Not enough to topple Johnson before the next election. But enough to leave the stench of criminality around him for good.
Far too early to say that.
If the Met determine the PM broke the law (considering the flat is one investigated by them) then surely that is the end of Boris.
If the Met determine the law wasn't broken, then that should be the end of the matter too.
Either way, I don't see how this can drag on until the election.
That's a reframing in his favour that doesn't work. The bar is whether he lied to Parliament not whether he gets a fixed penalty notice. If he lied to Parliament he must go. Or to put it differently, if the evidence shows he lied to Parliament about these rule-breaking parties in the middle of a pandemic but he *still* won't resign, Tory MPs simply must remove him. And if they don't the public must punish them with a shellacking in the polls and a landslide loss of seats. If none of this happens we're fucked. It's Banana Republic and total loss of self-respect here we come.
Whether the law was broken, or whether the rules were broken, is the same thing.
Guidelines are not rules. They're guidelines. Laws are the rules.
This lies to Parliament thing is weird because if the threshold to say he lied has been met, the threshold he has to go for other reasons has also already been met. So yes if he's lied to Parliament he should go, but in this case it's an unnecessary and redundant condition.
No, if he lied it doesn't follow he'll get a penalty notice. Likewise if he doesn't get a penalty notice it doesn't follow he didn't lie.
He said he had no knowledge of rule-breaking events. Will the Gray Report (when we get the proper one) and/or the Met investigation show that to be a lie?
Let's see.
If the PM knew the law was being broken by either himself or his team and did nothing about it then he should resign. Whether he'd said to the House that the law wasn't being broken or not.
Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
Yep. And PMs cannot be liars to parliaments. Either should be enough to end him unless he and the Tory Party wish to take up residence in the gutter.
Indeed but you're trying to set up lying to Parliament as somehow a lower or easier bar to clear than proving knowledge of lawbreaking. It isn't.
If he knew about lawbreaking and did nothing he should resign. If he doesn't, he hasn't lied.
I find the latter implausible given the evidence we know about. But at the end of the day if its not shown he knew about lawbreaking, then its not shown he lied either.
The Lying To Parliament charge is not escaped by dint of the police deciding not to issue any tickets. That doesn't scan. But, yep, I agree it looks implausible he's clean on any metric.
If the Police can't substantiate that the law was broken, then how is it shown he knew the law was broken?
Surely the Police will have to issue fines as the evidence is there from everything that's been reported. If that reporting is wrong, which I can't see happening, then that would be an unexpected acquittal.
Lying to Parliament is absolutely a resigning offence, whether laws were broken or not. It is absolutely clear from the Ministerial Code that any minister who lies to Parliament is expected to resign.
“It is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister.”
Yes I 100% agree.
However my point is that what it's alleged he'd lied about would be a resigning offence even if he'd never lied about it. So the lie itself is both bad and moot he'd need to go even without the lie.
If he knew about lawbreaking in his office and did nothing about it then he'd have to resign, even if he'd never said he didn't know about the law breaking.
It's not like lawmakers being lawbreakers is perfectly fine so long as they don't deny lawbreaking.
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
France?
I speak French, good location, the French have excellent food, and plus, I can taunt French people in person.
I would celebrate July 3rd like Bastille Day.
I am sure you would find Macron very much to your taste, far more so than Boris or Starmer
Quebec is very French but also in Canada
A blend of both
I was in a mixed international group visiting Quebec some years ago and the French restaurant we went to only accepted their orders in French, resulting in the Americans being thrown out and my gratitude to my o level French pass
Surely all you have to do is read out what it says on the menu followed by s'il vous plait? Surely even an American can do that?
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
Remember when Graham Brady said he'd accept emails from Conservative MPs expressing no confidence in Boris Johnson?
That was FORTY SIX days ago.
The tooth is still rotting in the mouth. It still needs pulling. But now it's just hurting the Conservatives more and more. Completely avoidable, entirely too slow. What this delay tells us is that at least 300 Conservative MPs are useless. I wish we knew who are the ones who could see where this was going and had their letters in before Christmas, but whoever they are (if any), they are surrounded by cattle.
One of the difficulties is the payroll vote. That means that to get to 54 it is a lot harder than it at first appears. A lot of MPs won't trust the anonymity, so will probably hold off unless they think it is essential
One of the commentators said that it's thought if they get the 54 letters he will more than likely lose the vote
Not enough to topple Johnson before the next election. But enough to leave the stench of criminality around him for good.
Far too early to say that.
If the Met determine the PM broke the law (considering the flat is one investigated by them) then surely that is the end of Boris.
If the Met determine the law wasn't broken, then that should be the end of the matter too.
Either way, I don't see how this can drag on until the election.
That's a reframing in his favour that doesn't work. The bar is whether he lied to Parliament not whether he gets a fixed penalty notice. If he lied to Parliament he must go. Or to put it differently, if the evidence shows he lied to Parliament about these rule-breaking parties in the middle of a pandemic but he *still* won't resign, Tory MPs simply must remove him. And if they don't the public must punish them with a shellacking in the polls and a landslide loss of seats. If none of this happens we're fucked. It's Banana Republic and total loss of self-respect here we come.
Whether the law was broken, or whether the rules were broken, is the same thing.
Guidelines are not rules. They're guidelines. Laws are the rules.
This lies to Parliament thing is weird because if the threshold to say he lied has been met, the threshold he has to go for other reasons has also already been met. So yes if he's lied to Parliament he should go, but in this case it's an unnecessary and redundant condition.
No, if he lied it doesn't follow he'll get a penalty notice. Likewise if he doesn't get a penalty notice it doesn't follow he didn't lie.
He said he had no knowledge of rule-breaking events. Will the Gray Report (when we get the proper one) and/or the Met investigation show that to be a lie?
Let's see.
If the PM knew the law was being broken by either himself or his team and did nothing about it then he should resign. Whether he'd said to the House that the law wasn't being broken or not.
Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
Yep. And PMs cannot be liars to parliaments. Either should be enough to end him unless he and the Tory Party wish to take up residence in the gutter.
Indeed but you're trying to set up lying to Parliament as somehow a lower or easier bar to clear than proving knowledge of lawbreaking. It isn't.
If he knew about lawbreaking and did nothing he should resign. If he doesn't, he hasn't lied.
I find the latter implausible given the evidence we know about. But at the end of the day if its not shown he knew about lawbreaking, then its not shown he lied either.
The Lying To Parliament charge is not escaped by dint of the police deciding not to issue any tickets. That doesn't scan. But, yep, I agree it looks implausible he's clean on any metric.
If the Police can't substantiate that the law was broken, then how is it shown he knew the law was broken?
Surely the Police will have to issue fines as the evidence is there from everything that's been reported. If that reporting is wrong, which I can't see happening, then that would be an unexpected acquittal.
Lying to Parliament is absolutely a resigning offence, whether laws were broken or not. It is absolutely clear from the Ministerial Code that any minister who lies to Parliament is expected to resign.
“It is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister.”
Yes I 100% agree.
However my point is that what it's alleged he'd lied about would be a resigning offence even if he'd never lied about it. So the lie itself is both bad and moot he'd need to go even without the lie.
If he knew about lawbreaking in his office and did nothing about it then he'd have to resign, even if he'd never said he didn't know about the law breaking.
It's not like lawmakers being lawbreakers is perfectly fine so long as they don't deny lawbreaking.
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Yes, and it would have been even better to have gone on Ukraine last week to get some quotes from the PM to quote on Wednesday.
Remember when Graham Brady said he'd accept emails from Conservative MPs expressing no confidence in Boris Johnson?
That was FORTY SIX days ago.
The tooth is still rotting in the mouth. It still needs pulling. But now it's just hurting the Conservatives more and more. Completely avoidable, entirely too slow. What this delay tells us is that at least 300 Conservative MPs are useless. I wish we knew who are the ones who could see where this was going and had their letters in before Christmas, but whoever they are (if any), they are surrounded by cattle.
One of the difficulties is the payroll vote. That means that to get to 54 it is a lot harder than it at first appears. A lot of MPs won't trust the anonymity, so will probably hold off unless they think it is essential
One of the commentators said that it's thought if they get the 54 letters he will more than likely lose the vote
That is my view, because he really is not liked by the parliamentary party.
Never heard anything from a PM in the Commons as disgraceful as Boris' reply to Starmer today. Absolubtely shameful.
Six O’Clock News not showing that bit.
Strange that given where Jimmy Saville got most his TV work from.
I think it’s more that they are very cautious about these things. I think they should show it to show people what kind of person the PM is. But they probably think that they don’t want to do that and potentially it does what Johnson wants (distraction).
Similarly, the BBC didn’t show SKS’s rather misjudged “tool maker” joke in his party conference speech.
Maybe the BBC doesn't want to repeat a defamatory remark, even though Johnson making it is newsworthy.
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
The one way to get the Tories to hold off is to get Labour to start playing games, Boris was saved last time by an ill timed defection.
Never heard anything from a PM in the Commons as disgraceful as Boris' reply to Starmer today. Absolubtely shameful.
Six O’Clock News not showing that bit.
Strange that given where Jimmy Saville got most his TV work from.
I think it’s more that they are very cautious about these things. I think they should show it to show people what kind of person the PM is. But they probably think that they don’t want to do that and potentially it does what Johnson wants (distraction).
Similarly, the BBC didn’t show SKS’s rather misjudged “tool maker” joke in his party conference speech.
Maybe the BBC doesn't want to repeat a defamatory remark, even though Johnson making it is newsworthy.
You can quote what's said in parliament, provided you quote it right
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
France?
I speak French, good location, the French have excellent food, and plus, I can taunt French people in person.
I would celebrate July 3rd like Bastille Day.
I am sure you would find Macron very much to your taste, far more so than Boris or Starmer
Quebec is very French but also in Canada
A blend of both
I was in a mixed international group visiting Quebec some years ago and the French restaurant we went to only accepted their orders in French, resulting in the Americans being thrown out and my gratitude to my o level French pass
Surely all you have to do is read out what it says on the menu followed by s'il vous plait? Surely even an American can do that?
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
The one way to get the Tories to hold off is to get Labour to start playing games, Boris was saved last time by an ill timed defection.
As I've said before I think it is now a win-win for Labour. If he goes, they defeated the PM. If he stays they know they have Big Clown there doing his damage to the Tory brand. I think on balance they'd like him to resign though.
Apart from Johnson himself, and possibly Liz Truss, who actually wants him to go to Ukraine tonight?
Putin
Someone else posted that, too. Why?
Why would Putin want Johnson in Ukraine? Because:
1. Johnson is a Putinist, who is helping (wittingly or not) to advance Putin's agenda
2. Johnson fucks up everything he touches, so having him on the West's "team" is (another) plus for Putin.
Careful, you're in danger of reminding the Brexit supporters on here that they voted to give Putin (and Xi) his biggest foreign policy win.
And they don't like being reminded of that. Well, at least the decent ones.
At the moment which Nato leader is doing most to stand up to Putin? Not the EU President, Macron, Scholz or Biden but Boris, PM of post Brexit Britain.
Under Boris post Brexit Britain also has agreed a defence alliance with Biden's US and Morrison's Australia to contain Xi's China
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Don't rule him out of actually being in Ukraine on Wednesday
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Don't rule him out of actually being in Ukraine on Wednesday
Never heard anything from a PM in the Commons as disgraceful as Boris' reply to Starmer today. Absolubtely shameful.
Six O’Clock News not showing that bit.
Strange that given where Jimmy Saville got most his TV work from.
I think it’s more that they are very cautious about these things. I think they should show it to show people what kind of person the PM is. But they probably think that they don’t want to do that and potentially it does what Johnson wants (distraction).
Similarly, the BBC didn’t show SKS’s rather misjudged “tool maker” joke in his party conference speech.
Maybe the BBC doesn't want to repeat a defamatory remark, even though Johnson making it is newsworthy.
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Don't rule him out of actually being in Ukraine on Wednesday
Stranger things have happened
The ideal time to spend the 54th letter would be just before Boris went abroad - does he turn back in a hurry or try to fight from abroad.
Apart from Johnson himself, and possibly Liz Truss, who actually wants him to go to Ukraine tonight?
Putin
Someone else posted that, too. Why?
Why would Putin want Johnson in Ukraine? Because:
1. Johnson is a Putinist, who is helping (wittingly or not) to advance Putin's agenda
2. Johnson fucks up everything he touches, so having him on the West's "team" is (another) plus for Putin.
Careful, you're in danger of reminding the Brexit supporters on here that they voted to give Putin (and Xi) his biggest foreign policy win.
And they don't like being reminded of that. Well, at least the decent ones.
At the moment which Nato leader is doing most to stand up to Putin? Not the EU President, Macron, Scholz or Biden but Boris, PM of post Brexit Britain
From your somewhat biased perspective. I imagine Putin thinks of Big Clown the same way most of us on here think of him. A joke leader that just keeps on giving.
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
It was actually quite sunny in southern England today too in the day.
Temperature in Winnipeg at the moment however is -9 degrees Celsius.
In London it is 7 degrees celcius
Yep. It’s v cold here in New York.
But my kids loved sledding through Central Park yesterday and the sky is bright blue. It’s like being in the Alps.
I'm relocating back to New Haven CT within the next couple of years. It's bloody cold round those parts but its light. I don't mind cold if I can have some daylight past 4pm in the depths of winter.
Hopefully Boris's dealings with the party go the way of Gordian III bargaining with the Roman army
“When the army had elected Philip, who was Prætorian præfect to the third Gordian, the latter demanded that he might remain sole emperor; he was unable to obtain it. He requested that the power might be equally divided between them; the army would not listen to his speech. He consented to be degraded to the rank of Cæsar; the favor was refused him. He desired, at least, he might be appointed Prætorian præfect; his prayer was rejected. Finally, he pleaded for his life. The army, in these several judgments, exercised the supreme magistracy.
According to the historian, whose doubtful narrative the President De Montesquieu has adopted, Philip, who, during the whole transaction, had preserved a sullen silence, was inclined to spare the innocent life of his benefactor; till, recollecting that his innocence might excite a dangerous compassion in the Roman world, he commanded, without regard to his suppliant cries, that he should be seized, stripped, and led away to instant death. After a moment’s pause, the inhuman sentence was executed. "
Apart from Johnson himself, and possibly Liz Truss, who actually wants him to go to Ukraine tonight?
Putin
Someone else posted that, too. Why?
Why would Putin want Johnson in Ukraine? Because:
1. Johnson is a Putinist, who is helping (wittingly or not) to advance Putin's agenda
2. Johnson fucks up everything he touches, so having him on the West's "team" is (another) plus for Putin.
Careful, you're in danger of reminding the Brexit supporters on here that they voted to give Putin (and Xi) his biggest foreign policy win.
And they don't like being reminded of that. Well, at least the decent ones.
At the moment which Nato leader is doing most to stand up to Putin? Not the EU President, Macron, Scholz or Biden but Boris, PM of post Brexit Britain.
Under Boris post Brexit Britain also has agrees a defence alliance with Biden's US and Morrison's Australia to contain Xi's China
“Hello I wanted to speak to President Putin to tell him how awful he is being. But I have to rearrange the call due to unforeseen circumstances. Can you push it to later? You can’t? Oh. Bye then.”
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Vancouver isn't cold. Nor is populated Canada darker. It's much further south than us. Most Canadians live south of Seattle. One of my favourite facts.
Winnipeg has over 600,000 people and is -6 Celsius today. Edmonton has over 1 million people and is -15 degrees Celsius today.
Parts of populated Canada certainly do get very cold in winter
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
The one way to get the Tories to hold off is to get Labour to start playing games, Boris was saved last time by an ill timed defection.
As I've said before I think it is now a win-win for Labour. If he goes, they defeated the PM. If he stays they know they have Big Clown there doing his damage to the Tory brand. I think on balance they'd like him to resign though.
Boris being at No 10 is still a winner for Labour so I don't see them exerting that much effort to help him be removed.
Especially when it's got nothing to do with Labour and everything to do with what Tory MPs want / think is best for them.
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Don't rule him out of actually being in Ukraine on Wednesday
Me neither, so I looked it up for myself - very popular in the last two decades of the Long Nineteenth Century. Wiki says "The plays of Feydeau are marked by closely observed characters, with whom his audiences could identify, plunged into fast-moving comic plots of mistaken identity, attempted adultery, split-second timing and a precariously happy ending."
I'm genuinely astonished that anyone here didn't know what a Feydeau farce is. My assumptions of what constitutes our common body of culture is clearly wrong.
If done well, they are amongst the funniest plays you will ever see. However, I do remember an absolutely excruciating National Theatre performance of 'Occupe toi d'Amélie' (in English) many years ago, which we took my sister-in-law and her husband to. Having promised them a really entertaining evening - it's one of the funniest of his plays - it was so dire that by common consent we left at the interval.
Thanks! I se quite a few have been made into films, most recently Hotel Paradiso, but for some reason I have missed those.
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
When it comes to grey hardly anywhere beats the UK.
Yes.
I frankly came to dread the U.K. winter. And that was London. Christ knows what it’s like in, say, Glasgow.
Southwest of Glasgow at coast is very mild , can be a bit wet but extremely pleasant. Plenty of nice bracing days , bit of sunshine and a few gales but perfectly lovely. Days are short mind you but you get bonus of only a few hours dark in summer so cannot complain.
Afternoon, Malc.
I miss Scotland terribly as I haven’t been able to get up there for going on years now. I’m looking forward to the Scottish Tartan Parade here in NYC in April which will be hosted by Karen Gillan.
Vancouver isn't cold. Nor is populated Canada darker. It's much further south than us. Most Canadians live south of Seattle. One of my favourite facts.
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
I don't like Johnson and I want him to go but one has to admire his comprehensive takedown of Starmer was superb. First the Saville put down which the BBC are loving. Second the Starmer supported Corbyn who supported Putin put down, and I fell off my chair at the drug taking allegation.
Brandon Lewis on R4 PM thought the PM had equipped himself well. Sadly I have to agree. The punters will love the Big Dog
I do wonder how many of the breaches of the rules - let alone the guidelines - were by Carrie and her friends.
I suspect quite a few. The PM could argue that he had a reasonable excuse to be in the office. Carrie none. Nor Lulu or other friends.
That may explain some of his behaviour. He simply cannot - or dare not - admit something which would put his wife in the frame.
FWIW, this is where my thinking has gone. Hence, the 'check the official diaries' comment earlier.
I've just had a horrible vision of BoJo stifling tears and saying that he has been acting all along to protect his wife and that he personally had no involvement in any wrongdoing..
Why can't he just blame her? Gets the heatd off him, and she's not official any more than, say, a Speaker's wife is.
She goes to the press
Yepp. Carrie knows where all the bodies are buried.
Boris is so bone idle she will have probably had to bury them for him (allegedly)
Robert Peston @Peston · 2m The PM is taking a huge personal risk in rejecting Tory MP demands to publish Sue Gray’s more definitive “full” report - because he is removing from them any incentive to delay their decisions to send in letters of no confidence in his leadership
He's calling their bluff - at this point while more would emerge in a full report it is unlikely to change all that many minds. So if they want him gone, he does not want them justifying it to themselves on the basis of some drip drip revelation, he wants them to nail their colours to the mast.
I'm reminded of those MPs who were waiting for DUP approval before voting for or against a Brexit deal, in essence giving up their responsibility to make a decision by hinging their decision on another group.
Not enough to topple Johnson before the next election. But enough to leave the stench of criminality around him for good.
Far too early to say that.
If the Met determine the PM broke the law (considering the flat is one investigated by them) then surely that is the end of Boris.
If the Met determine the law wasn't broken, then that should be the end of the matter too.
Either way, I don't see how this can drag on until the election.
That's a reframing in his favour that doesn't work. The bar is whether he lied to Parliament not whether he gets a fixed penalty notice. If he lied to Parliament he must go. Or to put it differently, if the evidence shows he lied to Parliament about these rule-breaking parties in the middle of a pandemic but he *still* won't resign, Tory MPs simply must remove him. And if they don't the public must punish them with a shellacking in the polls and a landslide loss of seats. If none of this happens we're fucked. It's Banana Republic and total loss of self-respect here we come.
Whether the law was broken, or whether the rules were broken, is the same thing.
Guidelines are not rules. They're guidelines. Laws are the rules.
This lies to Parliament thing is weird because if the threshold to say he lied has been met, the threshold he has to go for other reasons has also already been met. So yes if he's lied to Parliament he should go, but in this case it's an unnecessary and redundant condition.
No, if he lied it doesn't follow he'll get a penalty notice. Likewise if he doesn't get a penalty notice it doesn't follow he didn't lie.
He said he had no knowledge of rule-breaking events. Will the Gray Report (when we get the proper one) and/or the Met investigation show that to be a lie?
Let's see.
If the PM knew the law was being broken by either himself or his team and did nothing about it then he should resign. Whether he'd said to the House that the law wasn't being broken or not.
Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
Yep. And PMs cannot be liars to parliaments. Either should be enough to end him unless he and the Tory Party wish to take up residence in the gutter.
Indeed but you're trying to set up lying to Parliament as somehow a lower or easier bar to clear than proving knowledge of lawbreaking. It isn't.
If he knew about lawbreaking and did nothing he should resign. If he doesn't, he hasn't lied.
I find the latter implausible given the evidence we know about. But at the end of the day if its not shown he knew about lawbreaking, then its not shown he lied either.
The Lying To Parliament charge is not escaped by dint of the police deciding not to issue any tickets. That doesn't scan. But, yep, I agree it looks implausible he's clean on any metric.
If the Police can't substantiate that the law was broken, then how is it shown he knew the law was broken?
Surely the Police will have to issue fines as the evidence is there from everything that's been reported. If that reporting is wrong, which I can't see happening, then that would be an unexpected acquittal.
Lying to Parliament is absolutely a resigning offence, whether laws were broken or not. It is absolutely clear from the Ministerial Code that any minister who lies to Parliament is expected to resign.
“It is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister.”
Yes I 100% agree.
However my point is that what it's alleged he'd lied about would be a resigning offence even if he'd never lied about it. So the lie itself is both bad and moot he'd need to go even without the lie.
If he knew about lawbreaking in his office and did nothing about it then he'd have to resign, even if he'd never said he didn't know about the law breaking.
It's not like lawmakers being lawbreakers is perfectly fine so long as they don't deny lawbreaking.
This government proclaimed it is fine, as long as the law breaking was done in a limited and specific way.
Some Tory MPs are not feeling favourable towards the PM this eve.
One senior Tory who is usually loyal described his Commons turn as "a total and utter train wreck" adding "the mood is utterly dire"
Another MP "He’s made us all look corrupt and made the country feel like fools"
Another senior party aide said No10 may have misjudged the tone: "Today was not a day to come out swinging"
***
The answer to that is, if you turn out to be, say, Fred West, things have moved on beyond the question of what's the best tone in which to discuss your activities
One thing that sticks out to me in Boris' response to Aaron Bell was that he used the word "may" in relation to events that we know occurred in No 10 and the Cabinet Office that he presided over. He still hasn't admitted that he was wrong.
I really, really hope that Tory MPs grow a fucking spine and get rid of this fool before he does more damage to the country. The UK PM being unable to get a direct line to Putin at a time when Russia are gearing up for war because he's having to defend his own personal failures damages the credibility of the country.
PMQs on Wednesday
Has the PM been able to speak to Putin about the Ukraine?
Why was he unable to make the scheduled phone call?
Don't rule him out of actually being in Ukraine on Wednesday
Not surprised Hoyle is upset. Blackford made an assertion which he is not allowed to make under parliamentary rules, about another member lying to the House, but which is incontrovertible in the case of Johnson. Johnson is also not allowed to lie to the House and actually lying is obviously far more serious than making allegations, but there is no available sanction against him.
The system is at fault and Blackford (justifiably in my view) is exploiting this failure.
I think Hoyle's problem is that he and everyone else nows Boris has lied to the house but there isn't 100% clear unavoidable evidence to say as much yet.
Which means Parliament can't do anything about it. Personally I would be given Blackford a 9 day ban - because it would leave 10+ days as the only possible punishment when Boris is found to be lying and 10 days triggers a recall petition.
The issue is slightly different IMO. The system assumes members are honourable people and if they misled the House it was inadvertent or they could pretend it was, they will fess up and everyone will move on. The system isn't designed for prime ministers as fundamentally dishonest as Boris Johnson.
They badly need lying to the House to be brought within the disciplinary process. The Committed would establish the facts of any allegations of lying with a potential penalty of being excluded from parliament.
Quite so, which makes it odd that the Speaker didn't accept Mr Blackford's offer to say 'inadevertently misled'. Why not?
Thing is we're all saying how amazing Aaron Bell is but was he not paying attention on PB. Plenty of people have been saying for ages on here how manifestly unfit Boris is for office.
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
When it comes to grey hardly anywhere beats the UK.
Yes.
I frankly came to dread the U.K. winter. And that was London. Christ knows what it’s like in, say, Glasgow.
Southwest of Glasgow at coast is very mild , can be a bit wet but extremely pleasant. Plenty of nice bracing days , bit of sunshine and a few gales but perfectly lovely. Days are short mind you but you get bonus of only a few hours dark in summer so cannot complain.
Hello Malky - lovely sunny morning over in the east with some radiation frost and the white just on the hills.
Prestwick Airport was specifically located in Ayrshire of course because it has little fog/mist/haar - important in the old days without blind landing aids and with urban smog inland. But I don't know how wide that meteorological phenomenon extends.
Apart from Johnson himself, and possibly Liz Truss, who actually wants him to go to Ukraine tonight?
Putin
Someone else posted that, too. Why?
Why would Putin want Johnson in Ukraine? Because:
1. Johnson is a Putinist, who is helping (wittingly or not) to advance Putin's agenda
2. Johnson fucks up everything he touches, so having him on the West's "team" is (another) plus for Putin.
Careful, you're in danger of reminding the Brexit supporters on here that they voted to give Putin (and Xi) his biggest foreign policy win.
And they don't like being reminded of that. Well, at least the decent ones.
At the moment which Nato leader is doing most to stand up to Putin? Not the EU President, Macron, Scholz or Biden but Boris, PM of post Brexit Britain.
Under Boris post Brexit Britain also has agreed a defence alliance with Biden's US and Morrison's Australia to contain Xi's China
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
When it comes to grey hardly anywhere beats the UK.
Yes.
I frankly came to dread the U.K. winter. And that was London. Christ knows what it’s like in, say, Glasgow.
Southwest of Glasgow at coast is very mild , can be a bit wet but extremely pleasant. Plenty of nice bracing days , bit of sunshine and a few gales but perfectly lovely. Days are short mind you but you get bonus of only a few hours dark in summer so cannot complain.
Afternoon, Malc.
I miss Scotland terribly as I haven’t been able to get up there for going on years now. I’m looking forward to the Scottish Tartan Parade here in NYC in April which will be hosted by Karen Gillan.
Thing is we're all saying how amazing Aaron Bell is but was he not paying attention on PB. Plenty of people have been saying for ages on here how manifestly unfit Boris is for office.
Some Tory MPs are not feeling favourable towards the PM this eve.
One senior Tory who is usually loyal described his Commons turn as "a total and utter train wreck" adding "the mood is utterly dire"
Another MP "He’s made us all look corrupt and made the country feel like fools"
Another senior party aide said No10 may have misjudged the tone: "Today was not a day to come out swinging"
***
The answer to that is, if you turn out to be, say, Fred West, things have moved on beyond the question of what's the best tone in which to discuss your activities
Or, indeed, Mr West complaining that the polis didn't do a good job of prosecuting Mr Saville.
Thing is we're all saying how amazing Aaron Bell is but was he not paying attention on PB. Plenty of people have been saying for ages on here how manifestly unfit Boris is for office.
Not surprised Hoyle is upset. Blackford made an assertion which he is not allowed to make under parliamentary rules, about another member lying to the House, but which is incontrovertible in the case of Johnson. Johnson is also not allowed to lie to the House and actually lying is obviously far more serious than making allegations, but there is no available sanction against him.
The system is at fault and Blackford (justifiably in my view) is exploiting this failure.
I think Hoyle's problem is that he and everyone else nows Boris has lied to the house but there isn't 100% clear unavoidable evidence to say as much yet.
Which means Parliament can't do anything about it. Personally I would be given Blackford a 9 day ban - because it would leave 10+ days as the only possible punishment when Boris is found to be lying and 10 days triggers a recall petition.
The issue is slightly different IMO. The system assumes members are honourable people and if they misled the House it was inadvertent or they could pretend it was, they will fess up and everyone will move on. The system isn't designed for prime ministers as fundamentally dishonest as Boris Johnson.
They badly need lying to the House to be brought within the disciplinary process. The Committed would establish the facts of any allegations of lying with a potential penalty of being excluded from parliament.
Quite so, which makes it odd that the Speaker didn't accept Mr Blackford's offer to say 'inadevertently misled'. Why not?
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
I don't like Johnson and I want him to go but one has to admire his comprehensive takedown of Starmer was superb. First the Saville put down which the BBC are loving.
I do wonder how many of the breaches of the rules - let alone the guidelines - were by Carrie and her friends.
I suspect
That may explain some of his behaviour. He simply cannot - or dare not - admit something which would put his wife in the frame.
FWIW, this is where my thinking has gone. Hence, the 'check the official diaries' comment earlier.
I've just had a horrible vision of BoJo stifling tears and saying that he has been acting all along to protect his wife and that he personally had no involvement in any wrongdoing..
Why can't he just blame her? Gets the heatd off him, and she's not official any more than, say, a Speaker's wife is.
She goes to the press
Ye
Bo
You keep repeating this on here every few minutes but that doesn't make it any the more true.
No one else, literally no one else, thinks it was a smart move. The jibe lowered the tone still further and by linking Savile to the debate today, the impression people come away with is not what you think. It's of two disresputable people who got off without investigation.
And I'm sure you don't really mean to be saying that the BBC loved the Savile comment. I mean, apart from not knowing how to spell his name, do you not know anything about the background to Jimmy Savile and the BBC?
Wow - Boris responded to an accusation of drug taking in no 10 said, no you should look at the Labour front bench
I'd say children know that pointing out others are doing wrong is not the right thing to do, except actually we do learn early on that it is pretty effective.
Lying to Parliament is absolutely a resigning offence, whether laws were broken or not. It is absolutely clear from the Ministerial Code that any minister who lies to Parliament is expected to resign.
“It is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister.”
Offer it to the Prime Minister, eh? Does he have to accept it?
Thing is we're all saying how amazing Aaron Bell is but was he not paying attention on PB. Plenty of people have been saying for ages on here how manifestly unfit Boris is for office.
Apart from Johnson himself, and possibly Liz Truss, who actually wants him to go to Ukraine tonight?
Putin
Someone else posted that, too. Why?
Why would Putin want Johnson in Ukraine? Because:
1. Johnson is a Putinist, who is helping (wittingly or not) to advance Putin's agenda
2. Johnson fucks up everything he touches, so having him on the West's "team" is (another) plus for Putin.
Careful, you're in danger of reminding the Brexit supporters on here that they voted to give Putin (and Xi) his biggest foreign policy win.
And they don't like being reminded of that. Well, at least the decent ones.
At the moment which Nato leader is doing most to stand up to Putin? Not the EU President, Macron, Scholz or Biden but Boris, PM of post Brexit Britain.
Under Boris post Brexit Britain also has agreed a defence alliance with Biden's US and Morrison's Australia to contain Xi's China
AUKUS is a procurement and technology pact, not an alliance. There is no mutual defence obligation outside of existing treaties.
I don’t really get what @Mexicanpete is talking about. Is it sarcasm? I can’t tell.
Boris’s Savile jibe may be the thing that ends him. It was breathtakingly dishonest. As I posted upthread, I was shaking in anger. And reports suggest a decent number (enough?) of Tory MPs were similarly disgusted.
Lying to Parliament is absolutely a resigning offence, whether laws were broken or not. It is absolutely clear from the Ministerial Code that any minister who lies to Parliament is expected to resign.
“It is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister.”
Offer it to the Prime Minister, eh? Does he have to accept it?
One curiosity in all the MPs questions, why has no one ever asked him to recuse himself from the decisions around publication? Even if it needs to be a government politician it could be someone like Sunak, Gove, Raab or Braverman.
It is crazy that an investigation depends on the person being investigated to be willing to release the details.
Re: BJ tripping to Ukraine, yours truly is old enough to remember how Nixon went on a foreign trip to Egypt not long before he gave the Big Wave from the Rose Garden.
Thing is we're all saying how amazing Aaron Bell is but was he not paying attention on PB. Plenty of people have been saying for ages on here how manifestly unfit Boris is for office.
David Gauke @DavidGauke Conservative MPs now know that when the final Sue Gray report is published it will be damning. They don't need to wait any longer to act.
It' s a good feeling to have a decent leader of the opposition at last and improving with every outing. He looked dominating today in a way we haven't seen since Blair.
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
I don't like Johnson and I want him to go but one has to admire his comprehensive takedown of Starmer was superb. First the Saville put down which the BBC are loving.
I do wonder how many of the breaches of the rules - let alone the guidelines - were by Carrie and her friends.
I suspect
That may explain some of his behaviour. He simply cannot - or dare not - admit something which would put his wife in the frame.
FWIW, this is where my thinking has gone. Hence, the 'check the official diaries' comment earlier.
I've just had a horrible vision of BoJo stifling tears and saying that he has been acting all along to protect his wife and that he personally had no involvement in any wrongdoing..
Why can't he just blame her? Gets the heatd off him, and she's not official any more than, say, a Speaker's wife is.
She goes to the press
Ye
Bo
You keep repeating this on here every few minutes but that doesn't make it any the more true.
No one else, literally no one else, thinks it was a smart move. The jibe lowered the tone still further and by linking Savile to the debate today, the impression people come away with is not what you think. It's of two disresputable people who got off without investigation.
And I'm sure you don't really mean to be saying that the BBC loved the Savile comment. I mean, apart from not knowing how to spell his name, do you not know anything about the background to Jimmy Savile and the BBC?
It scythed Starmer down. Starmer was poor today. Mrs May, and Tissue price were excellent.
I thought Johnson came out swinging, and whether you and I might be disappointed that he saved his bacon, he did, because there are still not 54 MPs who were concerned enough to put their letters to Brady
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
It was actually quite sunny in southern England today too in the day.
Temperature in Winnipeg at the moment however is -9 degrees Celsius.
In London it is 7 degrees celcius
Winterpeg, its denizens call it, is not really a great compare for London.
Winnipeg is closer to London in terms of distance from the equator than New York is
London is rather closer to this thing called the 'sea'. Which has a 'Gulf Stream' going up it and keeping the 'British [sic] Isles' warm.
Winnipeg, or indeed anywhere in the continental interior of North America, is ****ing cold in winter because the sea left the Great Plains not long after the dinosaurs did.
Johnson's performance in the House mirrors his private conversations with ministers and MPs. He may say he is sorry, but he doesn't mean it and he still refuses to tell the truth.
While in these times it can be easy to overlook that Boris is not without political skills which have helped him sustain and thrive across a long political career, one thing I don't think he has ever been any good at is the non-apology apology.
He has had some success with distraction and bluster in the past, but it is not working so well right now, and his attempts at non-apologies cannot carry him through convincingly. Hence upping the bluster quotient with pretty random counters.
Re: BJ tripping to Ukraine, yours truly is old enough to remember how Nixon went on a foreign trip to Egypt not long before he gave the Big Wave from the Rose Garden.
Yes after I'd mentioned Jim Callaghan in Guadeloupe someone mentioned Thatcher in Paris.
Both trips effectively saw the end of their premierships.
It' s a good feeling to have a decent leader of the opposition at last and improving with every outing. He looked dominating today in a way we haven't seen since Blair.
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Vancouver isn't cold. Nor is populated Canada darker. It's much further south than us. Most Canadians live south of Seattle. One of my favourite facts.
Winnipeg has over 600,000 people and is -6 Celsius today. Edmonton has over 1 million people and is -15 degrees Celsius today.
Parts of populated Canada certainly do get very cold in winter
Nevertheless you also said “dark”. Sunset in Winnipeg today will be, in local time, a whole half hour later than mine - and I have one of the longest winter daylight spans in the UK.
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
I don't like Johnson and I want him to go but one has to admire his comprehensive takedown of Starmer was superb. First the Saville put down which the BBC are loving.
I do wonder how many of the breaches of the rules - let alone the guidelines - were by Carrie and her friends.
I suspect
That may explain some of his behaviour. He simply cannot - or dare not - admit something which would put his wife in the frame.
FWIW, this is where my thinking has gone. Hence, the 'check the official diaries' comment earlier.
I've just had a horrible vision of BoJo stifling tears and saying that he has been acting all along to protect his wife and that he personally had no involvement in any wrongdoing..
Why can't he just blame her? Gets the heatd off him, and she's not official any more than, say, a Speaker's wife is.
She goes to the press
Ye
Bo
You keep repeating this on here every few minutes but that doesn't make it any the more true.
No one else, literally no one else, thinks it was a smart move. The jibe lowered the tone still further and by linking Savile to the debate today, the impression people come away with is not what you think. It's of two disresputable people who got off without investigation.
And I'm sure you don't really mean to be saying that the BBC loved the Savile comment. I mean, apart from not knowing how to spell his name, do you not know anything about the background to Jimmy Savile and the BBC?
It scythed Starmer down. Starmer was poor today. Mrs May, and Tissue price were excellent.
I thought Johnson came out swinging, and whether you and I might be disappointed that he saved his bacon, he did, because there are still not 54 MPs who were concerned enough to put their letters to Brady
It’s weird, because I thought the opposite.
I’m very Keir-sceptic, and I don’t think I’ve seen a decent performance from him at all before. Today he truly channeled the country’s anger.
Boris came out swinging, but only in the sense that a trapped rat does. He demeaned his office and insulted the House (and the public) today.
Labour must be reviewing whether now is the right time to table a parliamentary confidence vote. They need to judge whether the momentum will have been lost by the time the Met eventually decide to take no action.
How could the likes of Hon Mr Bell vote confidence in Johnson after today?
They will not vote for a GE
There's no need for a Parliamentary VONC. The letters to the 1922 committee procedure is purely an internal party matter.
It was suggested Labour call a confidence vote and some conservatives would vote with Labour.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
I don't like Johnson and I want him to go but one has to admire his comprehensive takedown of Starmer was superb. First the Saville put down which the BBC are loving.
I do wonder how many of the breaches of the rules - let alone the guidelines - were by Carrie and her friends.
I suspect
That may explain some of his behaviour. He simply cannot - or dare not - admit something which would put his wife in the frame.
FWIW, this is where my thinking has gone. Hence, the 'check the official diaries' comment earlier.
I've just had a horrible vision of BoJo stifling tears and saying that he has been acting all along to protect his wife and that he personally had no involvement in any wrongdoing..
Why can't he just blame her? Gets the heatd off him, and she's not official any more than, say, a Speaker's wife is.
She goes to the press
Ye
Bo
You keep repeating this on here every few minutes but that doesn't make it any the more true.
No one else, literally no one else, thinks it was a smart move. The jibe lowered the tone still further and by linking Savile to the debate today, the impression people come away with is not what you think. It's of two disresputable people who got off without investigation.
And I'm sure you don't really mean to be saying that the BBC loved the Savile comment. I mean, apart from not knowing how to spell his name, do you not know anything about the background to Jimmy Savile and the BBC?
It scythed Starmer down. Starmer was poor today. Mrs May, and Tissue price were excellent.
I thought Johnson came out swinging, and whether you and I might be disappointed that he saved his bacon, he did, because there are still not 54 MPs who were concerned enough to put their letters to Brady
You OK?
SKS was superb, and the 54 letters haven't not gone in yet
Not enough to topple Johnson before the next election. But enough to leave the stench of criminality around him for good.
Far too early to say that.
If the Met determine the PM broke the law (considering the flat is one investigated by them) then surely that is the end of Boris.
If the Met determine the law wasn't broken, then that should be the end of the matter too.
Either way, I don't see how this can drag on until the election.
That's a reframing in his favour that doesn't work. The bar is whether he lied to Parliament not whether he gets a fixed penalty notice. If he lied to Parliament he must go. Or to put it differently, if the evidence shows he lied to Parliament about these rule-breaking parties in the middle of a pandemic but he *still* won't resign, Tory MPs simply must remove him. And if they don't the public must punish them with a shellacking in the polls and a landslide loss of seats. If none of this happens we're fucked. It's Banana Republic and total loss of self-respect here we come.
Whether the law was broken, or whether the rules were broken, is the same thing.
Guidelines are not rules. They're guidelines. Laws are the rules.
This lies to Parliament thing is weird because if the threshold to say he lied has been met, the threshold he has to go for other reasons has also already been met. So yes if he's lied to Parliament he should go, but in this case it's an unnecessary and redundant condition.
No, if he lied it doesn't follow he'll get a penalty notice. Likewise if he doesn't get a penalty notice it doesn't follow he didn't lie.
He said he had no knowledge of rule-breaking events. Will the Gray Report (when we get the proper one) and/or the Met investigation show that to be a lie?
Let's see.
If the PM knew the law was being broken by either himself or his team and did nothing about it then he should resign. Whether he'd said to the House that the law wasn't being broken or not.
Lawmakers can not be lawbreakers.
Yep. And PMs cannot be liars to parliaments. Either should be enough to end him unless he and the Tory Party wish to take up residence in the gutter.
Indeed but you're trying to set up lying to Parliament as somehow a lower or easier bar to clear than proving knowledge of lawbreaking. It isn't.
If he knew about lawbreaking and did nothing he should resign. If he doesn't, he hasn't lied.
I find the latter implausible given the evidence we know about. But at the end of the day if its not shown he knew about lawbreaking, then its not shown he lied either.
The Lying To Parliament charge is not escaped by dint of the police deciding not to issue any tickets. That doesn't scan. But, yep, I agree it looks implausible he's clean on any metric.
If the Police can't substantiate that the law was broken, then how is it shown he knew the law was broken?
Surely the Police will have to issue fines as the evidence is there from everything that's been reported. If that reporting is wrong, which I can't see happening, then that would be an unexpected acquittal.
Lying to Parliament is absolutely a resigning offence, whether laws were broken or not. It is absolutely clear from the Ministerial Code that any minister who lies to Parliament is expected to resign.
“It is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity. Ministers who knowingly mislead Parliament will be expected to offer their resignation to the Prime Minister.”
Yes I 100% agree.
However my point is that what it's alleged he'd lied about would be a resigning offence even if he'd never lied about it. So the lie itself is both bad and moot he'd need to go even without the lie.
If he knew about lawbreaking in his office and did nothing about it then he'd have to resign, even if he'd never said he didn't know about the law breaking.
It's not like lawmakers being lawbreakers is perfectly fine so long as they don't deny lawbreaking.
This government proclaimed it is fine, as long as the law breaking was done in a limited and specific way.
Thing is we're all saying how amazing Aaron Bell is but was he not paying attention on PB. Plenty of people have been saying for ages on here how manifestly unfit Boris is for office.
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
It was actually quite sunny in southern England today too in the day.
Temperature in Winnipeg at the moment however is -9 degrees Celsius.
In London it is 7 degrees celcius
Winterpeg, its denizens call it, is not really a great compare for London.
Winnipeg is closer to London in terms of distance from the equator than New York is
London is rather closer to this thing called the 'sea'. Which has a 'Gulf Stream' going up it and keeping the 'British [sic] Isles' warm.
Winnipeg, or indeed anywhere in the continental interior of North America, is ****ing cold in winter because the sea left the Great Plains not long after the dinosaurs did.
Hopefully climate change will not damage the Gulf Stream otherwise we will get prairies Canadian winters
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Vancouver isn't cold. Nor is populated Canada darker. It's much further south than us. Most Canadians live south of Seattle. One of my favourite facts.
Winnipeg has over 600,000 people and is -6 Celsius today. Edmonton has over 1 million people and is -15 degrees Celsius today.
Parts of populated Canada certainly do get very cold in winter
Nevertheless you also said “dark”. Sunset in Winnipeg today will be, in local time, a whole half hour later than mine - and I have one of the longest winter daylight spans in the UK.
I remember a summer holiday staying in perhaps the UK's most northerly B&B on UNst on Shetland. The sheep were waking us up at some ridiculous time like 3 am when they woke. And bright sun for our after dinner walks high in the sky. But then I thought, what's this going to be like in winter ...?
Johnson's performance in the House mirrors his private conversations with ministers and MPs. He may say he is sorry, but he doesn't mean it and he still refuses to tell the truth.
While in these times it can be easy to overlook that Boris is not without political skills which have helped him sustain and thrive across a long political career, one thing I don't think he has ever been any good at is the non-apology apology.
He has had some success with distraction and bluster in the past, but it is not working so well right now, and his attempts at non-apologies cannot carry him through convincingly. Hence upping the bluster quotient with pretty random counters.
Agreed, he is better at attacking than defending, the closest he was to having to resign was when he did the apology interview. Since then he has come out fighting and claiming to anyone open to hearing it that this is a boring distraction that should be treated with contempt because Brexit & vaccines. Lots of low interest voters, who we rarely hear from on here, will be fine with that.
So he in fact flew in from Barbados. It was the height of the winter of discontent, with rubbish piled up everywhere and bodies lying unburied.
"As Callaghan emerged from his plane onto the tarmac on a dismal winter morn, a disenchanted hack shouted out to him, ‘What d’you think of the chaos, Jim’. Callaghan actually replied ‘I don’t think that other people in the world would share the view that there is mounting chaos’. That exchange, slightly misheard or misinterpreted, by the Sun, became their famous headline ‘Crisis, what crisis’.
It proved to be a phrase that hung round his neck for the rest of his political life – encapsulating the notion that Labour leaders had no idea what they were doing to the country, and ultimately led to his downfall."
Between Boris Johnson's performance today and that poll finding I have lost faith in my country.
Take my advice.
Emigrate.
Tempted to move to France, Canada, or Australia.
Well, you can knock Canada off the list - that's where the Hawaiian pizza was invented.
If you think our winters are cold and dark, try Canada's
Toronto has brighter winters than London.
I’m finding New York very cold but the sunshine is glorious; I much prefer it.
It was actually quite sunny in southern England today too in the day.
Temperature in Winnipeg at the moment however is -9 degrees Celsius.
In London it is 7 degrees celcius
Winterpeg, its denizens call it, is not really a great compare for London.
Winnipeg is closer to London in terms of distance from the equator than New York is
London is rather closer to this thing called the 'sea'. Which has a 'Gulf Stream' going up it and keeping the 'British [sic] Isles' warm.
Winnipeg, or indeed anywhere in the continental interior of North America, is ****ing cold in winter because the sea left the Great Plains not long after the dinosaurs did.
Hopefully climate change will not damage the Gulf Stream otherwise we will get prairies Canadian winters
Comments
However my point is that what it's alleged he'd lied about would be a resigning offence even if he'd never lied about it. So the lie itself is both bad and moot he'd need to go even without the lie.
If he knew about lawbreaking in his office and did nothing about it then he'd have to resign, even if he'd never said he didn't know about the law breaking.
It's not like lawmakers being lawbreakers is perfectly fine so long as they don't deny lawbreaking.
That is not the same as the 54 letters to the 1922
And they don't like being reminded of that. Well, at least the decent ones.
Under Boris post Brexit Britain also has agreed a defence alliance with Biden's US and Morrison's Australia to contain Xi's China
Stranger things have happened
Desperate times...
“When the army had elected Philip, who was Prætorian præfect to the third Gordian, the latter demanded that he might remain sole emperor; he was unable to obtain it. He requested that the power might be equally divided between them; the army would not listen to his speech. He consented to be degraded to the rank of Cæsar; the favor was refused him. He desired, at least, he might be appointed Prætorian præfect; his prayer was rejected. Finally, he pleaded for his life. The army, in these several judgments, exercised the supreme magistracy.
According to the historian, whose doubtful narrative the President De Montesquieu has adopted, Philip, who, during the whole transaction, had preserved a sullen silence, was inclined to spare the innocent life of his benefactor; till, recollecting that his innocence might excite a dangerous compassion in the Roman world, he commanded, without regard to his suppliant cries, that he should be seized, stripped, and led away to instant death. After a moment’s pause, the inhuman sentence was executed. "
Parts of populated Canada certainly do get very cold in winter
Especially when it's got nothing to do with Labour and everything to do with what Tory MPs want / think is best for them.
Perhaps inspecting some troops
I miss Scotland terribly as I haven’t been able to get up there for going on years now. I’m looking forward to the Scottish Tartan Parade here in NYC in April which will be hosted by Karen Gillan.
@TSE, I extend you a standing invitation.
Brandon Lewis on R4 PM thought the PM had equipped himself well. Sadly I have to agree. The punters will love the Big Dog Boris is so bone idle she will have probably had to bury them for him (allegedly)
I'm reminded of those MPs who were waiting for DUP approval before voting for or against a Brexit deal, in essence giving up their responsibility to make a decision by hinging their decision on another group.
Rhyl is in Vale of Clwyd and full of white working class Leavers, so no surprise
Some Tory MPs are not feeling favourable towards the PM this eve.
One senior Tory who is usually loyal described his Commons turn as "a total and utter train wreck" adding "the mood is utterly dire"
Another MP "He’s made us all look corrupt and made the country feel like fools"
Another senior party aide said No10 may have misjudged the tone: "Today was not a day to come out swinging"
***
The answer to that is, if you turn out to be, say, Fred West, things have moved on beyond the question of what's the best tone in which to discuss your activities
Or the indeed the idea of invading Russia!?
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1488219064422047753
A PPS stands down.
Has it only just dawned on @Tissue_Price.
More fool him if so and yes sorry because I realise he is s PB icon.
Prestwick Airport was specifically located in Ayrshire of course because it has little fog/mist/haar - important in the old days without blind landing aids and with urban smog inland. But I don't know how wide that meteorological phenomenon extends.
Your comment is distasteful
I shall be there.
My own weakness in life is redheads.
Meanwhile lick spittle Gove is quick out the traps to stand behind the PM.
No one else, literally no one else, thinks it was a smart move. The jibe lowered the tone still further and by linking Savile to the debate today, the impression people come away with is not what you think. It's of two disresputable people who got off without investigation.
And I'm sure you don't really mean to be saying that the BBC loved the Savile comment. I mean, apart from not knowing how to spell his name, do you not know anything about the background to Jimmy Savile and the BBC?
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1488219064422047753
Plus the latest Yougov had the Tories on 34% with working class C2DEs but only 31% with middle class ABC1s.
The Tories are also still on 58% with Leavers but just 13% with Remainers
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/01/28/voting-intention-con-32-lab-38-26-27-jan
Boris’s Savile jibe may be the thing that ends him.
It was breathtakingly dishonest. As I posted upthread, I was shaking in anger. And reports suggest a decent number (enough?) of Tory MPs were similarly disgusted.
It is crazy that an investigation depends on the person being investigated to be willing to release the details.
ITS NOT TRUE
I was there
Keir Starmer had nothing to do with the decisions taken
On the contrary, He supported me in bringing 100s of child sex abusers to justice
https://twitter.com/nazirafzal/status/1488181581353259025
Doesn’t alter the fact that Johnson is a disgrace.
You should be ashamed standing up for Boris, and passing your ill judged attacks on decent conservatives who recognise right from wrong
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/ian-blackford-hypocrisy-laid-bare-26099248
David Gauke
@DavidGauke
Conservative MPs now know that when the final Sue Gray report is published it will be damning. They don't need to wait any longer to act.
I thought Johnson came out swinging, and whether you and I might be disappointed that he saved his bacon, he did, because there are still not 54 MPs who were concerned enough to put their letters to Brady
Winnipeg, or indeed anywhere in the continental interior of North America, is ****ing cold in winter because the sea left the Great Plains not long after the dinosaurs did.
He has had some success with distraction and bluster in the past, but it is not working so well right now, and his attempts at non-apologies cannot carry him through convincingly. Hence upping the bluster quotient with pretty random counters.
Both trips effectively saw the end of their premierships.
I’m very Keir-sceptic, and I don’t think I’ve seen a decent performance from him at all before. Today he truly channeled the country’s anger.
Boris came out swinging, but only in the sense that a trapped rat does. He demeaned his office and insulted the House (and the public) today.
SKS was superb, and the 54 letters haven't not gone in yet
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1488222481215328258
Any party that makes the likes of Boris Johnson - or Donald Trump - its leader IS corrupt, by definition.
And any country that elects their like, such as the UK - or USA - and puts them into power is ipso facto a pack of fools.
EDIT - I point this out, mainly in derision of the "made us" in the chastened Tory MPs remark. Much like Joe Rogan "sorry if I pissed you off".
Or any alleged "apology" ever uttered (apparently) by Boris Johnson.
https://annaraccoon.com/2012/06/09/james-callaghan-pm-my-part-in-his-downfall/
So he in fact flew in from Barbados. It was the height of the winter of discontent, with rubbish piled up everywhere and bodies lying unburied.
"As Callaghan emerged from his plane onto the tarmac on a dismal winter morn, a disenchanted hack shouted out to him, ‘What d’you think of the chaos, Jim’. Callaghan actually replied ‘I don’t think that other people in the world would share the view that there is mounting chaos’. That exchange, slightly misheard or misinterpreted, by the Sun, became their famous headline ‘Crisis, what crisis’.
It proved to be a phrase that hung round his neck for the rest of his political life – encapsulating the notion that Labour leaders had no idea what they were doing to the country, and ultimately led to his downfall."