With several dozen, rather than a handful of these US MLRS systems, and sufficient supply of rockets, they would devastate the Russian offensive.
On the thread is also reports that the area around Kherson airport is being smashed. According to the NASA fire map it has been pounded for the last few days.
Ukraine are doing badly in the east where strategy seems to being driven by politics rather than battlefield conditions and well in the west despite having few troops and limited artillery
That's probably down to the fact that it *appears* that Russia is throwing most of its troops into the eastern areas, whilst the southern areas have fewer Russian troops, and they are generally of lower quality as they are only supposed to hold ground for the moment, rather than take it.
I think the Ukrainians could be on the point of a breakthrough in the South. I don't think Russia can defend both the Donbass and its Southern conquests.
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Midlands and Wales seems like a particularly unnatural grouping to me
The best grouping might be from the days of the Heptarchy.
Well, funnily enough Mercia was fairly strongly allied with Wales and there were ructions between Mercia and Wessex over some brutal invasion Wessex inflicted, I forget exactly when though.
But in terms of these regional groupings, I wonder whose convenience it's for. It doesn't feel to me that it helps the polling consumer. Perhaps it helps the pollsters in some way, but it feels slightly cart-before-horse. I'd be much more interested in horizontal segmentations as a default. I just wonder what polling in Leicester can really tell us about the political situation in Llyn, and vice versa.
IIn other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
If we can train 10,000 other European countries ought to be able to train another 10,000 between them, and the Americans can train at least 50,000. And then you're talking serious numbers.
Assuming the requisite numbers actually exist. There have been a lot of Ukrainians volunteering for the army; how many more young and fairly young men are there to be called up? And if they are in the east of Ukraine how reliable are they likely to be? There is a certain amount of pro-Russian feeling there, or always used to be. If not"actual Russians".
There used to be some pro-Russian feeling, but the experience of war has almost completely dissipated that feeling. Having your home shelled and your neighbours killed will have that effect.
Ukraine has vast numbers of people signed up to territorial defence regiments, and other units, who are under arms, and in some cases on the front line, with little training. Anything we can do to provide more training will be helpful.
There was a good article (must find it) about how the experience of living in the areas taken over by Russia in 2014 had collapsed support among formerly pro-Russian Ukrainians. Literally gangster states - armed men stealing what they like.
Yes, I saw that too. I think it was in the Guardian.
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
More specifically: Arts Festival (there are lots all year round). I wouldn't even go into Edinburgh in Arts Festival time, never mind stay there, unless I wanted to go to an AF event. Prices go up in restaurants as well as hotels. It's a ****ing pain.
If you are having difficulty: if it is a one day event, and you are driving up, it might be an idea to look at staying somewhere to the south/east/etc and bussing/training in, or driving to one of the the park and rides around the ring road - Peebles, Galashiels, North Berwick, Dunbar, even Berwick, etc. . But DYR re buses and trains.
I don't know. There's something of the whiff of decay about it which hadn't struck me before. The image of a Cabinet Minister flashing their middle finger to a baying crowd is quite powerful. More in the still than the movie...
2017 GE hustings
It's a still of her talking through a list of points, successively extending each digit in turn beyond the flexed others. The clue is that her mouth is just opening/closing (a 'm'?) and her attention is focussed in a completely different airt from the direction in which the finger is pointing.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?
The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.
Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.
Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
Utter bollocks. Racism is a problem, but nothing like the problem it used to be. Any problem is too much though, so any residual racism should be eliminated. Cricket is primarily dealing with allegations of problems that existed and were badly handled pre-2015 too.
What's changed is that acceptance of racism has fallen away, the willingness of people to defend it has vanished, and the willingness of people to call it out has increased. So we talk about it more, even though its less common and normalised. That's a good thing. 👍
I would argue that cricket has been the most effectively anti-racist 'thing' in society over the last 30 years, in that it has, more than pretty much any other 'thing' effectively brought races together and given them something in common, without hectoring them.
@Heathener, are you involved in cricket, at all? I am, a bit. I watch the game live. My daughter is a member at a local club. And I would describe your assertions about cricket as nonsense.
Personally I am pretty convinced that Heathener is another Leon creation. My reasons for thinking it are as follows. Use of a VPN, but is clearly authentically British. Beyond parody in her support for woke. Now turns out to be a writer, and a lesbian, characteristics shared with Leon's previous female personas. Writes in a very similar style. Short, sharp paragraphs, single word retorts.
I am not particularly upset about it, more bemused - indeed the sheer logistical prowess of managing two way conversations is quite astonishing.
The tic that normally gives his various accounts away is the sudden random use of capitals for a single WORD with no logic to it whatsoever.
I actually hadn’t read the contract, and now I’m like ???? This doofus agreed to SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE to pay $44 billion????
Probably going to cost him $10bn plus to walk away.
His net worth will go up and down by that amount on a single day several times a year. Costly but not disastrous.
I struggle to comprehend Musk's wealth; he's like a human NFT worth as much as people are willing to assign to him (vs. e.g. Bezos, Gates etc. who have a clear. identifiable source of regular profitable income).
Musk has a clear, identifiable source of regular, profitable income: Tesla. Tesla is a profitable business.
SpaceX may or may not be profitable, but its not publicly traded.
However shares are not based on profits today, they're ultimately based upon expected dividends in the future* so Tesla's shares are based upon expectations of future profits more than current profit levels, but it is profitable.
* This was the subject of my Masters Dissertation incidentally, so I did a fair bit of research on this in the past, using 20th century data.
My dissertation was spent smashing up train relays, so a slightly different topic.
Yours sounds more fun! Mine involved a lot of spreadsheets and some programming that I did to do parts of the analysis.
From memory my conclusion was that share prices are (in general) linked well to a multiplier of risk-averse time value of money expected value of future dividends, and that (in general) they tend to be reasonably accurate as such. Of course expectations can be wrong.
Whether Tesla sticks to the risk-averse element of that I would certainly be sceptical about, but its certainly right that TVM of EV of future dividends matters more than present ones.
The bet with Tesla is basically that it dominates the future mass EV market. I'm sceptical, and hold some Toyota stock as globally that is the biggest car seller.
If I had a vote and Rishi made the final two I'd take the punt. This nation needs someone who is willing to tell the truth to the public. The rest of the clown car (and Labour) are simply trying to hoodwink the public into believing that spending rises, tax cuts and just "believing" in the economy will be fine. It won't. We need spending cuts, starting yesterday. The nation is once again living well beyond its means and tax take is already at a record high. The only option left is spending cuts and entitlement cuts.
The talk from the Davos economic forum was all that people just need to accept being a lot poorer, and no country should attempt to step out of line (eg on greenery) to avoid this pain. That is a dismal, distorted view of economies and their ability to thrive if allowed to do so. And it seems to me like Sunak is fully signed up to that. As Boris, I believe, saw, with his belated plan to reverse the increase in corporation tax (I mean what an effing stupid idea!) etc.
You yourself have shared many creative ideas for creating prosperity here. More than ever we need a creative leader who will defy the prevailing conditions, not just tell us about them in a nice suit.
Sadly, I think that the kind of growth in real incomes Western countries enjoyed from 1950 to 2000 is gone for good. Places like Greece and Italy have barely seen real incomes move over twenty years.
Davos Man and Woman, however, would certainly not consider that they themselves are bound by the new austerity. The fruits of office and rent-seeking are what they see as their entitlement.
I don't know. There's something of the whiff of decay about it which hadn't struck me before. The image of a Cabinet Minister flashing their middle finger to a baying crowd is quite powerful. More in the still than the movie...
2017 GE hustings
It's a still of her talking through a list of points, successively extending each digit in turn beyond the flexed others. The clue is that her mouth is just opening/closing (a 'm'?) and her attention is focussed in a completely different airt from the direction in which the finger is pointing.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?
The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.
Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.
Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
Utter bollocks. Racism is a problem, but nothing like the problem it used to be. Any problem is too much though, so any residual racism should be eliminated. Cricket is primarily dealing with allegations of problems that existed and were badly handled pre-2015 too.
What's changed is that acceptance of racism has fallen away, the willingness of people to defend it has vanished, and the willingness of people to call it out has increased. So we talk about it more, even though its less common and normalised. That's a good thing. 👍
Where was the bastion of white privilege, the right wing loons and ignorant racism? The Conservative party. A party now dominated by ethnic minorities with Rishi, the Saj, Nahawi, Braverman (lord help us) and Patel (probbaly beyond even his power) in the front runners. Anyone trying to claim that this country has not changed in a very good way over the last 15-20 years just does not want it to be so.
And, we've reached the stage where ethnic minority Conservative politicians can be criticised on the same terms as their white colleagues.
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
If you're desperate there are good transport links to Falkirk and the bits of Fife near the bridges. Try Air BnB too (I know, I know) because you might get new availability.
Be wary of the trains right now. I don't know what the latest is on the no-overtime but a revised timetable as been in place lately, which may seriously limit late evening travel. Bus services are pretty good, so if you can't find availability in the centre, anything near the ringroad will be fine. Penicuik, Dalkeith, Currie are all very accessible to and from the city centre. I think even Livingston will have good bus links but check that last one.
If you have a car with you and you have a non-drinking driver available, you can obviously stay farther out. Consider the park and rides, the bus services are pretty decent and parking in the centre is a bit of a ballache.
Sunak's prospects are being overstated due to a slick launch.
He has a lot of drawbacks. His last Budget was utterly tone-deaf, he clearly doesn't agree with a lot of colleagues on deficit/taxes, and he has precisely the same number of FPNs as Johnson.
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 9h Badenoch or Mordaunt? No-brainer for anyone on the Conservative mainstream or Right, isn't it? Badenoch or Braverman? Who's going to motivate voters & activists better? Badenoch or Sunak? High-spending had its chance Badenoch vs a posh bloke? Tory activists'll want something new
I don't know. There's something of the whiff of decay about it which hadn't struck me before. The image of a Cabinet Minister flashing their middle finger to a baying crowd is quite powerful. More in the still than the movie...
2017 GE hustings
It's a still of her talking through a list of points, successively extending each digit in turn beyond the flexed others. The clue is that her mouth is just opening/closing (a 'm'?) and her attention is focussed in a completely different airt from the direction in which the finger is pointing.
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
What happens if some of the Ukrainian troops being trained here refuse to go back and claim asylum/refugee status?
We need to be wary a lot of the reporting of the war, much of which is really anecdotal stuff designed to entertain partisan readers/listeners. Objectively it's clear that the Russians tried for a quick total victory and failed badly; and that they are gradually taking Donbas at huge cost. Most of the rest is propaganda, including Putin boasting that he's only just begun and Ukrainians speculating that they'll retake Kherson imminently. It's likely to move very slowly for months.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
I actually hadn’t read the contract, and now I’m like ???? This doofus agreed to SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE to pay $44 billion????
Probably going to cost him $10bn plus to walk away.
His net worth will go up and down by that amount on a single day several times a year. Costly but not disastrous.
I struggle to comprehend Musk's wealth; he's like a human NFT worth as much as people are willing to assign to him (vs. e.g. Bezos, Gates etc. who have a clear. identifiable source of regular profitable income).
Musk has a clear, identifiable source of regular, profitable income: Tesla. Tesla is a profitable business.
SpaceX may or may not be profitable, but its not publicly traded.
However shares are not based on profits today, they're ultimately based upon expected dividends in the future* so Tesla's shares are based upon expectations of future profits more than current profit levels, but it is profitable.
* This was the subject of my Masters Dissertation incidentally, so I did a fair bit of research on this in the past, using 20th century data.
My dissertation was spent smashing up train relays, so a slightly different topic.
Yours sounds more fun! Mine involved a lot of spreadsheets and some programming that I did to do parts of the analysis.
From memory my conclusion was that share prices are (in general) linked well to a multiplier of risk-averse time value of money expected value of future dividends, and that (in general) they tend to be reasonably accurate as such. Of course expectations can be wrong.
Whether Tesla sticks to the risk-averse element of that I would certainly be sceptical about, but its certainly right that TVM of EV of future dividends matters more than present ones.
The bet with Tesla is basically that it dominates the future mass EV market. I'm sceptical, and hold some Toyota stock as globally that is the biggest car seller.
Indeed, for clarity though I'm sure you understood it, my use of EV (expected value) was different to EV (electric vehicles).
There is a major amount of risk involved in Tesla shares at the moment, as it certainly is a bet. Worst case, Tesla remains a niche but profitable business - it will have some value, but nothing like its present valuation.
Best case Tesla dominates the car market and profitably expands its technology beyond just cars (see powerwalls etc) in which case its current valuation could undervalue it.
Considering the market is normally supposed to be risk-averse, I would suggest that Tesla is overvalued compared to what it should be, as people seem to have significantly bought into the best case scenario more than risk-adjusted for the worse case scenarios, as would normally happen in the market.
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
I'm not Scottish but: have you looked at Gullane? Lots of top golf courses there and so it's got a fairly good hotel trade AIR. Nice place too. Not sure what the transport links to Edinburgh are like though.
I had a really lovely time in Dunbar once, which is a bit further away but on the ECML. However, trains in Scotland have issues right now.
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
But is he going, Sean? In our eyes he may have resigned but in his own I suspect he is just buying time.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
I actually hadn’t read the contract, and now I’m like ???? This doofus agreed to SPECIFIC PERFORMANCE to pay $44 billion????
Probably going to cost him $10bn plus to walk away.
His net worth will go up and down by that amount on a single day several times a year. Costly but not disastrous.
I struggle to comprehend Musk's wealth; he's like a human NFT worth as much as people are willing to assign to him (vs. e.g. Bezos, Gates etc. who have a clear. identifiable source of regular profitable income).
Musk has a clear, identifiable source of regular, profitable income: Tesla. Tesla is a profitable business.
SpaceX may or may not be profitable, but its not publicly traded.
However shares are not based on profits today, they're ultimately based upon expected dividends in the future* so Tesla's shares are based upon expectations of future profits more than current profit levels, but it is profitable.
* This was the subject of my Masters Dissertation incidentally, so I did a fair bit of research on this in the past, using 20th century data.
My dissertation was spent smashing up train relays, so a slightly different topic.
Yours sounds more fun! Mine involved a lot of spreadsheets and some programming that I did to do parts of the analysis.
From memory my conclusion was that share prices are (in general) linked well to a multiplier of risk-averse time value of money expected value of future dividends, and that (in general) they tend to be reasonably accurate as such. Of course expectations can be wrong.
Whether Tesla sticks to the risk-averse element of that I would certainly be sceptical about, but its certainly right that TVM of EV of future dividends matters more than present ones.
The bet with Tesla is basically that it dominates the future mass EV market. I'm sceptical, and hold some Toyota stock as globally that is the biggest car seller.
Tesla will need to get a lot better at making reliable cars if they want to dominate the car market.
A very decent analysis but leaving out one crucial element: The truth that UK policy so failed from 1970-2016 that all solutions were massively sub-optimal, as we failed to shape the EU in ways which a clear majority of the UK population would find acceptable, and did so without asking them. At the same time we were so far in that 'out' was unacceptable too.
If we had stayed in the issue would never have gone away, it would be a huge and whale size issue whose parallel can be dimly seen in the failure of the SNP to go away after 2014.
Parliament of course should have united around 'Norway for Now' but that would have required courage and compromise. And of course would also have been sub-optimal.
Have you got a rough deadline for when the issue post 2016 will go away?
It won’t. Remain v Leave is a tissue in English politics as deep as Guelphs v Ghibbilenes (yes I know I’ve spelled that wrong but can’t be arsed…) in Late Medieval Italy, or Drefusards v Anti-Drefusards in early 20th century France. The former only really ended really after Frances I invaded uniting both sides, and the intellectual heirs of the Anti-Drefusards became the Vichy Government, who had a well publicised fate. Whether we had stayed or now we have gone it’s impossible to see how the issue is resolved without some huge change in circumstances resulting in the hatch being buried or one side being wholly discredited.
The Anti-Drefusards simply moved to the NF - Le Pens lot. A French friend commented on how you could tell a lot in some rural areas - older people of a certain inclination would have a picture of Petain on display in their homes…
Maybe - but for 60 years after the war they were a pressure group, not one half of a fundamental ideological divide splitting the country in two.
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
More specifically: Arts Festival (there are lots all year round). I wouldn't even go into Edinburgh in Arts Festival time, never mind stay there, unless I wanted to go to an AF event. Prices go up in restaurants as well as hotels. It's a ****ing pain.
If you are having difficulty: if it is a one day event, and you are driving up, it might be an idea to look at staying somewhere to the south/east/etc and bussing/training in, or driving to one of the the park and rides around the ring road - Peebles, Galashiels, North Berwick, Dunbar, even Berwick, etc. . But DYR re buses and trains.
Yeah, I've been asked to go into the office in mid August for a few days. I said no fucking way.
Unusual for The Guardian to run an article critical of Conservatives.
Let your guard down-she's funny!
Yes yes i know but its tainted by being in that dreary rag of a paper. We can all take the piss out of the Tories but put in in the Guardian and it instantly gets an air of pungent panty bunched earnestness
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
Winning away in NZ (and Aussie) in 2002 was a key step before winning the WC in 2003 for England. Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
Linlithgow is on the train line going directly into Edinburgh and is almost picturesque. Falkirk is a bit further out on the same line and is..not picturesque. Some availability at the Court Residence which gets 'exceptional' rating on booking.com.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?
The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.
Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.
Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
Utter bollocks. Racism is a problem, but nothing like the problem it used to be. Any problem is too much though, so any residual racism should be eliminated. Cricket is primarily dealing with allegations of problems that existed and were badly handled pre-2015 too.
What's changed is that acceptance of racism has fallen away, the willingness of people to defend it has vanished, and the willingness of people to call it out has increased. So we talk about it more, even though its less common and normalised. That's a good thing. 👍
Where was the bastion of white privilege, the right wing loons and ignorant racism? The Conservative party. A party now dominated by ethnic minorities with Rishi, the Saj, Nahawi, Braverman (lord help us) and Patel (probbaly beyond even his power) in the front runners. Anyone trying to claim that this country has not changed in a very good way over the last 15-20 years just does not want it to be so.
And, we've reached the stage where ethnic minority Conservative politicians can be criticised on the same terms as their white colleagues.
Maybe, although I still find it a bit sick how some outer London conservatives can keep using the fear of Khan dog-whistles in their get out the vote messaging.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
You expect men to make the effort? How unreasonable.
(JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM BEING SARCASTIC.) (And the caps lock wasn't deliberate, but it works.)
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
And, it really isn't that difficult. If I can find a wonderful wife, so can any man.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Winning away in NZ (and Aussie) in 2002 was a key step before winning the WC in 2003 for England. Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
England didn’t tour the SH in 2002. Those wins were in 2003, a warm up tour immediately before the WC.
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
But is he going, Sean? In our eyes he may have resigned but in his own I suspect he is just buying time.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
But is he going, Sean? In our eyes he may have resigned but in his own I suspect he is just buying time.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
Yes, I'm convinced that in Boris's mind his ousting was just a bit of lunacy that got out of control. Hence his explicit reference to 'herd' behaviour - idiots who can't think for themselves getting caught up in the moment. I can't see how Boris could engineer a comeback from here, but he's far more devious than me, and if there is a way he'll find it.
Musing on what little I know about Sunak. One point. Is he a good campaigner? He wasn't senior enough to play much of a role last time. And his seat has never been competitive. How would he do in a debate? I've never heard him comment on much outwith the economy.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
Don’t be infantile
These men are incels because they are short, or on the spectrum, or weedy, bespectacled, spotty
What are they meant to do? Grow 30 centimeters? Suddenly become big and ripped rather than thin and scrawny? Or maybe they should develop charming personalities overnight, even tho this is impossible if you are naturally shy, gauche and awkward
Stop belittling men, and this real suffering, just because you’re a woman and have never and will never experience it, as incel status is almost universally a male experience
You’re no better than a white person saying to a black person, “you should just act more white”
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
But is he going, Sean? In our eyes he may have resigned but in his own I suspect he is just buying time.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
On what planet would he have a single MP left supporting him if he tried to reverse ferret? I mean i just don't get the idea. He has announced his departure in front of Downing Street, he has told the Queen, a leadership election is underway, his cabinet are there solely because he has agreed to go.
'Hes planning to stay!' Is a worse and less pausible twist than season 8 of Game of Thrones
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
Linlithgow is on the train line going directly into Edinburgh and is almost picturesque. Falkirk is a bit further out on the same line and is..not picturesque. Some availability at the Court Residence which gets 'exceptional' rating on booking.com.
Oh god, I forgot to point out that Falkirk is a total shithole when I mentioned it. Good catch. I intended to make it clear but did not. Although the Kelpies at night are WELL worth a visit and it's easy if you're in Falkirk and you have a car. Lit up with slowly changing coloured lights, on a late summer evening as the last of the day turns rusty black, they are one of the most magical sights in the whole of the UK. To stand under the down-facing horse's gaze in the gloaming gives you a primal shiver.
Winning away in NZ (and Aussie) in 2002 was a key step before winning the WC in 2003 for England. Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
England didn’t tour the SH in 2002. Those wins were in 2003, a warm up tour immediately before the WC.
I don't know. There's something of the whiff of decay about it which hadn't struck me before. The image of a Cabinet Minister flashing their middle finger to a baying crowd is quite powerful. More in the still than the movie...
2017 GE hustings
It's a still of her talking through a list of points, successively extending each digit in turn beyond the flexed others. The clue is that her mouth is just opening/closing (a 'm'?) and her attention is focussed in a completely different airt from the direction in which the finger is pointing.
The best heckle I ever saw on TV was Harold Wilson who confronted a protester who shouted that he was "giving in to the savages", by opposing UDI in Rhodesia.
"I'm not giving in to savages. I just let them come to this meeting." That's a "No You", if ever I heard it.
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
Linlithgow is on the train line going directly into Edinburgh and is almost picturesque. Falkirk is a bit further out on the same line and is..not picturesque. Some availability at the Court Residence which gets 'exceptional' rating on booking.com.
Oh god, I forgot to point out that Falkirk is a total shithole when I mentioned it. Good catch. I intended to make it clear but did not. Although the Kelpies at night are WELL worth a visit and it's easy if you're in Falkirk and you have a car. Lit up with slowly changing coloured lights, on a late summer evening as the last of the day turns rusty black, they are one of the most magical sights in the whole of the UK. To stand under the down-facing horse's gaze in the gloaming gives you a primal shiver.
Yeah, the Kelpies are good. On paper it sounds like they may be unbearably kitsch, but they do in fact work really well.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
Don’t be infantile
These men are incels because they are short, or on the spectrum, or weedy, bespectacled, spotty
What are they meant to do? Grow 30 centimeters? Suddenly become big and ripped rather than thin and scrawny? Or maybe they should develop charming personalities overnight, even tho this is impossible if you are naturally shy, gauche and awkward
Stop belittling men, and this real suffering, just because you’re a woman and have never and will never experience it, as incel status is almost universally a male experience
You’re no better than a white person saying to a black person, “you should just act more white”
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
But is he going, Sean? In our eyes he may have resigned but in his own I suspect he is just buying time.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
Yes, I'm convinced that in Boris's mind his ousting was just a bit of lunacy that got out of control. Hence his explicit reference to 'herd' behaviour - idiots who can't think for themselves getting caught up in the moment. I can't see how Boris could engineer a comeback from here, but he's far more devious than me, and if there is a way he'll find it.
I agree. He's untrustworthy and he'll use any trick in the book.
By the way, time was when 'the Tory herd' was a term of mild abuse directed at Conservative supporters on this site. It was generally playfully intended, but a bit snarky nevertheless. Not sure it's clever for the erstwhile Party Leader to apply it to his own voters.
Surprised there hasn't been more reaction from 'the herd'.
Unusual for The Guardian to run an article critical of Conservatives.
Let your guard down-she's funny!
Yes yes i know but its tainted by being in that dreary rag of a paper. We can all take the piss out of the Tories but put in in the Guardian and it instantly gets an air of pungent panty bunched earnestness
Maybe cancel your subscription if you aren't enjoying it
A very decent analysis but leaving out one crucial element: The truth that UK policy so failed from 1970-2016 that all solutions were massively sub-optimal, as we failed to shape the EU in ways which a clear majority of the UK population would find acceptable, and did so without asking them. At the same time we were so far in that 'out' was unacceptable too.
If we had stayed in the issue would never have gone away, it would be a huge and whale size issue whose parallel can be dimly seen in the failure of the SNP to go away after 2014.
Parliament of course should have united around 'Norway for Now' but that would have required courage and compromise. And of course would also have been sub-optimal.
Have you got a rough deadline for when the issue post 2016 will go away?
It won’t. Remain v Leave is a tissue in English politics as deep as Guelphs v Ghibbilenes (yes I know I’ve spelled that wrong but can’t be arsed…) in Late Medieval Italy, or Drefusards v Anti-Drefusards in early 20th century France. The former only really ended really after Frances I invaded uniting both sides, and the intellectual heirs of the Anti-Drefusards became the Vichy Government, who had a well publicised fate. Whether we had stayed or now we have gone it’s impossible to see how the issue is resolved without some huge change in circumstances resulting in the hatch being buried or one side being wholly discredited.
The Anti-Drefusards simply moved to the NF - Le Pens lot. A French friend commented on how you could tell a lot in some rural areas - older people of a certain inclination would have a picture of Petain on display in their homes…
Maybe - but for 60 years after the war they were a pressure group, not one half of a fundamental ideological divide splitting the country in two.
Vichy utterly discredited them. There is a totally reactionary element of the French electorate, but I think even among FN/RN voters they're a distinct minority. A big part of their support comes from ex-Communists, and increasingly, ex-mainstream right.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Winning away in NZ (and Aussie) in 2002 was a key step before winning the WC in 2003 for England. Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
England didn’t tour the SH in 2002. Those wins were in 2003, a warm up tour immediately before the WC.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Well, that's where prostitution serves a social function. They can get sex, but they have to pay for it.
Musing on what little I know about Sunak. One point. Is he a good campaigner? He wasn't senior enough to play much of a role last time. And his seat has never been competitive. How would he do in a debate? I've never heard him comment on much outwith the economy.
He stood in for Bozo in 2019 in a couple of the TV debates and was OK
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
You expect men to make the effort? How unreasonable.
(JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM BEING SARCASTIC.) (And the caps lock wasn't deliberate, but it works.)
Massive increase in sales of Lynx? Asking for a young friend!
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
Linlithgow is on the train line going directly into Edinburgh and is almost picturesque. Falkirk is a bit further out on the same line and is..not picturesque. Some availability at the Court Residence which gets 'exceptional' rating on booking.com.
Oh god, I forgot to point out that Falkirk is a total shithole when I mentioned it. Good catch. I intended to make it clear but did not. Although the Kelpies at night are WELL worth a visit and it's easy if you're in Falkirk and you have a car. Lit up with slowly changing coloured lights, on a late summer evening as the last of the day turns rusty black, they are one of the most magical sights in the whole of the UK. To stand under the down-facing horse's gaze in the gloaming gives you a primal shiver.
Yeah, the Kelpies are good. On paper it sounds like they may be unbearably kitsch, but they do in fact work really well.
Hmmm, I see what you mean but it never crossed my mind to think of them that way. They're just too well executed to be anything other than magnificent. I don't think I'll ever get bored of them.
Unusual for The Guardian to run an article critical of Conservatives.
Let your guard down-she's funny!
Yes yes i know but its tainted by being in that dreary rag of a paper. We can all take the piss out of the Tories but put in in the Guardian and it instantly gets an air of pungent panty bunched earnestness
Maybe cancel your subscription if you aren't enjoying it
No need, they shove it all out for free online so we get to enjoy it regardless
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Is this right? I see quite a lot of ugly looking blokes who have managed to pull - including myself! Even plenty of dating apps focus more on personality than looks.
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Well, that's where prostitution serves a social function. They can get sex, but they have to pay for it.
Indeed. Yet some feminists would close that down, as well
The answer might in the end be AI and VR. Sex bots. But we are a long way from that and s rocky path awaits
Winning away in NZ (and Aussie) in 2002 was a key step before winning the WC in 2003 for England. Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
England didn’t tour the SH in 2002. Those wins were in 2003, a warm up tour immediately before the WC.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
Don’t be infantile
These men are incels because they are short, or on the spectrum, or weedy, bespectacled, spotty
What are they meant to do? Grow 30 centimeters? Suddenly become big and ripped rather than thin and scrawny? Or maybe they should develop charming personalities overnight, even tho this is impossible if you are naturally shy, gauche and awkward
Stop belittling men, and this real suffering, just because you’re a woman and have never and will never experience it, as incel status is almost universally a male experience
You’re no better than a white person saying to a black person, “you should just act more white”
Tsk. I thought better of you
There are plenty of short, on the spectrum, weedy, bespectacled, spotty females about too. As Eddie Hitler from Bottom said, 'Don't worry about it Richie. There are millions of ugly women in the world. One of them's going to want to have sex with you sooner or later.'
On Sunak, I do wonder whether his leadership pitch will fall apart under close scrutiny.
The economy is in freefall. As CotE, he's presided over a high tax, low growth economy that is in the doldrums. It's simply not good enough to blame Covid/Ukraine etc. His economic policy has been largely reactive and short-term rather than strategic and long-term. And yet, he wants us to believe that he alone will dispense with the "fairy tales" of the last several years.
His pitch seems to be "it was Boris that made me do it, so it's not my fault". I'm no Tory, but if I were I'd not be convinced. I think his performance as Chancellor will carry more weight than his private financial arrangements.
Musing on what little I know about Sunak. One point. Is he a good campaigner? He wasn't senior enough to play much of a role last time. And his seat has never been competitive. How would he do in a debate? I've never heard him comment on much outwith the economy.
He represented the party in a leader debate Boris did not want to go to, IIRC, and was considered to have done ok I think.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Unusual for The Guardian to run an article critical of Conservatives.
Let your guard down-she's funny!
Yes yes i know but its tainted by being in that dreary rag of a paper. We can all take the piss out of the Tories but put in in the Guardian and it instantly gets an air of pungent panty bunched earnestness
Maybe cancel your subscription if you aren't enjoying it
No need, they shove it all out for free online so we get to enjoy it regardless
I'd have words with the people holding you down in your chair and forcing you to read. It's just not on.
Winning away in NZ (and Aussie) in 2002 was a key step before winning the WC in 2003 for England. Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
England didn’t tour the SH in 2002. Those wins were in 2003, a warm up tour immediately before the WC.
Only a hypocrite would take issue with being pedantic! Genuinely had it in my head as 2002. Marbles going...
TBF it is counterintuitive to go on an SH tour right before a WC in the same place. I only remember the date distinctly because I was very into rugby at the time and watched both games with my Old Streetonians chums at a pub in Angel near my new flat. Which I bought in 2003…
On the subject of the Red Wall, it's a mistake to think of such seats as desperately poor. And, it's important too, to distinguish between those seats that are historic marginal constituencies, like Darlington, the Boltons and the Burys, and those that have been trending Conservative for a long time (Stoke, South Yorkshire, parts of Durham).
Labour has every chance of winning back the marginals, but a much less good chance of winning back those places that are heading in the same direction as seats like NW Leicestershire, Burton, Tamworth, historically marginal, but now solidly Conservative.
WRT the Conservatives "natural supporters", centre-right parties across the world are finding their support comes increasingly from lower middle class and working class homeowners, and decreasingly from the very well off. Of course, they'll still get a lot of support from the latter, but they shouldn't expect to regain the support they had one or two generations ago. Times change. All that matters is winning 326 seats. It doesn't matter which seats those are.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
Don’t be infantile
These men are incels because they are short, or on the spectrum, or weedy, bespectacled, spotty
What are they meant to do? Grow 30 centimeters? Suddenly become big and ripped rather than thin and scrawny? Or maybe they should develop charming personalities overnight, even tho this is impossible if you are naturally shy, gauche and awkward
Stop belittling men, and this real suffering, just because you’re a woman and have never and will never experience it, as incel status is almost universally a male experience
You’re no better than a white person saying to a black person, “you should just act more white”
Tsk. I thought better of you
Oh bollocks!
Men don't have a right to women, let alone the woman of their choice.
Maybe a short, weedy, spotty man needs to end up with a short, chubby, spotty woman, or similar? If you're spending all your time watching porn and expecting a porn stars body on your date, then that's your problem not women's problem.
Leonard: Should we talk to some of these women?
Howard: It’s way too early in the night for that. See, first we let the lawyers and the jocks thin the herd, and then we go after the weak and the old and the lame.
Leonard: That’s your system?
Howard: That’s my system. Oh, and if you spot a chick with a Seeing Eye dog, she’s mine.
Where was the bastion of white privilege, the right wing loons and ignorant racism? The Conservative party. A party now dominated by ethnic minorities with Rishi, the Saj, Nahawi, Braverman (lord help us) and Patel (probbaly beyond even his power) in the front runners. Anyone trying to claim that this country has not changed in a very good way over the last 15-20 years just does not want it to be so.
And, we've reached the stage where ethnic minority Conservative politicians can be criticised on the same terms as their white colleagues.
I think racism is more subtle than generally supposed. I agree we've reached the point where most people are really relaxed about someone they like having a different ethnicity. But it doesn't always stop them having a general aversion to the people of that ethnicity who they don't know.
My father, a thoughtful man who was frank about his own weaknesses, admitted that he used to be prejudiced against Africans, because he instinctively assumed (without much reflection and without knowing any) that they were belligerent loudmouths like Idi Amin. Then he made friends with a colleague from Upper Volta, and in his mind he completely revised his assumptions and accepted that he needed to look at people as individuals.
I'm not sure that most people with racist assumptions have made that change. They can still simultaneously think that Asian-born people are alien to them, while making an exception for someone like Rishi as "not being really Asian", by which they really mean "not like those blokes on the other side of town who make me feel uncomfortable".
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Is this right? I see quite a lot of ugly looking blokes who have managed to pull - including myself! Even plenty of dating apps focus more on personality than looks.
Back in the day I never tried to pull girls who were much taller than me, but I've never had a particular problem and I'm not particularly good looking.
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
Linlithgow is on the train line going directly into Edinburgh and is almost picturesque. Falkirk is a bit further out on the same line and is..not picturesque. Some availability at the Court Residence which gets 'exceptional' rating on booking.com.
Suddenly the choice becomes overwhelming!. Ideally I need 3 rooms for three nights preferably £150-200 a person a night. Is that possible at that time of the year in Edinburgh? Or a boutique type hotel nearby?
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
Tory leadership hopefuls needing a bit of 'common people' cred take note!
"Your Lurpak Spreadable will cost your more under Rishi, but I will ensure every natural-born Briton has a right to affordable, spreadable Lurpak"
A few years ago, I was having a chat with a checkout lady at a local shop. She mentioned that the two things that were shoplifted most were baby milk powder and alcohol.
I can understand someone shoplifting the latter, but baby milk powder?
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
A radical idea this. But men could try making themselves attractive to women.
The internet suggests that usually means learning to do magic tricks?
Unusual for The Guardian to run an article critical of Conservatives.
Let your guard down-she's funny!
Yes yes i know but its tainted by being in that dreary rag of a paper. We can all take the piss out of the Tories but put in in the Guardian and it instantly gets an air of pungent panty bunched earnestness
Maybe cancel your subscription if you aren't enjoying it
No need, they shove it all out for free online so we get to enjoy it regardless
I'd have words with the people holding you down in your chair and forcing you to read. It's just not on.
The modern equivalent of what happened to Alex the droog.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Is this right? I see quite a lot of ugly looking blokes who have managed to pull - including myself! Even plenty of dating apps focus more on personality than looks.
it is right. There are lots of researchers and journalists looking at this
In all honesty Labour ought to be worried if they weren't a long way ahead at this point. The question is whether the decline in the Tory vote is temporary or permanent. I was reading through the thread last night and there was a lot of talk about which candidate would be best etc but we all know from experience how so much depends on the campaign. We have hardly got going yet. Some people will fall flat as a balloon whilst others will surprise us. I just hope it isn't all behind closed doors and MPs have the sense to put candidates in front of the public/media to see how they go down.
In other news the first tranche of Ukrainian troops are coming to be trained in the UK. It all sounds good but the reality is that 10,000 troops is barely a fraction of what they actually need. I'm sure the mass mobilisation continues apace but it might unfortunately give the impression to Brits that the Ukrainian resistance is all rather small scale.
A new leader bounce is to be expected; I wonder though if Sunak is successful then that effect will be depressed because he is already very well known.
From what level do you expect the bounce back when it happens - 33%, 29%, 25%?
I'm not sure the Conservative decline in VI has bottomed out yet, and it may therefore be some time before young Sunil can stop reporting how long it is since the last Tory poll lead.
IMHO, next week's polls will have the Conservatives back in the low to mid thirties. There will be a lot of relief that Johnson is finally going.
But is he going, Sean? In our eyes he may have resigned but in his own I suspect he is just buying time.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
On what planet would he have a single MP left supporting him if he tried to reverse ferret? I mean i just don't get the idea. He has announced his departure in front of Downing Street, he has told the Queen, a leadership election is underway, his cabinet are there solely because he has agreed to go.
'Hes planning to stay!' Is a worse and less pausible twist than season 8 of Game of Thrones
You believe him, Woollie? He's never pulled the wool, dyed or otherwise, over your eyes?
He doesn't give a f*ck about the mayhem he causes. He'll be stopped only if those in a position to restrain him do so. The CP's record on this is not good. Perhaps others can constrain him but personally I won't consider he has gone until he's out of Downing street and Rentokil have fumigated the place.
On the subject of the Red Wall, it's a mistake to think of such seats as desperately poor. And, it's important too, to distinguish between those seats that are historic marginal constituencies, like Darlington, the Boltons and the Burys, and those that have been trending Conservative for a long time (Stoke, South Yorkshire, parts of Durham).
Labour has every chance of winning back the marginals, but a much less good chance of winning back those places that are heading in the same direction as seats like NW Leicestershire, Burton, Tamworth, historically marginal, but now solidly Conservative.
WRT the Conservatives "natural supporters", centre-right parties across the world are finding their support comes increasingly from lower middle class and working class homeowners, and decreasingly from the very well off. Of course, they'll still get a lot of support from the latter, but they shouldn't expect to regain the support they had one or two generations ago. Times change. All that matters is winning 326 seats. It doesn't matter which seats those are.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that either racism or homophobia is on the rise?
The overwhelming, independent, evidence is the polar opposite.
Independent studies show racism and hate crime is on the increase. So the opposite of your contention.
Anyone, ANYONE, who goes to a football game nowadays knows this is the case. It's a serious problem at the moment.
Cricket is I'm afraid facing a huge problem with it. As everyone knows.
Utter bollocks. Racism is a problem, but nothing like the problem it used to be. Any problem is too much though, so any residual racism should be eliminated. Cricket is primarily dealing with allegations of problems that existed and were badly handled pre-2015 too.
What's changed is that acceptance of racism has fallen away, the willingness of people to defend it has vanished, and the willingness of people to call it out has increased. So we talk about it more, even though its less common and normalised. That's a good thing. 👍
I would argue that cricket has been the most effectively anti-racist 'thing' in society over the last 30 years, in that it has, more than pretty much any other 'thing' effectively brought races together and given them something in common, without hectoring them.
@Heathener, are you involved in cricket, at all? I am, a bit. I watch the game live. My daughter is a member at a local club. And I would describe your assertions about cricket as nonsense.
Personally I am pretty convinced that Heathener is another Leon creation.
I wondered if Moon Rabbit was for a while. Or… now that I think of it, perhaps this entire site is one person's incredible magnum opus?
It is remakable really. Me too on Moonrabbit, but if she is, she's an excellent one.
I thought MR might be a creation of Jack's. He's good at that sort of thing...
Where was the bastion of white privilege, the right wing loons and ignorant racism? The Conservative party. A party now dominated by ethnic minorities with Rishi, the Saj, Nahawi, Braverman (lord help us) and Patel (probbaly beyond even his power) in the front runners. Anyone trying to claim that this country has not changed in a very good way over the last 15-20 years just does not want it to be so.
And, we've reached the stage where ethnic minority Conservative politicians can be criticised on the same terms as their white colleagues.
I think racism is more subtle than generally supposed. I agree we've reached the point where most people are really relaxed about someone they like having a different ethnicity. But it doesn't always stop them having a general aversion to the people of that ethnicity who they don't know.
My father, a thoughtful man who was frank about his own weaknesses, admitted that he used to be prejudiced against Africans, because he instinctively assumed (without much reflection and without knowing any) that they were belligerent loudmouths like Idi Amin. Then he made friends with a colleague from Upper Volta, and in his mind he completely revised his assumptions and accepted that he needed to look at people as individuals.
I'm not sure that most people with racist assumptions have made that change. They can still simultaneously think that Asian-born people are alien to them, while making an exception for someone like Rishi as "not being really Asian", by which they really mean "not like those blokes on the other side of town who make me feel uncomfortable".
They key, though, is that it is near universally recognised that racism is bad (even genuine racists know this, and must disguise it), which is actually a change. So prejudices that exist may at least be less pronounced, more fluid in making the exceptions you are talking about, and, one hopes, eventually of negligent impact in society (rather than marginalised impact).
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
Apologies if this has been discussed… five days ago, a GB News commentator declared on air that Starmer had taken out an injunction to suppress the news that he had received a FPN… the clip has since been shared on Twitter with at least one Tory activist urging that it be retweeted widely… should this be tolerated of a broadcaster in this country?
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
Tory leadership hopefuls needing a bit of 'common people' cred take note!
"Your Lurpak Spreadable will cost your more under Rishi, but I will ensure every natural-born Briton has a right to affordable, spreadable Lurpak"
A few years ago, I was having a chat with a checkout lady at a local shop. She mentioned that the two things that were shoplifted most were baby milk powder and alcohol.
I can understand someone shoplifting the latter, but baby milk powder?
I also hope they don't combine the two...
Why the surprise? If you have a baby and no money it's the only alternative. As someone who had a kid who couldn't breast feed, it is pricy too.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It ought to be axiomatic that anybody is entitled to refuse sex to anybody else, without having to justify their reasons for doing so.
No means No.
I will read the essay with interest.
@Cyclefree (and others) I want to ask a question that could easily come across as a dig - I promise it isn't (but this is one of those debates that gets heated easily and things get misconstrued so I wanted to use this preface).
I absolutely agree that no means no. I absolutely agree that anyone's personal sexual preferences should be their own.
What do you make of the argument that if, say, someone could never, ever be attracted to a person of a significantly different skin colour, we might affirm their personal choice and yet still suggest that they harboured a societal prejudice? And that a similar prejudice is on display for someone (whatever their sexual orientation) that would not ever consider having sex with a trans person?
Is (a) the idea this is prejudiced wrong? (b) correct, but not applicable to the case of trans people because of the physical difference in genitalia? (c) something else going on?
For clarity, the whole debate about trans people's status is an area in which I am really not sure about my own views yet, hence the question. It isn't at all loaded.
Apologies if this has been discussed… five days ago, a GB News commentator declared on air that Starmer had taken out an injunction to suppress the news that he had received a FPN… the clip has since been shared on Twitter with at least one Tory activist urging that it be retweeted widely… should this be tolerated of a broadcaster in this country?
Slight problem, he didn't get one, so nothing to suppress ...
YouGov, the only pollster to correctly weigh geographical sub-samples:
London Lab 51% Con 20% LD 19% Grn 6% Ref 1%
Rest of South Con 35% Lab 32% LD 19% Grn 8% Ref 2%
Midlands and Wales Lab 41% Con 31% LD 11% Grn 7% PC 4% Ref 4%
North Lab 52% Con 27% LD 9% Grn 5% Ref 5%
Scotland SNP 49% Lab 21% Con 15% LD 10% Ref 3% Grn 2%
(YouGov/The Times; Sample Size: 1,687; Fieldwork: 6-7 July 2022)
Until the next Tory leader is elected not really relevant.
Wallace might even get an SCon bounce in Scotland being a former MSP, Scots Guard and the type of dull, serious type like May and Brown Scots like
Uncharacteristically brutal!
OT. Any Scots know a good hotel in Edinburgh or close by that might have three rooms mid August?
Try to book it NOW. Mid-festival is a tricky time for in or near Edinburgh. You're already late in booking now so get on with it.
I think I'm already too late. The two or three I've tried have gone. Is there anywhere about 15 miles away which might have somewhere?
Linlithgow is on the train line going directly into Edinburgh and is almost picturesque. Falkirk is a bit further out on the same line and is..not picturesque. Some availability at the Court Residence which gets 'exceptional' rating on booking.com.
Oh god, I forgot to point out that Falkirk is a total shithole when I mentioned it. Good catch. I intended to make it clear but did not. Although the Kelpies at night are WELL worth a visit and it's easy if you're in Falkirk and you have a car. Lit up with slowly changing coloured lights, on a late summer evening as the last of the day turns rusty black, they are one of the most magical sights in the whole of the UK. To stand under the down-facing horse's gaze in the gloaming gives you a primal shiver.
Yeah, the Kelpies are good. On paper it sounds like they may be unbearably kitsch, but they do in fact work really well.
Hmmm, I see what you mean but it never crossed my mind to think of them that way. They're just too well executed to be anything other than magnificent. I don't think I'll ever get bored of them.
Public statuary is a tricky thing, ferinstance I think the Angel of the North is kitsch, and weirdly proportioned to boot.
I do like a bit of equestrian statuary though; the Bannockburn Robert the Bruce does verge a teeny bit on the fashy nationalism embodied in the worst imaginings of Unionists and Daily Mail columnists, but I like it cos it's got a horsey (and is based on a very good, authenticated story).
On the subject of the Red Wall, it's a mistake to think of such seats as desperately poor. And, it's important too, to distinguish between those seats that are historic marginal constituencies, like Darlington, the Boltons and the Burys, and those that have been trending Conservative for a long time (Stoke, South Yorkshire, parts of Durham).
Labour has every chance of winning back the marginals, but a much less good chance of winning back those places that are heading in the same direction as seats like NW Leicestershire, Burton, Tamworth, historically marginal, but now solidly Conservative.
I think this is an important point that the original Red Wall chap himself made I think, but gets lost in the general use to simply mean any former Labour seat in the north.
It's another reason while Boris made the breakthrough, the Tories could hold onto quite a few seats in the area even with someone else. No guarantee, but it was not simply that they liked him and suddenly changed direction.
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
Tory leadership hopefuls needing a bit of 'common people' cred take note!
"Your Lurpak Spreadable will cost your more under Rishi, but I will ensure every natural-born Briton has a right to affordable, spreadable Lurpak"
A few years ago, I was having a chat with a checkout lady at a local shop. She mentioned that the two things that were shoplifted most were baby milk powder and alcohol.
I can understand someone shoplifting the latter, but baby milk powder?
I also hope they don't combine the two...
If you’ve run out of cash, the baby can’t wait till you next get paid.
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
Tory leadership hopefuls needing a bit of 'common people' cred take note!
"Your Lurpak Spreadable will cost your more under Rishi, but I will ensure every natural-born Briton has a right to affordable, spreadable Lurpak"
A few years ago, I was having a chat with a checkout lady at a local shop. She mentioned that the two things that were shoplifted most were baby milk powder and alcohol.
I can understand someone shoplifting the latter, but baby milk powder?
I also hope they don't combine the two...
Why the surprise? If you have a baby and no money it's the only alternative. As someone who had a kid who couldn't breast feed, it is pricy too.
Yeah, I understand the cost (we used it as well, as Mrs J went back to work quickly and I cannot exactly breast-feed...) But a tub lasts a long time, and I'd expect there to be other. more valuable, things to shoplift. Although I guess cigarettes are harder now they're behind the sliding doors.
The blockquoting has gone haywire which is my fault as I was trying to pick it up from the thread that has now become a Boris Johnson i.e. ceased to be.
In particular it was this comment by Foxy: 'racism is either much more marginal or unconscious'.
Quite simply untrue, I'm afraid.
In fact, I'd say that since c. 2015 racism AND homophobia have been on the rise. Brexit has of course stirred that ugly cauldron.
I'm afraid it's alive and kicking and I was responding to the suggestion of the contrary. No need to overreact. It was supposed to be a debate.
Where is the evidence that homophobia is on the rise? As a society we are more open and tolerant than ever before.
There's definitely been a recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks.
And that's an exemplar of the kind of thing that is vile.
Why do you do it? Why do you think it's even remotely acceptable in a civilised society to post something like that? You think it's funny. It isn't.
You can take issue with “cocks” but it’s just vulgar slang
Indisputable? I dispute that there is a serious increase in hatred as such.
The "cotton ceiling" seems to be a myth spread by idiots on both sides online. Where is any such hatred happening in this country, in the real world?
It isn't hatred to oppose those who talk about "the cotton ceiling", but I struggle to find anyone in the real world who actually does. Could you name anyone in this country who actually hates people based on that?
I see you carefully say “real world” so I presume you’re ignoring the net
Yet you shouldn’t. Much of life now takes place online. It is life. See us on here!
And online you can see real and vicious bullying of women who object to the extreme trans agenda. Women lose jobs and careers over this. It’s very “real”
Absolutely I'm excluding the net, much of which is dominated by Russian trolls and not real people.
So yes, real people please. Perhaps you could name some real lesbians in this country and name some real people who've shown hatred towards them because of their refusal to sleep with "ladies with cocks".
So JKRowling doesn’t exist because it all happens online “which is full of Russian trolls”
OK…
JK Rowling is a lesbian being abused for not sleeping with ladies with cocks is she?
That's funny, I thought she was married to a man.
Which ladies with cocks have abused a married straight woman for being a lesbian that won't sleep with them?
No idea. It wasn’t my assertion
It IS my assertion that TRA bullying of women is a real thing. Rowling is an example. Multiple female Guardian journos. Julie Bindel. Kathleen Stock the academic. And many more
Yes that is real, but that wasn't the subject.
The claim was that there has been a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks" and when that was disputed you said it was indisputable.
TRA bullying of feminists, which is very, very real and serious, is not a "recent increase in hatred towards lesbians who refuse to like "ladies" with cocks".
It is feminists and female athletes that seem to get the real brunt of TRA extremists far more than lesbians, in the real world. Can we agree on that?
Did you see this link to this article about the abuse experienced by lesbians who refuse to have sex with male-bodied self-identified transwomen?
Anyone who abuses anyone for not having sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with, is no better than a rapist.
There was a good essay on this topic in the LRB, exploring the space around consent, the need for an absolute right to choose & refuse whoever we want (or do not want) to sleep with & how that impacts the wider issues around prejudice & identity & the modern world of dating.
No strong conclusions IIRC, but rather a “here’s how personal choices (which we have to defend, for obvious reasons) can feed into societal level prejudice that we might want to talk about, because that matters too”. This isn‘t (necessarily) about trans issues - the main focus of the essay was incel culture IIRC.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link - it might be online.
It’s a very real problem: incels - made worse by online dating apps
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
You're using exactly the same logic as "cotton ceiling" advocates use.
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
Where the FUCK do I say “anyone has a right to demand sex from someone else”
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
Is this right? I see quite a lot of ugly looking blokes who have managed to pull - including myself! Even plenty of dating apps focus more on personality than looks.
Comments
But in terms of these regional groupings, I wonder whose convenience it's for. It doesn't feel to me that it helps the polling consumer. Perhaps it helps the pollsters in some way, but it feels slightly cart-before-horse. I'd be much more interested in horizontal segmentations as a default. I just wonder what polling in Leicester can really tell us about the political situation in Llyn, and vice versa.
If you’ve got half the males in your society not getting any, then that is a recipe for severe turmoil. See multiple Islamic societies through the ages
Many mass shootings in America are perped by incels. And you can see why. If you are denied the chance to ever reproduce, and denied the chance to ever enjoy sex, then what is left? Some people can find solace in other things. Many can’t
If you are having difficulty: if it is a one day event, and you are driving up, it might be an idea to look at staying somewhere to the south/east/etc and bussing/training in, or driving to one of the the park and rides around the ring road - Peebles, Galashiels, North Berwick, Dunbar, even Berwick, etc. . But DYR re buses and trains.
The tic that normally gives his various accounts away is the sudden random use of capitals for a single WORD with no logic to it whatsoever.
He just can’t help himself. See for example 1017.
I'm sceptical, and hold some Toyota stock as globally that is the biggest car seller.
Davos Man and Woman, however, would certainly not consider that they themselves are bound by the new austerity. The fruits of office and rent-seeking are what they see as their entitlement.
Be wary of the trains right now. I don't know what the latest is on the no-overtime but a revised timetable as been in place lately, which may seriously limit late evening travel.
Bus services are pretty good, so if you can't find availability in the centre, anything near the ringroad will be fine. Penicuik, Dalkeith, Currie are all very accessible to and from the city centre. I think even Livingston will have good bus links but check that last one.
If you have a car with you and you have a non-drinking driver available, you can obviously stay farther out. Consider the park and rides, the bus services are pretty decent and parking in the centre is a bit of a ballache.
He has a lot of drawbacks. His last Budget was utterly tone-deaf, he clearly doesn't agree with a lot of colleagues on deficit/taxes, and he has precisely the same number of FPNs as Johnson.
True story
I will read the essay with interest.
There is a major amount of risk involved in Tesla shares at the moment, as it certainly is a bet. Worst case, Tesla remains a niche but profitable business - it will have some value, but nothing like its present valuation.
Best case Tesla dominates the car market and profitably expands its technology beyond just cars (see powerwalls etc) in which case its current valuation could undervalue it.
Considering the market is normally supposed to be risk-averse, I would suggest that Tesla is overvalued compared to what it should be, as people seem to have significantly bought into the best case scenario more than risk-adjusted for the worse case scenarios, as would normally happen in the market.
I had a really lovely time in Dunbar once, which is a bit further away but on the ECML. However, trains in Scotland have issues right now.
Anyway I note your eminent view with interest. Personally I suspect we will see 25% before a return to 35% but I'm not betting on it.
We can all take the piss out of the Tories but put in in the Guardian and it instantly gets an air of pungent panty bunched earnestness
Ireland are walking the same path. Perhaps the French might be the biggest challenger?
https://tinyurl.com/4cwsck43
(JUST TO BE CLEAR, I AM BEING SARCASTIC.) (And the caps lock wasn't deliberate, but it works.)
Nobody has a right to demand sex from anyone else. Anyone who wants it, should find someone who wants it with them, and try to make themselves attractive to them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_team_results_2000–2009
One point. Is he a good campaigner?
He wasn't senior enough to play much of a role last time.
And his seat has never been competitive.
How would he do in a debate? I've never heard him comment on much outwith the economy.
These men are incels because they are short, or on the spectrum, or weedy, bespectacled, spotty
What are they meant to do? Grow 30 centimeters? Suddenly become big and ripped rather than thin and scrawny? Or maybe they should develop charming personalities overnight, even tho this is impossible if you are naturally shy, gauche and awkward
Stop belittling men, and this real suffering, just because you’re a woman and have never and will never experience it, as incel status is almost universally a male experience
You’re no better than a white person saying to a black person, “you should just act more white”
Tsk. I thought better of you
I mean i just don't get the idea. He has announced his departure in front of Downing Street, he has told the Queen, a leadership election is underway, his cabinet are there solely because he has agreed to go.
'Hes planning to stay!' Is a worse and less pausible twist than season 8 of Game of Thrones
Although the Kelpies at night are WELL worth a visit and it's easy if you're in Falkirk and you have a car. Lit up with slowly changing coloured lights, on a late summer evening as the last of the day turns rusty black, they are one of the most magical sights in the whole of the UK. To stand under the down-facing horse's gaze in the gloaming gives you a primal shiver.
"I'm not giving in to savages. I just let them come to this meeting." That's a "No You", if ever I heard it.
By the way, time was when 'the Tory herd' was a term of mild abuse directed at Conservative supporters on this site. It was generally playfully intended, but a bit snarky nevertheless. Not sure it's clever for the erstwhile Party Leader to apply it to his own voters.
Surprised there hasn't been more reaction from 'the herd'.
Really? WHERE? Stop putting words in my mouth, you prat
I’m saying this is a real social problem, and it has got majorly worse because of dating apps meaning women don’t give the bottom 50% of men (in terms of looks) even a chance of a conversation. How do we fix it? I dunno. But the stats on young people - especially men - going without sex, are truly alarming
This does not mean an incel man has a right to sex from a woman who does not want to give it. Of course he doesn’t. It’s her body
They're just too well executed to be anything other than magnificent. I don't think I'll ever get bored of them.
I mean, we are familiar with its mania on Megan & Harry, its Royal fixation, its interest in the doings of minor Zelebs, the puff-pieces for Farage, its unhealthy interest in boats that are crossing the Channel, and so on.
But, I have noticed in Mail Online over the last few weeks a new and slightly peculiar obsession.
Lurpak Spreadable.
There are been innumerable articles in the Mail on the price of Lurpak Spreadable, on how supermarkets are having to transfer security tags from bottles of whisky to Lurpak Spreadable to prevent vast shoplifting gangs, voxpops from shoppers stunned by the soaring price of Lurpak Spreadable, how to make your own Lurpak Spreadable, how Aldi's Nordpak Spreadable compares.
And using Google news, I see the Express, the Mirror and the Record are similarly obsessed, e.g.,
https://tinyurl.com/3upcpchz
https://tinyurl.com/527wtavh
https://tinyurl.com/mu9mwna3
Tory leadership hopefuls needing a bit of 'common people' cred take note!
"Your Lurpak Spreadable will cost your more under Rishi, but I will ensure every natural-born Briton has a right to affordable, spreadable Lurpak"
The answer might in the end be AI and VR. Sex bots. But we are a long way from that and s rocky path awaits
No candidate explicitly running on northern issues so far.
The economy is in freefall. As CotE, he's presided over a high tax, low growth economy that is in the doldrums. It's simply not good enough to blame Covid/Ukraine etc. His economic policy has been largely reactive and short-term rather than strategic and long-term. And yet, he wants us to believe that he alone will dispense with the "fairy tales" of the last several years.
His pitch seems to be "it was Boris that made me do it, so it's not my fault". I'm no Tory, but if I were I'd not be convinced. I think his performance as Chancellor will carry more weight than his private financial arrangements.
Another problem solved. I should be PM.
Labour has every chance of winning back the marginals, but a much less good chance of winning back those places that are heading in the same direction as seats like NW Leicestershire, Burton, Tamworth, historically marginal, but now solidly Conservative.
WRT the Conservatives "natural supporters", centre-right parties across the world are finding their support comes increasingly from lower middle class and working class homeowners, and decreasingly from the very well off. Of course, they'll still get a lot of support from the latter, but they shouldn't expect to regain the support they had one or two generations ago. Times change. All that matters is winning 326 seats. It doesn't matter which seats those are.
Men don't have a right to women, let alone the woman of their choice.
Maybe a short, weedy, spotty man needs to end up with a short, chubby, spotty woman, or similar? If you're spending all your time watching porn and expecting a porn stars body on your date, then that's your problem not women's problem.
Leonard: Should we talk to some of these women?
Howard: It’s way too early in the night for that. See, first we let the lawyers and the jocks thin the herd, and then we go after the weak and the old and the lame.
Leonard: That’s your system?
Howard: That’s my system. Oh, and if you spot a chick with a Seeing Eye dog, she’s mine.
My father, a thoughtful man who was frank about his own weaknesses, admitted that he used to be prejudiced against Africans, because he instinctively assumed (without much reflection and without knowing any) that they were belligerent loudmouths like Idi Amin. Then he made friends with a colleague from Upper Volta, and in his mind he completely revised his assumptions and accepted that he needed to look at people as individuals.
I'm not sure that most people with racist assumptions have made that change. They can still simultaneously think that Asian-born people are alien to them, while making an exception for someone like Rishi as "not being really Asian", by which they really mean "not like those blokes on the other side of town who make me feel uncomfortable".
I can understand someone shoplifting the latter, but baby milk powder?
I also hope they don't combine the two...
https://unherd.com/2020/02/why-incels-are-the-losers-in-the-age-of-tinder/
He doesn't give a f*ck about the mayhem he causes. He'll be stopped only if those in a position to restrain him do so. The CP's record on this is not good. Perhaps others can constrain him but personally I won't consider he has gone until he's out of Downing street and Rentokil have fumigated the place.
Edit: not specific to Merseyside tbf.
https://www.timeout.com/london/news/oh-no-asda-has-started-security-tagging-butter-and-dairy-070622
As someone who had a kid who couldn't breast feed, it is pricy too.
I absolutely agree that no means no. I absolutely agree that anyone's personal sexual preferences should be their own.
What do you make of the argument that if, say, someone could never, ever be attracted to a person of a significantly different skin colour, we might affirm their personal choice and yet still suggest that they harboured a societal prejudice? And that a similar prejudice is on display for someone (whatever their sexual orientation) that would not ever consider having sex with a trans person?
Is
(a) the idea this is prejudiced wrong?
(b) correct, but not applicable to the case of trans people because of the physical difference in genitalia?
(c) something else going on?
For clarity, the whole debate about trans people's status is an area in which I am really not sure about my own views yet, hence the question. It isn't at all loaded.
I do like a bit of equestrian statuary though; the Bannockburn Robert the Bruce does verge a teeny bit on the fashy nationalism embodied in the worst imaginings of Unionists and Daily Mail columnists, but I like it cos it's got a horsey (and is based on a very good, authenticated story).
It's another reason while Boris made the breakthrough, the Tories could hold onto quite a few seats in the area even with someone else. No guarantee, but it was not simply that they liked him and suddenly changed direction.