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Can anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,749
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    At least @TSE has a new example of chaos theory.

    Tanker driver fails to turn up in Kent, Britain runs dry of petrol.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    I think we both maybe just wait and see
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    "huge numbers who have already been fuelled"

    Certainly true re: PB
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    Says Mr 3 types of Balsamic...
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,257
    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,749

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    "huge numbers who have already been fuelled"

    Certainly true re: PB
    There’s always been plenty of gas on here.
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
  • RobD said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    Of course it does! In exactly the same way it looked terrible for the Blair Government in 2000.

    Whether it moves the polls is another matter. If it doesn't, Johnson is the second coming, and the Almighty is a Conservative.
    This is completely different to 2000. In 2000 the stations weren't able to be refuelled due to the blockades which led to thousands and eventually almost all (from memory) stations running out of fuel. Since they weren't able to be refuelled this dragged on for weeks.

    This is a couple of days of idiot-led hysteria but the fuel stations are already being refuelled. So this time next week there'll be people with egg on their face and full tanks. Not the same thing at all.

    Plus of course in 2000 high taxes the government had introduced was behind the protests and the protests (initially) had overwhelming support in polls because the public were annoyed at petrol prices themselves. And it highlighted just how much of the price was tax. Hysteria isn't taxed unfortunately.
    It is almost copybook. What was behind the 2000 protests were blockades of fuel depots by Bryndley Williams, who later became a Tory AM, and that idiot farmer from Monmouth and a bunch of hauliers backed by William Hague. And the tanker hauliers wouldn't scab their colleagues.

    We panicked, we ran the pumps dry and we ran out of fuel. The end result was the same.

    Sometimes you spend hours arguing black is white, and white is black.
    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.
    And we will panic buy again tomorrow when the stations have been refilled.

    If you think it won't have the same impact as 2000 that is entirely up to you. I would be surprised if it is laughed off as another comic Boris episode. You may be right of course, what do I know?
    How will the people who panic bought today panic buy again tomorrow?

    Their tanks will already be full. They can't be refilled a second time.
    At circa 800 miles a week I will be empty in 4 working days.

    There are also plenty of panic buyers yet to panic buy.

    You (as is @RobD) are arguing this is wholly different to 2000, when it is wholly similar. I have already conceded it might not damage Johnson in the same way it damaged Blair, although I would be shocked if it didn't
    If you're doing 800 miles a week then refilling is not panic buying, its just normal daily activity and won't be affecting variance from the baseline.

    That is not true but probably 99% of the people at the pumps today.

    Do you not accept the fact that pumps getting refuelled is happening now, which didn't happen in 2000? Don't you see that as a key difference?
    As I recall in 2000 the first direct action only lasted around a week. By the time all the empty stations get refilled, remember there are only a finite number of tankers and drivers to go around, even if people stop panic buying NOW there will be empty stations until at least Wednesday. It is wholly similar.

    Don't panic, maybe Johnson will have no adverse effect from this. It is nonetheless almost identical in its trajectory to last time.

    Anyway I'm bored now, so let's give this battle to you as a win. It bears no similarity to 2000. There! I've conceded.
    From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom

    On 08/09/00 the protests started.

    On 12/09/00 thousands of stations had ran out of fuel.
    On 13/09/00 only 5% of normal deliveries were able to be made.
    On 14/09/00 the protests began to end.
    On 16/09/00 supplies began to be restored.

    Not from Wiki but ...
    On 20/09/00 I took (and passed) my Driver's Test - I think I might have had 1 lesson between the 16th and the 20th (my instructor had cancelled all lessons during the crisis)
    On 24/09/00 I drove to University just before my Fresher's Week began

    Had supplies not been restored by the 20th my Test would have probably been cancelled, but they were restored already. Once supplies resumed, we were back to normal rapidly, despite the fact that we'd had weeks of no supply. Supplies have already resumed now, because they were never stopped in the first place, so this really is a flash in the pan.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196
    💥EXCL: Keir Starmer vows to end private schools’ charity status raising £1.7bn to help poorer kids in state system - top interview with our ⁦@MirrorGemma⁩ https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677
    Adam Peaty looked good on Strictly. Odudu and Whaite too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
    Yes, sounds plausible to me.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
    The number of stores "shut" was virtually 0 prior to the media creating a story where none existed.

    Even in normal circumstances sometimes sites can run out of fuel. Especially if people are looking to generate panic. In normal circumstances its a non-story and people move on to the next site, in this manic 24/7 news and Twitter world we live in now though people can create a story out of nothing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    She's caught up at the bar then!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    The amount consumed over the next week will drop markedly, because people will not undertake journey's if they fear they cannot top up.

    Probably be an uptick in rail travel next week.
  • darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    Says Mr 3 types of Balsamic...
    LOL!

    I'm never going to live that one down.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    Says Mr 3 types of Balsamic...
    LOL!

    I'm never going to live that one down.
    Rightly.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,644
    edited September 2021
    Very disappointed to have to report that local petrol stations round here are out of fuel.
  • Scott_xP said:

    💥EXCL: Keir Starmer vows to end private schools’ charity status raising £1.7bn to help poorer kids in state system - top interview with our ⁦@MirrorGemma⁩ https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816

    Red meat. Good.
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
    The number of stores "shut" was virtually 0 prior to the media creating a story where none existed.

    Even in normal circumstances sometimes sites can run out of fuel. Especially if people are looking to generate panic. In normal circumstances its a non-story and people move on to the next site, in this manic 24/7 news and Twitter world we live in now though people can create a story out of nothing.
    BP alone had 100 stores out of at least one fuel on Thursday before any panic buying. That is not near 0.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    If only she'd actually kiss a Tory......
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,236
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    💥EXCL: Keir Starmer vows to end private schools’ charity status raising £1.7bn to help poorer kids in state system - top interview with our ⁦@MirrorGemma⁩ https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816

    Back to the same old ideas...ban ZHC, destroy the private school sector for little gain, etc. Might as well just copy paste the old manifesto.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    She hasn't said that has she with the diverse cabinet they have
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    And that's just Larry the Cat!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196
    Can't believe this guy doesn't read PB...

    Brian Madison, Chairman of the Petrol Retailers’ Association tells Sky: “I think this situation is going to get worse before it gets better.”
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441744455464222724
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    If the problem was filling up cars you would be right. The problem is restocking petrol stations. We have a shortage of drivers who can do that. They couldnt cope with the load last week. Next weeks load is far bigger.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,236
    edited September 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598
    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    Says Mr 3 types of Balsamic...
    LOL!

    I'm never going to live that one down.
    Rightly.
    OK. To clarify, I only bought one of the bottles of Balsamic. From the airport shop in Pisa coming home from a work trip. It is Wor Lass who has felt the need to procure two further varieties.
  • Times has apparently overtaken the Guardian as most popular paper bought by the BBC
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    Pretty certain Raynor has always used language like that. Hence why I’m not sure being that adversarial is particularly helpful, particularly as she needs to win over some of those voters keeping the “scum” in Downing Street
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
    The number of stores "shut" was virtually 0 prior to the media creating a story where none existed.

    Even in normal circumstances sometimes sites can run out of fuel. Especially if people are looking to generate panic. In normal circumstances its a non-story and people move on to the next site, in this manic 24/7 news and Twitter world we live in now though people can create a story out of nothing.
    BP alone had 100 stores out of at least one fuel on Thursday before any panic buying. That is not near 0.
    Out of one type of fuel isn't shut. Besides how many are out of one type of fuel in normal circumstances?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196

    OK. To clarify, I only bought one of the bottles of Balsamic. From the airport shop in Pisa coming home from a work trip. It is Wor Lass who has felt the need to procure two further varieties.

    Aye, right...
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,644

    Times has apparently overtaken the Guardian as most popular paper bought by the BBC

    Doesn't surprise me. The Times has managed to retain its level of quality recently whereas almost all of the other papers have gone downhill.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,236
    edited September 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    Pretty certain Raynor has always used language like that. Hence why I’m not sure being that adversarial is particularly helpful, particularly as she needs to win over some of those voters keeping the “scum” in Downing Street
    They need to win people like me. Going all class warfare just turns me off, and I didn't go to private school, come from working class family.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    Scott_xP said:

    Stocky said:

    Well said. Flabbergasted by the Header. It is the Tories who are setting the example.

    Conservative Peter Bone is self-isolating having taken a test for COVID-19 and testing positive. The Wellingborough MP [Con], who is double-vaccinated, said it felt like “really nasty flu” and he had taken to his bed but hoped to be on the mend soon. https://twitter.com/tvnewswatch/status/1439957872373374979/photo/1
    Rachel Burden of 5 live went down with and was double vaccinated and said much the same

    And your point is ?
    Without the wonders of Boris' vaccination campaign, we might have been looking at a by-election.

    No?
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    I would expect the Speaker to intervene if she repeats it in the HOC

    What possessed her to think that is acceptable
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,236
    edited September 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Where have I made a sexist comment? Double checks post, still can't see anything remotely sexist....And I am not a Tory....

    Would you like to apologise for your frankly ridiculous comment. Have you been on the vino as well?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    What’s your point here? When things go wrong - you’ll blame brexit. Fine. Copying and pasting links Twitter comments doesn’t change the fact the argument is hopefully entrenched on both sides.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386
    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    I prefer the mountains to where I live, but Aberdeenshire has its rustic charms. Lots of hay bales around at the moment, and the majority not in black plastic. In my limited experience, down south they tend to mostly wrap them, making them looks like huge rubbish bags. It's a small point, but I like to see the straw colour. Cycling around the country lanes at this time of year is soothing for the soul.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Exhibit A - Covid vaccines.....
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    I suppose calling people scum is a sign of a good leader nowadays. Wonderful
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines, at least initially.
  • Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    By the author of Fake History !!!!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    I would expect the Speaker to intervene if she repeats it in the HOC

    What possessed her to think that is acceptable
    All the people she surrounds herself with......
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
    The number of stores "shut" was virtually 0 prior to the media creating a story where none existed.

    Even in normal circumstances sometimes sites can run out of fuel. Especially if people are looking to generate panic. In normal circumstances its a non-story and people move on to the next site, in this manic 24/7 news and Twitter world we live in now though people can create a story out of nothing.
    BP alone had 100 stores out of at least one fuel on Thursday before any panic buying. That is not near 0.
    Out of one type of fuel isn't shut. Besides how many are out of one type of fuel in normal circumstances?
    No idea, we shall see what happens. I predict things will get worse for about a week to ten days and will be worse than typical for a further couple of weeks.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 47,523
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    What’s your point here? When things go wrong - you’ll blame brexit. Fine. Copying and pasting links Twitter comments doesn’t change the fact the argument is hopefully entrenched on both sides.
    Hopelessly maybe??

    And by his own admission it is his lifetime mission
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Exhibit A - Covid vaccines.....
    I’m not advocating for either side, but you can see how brexiters could say vaccines. Or the end of freedom of movement would be seen to be a benefit for them as well.
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    What’s your point here? When things go wrong - you’ll blame brexit. Fine. Copying and pasting links Twitter comments doesn’t change the fact the argument is hopefully entrenched on both sides.
    Hopelessly maybe??

    And by his own admission it is his lifetime mission
    Ah yes - bit of a dodgy typo there..
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,644
    "Rachel Wearmouth
    @REWearmouth

    Woah! So Rayner does not hold back as she slates the “racist”, “homophobic” and “misogynistic” Tory “scum” in government who are operating a “banana republic” from Downing St.

    I wonder what she really thinks!
    9:13 PM · Sep 25, 2021·Twitter for iPhone"

    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1441858328468942851
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Exhibit A - Covid vaccines.....
    Now try B.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,749

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    Says Mr 3 types of Balsamic...
    LOL!

    I'm never going to live that one down.
    Rightly.
    OK. To clarify, I only bought one of the bottles of Balsamic. From the airport shop in Pisa coming home from a work trip. It is Wor Lass who has felt the need to procure two further varieties.
    Just as nobody is panic buying, they really needed to fill up the car today.

    (What’s annoying me is that that was true, for me, having just 25% of a tank left, but nobody will ever believe me.)
  • darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    The Heilan Coo's what?
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Exhibit A - Covid vaccines.....
    Now try B.
    Full employment.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    By the author of Fake History !!!!
    I hate to say this BigG. but your constant attacks on this particular fellow Tory poster are verging on bullying.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,598
    edited September 2021

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Exhibit A - Covid vaccines.....
    Now try B.
    Annoying the french with AUKUS

    (•I am joking)
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    Andy_JS said:

    "Rachel Wearmouth
    @REWearmouth

    Woah! So Rayner does not hold back as she slates the “racist”, “homophobic” and “misogynistic” Tory “scum” in government who are operating a “banana republic” from Downing St.

    I wonder what she really thinks!
    9:13 PM · Sep 25, 2021·Twitter for iPhone"

    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1441858328468942851

    What she really thinks is she has to get more press at Conference than Skyr.....

    And this is how you do it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115
    edited September 2021

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Yes its amusing that Rochdale has been moaning about the fact that a mask mandate isn't legally mandated - then he thinks him wearing a mask will get a reaction? What twisted projectionism.

    I couldn't care less what other people wear. Its a shame if people feel they need to wear a mask, and I think its silly - but its their choice and I'll respect that.

    People can wear a mask until they die decades from now for all I care. Some of Asian origin did pre-pandemic. Just don't expect others to do so.
    You've made it amply clear you don't give a toss about anyone.
    I do give a toss about people which is why I think the vulnerable who need protection should get the advice to wear a proper FFP3 mask that actually does the job instead of a cloth mask placebo.

    As for antivaxxers - they've made their choice. Its not my job to be masked up to protect others from their own decisions. Why should it be? 🤷‍♂️
    What is wrong with a placebo? I thought you were a libertarian?
    If you're deliberately giving people a placebo, when there's a working and approved alternative available, without informing them its a placebo - then unless they've knowingly subscribed to a trial knowing a placebo is an option then that's not good ethics.
    But nobody is deliberately giving anyone anything. It is personal choice.
    Except people are giving people the misunderstanding that cloth masks work well. Rather than educate that FFP3 masks are what work well to protect the wearer.
    Are they? And are people wearing masks to protect the wearer? That certainly isn't my motivation on the occasions I wear one. And from much of the testimony here quite a few others too.
    What about those Christian cross pendants? Or indeed any religious garb?
    Saying that we will wear masks to protect antivaxxers is completely wrongheaded, we should be telling the antivaxxers "get your f***ing vaccine or get Covid".
    But there you are again. It is absolutely none of your business what other people do with regard to masks, or why.
    Insulting folk who choose to wear a mask seems to be a remarkably common libertarian trait.
    I'm not insulting folk who choose to wear a mask. They could wear a clove of garlic for all I care.

    I'm insulting folk who think they can command others to wear a mask. Those nosy busybodies have it coming.
    OK. I'll let it go. Sometimes you are a poster who gets under my skin occasionally. I think it may be because I either find myself in either strong agreement or strong disagreement with you. Very rarely in between.
    However, I am irked by the long line up of rugged, freedom loving posters who won't be told what to do by anyone at all, but are driven to a fury by the mere sight of other people in masks.
    And who assert freedom of choice, but are damned certain only one particular choice (theirs) is the morally superior, righteous and correct one.
    Of course they caveat it, but it reeks of the very puritanism they purport to condemn.
    No one should have to explain why they do or don't wear a mask. No one should be pilloried for their decision. There is no right or wrong. It is personal decision which no one else can fully appreciate the calculations or emotions behind it.
    It is the very essence of intolerance.
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,300

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Sunday times is reporting that Essar and its refinery in Ellesmere Port is about to go bankrupt as it owes HMRC £220m
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    My problem with this sort of thing is I don't know that other than the die hards who will accept that on faith it works as a headline comment, without an explanation of why it is the case.

    I mean, people repeat the same quotes from Boris from sometimes quite long ago, but it is hard to argue that on a personal level he is racist given race appears not to factor into his appointments in any way, so it must be about racist policy, which even if true is a harder charge to make stick. For instance, is Downing Street motivated by racism, simply ignorant, or through lack of care enacting racist policies?

    Sure, conference week is going to be the time to break out the greatest hits (people love a good 'scum' line, though I suppose Tories are more likely to talk about Trots instead) and not engage in detail (if parties can avoid it) or nuanced attacks, but it takes a lot for a charge of racism and homophobia stick, and do we think more people will start to think that of Boris and No. 10 than already do, or is that feeling maxed out?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196
    One of Britain’s biggest oil refineries is teetering on the brink of collapse, piling further potential pressure on crisis-riven petrol stations.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7d386c68-1e05-11ec-9699-f7cb5224a0e1?shareToken=4948358e7348527731903f3dc67b88bd
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 47,523
    edited September 2021
    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Sunday times is reporting that Essar and its refinery in Ellesmere Port is about to go bankrupt as it owes HMRC £220m
    How do you go bust in that game?
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Yes its amusing that Rochdale has been moaning about the fact that a mask mandate isn't legally mandated - then he thinks him wearing a mask will get a reaction? What twisted projectionism.

    I couldn't care less what other people wear. Its a shame if people feel they need to wear a mask, and I think its silly - but its their choice and I'll respect that.

    People can wear a mask until they die decades from now for all I care. Some of Asian origin did pre-pandemic. Just don't expect others to do so.
    You've made it amply clear you don't give a toss about anyone.
    I do give a toss about people which is why I think the vulnerable who need protection should get the advice to wear a proper FFP3 mask that actually does the job instead of a cloth mask placebo.

    As for antivaxxers - they've made their choice. Its not my job to be masked up to protect others from their own decisions. Why should it be? 🤷‍♂️
    What is wrong with a placebo? I thought you were a libertarian?
    If you're deliberately giving people a placebo, when there's a working and approved alternative available, without informing them its a placebo - then unless they've knowingly subscribed to a trial knowing a placebo is an option then that's not good ethics.
    But nobody is deliberately giving anyone anything. It is personal choice.
    Except people are giving people the misunderstanding that cloth masks work well. Rather than educate that FFP3 masks are what work well to protect the wearer.
    Are they? And are people wearing masks to protect the wearer? That certainly isn't my motivation on the occasions I wear one. And from much of the testimony here quite a few others too.
    What about those Christian cross pendants? Or indeed any religious garb?
    Saying that we will wear masks to protect antivaxxers is completely wrongheaded, we should be telling the antivaxxers "get your f***ing vaccine or get Covid".
    But there you are again. It is absolutely none of your business what other people do with regard to masks, or why.
    Insulting folk who choose to wear a mask seems to be a remarkably common libertarian trait.
    I'm not insulting folk who choose to wear a mask. They could wear a clove of garlic for all I care.

    I'm insulting folk who think they can command others to wear a mask. Those nosy busybodies have it coming.
    OK. I'll let it go. Sometimes you are a poster who gets under my skin occasionally. I think it may be because I either find myself in either strong agreement or strong disagreement with you. Very rarely in between.
    However, I am irked by the long line up of rugged, freedom loving posters who won't be told what to do by anyone at all, but are driven to a fury by the mere sight of other people in masks.
    And who assert freedom of choice, but are damned certain only one particular choice (theirs) is the morally superior, righteous and correct one.
    Of course they caveat it, but it reeks of the very puritanism they purport to condemn.
    No one should have to explain why they do or don't wear a mask. No one should be pilloried for their decision. There is no right or wrong. It is personal decision which no one else can fully appreciate the calculations or emotions behind it.
    It is the very essence of intolerance.
    But I'm not irritated by others wearing masks. I'm content to let people decide for themselves.

    I can think its the right decision to take the mask off while respecting people's right to choose to keep it on.

    Libertarianism doesn't mean being devoid of opinions or thoughts on what is best. It is about letting everyone make their own thoughts, their own decisions and their own judgements.

    I think masks are a bad idea under the circumstances. I think taking drugs are a bad idea, I think smoking is a bad idea, I think voting Labour is a bad idea. I don't do any of them. But I think if someone else wants to wear a mask, if someone else wants to take drugs, or if someone else wants to smoke and even if someone wants to vote for Jeremy Corbyn - all of that should be their choice if they make it.

    What part of that is hard to understand?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    Consider the timing - who is the gallery being played to?
  • darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    The Heilan Coo's what?
    Your a Scot - look it up
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    I am not assuming anything but where is the evidence that are not restocking at the rate required bearing in mind the huge numbers who have already been fuelled
    From experience it is just not physically possible. I am afraid I can't give you any evidence other than my encyclopaedic knowledge of transport scheduling.
    Do we need much knowledge here?

    They couldnt keep up with deliveries with normal buying last week. (Otherwise they wouldnt have started shutting stores a couple of days ago).

    The number of stores they have to refuel next week is far more than they failed to refuel last week.

    It seems blatantly obvious there will be a bigger lag over the next week?
    The number of stores "shut" was virtually 0 prior to the media creating a story where none existed.

    Even in normal circumstances sometimes sites can run out of fuel. Especially if people are looking to generate panic. In normal circumstances its a non-story and people move on to the next site, in this manic 24/7 news and Twitter world we live in now though people can create a story out of nothing.
    BP alone had 100 stores out of at least one fuel on Thursday before any panic buying. That is not near 0.
    Out of one type of fuel isn't shut. Besides how many are out of one type of fuel in normal circumstances?
    No idea, we shall see what happens. I predict things will get worse for about a week to ten days and will be worse than typical for a further couple of weeks.
    It depends. Demand may be depressed enough by people eschewing nonessential journeys for things to get back on track again, at least for a while.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    I would expect the Speaker to intervene if she repeats it in the HOC

    What possessed her to think that is acceptable
    The CoE, Foreign and Home Sec are brown, female and both - in that order. Labour have never had a female (perm) leader.

    Seems an odd attack to me.
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
  • Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    By the author of Fake History !!!!
    I hate to say this BigG. but your constant attacks on this particular fellow Tory poster are verging on bullying.
    I think he can look after himself
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes. Because under normal circumstances ALL the filling stations are not ALL empty at a particular starting point, i.e. now, Saturday evening.
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,196
    kle4 said:

    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.

    I know 4 people with HGV licenses, none of whom drive HGVs for a living
  • darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    The Heilan Coo's what?


    https://annemckinnell.com/2018/04/29/heilan-coo-isle-of-skye-scotland/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    It’s not that simple

    A proportion of people who catch COVID will, unfortunately, die as a result.

    However if the health system is backed up with COVID cases then other operations will be postponed and a proportion of those will, unfortunately, result in people dying.

    If you take the view that moat people will be exposed to COVID at some point then it makes more sense to try and spread the burden across a wider time period
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Yes its amusing that Rochdale has been moaning about the fact that a mask mandate isn't legally mandated - then he thinks him wearing a mask will get a reaction? What twisted projectionism.

    I couldn't care less what other people wear. Its a shame if people feel they need to wear a mask, and I think its silly - but its their choice and I'll respect that.

    People can wear a mask until they die decades from now for all I care. Some of Asian origin did pre-pandemic. Just don't expect others to do so.
    You've made it amply clear you don't give a toss about anyone.
    I do give a toss about people which is why I think the vulnerable who need protection should get the advice to wear a proper FFP3 mask that actually does the job instead of a cloth mask placebo.

    As for antivaxxers - they've made their choice. Its not my job to be masked up to protect others from their own decisions. Why should it be? 🤷‍♂️
    What is wrong with a placebo? I thought you were a libertarian?
    If you're deliberately giving people a placebo, when there's a working and approved alternative available, without informing them its a placebo - then unless they've knowingly subscribed to a trial knowing a placebo is an option then that's not good ethics.
    But nobody is deliberately giving anyone anything. It is personal choice.
    Except people are giving people the misunderstanding that cloth masks work well. Rather than educate that FFP3 masks are what work well to protect the wearer.
    Are they? And are people wearing masks to protect the wearer? That certainly isn't my motivation on the occasions I wear one. And from much of the testimony here quite a few others too.
    What about those Christian cross pendants? Or indeed any religious garb?
    Saying that we will wear masks to protect antivaxxers is completely wrongheaded, we should be telling the antivaxxers "get your f***ing vaccine or get Covid".
    But there you are again. It is absolutely none of your business what other people do with regard to masks, or why.
    Insulting folk who choose to wear a mask seems to be a remarkably common libertarian trait.
    I'm not insulting folk who choose to wear a mask. They could wear a clove of garlic for all I care.

    I'm insulting folk who think they can command others to wear a mask. Those nosy busybodies have it coming.
    OK. I'll let it go. Sometimes you are a poster who gets under my skin occasionally. I think it may be because I either find myself in either strong agreement or strong disagreement with you. Very rarely in between.
    However, I am irked by the long line up of rugged, freedom loving posters who won't be told what to do by anyone at all, but are driven to a fury by the mere sight of other people in masks.
    And who assert freedom of choice, but are damned certain only one particular choice (theirs) is the morally superior, righteous and correct one.
    Of course they caveat it, but it reeks of the very puritanism they purport to condemn.
    No one should have to explain why they do or don't wear a mask. No one should be pilloried for their decision. There is no right or wrong. It is personal decision which no one else can fully appreciate the calculations or emotions behind it.
    It is the very essence of intolerance.
    But I'm not irritated by others wearing masks. I'm content to let people decide for themselves.

    I can think its the right decision to take the mask off while respecting people's right to choose to keep it on.

    Libertarianism doesn't mean being devoid of opinions or thoughts on what is best. It is about letting everyone make their own thoughts, their own decisions and their own judgements.

    I think masks are a bad idea under the circumstances. I think taking drugs are a bad idea, I think smoking is a bad idea, I think voting Labour is a bad idea. I don't do any of them. But I think if someone else wants to wear a mask, if someone else wants to take drugs, or if someone else wants to smoke and even if someone wants to vote for Jeremy Corbyn - all of that should be their choice if they make it.

    What part of that is hard to understand?
    Wait, you're saying you don't take drugs?
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes. Because under normal circumstances ALL the filling stations are not ALL empty at a particular starting point, i.e. now, Saturday evening.
    I am quite confused that people don't get this!
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Rather obviously, yes. Hence the crisis.
  • kle4 said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.
    Absolutely agreed. Time for the bosses of those companies to offer good pay and conditions, no more excuses.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,717
    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    It's called bolleaux, because the loosening of restrictions in a sector in demand are precisely in line with Brexit principles.

    But you know that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,236
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.

    I know 4 people with HGV licenses, none of whom drive HGVs for a living
    Would you drive a lorry for £25-30k a year....
  • Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.

    I know 4 people with HGV licenses, none of whom drive HGVs for a living
    Would you drive a lorry for £25-30k a year....
    Depends how far you wanted me to go!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    UK motorists face queues and closures at petrol stations https://on.ft.com/3AH5kyl

    Based on my observations today, I’d wager that anyone coming through Eurotunnel low on fuel who thought “I’ll fill up when I get back to the UK” has had a fairly stressful day.
    Especially if it’s a rental car…
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes. Because under normal circumstances ALL the filling stations are not ALL empty at a particular starting point, i.e. now, Saturday evening.
    They're not all empty now, some of them are empty now. And many fuel companies have already said they've scheduled extra deliveries now to compensate for the panic buying.

    Funny that, how they can schedule extra now when supposedly according to those wanting to create panic they were unable to do what they were doing before?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Sunday times is reporting that Essar and its refinery in Ellesmere Port is about to go bankrupt as it owes HMRC £220m
    Easily resolved by HMG! Nationalise!
This discussion has been closed.