and kicking.

    Better than 30 yrs ago? Definitely. But let's not pat ourselves on the back with false news.

    I wish it were not so Foxy.

    And as for transphobia ... that's the new homophobia with many of the same tired old 'it's not natural' tropes, even on here sadly.


    Foxy said 'racism still exists in British life', I hardly think he was patting ourselves on the back with false news. He also said 'overt racism in British politics' which is an important qualifier, since it was a specific point about the progress made both in the diversity of our MPs, and that any racism towards them that does emerge does not have mainstream political party support, even in a sotto voce way.

    So maybe jump off the outrage bus for a second, that was just tiresome. People diagree about the extent of the problems that remain but very few say there are still no problems at all, and it'd be the height of preposterous doomsaying to simply ignore that society, and politics, has made tremendous progess (which is the thrust of your post, in basically saying while it is better it is not really any better) - idiots at sporting events and the continued existence of discrimination does not change that.

    Your post only makes sense if you think no one thinks any problems remain, and Foxy's post certainly didn't say that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Leon said:

    Never seen the All Blacks this rattled and ragged

    Did you miss England dismantling them in 2019 in the semi final?
    If they lose this, and they should, there will be nation wide inquests with the World Cup coming all too soon.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    The All Blacks tried to sneak a player back on. Incredible

    Hope they lose by 50
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Leon said:

    The All Blacks tried to sneak a player back on. Incredible

    Hope they lose by 50

    Remember the outrage in 2003 when England briefly had an extra man on? Someone lost control of the game - ref should be in charge better than that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559
    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208

    Leon said:

    Never seen the All Blacks this rattled and ragged

    Did you miss England dismantling them in 2019 in the semi final?
    If they lose this, and they should, there will be nation wide inquests with the World Cup coming all too soon.

    But I’ve never seen them fall apart like this

    However they’ve not shipped points with multiple players off…


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Another entry in our occasional series of why does it keep happening...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-62104699
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    edited July 2022
    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    1st like Labour :smiley::wink:

    @Foxy re. racism you wrote: ' The death of overt racism in British politics and in the Conservative party in particular is a major piece of social progress over my adult lifetime. Certainly racism still exists in British life, but it is either much more marginal or unconscious.

    Ditto homophobia, which has also become anathema to respectable parties.'

    -End quote-


    It's sadly certainly NOT marginal or unconscious at all.

    As the public at Edgbaston discovered last week and as everyone who goes to a football match is well aware. It's thoroughly alive and kicking.

    Better than 30 yrs ago? Definitely. But let's not pat ourselves on the back with false news.

    I wish it were not so Foxy.

    And as for transphobia ... that's the new homophobia with many of the same tired old 'it's not natural' tropes, even on here sadly.

    Foxy said 'racism still exists in British life', I hardly think he was patting ourselves on the back with false news. He also said 'overt racism in British politics' which is an important qualifier, since it was a specific point about the progress made both in the diversity of our MPs, and that any racism towards them that does emerge does not have mainstream political party support, even in a sotto voce way.

    So maybe jump off the outrage bus for a second, that was just tiresome. People diagree about the extent of the problems that remain but very few say there are still no problems at all, and it'd be the height of preposterous doomsaying to simply ignore that society, and politics, has made tremendous progess (which is the thrust of your post, in basically saying while it is better it is not really any better) - idiots at sporting events and the continued existence of discrimination does not change that.

    Your post only makes sense if you think no one thinks any problems remain, and Foxy's post certainly didn't say that.

    -End quote - we are having problems with the blockquotes which is my fault -

    >>>

    Whoa you have gone way OTT there my friend. Steady on. I was debating and suggesting that Foxy has really over-played it.

    In particular this comment: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Nigelb said:

    Nothing has yet changed.
    https://twitter.com/SteveReedMP/status/1545458323763363840
    The Conservatives said the Pincher scandal was why Johnson had to go. One day later, they promote Sarah Dines MP who gaslighted Pincher’s abuse victim because he’s gay. The problem isn’t the man at the top, it’s the entire Conservative Party

    They didn't have many people to pick from during a glut of vacancies.

    And who is 'they'? Tory MPs don't get to appoint government figures.

    I get that the point is that people should be wary of just assuming the Tories will start behaving better merely because they have knifed Johnson, and that's a reasonable point to make, but an urgent ministerial appointment by a sinking administration which had very few left it could appoint is not really anything at all.

    We shall see if she retains her position soon.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Heathener said:

    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    1st like Labour :smiley::wink:

    @Foxy re. racism you wrote: ' The death of overt racism in British politics and in the Conservative party in particular is a major piece of social progress over my adult lifetime. Certainly racism still exists in British life, but it is either much more marginal or unconscious.

    Ditto homophobia, which has also become anathema to respectable parties.'

    -End quote-


    It's sadly certainly NOT marginal or unconscious at all.

    As the public at Edgbaston discovered last week and as everyone who goes to a football match is well aware. It's thoroughly alive and kicking.

    Better than 30 yrs ago? Definitely. But let's not pat ourselves on the back with false news.

    I wish it were not so Foxy.

    And as for transphobia ... that's the new homophobia with many of the same tired old 'it's not natural' tropes, even on here sadly.

    Foxy said 'racism still exists in British life', I hardly think he was patting ourselves on the back with false news. He also said 'overt racism in British politics' which is an important qualifier, since it was a specific point about the progress made both in the diversity of our MPs, and that any racism towards them that does emerge does not have mainstream political party support, even in a sotto voce way.

    So maybe jump off the outrage bus for a second, that was just tiresome. People diagree about the extent of the problems that remain but very few say there are still no problems at all, and it'd be the height of preposterous doomsaying to simply ignore that society, and politics, has made tremendous progess (which is the thrust of your post, in basically saying while it is better it is not really any better) - idiots at sporting events and the continued existence of discrimination does not change that.

    Your post only makes sense if you think no one thinks any problems remain, and Foxy's post certainly didn't say that.
    -End quote - we are having problems with the blockquotes which is my fault -

    >>>

    Whoa you have gone way OTT there my friend. Steady on. I was debating and suggesting that Foxy has really over-played it.

    In particular this comment: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary.

    You think homophobia is on the rise? Where is the evidence for that? We are vastly more open as a society now than ever before.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    And now Ireland crumble. Cracking match for drama
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    edited July 2022
    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Leon said:

    And now Ireland crumble. Cracking match for drama

    Yep, this could be an immense 2nd half.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282
    As a default, you'd have thought the Tories would be better off with a new leader who wasn't deeply unpopular and compromised. However, against that are several things. Firstly, the fact it's been utter carnage. The Tories just can't run a 'strong and stable/coalition of chaos' style 2015 campaign. Second, the anti-Brexit forces won't change. Just as the Tories pro-Brexit approach has its pull, it also has its push, and it should worry the Tories - as the pull factor is fading as we're out, no major party is going back in, and merits are dubious. But the push factor is there. There's lots of people who would be open to Tory for their wallets but just won't, ever again, because of their behaviour since 2016. Thirdly, Boris did have a political superpower that was underrated - lying. His successor will face some very difficult choices and have to be honest about the nation's problems and that Conservative governments own much of the blame. Johnson rode through that by saying 'everything's brilliant, we can have our cake and eat it' even when it patently untrue as people wanted to believe in him. Not sure any other leader can do the same and will have to annoy either those wanting tax cuts, or those pointing to dismal infrastructure and public services. Or annoy business or the more fanatical Brexiteers. There's just no approach that pleases all parts of their 2019 coalition,
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    Oh no, not another weapons dump. How sad.

    Yes, the MLRS and HIMARS have been revolutionary, as the enemy is slowly realising it needs to dramatically lengthen supply lines, meaning that dramatically fewer supplies can be delivered to the front lines per day.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Baker pulls out and backs Braverman (lol)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208

    Leon said:

    And now Ireland crumble. Cracking match for drama

    Yep, this could be an immense 2nd half.
    This really isn’t a vintage NZ team, tho


  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    I'm confident Ukraine will have several dozen later in the year. They'll get to that number 4 at a time. And they will have thousands more soldiers trained by the British Army by that time too.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,010
    Get ReadyForRishi. He will be a difficult opponent for Labour.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited July 2022
    This is unrelated, but a big challenge for the government/future governments is that a lot of the PFI schemes entered into in the 90s are starting to come to an end. The whole point of PFI was that the Project Co would maintain the buildings/infrastructure to a good standard so that its handed back to the public sector in good condition. Obviously that hasn’t happened.

    Is the money there to take on all these liabilities and bring them up to spec? It’s a bigger problem than most realise.
  • Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
  • Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Gate, I know PFI agreements were notoriously badly written in terms of being inescapable, but presumably they have some kind of clauses covering firms not delivering on their promises?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now Ireland crumble. Cracking match for drama

    Yep, this could be an immense 2nd half.
    This really isn’t a vintage NZ team, tho


    Yes, but they are home in the heart of Otago. Extra man essentially
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    KevB you mean? I don’t think he is U.K. based...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited July 2022

    Mr. Gate, I know PFI agreements were notoriously badly written in terms of being inescapable, but presumably they have some kind of clauses covering firms not delivering on their promises?

    The Project Co.s are SPVs who have paid out dividends over the years. If there are no assets, there are no assets.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    Re. the polling I do actually agree with @Leon about something.

    I think Boris reached parts that no other tory will ever again reach (Penny M may come closest of the current bunch). He reached into the red wall. A lot of that was Dominic Cummings' engineering. Some of it was utterly shameless stirring of racist sentiments, nationalism and anti-woke bashing of the kind which is simply vile. Agree or not (Leon won't) with my last bit, the fact remains that, like Leon, I agree that he did reach into those red wall voting areas and got them supporting him. The last tory to achieve such a move was Margaret Thatcher with her Mondeo man and council house right to buy and, from the other side of the divide, Tony Blair with his reach into Middle Britain and Cool Britannia.

    Many of these voters will now be lost to the tories and a lot of them are really angry at what has happened: go look at the comments on the Mail and Express websites.

    So I think the Six ;) (the VI) is complicated at the moment because it's masking a lot of tactical voting intentions as well as the red wall tory vote that is now lost.

    I am FAR from convinced that after a honeymoon any other tory candidate will poll well.

    I think the tories got themselves into a terrible bind: they appealed to a constituency that was not naturally theirs whilst screwing with their own.

    By deposing Boris they are going to lose both. Labour double-digit poll leads for the next two years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now Ireland crumble. Cracking match for drama

    Yep, this could be an immense 2nd half.
    This really isn’t a vintage NZ team, tho


    Yes, but they are home in the heart of Otago. Extra man essentially
    Which makes Ireland’s dominance more impressive

    The first yellow was a red, to my mind

  • Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    In this country? In the real world?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Mr. Gate, I know PFI agreements were notoriously badly written in terms of being inescapable, but presumably they have some kind of clauses covering firms not delivering on their promises?

    Perhaps, but if the money has been siphoned out of the special purpose company created for the PFI over the years when it should have been spent on maintenance, and that company is wound up when the contract comes to an end, which firm are you going to enforce the clauses on?

    The money is long gone.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited July 2022

    This is unrelated, but a big challenge for the government/future governments is that a lot of the PFI schemes entered into in the 90s are starting to come to an end. The whole point of PFI was that the Project Co would maintain the buildings/infrastructure to a good standard so that its handed back to the public sector in good condition. Obviously that hasn’t happened.

    Is the money there to take on all these liabilities and bring them up to spec? It’s a bigger problem than most realise.

    Are we looking at a challenge or an opportunity? Most of these buildings were incredibly expensive for the public sector organisation, while quite profitable for the PFI company.

    The return of the asset to the public sector means that any maintainance can be charged at actual rates, rather than £250 a light bulb or toilet seat.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nothing has yet changed.
    https://twitter.com/SteveReedMP/status/1545458323763363840
    The Conservatives said the Pincher scandal was why Johnson had to go. One day later, they promote Sarah Dines MP who gaslighted Pincher’s abuse victim because he’s gay. The problem isn’t the man at the top, it’s the entire Conservative Party

    They didn't have many people to pick from during a glut of vacancies.

    And who is 'they'? Tory MPs don't get to appoint government figures.

    I get that the point is that people should be wary of just assuming the Tories will start behaving better merely because they have knifed Johnson, and that's a reasonable point to make, but an urgent ministerial appointment by a sinking administration which had very few left it could appoint is not really anything at all.

    We shall see if she retains her position soon.
    There no ‘urgency’ to appoint people - look at Bone, for heaven’s sake.
    A couple of months of this is not going to sink the country, but it is neither necessary nor decent. And the choice to leave Boris is post is very much a choice, not a necessity.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Education Minister gives onlookers the finger. Classy lot these Tory Cabinet Ministers

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/new-education-minister-criticised-over-gesture_uk_62c8aa93e4b0aa392d3ed5e1
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,744
    Fpt

    We are going to end up with Braverman as PM aren't we?

    I know some people on here rate Baker but his current encomium of Braverman4pm only confirms my opinion of him.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    Heathener said:

    Re. the polling I do actually agree with @Leon about something.

    I think Boris reached parts that no other tory will ever again reach (Penny M may come closest of the current bunch). He reached into the red wall. A lot of that was Dominic Cummings' engineering. Some of it was utterly shameless stirring of racist sentiments, nationalism and anti-woke bashing of the kind which is simply vile. Agree or not (Leon won't) with my last bit, the fact remains that, like Leon, I agree that he did reach into those red wall voting areas and got them supporting him. The last tory to achieve such a move was Margaret Thatcher with her Mondeo man and council house right to buy and, from the other side of the divide, Tony Blair with his reach into Middle Britain and Cool Britannia.

    Many of these voters will now be lost to the tories and a lot of them are really angry at what has happened: go look at the comments on the Mail and Express websites.

    So I think the Six ;) (the VI) is complicated at the moment because it's masking a lot of tactical voting intentions as well as the red wall tory vote that is now lost.

    I am FAR from convinced that after a honeymoon any other tory candidate will poll well.

    I think the tories got themselves into a terrible bind: they appealed to a constituency that was not naturally theirs whilst screwing with their own.

    By deposing Boris they are going to lose both. Labour double-digit poll leads for the next two years.

    A pedant writes: Mondeo man was post-Thatcher marketing bs. The Ford Mondeo was launched in 1993.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Sandpit said:

    This is unrelated, but a big challenge for the government/future governments is that a lot of the PFI schemes entered into in the 90s are starting to come to an end. The whole point of PFI was that the Project Co would maintain the buildings/infrastructure to a good standard so that its handed back to the public sector in good condition. Obviously that hasn’t happened.

    Is the money there to take on all these liabilities and bring them up to spec? It’s a bigger problem than most realise.

    Are we looking at a challenge or an opportunity? Most of these buildings were incredibly expensive for the public sector organisation, while quite profitable for the PFI company.

    The return of the asset to the public sector means that any maintainance can be charged at actual rates, rather than £250 a light bulb or toilet seat.
    The problem that Gallowgate is pointing out is that these buildings are rapidly approaching their end of life...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    On the thread is also reports that the area around Kherson airport is being smashed. According to the NASA fire map it has been pounded for the last few days.

    Ukraine are doing badly in the east where strategy seems to being driven by politics rather than battlefield conditions and well in the west despite having few troops and limited artillery
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
    Drivel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

    Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.

    Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.

    Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    Roger said:

    Education Minister gives onlookers the finger. Classy lot these Tory Cabinet Ministers

    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/new-education-minister-criticised-over-gesture_uk_62c8aa93e4b0aa392d3ed5e1

    No-one will care. HIGNFY is not on at the moment.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    It is vile, but it's something that is happening to real people. I've no idea how big a problem it is, but pretending it doesn't exist and that the vileness is in talking about it doesn't seem helpful.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Sandpit said:

    This is unrelated, but a big challenge for the government/future governments is that a lot of the PFI schemes entered into in the 90s are starting to come to an end. The whole point of PFI was that the Project Co would maintain the buildings/infrastructure to a good standard so that its handed back to the public sector in good condition. Obviously that hasn’t happened.

    Is the money there to take on all these liabilities and bring them up to spec? It’s a bigger problem than most realise.

    Are we looking at a challenge or an opportunity? Most of these buildings were incredibly expensive for the public sector organisation, while quite profitable for the PFI company.

    The return of the asset to the public sector means that any maintainance can be charged at actual rates, rather than £250 a light bulb or toilet seat.
    The scale of work required to bring some of these facilities up to spec is massive.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson taught us one valuable lesson: how not to be prime minister - savage litany of @BorisJohnson’s failure in office by Anthony Seldon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbaed528-fed2-11ec-88db-ae1b6b9bdd3e?shareToken=0dab3042f023686467e6e11c32f8cf48 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545674698729689088/photo/1

    He blew it. Perhaps deep down he knew his many apologies never rang entirely true, and there was little point in another hollow display of contrition. The tone he chose, with blame for the herd who moved against him, forces us to ask: was this the most ungracious departure in modern memory?

    He could not build on his early promise, and he has left the country weaker. Is the standing of Britain stronger abroad than when he became prime minister? No. Is the unity of the United Kingdom more secure? No. Is the economy stronger? No. Did he establish strong relationships with the leaders of the United States, the EU, China and India? No. Did he make significant progress on levelling up and on a greener economy, his flagship policies? No. These are the criteria on which prime ministers are judged.

    What an idiosyncratic leader like Johnson needed above all was a strong and capable team under him to maximise his strengths, not least in communications, enthusiasm and the big picture. But he never trusted anyone sufficiently to allow them to do the job. Nor did he trust his cabinet ministers enough…

    He broke almost every rule about how to be effective: appoint the best people and stick with them; identify your core domestic agenda and hold relentlessly to it; don’t be distracted by the ephemeral or chase tomorrow’s headlines; and ensure that your personal conduct is beyond reproach.

    Britain could withstand one Johnson: another in his ilk would risk serious damage. Those charged with choosing a successor would do well to think very seriously about this.
  • Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,096
    edited July 2022
    Anyway I'm off. More trans hating jokes on here just prove my point.

    It's vile. You think it's funny, in the same way jokes about 'homos' or 'bum boys' was fine 30 yrs ago. It isn't fine. It's vile.

    Ciao. Not sure I shall bother coming back if this is going to be a repository for ageing white men to bash what they see as 'woke' culture, which basically just means a world which is moving on without them. I understand it's hard to see change but you don't have to be vile and hate-filled about it. Learn to accept others of whatever race, culture, orientation, gender expression, or any other peaceful way of living their lives.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    I'm confident Ukraine will have several dozen later in the year. They'll get to that number 4 at a time. And they will have thousands more soldiers trained by the British Army by that time too.
    Sure, but this could have been done sooner, and much quicker.
    The cost of the war to the world is absolutely immense. Not taking relatively simple steps to end it sooner is foolish.

    I get the impression one of the biggest impediments is the reluctance of western armed forces to part with their toys. It’s not as though there’s any prospect of anyone not geographically close to Russia actually requiring them in the next few years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Sunak's video is very Raab-esque do we know whose side Raab is on.

    Plus well done Rishi's parents. From NHS doctor and pharmacist to paying school fees at Winchester. No small achievement.

    Truss or Mordaunt for me; I want a pause from men in suits and they both seem interesting and competent enough without the batshit crazy bit

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    I'm confident Ukraine will have several dozen later in the year. They'll get to that number 4 at a time. And they will have thousands more soldiers trained by the British Army by that time too.
    Sure, but this could have been done sooner, and much quicker.
    The cost of the war to the world is absolutely immense. Not taking relatively simple steps to end it sooner is foolish.

    I get the impression one of the biggest impediments is the reluctance of western armed forces to part with their toys. It’s not as though there’s any prospect of anyone not geographically close to Russia actually requiring them in the next few years.
    The other trouble is we do not have many toys left, thanks to decades of Tory defence cuts. We've already run down our stocks of anti-tank weapons, and new ones cannot roll off the production line quickly enough. And German hardware is said to be in the same unmaintained and unusable state as Russia's.
  • Heathener said:

    Anyway I'm off. More trans hating jokes on here just prove my point.

    It's vile. You think it's funny, in the same way jokes about 'homos' or 'bum boys' was fine 30 yrs ago. It isn't fine. It's vile.

    Ciao. Not sure I shall bother coming back if this is going to be a repository for ageing white men to bash what they see as 'woke' culture, which basically just means a world which is moving on without them. I understand it's hard to see change but you don't have to be vile and hate-filled about it. Learn to accept others of whatever race, culture, orientation, gender expression, or any other peaceful way of living their lives.

    You bring such such vivid, cliff-hanging drama to the site..

    Will Heathener return?

    Or does she still not really mean it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited July 2022
    MJW said:

    As a default, you'd have thought the Tories would be better off with a new leader who wasn't deeply unpopular and compromised. However, against that are several things. Firstly, the fact it's been utter carnage. The Tories just can't run a 'strong and stable/coalition of chaos' style 2015 campaign. Second, the anti-Brexit forces won't change. Just as the Tories pro-Brexit approach has its pull, it also has its push, and it should worry the Tories - as the pull factor is fading as we're out, no major party is going back in, and merits are dubious. But the push factor is there. There's lots of people who would be open to Tory for their wallets but just won't, ever again, because of their behaviour since 2016. Thirdly, Boris did have a political superpower that was underrated - lying. His successor will face some very difficult choices and have to be honest about the nation's problems and that Conservative governments own much of the blame. Johnson rode through that by saying 'everything's brilliant, we can have our cake and eat it' even when it patently untrue as people wanted to believe in him. Not sure any other leader can do the same and will have to annoy either those wanting tax cuts, or those pointing to dismal infrastructure and public services. Or annoy business or the more fanatical Brexiteers. There's just no approach that pleases all parts of their 2019 coalition,

    Part of Rishi’s video is a very clear dig at what he says are the “fairy tales” we have been told, and a commitment that somebody needs to level with people as to what a bad state we are in. This appears to be the substance of dispute between PM and Chancellor during the closing weeks of the liar’s reign.

    I reckon Johnson’s alleged move to thwart him will be as much fear at having his reputation trashed by someone with inside knowledge, as simply revenge.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Topping, Truss is a lightweight. Mordaunt may be better.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    So many handling errors
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited July 2022
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
    Drivel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

    Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.

    Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.

    Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
    Utter bollocks. Racism is a problem, but nothing like the problem it used to be. Any problem is too much though, so any residual racism should be eliminated. Cricket is primarily dealing with allegations of problems that existed and were badly handled pre-2015 too.

    What's changed is that acceptance of racism has fallen away, the willingness of people to defend it has vanished, and the willingness of people to call it out has increased. So we talk about it more, even though its less common and normalised. That's a good thing. 👍

    Check independent polls on topics like immigration etc too, its completely collapsed post-2015:
    https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    I'm confident Ukraine will have several dozen later in the year. They'll get to that number 4 at a time. And they will have thousands more soldiers trained by the British Army by that time too.
    Sure, but this could have been done sooner, and much quicker.
    The cost of the war to the world is absolutely immense. Not taking relatively simple steps to end it sooner is foolish.

    I get the impression one of the biggest impediments is the reluctance of western armed forces to part with their toys. It’s not as though there’s any prospect of anyone not geographically close to Russia actually requiring them in the next few years.
    I think there was some initial reluctance because people were worried about the potential for donated equipment to be easily destroyed or captured by the Russians, and so there's been a degree of confidence building in the Ukrainian abilities.

    Subsequent to that I think there is a limit to how quickly Ukraine can absorb new equipment in terms of training and logistics.

    In retrospect it seems remarkable that the West provided very little equipment prior to the 24th February invasion.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,606
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukraine continues to degrade the Russian supply lines.
    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545661724598177794

    With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.

    Oh no, not another weapons dump. How sad.

    Yes, the MLRS and HIMARS have been revolutionary, as the enemy is slowly realising it needs to dramatically lengthen supply lines, meaning that dramatically fewer supplies can be delivered to the front lines per day.
    And the Russians still haven’t fixed their truck problems, apparently.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    edited July 2022
    How Britain sold off its defence industry to the highest US bidder
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/08/how-britain-sold-defence-industry-highest-us-bidder/ (£££)

    Jeremy Corbyn, I'll be bound.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,559
    Why a billionaire genius thought it a good idea to insert his own nuts into a vise is an interesting question.

    https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1545597073092857856
    Thread re: Elon.

    I actually hadn’t read the contract, and now I’m like ???? This doofus agreed to SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE to pay $44 billion????


    Probably going to cost him $10bn plus to walk away.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
    Drivel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

    Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.

    Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.

    Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
    I specifically said homophobia and you decline to answer. I’d also suggest some of the reporting of increased hate crime is more about us focussing on it more, and rightly so. Year 0 the policy is not to bother recording racist incidents. Next year you do record them. Same number of incidents each year, yet an infinite increase in reports.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”

    OK…
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,010
    edited July 2022
    Heathener said:

    Anyway I'm off. More trans hating jokes on here just prove my point.

    It's vile. You think it's funny, in the same way jokes about 'homos' or 'bum boys' was fine 30 yrs ago. It isn't fine. It's vile.

    Ciao. Not sure I shall bother coming back if this is going to be a repository for ageing white men to bash what they see as 'woke' culture, which basically just means a world which is moving on without them. I understand it's hard to see change but you don't have to be vile and hate-filled about it. Learn to accept others of whatever race, culture, orientation, gender expression, or any other peaceful way of living their lives.

    Bisexual man here. I'm just ignoring them because I know I am better than that. You could do the same.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Heathener said:

    Anyway I'm off. More trans hating jokes on here just prove my point.

    It's vile. You think it's funny, in the same way jokes about 'homos' or 'bum boys' was fine 30 yrs ago. It isn't fine. It's vile.

    Ciao. Not sure I shall bother coming back if this is going to be a repository for ageing white men to bash what they see as 'woke' culture, which basically just means a world which is moving on without them. I understand it's hard to see change but you don't have to be vile and hate-filled about it. Learn to accept others of whatever race, culture, orientation, gender expression, or any other peaceful way of living their lives.

    And my point re homophobia? Nope, you are doing your usual thing of posting inflammatory comments and then leaving when people refute them.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Leon said:

    So many handling errors

    That’s the problem when you pick Chris Pincher.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson taught us one valuable lesson: how not to be prime minister - savage litany of @BorisJohnson’s failure in office by Anthony Seldon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbaed528-fed2-11ec-88db-ae1b6b9bdd3e?shareToken=0dab3042f023686467e6e11c32f8cf48 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545674698729689088/photo/1

    He blew it. Perhaps deep down he knew his many apologies never rang entirely true, and there was little point in another hollow display of contrition. The tone he chose, with blame for the herd who moved against him, forces us to ask: was this the most ungracious departure in modern memory?

    He could not build on his early promise, and he has left the country weaker. Is the standing of Britain stronger abroad than when he became prime minister? No. Is the unity of the United Kingdom more secure? No. Is the economy stronger? No. Did he establish strong relationships with the leaders of the United States, the EU, China and India? No. Did he make significant progress on levelling up and on a greener economy, his flagship policies? No. These are the criteria on which prime ministers are judged.

    What an idiosyncratic leader like Johnson needed above all was a strong and capable team under him to maximise his strengths, not least in communications, enthusiasm and the big picture. But he never trusted anyone sufficiently to allow them to do the job. Nor did he trust his cabinet ministers enough…

    He broke almost every rule about how to be effective: appoint the best people and stick with them; identify your core domestic agenda and hold relentlessly to it; don’t be distracted by the ephemeral or chase tomorrow’s headlines; and ensure that your personal conduct is beyond reproach.

    Britain could withstand one Johnson: another in his ilk would risk serious damage. Those charged with choosing a successor would do well to think very seriously about this.
    "Those charged with choosing a successor would do well to think very seriously about this."

    Braverman or Nadine it is then.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    edited July 2022
    In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.

    In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62102451
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
    Drivel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

    Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.

    Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.

    Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
    No, it’s not. The overwhelming majority of cricket fans are not racist.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    There was this BBC article about people's real world experiences.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    The problem is that the online activism, is increasingly crossing over into the real world.

    The trans activists and feminist activists have been getting each other fired from jobs with alarming regularity, in the past few years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208
    Come on Ireland! Beat the cheating Kiwis
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Until the next Tory leader is elected voting intention polls tell us nothing
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited July 2022

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
    Drivel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

    Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.

    Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.

    Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
    No, it’s not. The overwhelming majority of cricket fans are not racist.
    Let's do the math. Define "overwhelming majority" then find cricket fan numbers. So that we can see just how many cricket fans are or aren't racist.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?

    The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
    Drivel. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

    Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.

    Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.

    Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
    No, it’s not. The overwhelming majority of cricket fans are not racist.
    Hard to be discriminatory when you are asleep?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”

    OK…
    JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?

    That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.

    Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    'Tax cuts must wait' Sunak tells Tory House journal the Daily Telegraph. I am sure Tory MPs and Tory members will be delighted

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/08/tax-cuts-must-wait-says-rishi-sunak-serious-tory-leadership/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson taught us one valuable lesson: how not to be prime minister - savage litany of @BorisJohnson’s failure in office by Anthony Seldon.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbaed528-fed2-11ec-88db-ae1b6b9bdd3e?shareToken=0dab3042f023686467e6e11c32f8cf48 https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545674698729689088/photo/1

    Mr Foster also has his own twitter thread giving a retro of Mr Johnson and his Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1545423636076675073?cxt=HHwWgoC-_fymufIqAAAA
    A very decent analysis but leaving out one crucial element: The truth that UK policy so failed from 1970-2016 that all solutions were massively sub-optimal, as we failed to shape the EU in ways which a clear majority of the UK population would find acceptable, and did so without asking them. At the same time we were so far in that 'out' was unacceptable too.

    If we had stayed in the issue would never have gone away, it would be a huge and whale size issue whose parallel can be dimly seen in the failure of the SNP to go away after 2014.

    Parliament of course should have united around 'Norway for Now' but that would have required courage and compromise. And of course would also have been sub-optimal.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,010
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    The problem is that the online activism, is increasingly crossing over into the real world.

    The trans activists and feminist activists have been getting each other fired from jobs with alarming regularity, in the past few years.
    You get extremists of both ends in any major debate. Why should this be any different? And the good news is that like in all similar things the two extremes are *wrong*.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    IIn other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62102451

    If we can train 10,000 other European countries ought to be able to train another 10,000 between them, and the Americans can train at least 50,000. And then you're talking serious numbers.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited July 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    The problem is that the online activism, is increasingly crossing over into the real world.

    The trans activists and feminist activists have been getting each other fired from jobs with alarming regularity, in the past few years.
    Indeed, in disputes about activism some extremists have, that's true.

    But not about lesbians refusing to have sex with ladies with cocks, which was the original claim. Has any lesbian been fired for refusing to have sex with a "lady with a cock" - I doubt it!

    You can't just segue from a claim that lesbians are hated for not having sex with ladies with cocks, to just merging the whole online mess of all trans/feminist issues together and call it the same thing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,449
    Nigelb said:

    Why a billionaire genius thought it a good idea to insert his own nuts into a vise is an interesting question.

    https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1545597073092857856
    Thread re: Elon.

    I actually hadn’t read the contract, and now I’m like ???? This doofus agreed to SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE to pay $44 billion????


    Probably going to cost him $10bn plus to walk away.

    His net worth will go up and down by that amount on a single day several times a year. Costly but not disastrous.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    'Tax cuts must wait' Sunak tells Tory House journal the Daily Telegraph. I am sure Tory MPs and Tory members will be delighted

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/08/tax-cuts-must-wait-says-rishi-sunak-serious-tory-leadership/

    Magic money tree
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    HYUFD said:

    'Tax cuts must wait' Sunak tells Tory House journal the Daily Telegraph. I am sure Tory MPs and Tory members will be delighted

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/08/tax-cuts-must-wait-says-rishi-sunak-serious-tory-leadership/

    He is absolutely dismal. Electoral suicide to put him in place.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,208

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:

    The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.

    In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.

    Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.

    In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.

    I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.

    Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
    There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
    And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.

    Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
    But what @BlancheLivermore says is true. Indisputable. Not “vile”

    You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang

    Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.

    The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?

    It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
    I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net

    Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!

    And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
    Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.

    So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
    So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”

    OK…
    JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?

    That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.

    Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
    No idea. It wasn’t my assertion

    It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
This discussion has been closed.