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Can anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 25 in General
imageCan anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

Above is a screenshot of this week’s PMQs and one thing stands out. On the government benches hardly any MP is wearing a mask while amongst opposition party MPs the vast majority are.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    edited September 25
    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,572
    2nd rate, like all my posts...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    They trust the efficacy of the vaccine.

    If I were somehow to find myself on the opposition benches I would not be wearing a mask.
  • Tories: Covid is over and Boris was brilliant.
    Oppo: Covid still ongoing and don't give Boris any premature credit.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,257
    edited September 25
    Many in Labour have clung onto the lost battles of the 70s even though changes in the decades since render some of the arguments then irrelevant. Can hardly expect them to catch up with the changed circumstances produced by mass vaccination this decade.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861
    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
  • They trust the efficacy of the vaccine.

    If I were somehow to find myself on the opposition benches I would not be wearing a mask.

    When I got my second jab I was advised to continue to adhere to the mask-wearing, hand-washing precautions.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    I suppose that straight after PMQs the Labour MPs headed to the bars and tearooms and dispensed with their masks while having a good natter. Sat face to face. 1m apart. It's all theatre.
  • timpletimple Posts: 83
    I think its well understood that the main reason to wear a mask is not to protect yourself - its to protect others so when you cough or sneeze you don't send a plume of virus into the vicinity. You may be asymptomatic - but for others it can kill them - truly a virus of our times.

    If you accept that the political divide is well understood.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861
    timple said:

    I think its well understood that the main reason to wear a mask is not to protect yourself - its to protect others so when you cough or sneeze you don't send a plume of virus into the vicinity. You may be asymptomatic - but for others it can kill them - truly a virus of our times.

    If you accept that the political divide is well understood.

    It's also well understood that vaccines are the way out of this.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,494
    Masks are far better at preventing transmission than catching it, so the ones broadly at risk are the mask wearers
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    When I am going around a public building like a court I am obliged to wear my mask. In court practice varies. The judge I had last week took the view that we were socially distanced in the court as we were more than 1m apart and did not require to wear them. A different Judge in Glasgow had the opposite view. We could of course take them off when speaking. The latter was my first real experience of wearing masks for hours at a time. It was deeply unpleasant. My lungs are still not 100% and I became increasingly breathless. Really didn't like it.

    Applying this experience to the House of Commons I do not understand why the Tories are not wearing masks. They are in a public building and not speaking unless they are asking a question. I think they should.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    Actually, I think it's politics. The senior leader who answered the question on the all staff call sounded sincere when he said something like "no, the vaccines don't make you safe from COVID."

    Now, we all understand that the vaccines are far from perfect. But we also know that this is as good as it gets. But for some people, they want to continue fighting the war.

    Interestingly, my place is asking people to take LFTs twice a week (I'm not), but they aren't insisting on people being vaccinated. I suspect there will be a few anti-vaxxers at my place.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,831
    Most people have stopped wearing masks in my area. Crowded trains are an exception.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,221
    Interestingly reflected in their voter demographic. I haven't actually seen anyone wearing a mask indoors in Staffordshire recently ( well, apart from one person who was wearing it but it didn't cover her nose). But in Bristol...

    Maybe it's just that there's more resistance to taking orders from the government the further north or more Tory you are?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,482
    No idea.
    But at least it hasn't widely reached the stage of screaming abuse at folk for making a personal choice.
    Let's be British and keep it that way, please.
  • Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,221
    Selebian said:

    I've no problem with the government side not masking up.

    The thing I have a bit of a problem with is that - arguably* - if they followed their official guidance, they would be masking up.

    *Guidance[1] states: "We expect and recommend that members of the public continue to wear face coverings in crowded and enclosed spaces where you come into contact with people you don’t normally meet. For example, on public transport."
    Now, that's aguable. Crowded? Yes, fairly. Enclosed? Yes. People you don't normally meet? Arguable - does the whole of the HoC count as people you normally meet as an MP?

    If mask wearing is to be encouraged, the government should set an example. If it is not, then they should make the guidance a bit clearer. If it only really applies to public transport (i.e. very enclosed, mostly complete strangers) then say so.

    [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

    Rather pointless advice unless enforced in school corridors (which it isn't).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,831
    Masks have become a political symbol. Lefty/liberals generally still wear them, others don't.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    It is the opposite at our place. Senior management have been cajoling people back in to the office and 'setting an example' by holding face to face senior leadership meetings. (I guess the potential for the whole top team to be struck down simultaneously didn't occur to them.)

    The majority seem to be rather reluctant to drag themselves back in. While for some this is due to Covid anxiety I think that for the majority they'd just prefer a lie in and save on the train fare.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,482
    Pulpstar said:

    Masks are far better at preventing transmission than catching it, so the ones broadly at risk are the mask wearers

    Hang on.
    That implies wearing a mask increases your chances of catching it? Or do I misunderstand?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861
    Pulpstar said:

    Masks are far better at preventing transmission than catching it, so the ones broadly at risk are the mask wearers

    Masks are now just a political divide within COVID theatre. Unless someone is wearing an FFP3 mask then it's all theatre. Everyone around is vaccinated now. If they aren't then it's a very, very high likelihood that they chose not to be. That's on them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,220
    dixiedean said:

    No idea.
    But at least it hasn't widely reached the stage of screaming abuse at folk for making a personal choice.
    Let's be British and keep it that way, please.

    It's already here. Apparently it's 'moronic' to wear a mask now.

    Needless to say, this unwanted advice has not changed my own view one bit. ;)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,482
    I've re-started wearing a mask as I have a bad cold. I thought, on balance, that was the decent thing to do.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,887
    I don’t wear a mask anywhere anymore
  • dixiedean said:

    No idea.
    But at least it hasn't widely reached the stage of screaming abuse at folk for making a personal choice.
    Let's be British and keep it that way, please.

    It's already here. Apparently it's 'moronic' to wear a mask now.

    Needless to say, this unwanted advice has not changed my own view one bit. ;)
    I've been called "hysterical" by @Anabobazina on this very forum for my views on the need to keep wearing masks. If thats hysterical for the pray the pox away brigade, I can cope.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    ydoethur said:

    Interestingly reflected in their voter demographic. I haven't actually seen anyone wearing a mask indoors in Staffordshire recently ( well, apart from one person who was wearing it but it didn't cover her nose). But in Bristol...

    Maybe it's just that there's more resistance to taking orders from the government the further north or more Tory you are?

    It's difficult to work out the impact of politics on COVID because of the correlations (e.g. Labour areas are younger and more urban). Perhaps I'm biased, but I reckon Tory areas have been fairly sensible. Obeyed the restrictions pre-vaccines and are now back to normal post-vaccines.

    The good news is, politics seems to have made little difference to vaccination rates in this country.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Masks are far better at preventing transmission than catching it, so the ones broadly at risk are the mask wearers

    Hang on.
    That implies wearing a mask increases your chances of catching it? Or do I misunderstand?
    Depends on the mask, most of them are crap. Cotton ones especially so as their particulate filtering is poor and when they catch condensation it becomes a COVID breeding ground.

    If you want a mask that works then invest in FFP3 ones, otherwise it's probably not worth bothering.
  • MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    ydoethur said:

    Selebian said:

    I've no problem with the government side not masking up.

    The thing I have a bit of a problem with is that - arguably* - if they followed their official guidance, they would be masking up.

    *Guidance[1] states: "We expect and recommend that members of the public continue to wear face coverings in crowded and enclosed spaces where you come into contact with people you don’t normally meet. For example, on public transport."
    Now, that's aguable. Crowded? Yes, fairly. Enclosed? Yes. People you don't normally meet? Arguable - does the whole of the HoC count as people you normally meet as an MP?

    If mask wearing is to be encouraged, the government should set an example. If it is not, then they should make the guidance a bit clearer. If it only really applies to public transport (i.e. very enclosed, mostly complete strangers) then say so.

    [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

    Rather pointless advice unless enforced in school corridors (which it isn't).
    And bars, clubs, restaurants, cafes, etc.

    Where people tend to do a lot more talking than on a commuter train.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    F1: weird stat: Russell has outqualified Hamilton twice in the last three races.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Andy_JS said:

    Most people have stopped wearing masks in my area. Crowded trains are an exception.

    In the shopping centre in Dundee this morning almost everyone had a mask on. When they went out into the High Street they took it off but most put it back on when they went into a shop. I think that's what the law requires in Scotland although I am not completely sure. We had a diet at which someone was supposed to be pleading a guilty. He failed to appear because his partner had had a positive test and he was isolating (allegedly). He had had a negative test so I don't think that was right and sought a warrant but the Judge considered that to be a reasonable excuse.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,220

    dixiedean said:

    No idea.
    But at least it hasn't widely reached the stage of screaming abuse at folk for making a personal choice.
    Let's be British and keep it that way, please.

    It's already here. Apparently it's 'moronic' to wear a mask now.

    Needless to say, this unwanted advice has not changed my own view one bit. ;)
    I've been called "hysterical" by @Anabobazina on this very forum for my views on the need to keep wearing masks. If thats hysterical for the pray the pox away brigade, I can cope.
    I'm unsure it's a good idea to wear a mask continuously. However, judging your own risks, and of those around you, and deciding to wear them when you think appropriate is fine IMO. Hence I don't wear them when out and about running, but I do if I nip into the local shop.
  • Currently at the Trafford Centre (on phone while wire shops at Claire's lol) and there's next to nobody wearing a mask. Really, really good to see.

    If anyone still wants to wear a mask they're free to do so. But for everyone else the only message we should have is to be vaccinated.

    Trust in the vaccine. Masks are for the past.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    It is the opposite at our place. Senior management have been cajoling people back in to the office and 'setting an example' by holding face to face senior leadership meetings. (I guess the potential for the whole top team to be struck down simultaneously didn't occur to them.)

    The majority seem to be rather reluctant to drag themselves back in. While for some this is due to Covid anxiety I think that for the majority they'd just prefer a lie in and save on the train fare.
    Interestingly, I'm in the opposite position. Our office is still every other desk out of action. My work wants us in, but doesn't want anyone catching COVID. My view is that as long as restrictions are in place, I won't be going in much at all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280

    Currently at the Trafford Centre (on phone while wire shops at Claire's lol) and there's next to nobody wearing a mask. Really, really good to see.

    If anyone still wants to wear a mask they're free to do so. But for everyone else the only message we should have is to be vaccinated.

    Trust in the vaccine. Masks are for the past.

    Keep an eye out for the penalty kick from Fernandes. The ball must be about there somewhere.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,909
    Masks are personal choice, but I've never been an enthusiast for track and trace. It depends for its effectiveness on people wanting to test positive.

    I went for my pre-holiday PCR test yesterday. A very nice lady tickled the back of my tongue with the probe and I was done. Obviously I turned out to be negative to my no great surprise. I'm happy with that but my scientific hackles rose. The result is only as good as the sample and we could have missed out the middle man - the test itself.
  • dixiedean said:

    No idea.
    But at least it hasn't widely reached the stage of screaming abuse at folk for making a personal choice.
    Let's be British and keep it that way, please.

    It's already here. Apparently it's 'moronic' to wear a mask now.

    Needless to say, this unwanted advice has not changed my own view one bit. ;)
    I've been called "hysterical" by @Anabobazina on this very forum for my views on the need to keep wearing masks. If thats hysterical for the pray the pox away brigade, I can cope.
    I'm unsure it's a good idea to wear a mask continuously. However, judging your own risks, and of those around you, and deciding to wear them when you think appropriate is fine IMO. Hence I don't wear them when out and about running, but I do if I nip into the local shop.
    Same. Its the law to wear them in shops so everyone does. Take it off outside. People still give each other distance. Its respect for other people...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292
    MaxPB said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Masks are far better at preventing transmission than catching it, so the ones broadly at risk are the mask wearers

    Hang on.
    That implies wearing a mask increases your chances of catching it? Or do I misunderstand?
    Depends on the mask, most of them are crap. Cotton ones especially so as their particulate filtering is poor and when they catch condensation it becomes a COVID breeding ground.

    If you want a mask that works then invest in FFP3 ones, otherwise it's probably not worth bothering.
    Are you implying that viruses will multiply on the mask itself? Because I have strong doubts about that.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    MaxPB said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Masks are far better at preventing transmission than catching it, so the ones broadly at risk are the mask wearers

    Hang on.
    That implies wearing a mask increases your chances of catching it? Or do I misunderstand?
    Depends on the mask, most of them are crap. Cotton ones especially so as their particulate filtering is poor and when they catch condensation it becomes a COVID breeding ground.

    If you want a mask that works then invest in FFP3 ones, otherwise it's probably not worth bothering.
    The only time I wore an FFP3 was to attend the vaccination centre to get my first jab. The riskiest environment I put myself in all pandemic so I wanted to be as protected as possible. Not a pleasant bit of kit to have to wear. Twenty minutes was plenty.

    For the second dose I turned up in an N95.

    Once fully jabbed I switched to a scarf when it was still compulsory.

    Now, generally nowt.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    During all the vaccine passport nonsense, I actually thought "if we're going down this road, why not just round up the refuseniks and force them to have it?" It's no less an infringement on civil liberties than forcing people to show their vaccination status.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,534
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    "Lifting restrictions when the Johnson Variant is clearly out of control risks a summer of chaos"
  • isamisam Posts: 38,534
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    My Dad has his third one yesterday!
  • Where's Leon? Wasn't he was always advocating that mask wearing should become a permanent social convention?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,378
    It mirrors exactly the weirdness of mask wearing, or not, in all other situations. It arises out of the uncertainty of what is the conforming thing to do, and is part of how opening up (personal discretion) is much harder than locking down (compulsion).

    This will be with us until a new set of customs is established. Nearly everyone wants to be governed by what other people do. Most are uncomfortable when this is unclear.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,869
    Andy_JS said:

    Masks have become a political symbol. Lefty/liberals generally still wear them, others don't.

    Not sure whether I count as lefty,* but I self identify as liberal and I haven't worn a mask (other than when required to do so at work, on TfL services and at the dentist where I was asked to do so - not actually while having my teeth examined, obviously!) for quite some time. I probably have worn one voluntarily since the law changed, but only because it was somewhere everyone else seemed to be doing it. Those places have pretty much disappeared now.

    *I fear I'm very likely a centrist dad, but my children are too young at present to mock me for it
  • timpletimple Posts: 83
    MaxPB said:

    timple said:

    I think its well understood that the main reason to wear a mask is not to protect yourself - its to protect others so when you cough or sneeze you don't send a plume of virus into the vicinity. You may be asymptomatic - but for others it can kill them - truly a virus of our times.

    If you accept that the political divide is well understood.

    It's also well understood that vaccines are the way out of this.
    One (powerful) tool amongst many. But not the only tool.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    Then we will have to accept the long term underling load on the NHS. On us being red listed by countries we want to travel to. On not getting clear of this when others do.

    We could have got more people jabbed. Our neighbours managed it. Then again their leadership told people get the jab or else. Here Beaker told people it was over before it was, and so we're stuck with 30-40k new cases a day.

    Ironically the one card he had left was to quote Kermit the Frog at the UN vaccine passports. I'm against these in principle, but they would have been effective in getting younger jab avoiders to get one.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292

    Tories: Covid is over and Boris was brilliant.
    Oppo: Covid still ongoing and don't give Boris any premature credit.

    Me: Covid is in the grey area between over and ongoing, and Boris got some things right and some things wrong.
    Maybe I should be Speaker.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    It is the opposite at our place. Senior management have been cajoling people back in to the office and 'setting an example' by holding face to face senior leadership meetings. (I guess the potential for the whole top team to be struck down simultaneously didn't occur to them.)

    The majority seem to be rather reluctant to drag themselves back in. While for some this is due to Covid anxiety I think that for the majority they'd just prefer a lie in and save on the train fare.
    Interestingly, I'm in the opposite position. Our office is still every other desk out of action. My work wants us in, but doesn't want anyone catching COVID. My view is that as long as restrictions are in place, I won't be going in much at all.
    We did have a set up with only around a third of desks available. That has now been scrapped, along with one way systems, etc and all desks are available. They aren't all needed, but they are available.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Farooq said:

    Tories: Covid is over and Boris was brilliant.
    Oppo: Covid still ongoing and don't give Boris any premature credit.

    Me: Covid is in the grey area between over and ongoing, and Boris got some things right and some things wrong.
    Maybe I should be Speaker.
    More like SKS who used to be indecisive but is now not so sure.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    Tories: Covid is over and Boris was brilliant.
    Oppo: Covid still ongoing and don't give Boris any premature credit.

    Me: Covid is in the grey area between over and ongoing, and Boris got some things right and some things wrong.
    Maybe I should be Speaker.
    More like SKS who used to be indecisive but is now not so sure.
    I started to write a reply agreeing with you, but thought better of it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861
    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,869
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    "Lifting restrictions when the Johnson Variant is clearly out of control risks a summer of chaos"
    You keep repeating that and, yes, I know it's Autumn now, not summer...
    But, the last few days of news over the Labour leadership rule changes do look a bit chaotic and I see no sign that Starmer has control over the Johnson variant of the Conservative party.
    So overall, I'd say give the man a break, he was right :wink:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    Depends where you are. If you're on the tube in London, most (maybe 70%) will be wearing masks. If you go to a pub or restaurant, then you won't see many masks.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861
    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    Yes, masks are pretty much done in London. I'd guess at about 30% of people wearing them indoors in supermarkets. Maybe a bit more on the tube. In pubs or any social venues it's zero.
  • Talking of masks or not

    Maskless Angela hugs maskless Keir on stage just now

    I am fine with it but sure some will moan
  • isamisam Posts: 38,534
    Germany

    “Manufacturers have faced unprecedented struggles with shortages of raw materials and other supply-chain bottlenecks. Rising infections pose an additional threat, even though government officials are trying to steer clear of another lockdown.

    “Supply-chain frictions have become a bigger threat to the economy than Covid,” said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING. “It currently looks as if these problems could easily last until the end of the year, potentially putting a cap on growth.”


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-25/german-business-confidence-slips-amid-persistent-supply-squeeze

    America

    “ As the US economy increasingly reopens, it is seeing shortages of all sorts of items.
    If you've tried to buy (or rent) a car or eat some chicken wings, you've probably noticed.
    Insider rounded up some of the major supply shortages and why they're lagging”

    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-supply-shortages-economy-inventory-chips-lumber-cars-toilet-paper-2021-5


  • TresTres Posts: 595
    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    People are merely following the cabinet's example.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    Nothing stopping you from wearing an FFP3 or N95 if you wish to. Personally, I don't feel a need to. However, when I visit Wales next week I will be complying with the stricter rules that are in place there, similar to Scotland.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    Then we will have to accept the long term underling load on the NHS. On us being red listed by countries we want to travel to. On not getting clear of this when others do.

    We could have got more people jabbed. Our neighbours managed it. Then again their leadership told people get the jab or else. Here Beaker told people it was over before it was, and so we're stuck with 30-40k new cases a day.

    Ironically the one card he had left was to quote Kermit the Frog at the UN vaccine passports. I'm against these in principle, but they would have been effective in getting younger jab avoiders to get one.
    Honestly, you're living in a complete dreamworld. None of the stuff you say is happening. Who cares if there's 30-40k cases per day? You've got yourself into a position where you're so far gone with opposing the government that you instinctively disagree with everything even when they're right. On going back to the old normal they are absolutely right. You want the delta cases now when there is high latent immunity and no NHS crisis, not in November and December with lower immunity and the annual NHS crisis.

    Lots of the experts said as much when they supported the July 19th final restrictions being lifted.

    Where we're at is unvaccinated people getting sick with COVID. That's a choice they made. The sooner all of those people are through the funnel the better.
  • isam said:

    Germany

    “Manufacturers have faced unprecedented struggles with shortages of raw materials and other supply-chain bottlenecks. Rising infections pose an additional threat, even though government officials are trying to steer clear of another lockdown.

    “Supply-chain frictions have become a bigger threat to the economy than Covid,” said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING. “It currently looks as if these problems could easily last until the end of the year, potentially putting a cap on growth.”


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-25/german-business-confidence-slips-amid-persistent-supply-squeeze

    America

    “ As the US economy increasingly reopens, it is seeing shortages of all sorts of items.
    If you've tried to buy (or rent) a car or eat some chicken wings, you've probably noticed.
    Insider rounded up some of the major supply shortages and why they're lagging”

    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-supply-shortages-economy-inventory-chips-lumber-cars-toilet-paper-2021-5


    Yep. The raw materials crunch is real and in a global economy its everywhere.

    I assume you are trying to suggest "so Britain is no different"? Nope - we are getting those shortages worse, and getting other shortages that other people have avoided. And are paying more for the stuff we can get in.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,716
    Left-wingers are neurotic, more socially averse, more sceptical of scientific progress, much more risk-averse, and tend instinctively to support massive state interventions in people's ordinary lives. Right-wingers have more "median" preferences on those topics mostly plus a few who think Covid is a bad flu.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,887
    Lots of petrol stations out of fuel in Northumberland it seems
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    isam said:

    Germany

    “Manufacturers have faced unprecedented struggles with shortages of raw materials and other supply-chain bottlenecks. Rising infections pose an additional threat, even though government officials are trying to steer clear of another lockdown.

    “Supply-chain frictions have become a bigger threat to the economy than Covid,” said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING. “It currently looks as if these problems could easily last until the end of the year, potentially putting a cap on growth.”


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-25/german-business-confidence-slips-amid-persistent-supply-squeeze

    America

    “ As the US economy increasingly reopens, it is seeing shortages of all sorts of items.
    If you've tried to buy (or rent) a car or eat some chicken wings, you've probably noticed.
    Insider rounded up some of the major supply shortages and why they're lagging”

    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-supply-shortages-economy-inventory-chips-lumber-cars-toilet-paper-2021-5


    Given the disruptions to the manufacturing process and given the modern obsession with just in time neither of these are particularly surprising. I am pretty sure every advanced country will be suffering similarly. It's only here we have to pretend that it has something to do with Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    People are merely following the cabinet's example.
    What a deeply weird thing to do. A stranger collection of obsessives, maniacs and out and out nutters would be hard to collate.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292
    EPG said:

    Left-wingers are neurotic, more socially averse, more sceptical of scientific progress, much more risk-averse, and tend instinctively to support massive state interventions in people's ordinary lives. Right-wingers have more "median" preferences on those topics mostly plus a few who think Covid is a bad flu.

    If you have median preferences, that makes you a centrist, surely?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,534
    Selebian said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    "Lifting restrictions when the Johnson Variant is clearly out of control risks a summer of chaos"
    You keep repeating that and, yes, I know it's Autumn now, not summer...
    But, the last few days of news over the Labour leadership rule changes do look a bit chaotic and I see no sign that Starmer has control over the Johnson variant of the Conservative party.
    So overall, I'd say give the man a break, he was right :wink:
    Sir Keir's fans think his ruse to stop left wingers getting near the Labour leadership makes him as cunning as a fox who’s just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University!

    Will those who say they're going to vote Green next time be tempted back by it?!

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347

    Talking of masks or not

    Maskless Angela hugs maskless Keir on stage just now

    I am fine with it but sure some will moan

    Hugging is safer than standing face to face chatting. All of your exhaled breath goes over the shoulder of the other person out of harms way.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,534
    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,534

    isam said:

    Germany

    “Manufacturers have faced unprecedented struggles with shortages of raw materials and other supply-chain bottlenecks. Rising infections pose an additional threat, even though government officials are trying to steer clear of another lockdown.

    “Supply-chain frictions have become a bigger threat to the economy than Covid,” said Carsten Brzeski, an economist at ING. “It currently looks as if these problems could easily last until the end of the year, potentially putting a cap on growth.”


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-25/german-business-confidence-slips-amid-persistent-supply-squeeze

    America

    “ As the US economy increasingly reopens, it is seeing shortages of all sorts of items.
    If you've tried to buy (or rent) a car or eat some chicken wings, you've probably noticed.
    Insider rounded up some of the major supply shortages and why they're lagging”

    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-supply-shortages-economy-inventory-chips-lumber-cars-toilet-paper-2021-5


    Yep. The raw materials crunch is real and in a global economy its everywhere.

    I assume you are trying to suggest "so Britain is no different"? Nope - we are getting those shortages worse, and getting other shortages that other people have avoided. And are paying more for the stuff we can get in.
    "Gas

    Industry experts say drivers will face fuel shortages this summer.

    Demand for fuel and interest in travel has risen as vaccination rates have increased. Lower gasoline-production rates have also made the commodity more valuable, as OPEC has been slow to curb production cuts.

    Truckers and rideshare drivers

    In September, Insider's Rachel Premack reported that pay for truck drivers was on the rise, coming in at "record-smashing levels." But the pay hike — and increased demand — comes after an exodus of drivers in 2019; Premack reported at the time on what some called a "trucking bloodbath," as trucking companies saw profits fall, with some even going bankrupt.

    Now demand is surging, according to the Journal, and if everything continues as is, that gap could deepen.

    Demand is surging for rideshares, too, but the drivers are not matching it. In March, Uber saw its highest-ever number of bookings. The company even said drivers in some cities were making over $40 an hour. Even so, current and former drivers outlined some of their concerns with returning to Insider's Tyler Sonnemaker. Chief among them were pandemic safety concerns and holding out for better offers.

    In fact, Insider's Tom Dotan reported, more than half of Uber and Lyft drivers have stopped, well, driving. Both platforms have offered incentives to lure drivers back, and Uber has said it'll pour $250 million into getting those drivers back out, Sonnemaker reported, "effectively bribing drivers to get back on the platform."





    I blame Brexit.

    Or Trump
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,347
    DavidL said:

    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    People are merely following the cabinet's example.
    What a deeply weird thing to do. A stranger collection of obsessives, maniacs and out and out nutters would be hard to collate.
    You've never attended a CLP meeting, have you?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    I don't think those precautions would make much difference to be honest. If one you has it, you'll likely pass it on to the other.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 3,716
    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Left-wingers are neurotic, more socially averse, more sceptical of scientific progress, much more risk-averse, and tend instinctively to support massive state interventions in people's ordinary lives. Right-wingers have more "median" preferences on those topics mostly plus a few who think Covid is a bad flu.

    If you have median preferences, that makes you a centrist, surely?
    One of the parties in question has 200 MPs. The other has almost 400. So the centre of British politics is somewhere in the Tory region.
  • A voluntary organisation to which I belong holds meetings in a local hall. The autumn lecture programme includes a requirement to wear masks, to which my response is: if it's that bloody dangerous I'd rather stay at home.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    You may not want to catch it, no one really does but with the way delta spreads it's going to find you. The best case scenario is that you get it just a couple of weeks after your booster shot and it's an asymptomatic infection or you already had it asymptomatically.

    Delaying catching it just means waiting until you've got lower immunity from your vaccines and higher likelihood of getting it symptomatically.

    I know it seems really counter-intuitive to want to catch a potentially deadly disease, for a lot of people getting it now is definitely the better option.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,887
    EPG said:

    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Left-wingers are neurotic, more socially averse, more sceptical of scientific progress, much more risk-averse, and tend instinctively to support massive state interventions in people's ordinary lives. Right-wingers have more "median" preferences on those topics mostly plus a few who think Covid is a bad flu.

    If you have median preferences, that makes you a centrist, surely?
    One of the parties in question has 200 MPs. The other has almost 400. So the centre of British politics is somewhere in the Tory region.
    Aye but the Government is heavily influenced by Jeremy Corbyn.

    Your “all left-wingers are neurotic” patter is cringe worthy.

    Almost as bad as “all tories are evil”
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,220
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    Then we will have to accept the long term underling load on the NHS. On us being red listed by countries we want to travel to. On not getting clear of this when others do.

    We could have got more people jabbed. Our neighbours managed it. Then again their leadership told people get the jab or else. Here Beaker told people it was over before it was, and so we're stuck with 30-40k new cases a day.

    Ironically the one card he had left was to quote Kermit the Frog at the UN vaccine passports. I'm against these in principle, but they would have been effective in getting younger jab avoiders to get one.
    Honestly, you're living in a complete dreamworld. None of the stuff you say is happening. Who cares if there's 30-40k cases per day? You've got yourself into a position where you're so far gone with opposing the government that you instinctively disagree with everything even when they're right. On going back to the old normal they are absolutely right. You want the delta cases now when there is high latent immunity and no NHS crisis, not in November and December with lower immunity and the annual NHS crisis.

    Lots of the experts said as much when they supported the July 19th final restrictions being lifted.

    Where we're at is unvaccinated people getting sick with COVID. That's a choice they made. The sooner all of those people are through the funnel the better.
    With hindsight, I think the government got the delay to the 21st June reopening, and then the reopening on 19th July, correct. Probably not perfect, but correct enough. Certainly the prophecies of doom about reopening don't appear to have come to pass.

    However: I wish people wouldn't be so blase about only the unvaccinated becoming sick. As far as I'm aware that isn't true, and we still have lots of people dying daily. We couldn't continue with the restrictions, but neither are we out of the woods yet.
  • pingping Posts: 1,419
    edited September 25
    It’s possible that this post pandemic boom/shortage/inflation situation is exactly the kick that the western economies needed to get us out of the post-gfc/zirp/asset bubble mess we were in.

    I wonder how it will be seen by future economists. Was the pandemic the turning point?

    On balance, I’m more worried than optimistic. But a decent case can be made that we’re on the path to a new, better normal.

    Let’s hope so.

    I’d love for in a couple of years time, to have full employment, decent wage growth, interest rates at 4% and inflation at 2%.

    I might even vote be tempted to vote Tory….
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292
    EPG said:

    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Left-wingers are neurotic, more socially averse, more sceptical of scientific progress, much more risk-averse, and tend instinctively to support massive state interventions in people's ordinary lives. Right-wingers have more "median" preferences on those topics mostly plus a few who think Covid is a bad flu.

    If you have median preferences, that makes you a centrist, surely?
    One of the parties in question has 200 MPs. The other has almost 400. So the centre of British politics is somewhere in the Tory region.
    So the median party membership card is blue.
    But people in the same party have different preferences.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    I don't think those precautions would make much difference to be honest. If one you has it, you'll likely pass it on to the other.
    That's the all-or-nothing myth. Catching Covid isn't like being pregnant. Viral load is an important factor. In a few cases it can make the difference between serious illness and mild.
    It still really is better to be wearing masks when you can, it can save someone's life.
    I was thinking more about the not wearing a mask when you're sitting down facing each other. What's the point of wearing a mask for the car ride?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,315
    edited September 25

    DavidL said:

    So you lot are telling me that when I come to Oxford, London, York and the Lake District for 10 days starting Friday many people are going to be wandering around inside without masks? I find that slightly concerning to be honest.

    Nothing stopping you from wearing an FFP3 or N95 if you wish to. Personally, I don't feel a need to. However, when I visit Wales next week I will be complying with the stricter rules that are in place there, similar to Scotland.
    In Wales I only wear my mask in shops and the doctors

    I was parked on Mostyn Street, Llandudno's main shopping street last Saturday and not a mask in sight

    Generally many seem to have stopped wearing them even in Asda wherever I visit
  • MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    It is the opposite at our place. Senior management have been cajoling people back in to the office and 'setting an example' by holding face to face senior leadership meetings. (I guess the potential for the whole top team to be struck down simultaneously didn't occur to them.)

    The majority seem to be rather reluctant to drag themselves back in. While for some this is due to Covid anxiety I think that for the majority they'd just prefer a lie in and save on the train fare.
    Would anybody notice if all the senior management were struck down? Other than taking the opportunity to get useful stuff done while they’re away?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 891
    EPG said:

    Farooq said:

    EPG said:

    Left-wingers are neurotic, more socially averse, more sceptical of scientific progress, much more risk-averse, and tend instinctively to support massive state interventions in people's ordinary lives. Right-wingers have more "median" preferences on those topics mostly plus a few who think Covid is a bad flu.

    If you have median preferences, that makes you a centrist, surely?
    One of the parties in question has 200 MPs. The other has almost 400. So the centre of British politics is somewhere in the Tory region.
    Not if you go by votes, instead of by the results of a rigged voting system.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,817

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    Or vice versa...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292
    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    I don't think those precautions would make much difference to be honest. If one you has it, you'll likely pass it on to the other.
    That's the all-or-nothing myth. Catching Covid isn't like being pregnant. Viral load is an important factor. In a few cases it can make the difference between serious illness and mild.
    It still really is better to be wearing masks when you can, it can save someone's life.
    I was thinking more about the not wearing a mask when you're sitting down facing each other. What's the point of wearing a mask for the car ride?
    Enclosed space, lots of recycling going on. The more virus you breathe in, the more likely you are to get seriously ill.
  • MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    It is the opposite at our place. Senior management have been cajoling people back in to the office and 'setting an example' by holding face to face senior leadership meetings. (I guess the potential for the whole top team to be struck down simultaneously didn't occur to them.)

    The majority seem to be rather reluctant to drag themselves back in. While for some this is due to Covid anxiety I think that for the majority they'd just prefer a lie in and save on the train fare.
    Would anybody notice if all the senior management were struck down? Other than taking the opportunity to get useful stuff done while they’re away?
    Working for a startup in the dotcom boom, our SMT took a week at a conference centre for post-float planning. It was Wednesday before we noticed they were missing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    I don't think those precautions would make much difference to be honest. If one you has it, you'll likely pass it on to the other.
    That's the all-or-nothing myth. Catching Covid isn't like being pregnant. Viral load is an important factor. In a few cases it can make the difference between serious illness and mild.
    It still really is better to be wearing masks when you can, it can save someone's life.
    I was thinking more about the not wearing a mask when you're sitting down facing each other. What's the point of wearing a mask for the car ride?
    Enclosed space, lots of recycling going on. The more virus you breathe in, the more likely you are to get seriously ill.
    Maybe, but if you're worried about it, why go in a car together?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    Then we will have to accept the long term underling load on the NHS. On us being red listed by countries we want to travel to. On not getting clear of this when others do.

    We could have got more people jabbed. Our neighbours managed it. Then again their leadership told people get the jab or else. Here Beaker told people it was over before it was, and so we're stuck with 30-40k new cases a day.

    Ironically the one card he had left was to quote Kermit the Frog at the UN vaccine passports. I'm against these in principle, but they would have been effective in getting younger jab avoiders to get one.
    Honestly, you're living in a complete dreamworld. None of the stuff you say is happening. Who cares if there's 30-40k cases per day? You've got yourself into a position where you're so far gone with opposing the government that you instinctively disagree with everything even when they're right. On going back to the old normal they are absolutely right. You want the delta cases now when there is high latent immunity and no NHS crisis, not in November and December with lower immunity and the annual NHS crisis.

    Lots of the experts said as much when they supported the July 19th final restrictions being lifted.

    Where we're at is unvaccinated people getting sick with COVID. That's a choice they made. The sooner all of those people are through the funnel the better.
    With hindsight, I think the government got the delay to the 21st June reopening, and then the reopening on 19th July, correct. Probably not perfect, but correct enough. Certainly the prophecies of doom about reopening don't appear to have come to pass.

    However: I wish people wouldn't be so blase about only the unvaccinated becoming sick. As far as I'm aware that isn't true, and we still have lots of people dying daily. We couldn't continue with the restrictions, but neither are we out of the woods yet.
    The problem I have with the idea of letting it rip [sic] further is the visible effect on the health services and their staff. What is happening sounds to me very like a NHS crisis right now - albeit as much chronic as acute.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,292
    edited September 25
    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    I don't think those precautions would make much difference to be honest. If one you has it, you'll likely pass it on to the other.
    That's the all-or-nothing myth. Catching Covid isn't like being pregnant. Viral load is an important factor. In a few cases it can make the difference between serious illness and mild.
    It still really is better to be wearing masks when you can, it can save someone's life.
    I was thinking more about the not wearing a mask when you're sitting down facing each other. What's the point of wearing a mask for the car ride?
    Enclosed space, lots of recycling going on. The more virus you breathe in, the more likely you are to get seriously ill.
    Maybe, but if you're worried about it, why go in a car together?
    Again with the all-or-nothing fallacy. Some people have a risk appetite that sits in that space between hermitage and orgy.
    People wear seatbelts to lower the chances of nasty outcomes, but still take the chance of getting in the car in the first place. This is similar, in some ways.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,861

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    Then we will have to accept the long term underling load on the NHS. On us being red listed by countries we want to travel to. On not getting clear of this when others do.

    We could have got more people jabbed. Our neighbours managed it. Then again their leadership told people get the jab or else. Here Beaker told people it was over before it was, and so we're stuck with 30-40k new cases a day.

    Ironically the one card he had left was to quote Kermit the Frog at the UN vaccine passports. I'm against these in principle, but they would have been effective in getting younger jab avoiders to get one.
    Honestly, you're living in a complete dreamworld. None of the stuff you say is happening. Who cares if there's 30-40k cases per day? You've got yourself into a position where you're so far gone with opposing the government that you instinctively disagree with everything even when they're right. On going back to the old normal they are absolutely right. You want the delta cases now when there is high latent immunity and no NHS crisis, not in November and December with lower immunity and the annual NHS crisis.

    Lots of the experts said as much when they supported the July 19th final restrictions being lifted.

    Where we're at is unvaccinated people getting sick with COVID. That's a choice they made. The sooner all of those people are through the funnel the better.
    With hindsight, I think the government got the delay to the 21st June reopening, and then the reopening on 19th July, correct. Probably not perfect, but correct enough. Certainly the prophecies of doom about reopening don't appear to have come to pass.

    However: I wish people wouldn't be so blase about only the unvaccinated becoming sick. As far as I'm aware that isn't true, and we still have lots of people dying daily. We couldn't continue with the restrictions, but neither are we out of the woods yet.
    The stats on deaths are pretty conclusive wrt vaccination.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons I think masks are a poor idea is because we probably want everyone to catch this ASAP before waning immunity catches up with us. Reducing transmission with delta is just delaying everyone catching it. With alpha we were in a position where we could prevent 80% of people getting COVID. With delta that number is basically zero. It's better for them to get it within the first 12 weeks after they are fully vaccinated or after their booster shot for older people.

    Personally if I were susceptible to getting COVID, I'd want it now, not in December months after my Pfizer immunity had waned and the NHS was going through its annual winter crisis.

    I am 60 and double jabbed and I don't want to catch covid. We took an aged auntie out for lunch who was 90, (auntie not the lunch), she has been double jabbed but nothing is 100% for either of us. I don't want to be responsible for infecting her so we wore masks in the car and whilst walking to the table in the restaurant. Obviously we took the masks off to eat, but we were a good metre apart. (We live in Wales btw). Everyone in the restaurant was obeying the rules.
    I don't think those precautions would make much difference to be honest. If one you has it, you'll likely pass it on to the other.
    That's the all-or-nothing myth. Catching Covid isn't like being pregnant. Viral load is an important factor. In a few cases it can make the difference between serious illness and mild.
    It still really is better to be wearing masks when you can, it can save someone's life.
    I was thinking more about the not wearing a mask when you're sitting down facing each other. What's the point of wearing a mask for the car ride?
    Enclosed space, lots of recycling going on. The more virus you breathe in, the more likely you are to get seriously ill.
    Maybe, but if you're worried about it, why go in a car together?
    Again with the all-or-nothing fallacy. Some people have a risk appetite that sits in that space between hermitage and orgy.
    People wear seatbelts to lower the chances of nasty outcomes, but still take the chance of getting in the car in the first place. This is similar, in some ways.
    I think vaccinations are much more similar to seatbelts.

    Personally I'm sceptical about how much difference masks make. If wearing masks makes people feel that bit safer, then that's absolutely fine. But I suspect they don't make much difference and you won't get me wearing one unless absolutely forced to (in a hospital, for example).
  • I listened to Angela Rayner's speech and it was like we were returning to an age gone by

    Her speech effectively was

    Conference - unions - social workers - sleeze tories - green deal - beer and sandwiches - zero hours contracts - hire and fire

    She spoke better than at PMQ's, played to the unions and the public sector, and was ok but not really any vision for the rest of us

    I just could not see her PM, while to be fair I could see Starmer
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,576
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. I suspect it's simply a case of Tories more likely to understand that this is done. What difference does make if you catch COVID at work or in the pub?

    It's the same at my work. On the one hand there are the nutters who ask the senior managements "what are you doing to make sue that I don't catch COVID?" And on the other hand there are the sensible people who say "vaccines work, get on with it." Interestingly, the senior management side with the nutters.

    Labour did well when the government wasn't locking down when they should have done. They've struggled to pivot to say that all these precautions are stupid and we need to get on with life.

    It's a liability thing. Senior management will always take the safest route. They don't want someone catching COVID on their watch. We've gone down the other path and insisted on people being fully vaccinated to come into the office or any work events. If they aren't and they catch it that's now on them.
    Here in the US, Uber requires all drivers to be vaccinated, to wear masks, and to submit regular test results. Passengers are also expected to be masked.

    I imagine it is for exactly that reason: one really infectious driver could hospitalize a lot of customers, and if Uber was seen to have skimped on precautions, they could be in really big trouble.
This discussion has been closed.