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Can anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,228
    edited September 2021

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 6,196
    edited September 2021

    Jonathan said:

    Local fuel stations empty. Buying milk and eggs it was interesting to hear Boris mentioned ahead in the queue. ‘Doesn’t live in the real world’ apparently.

    Yes, the irritation is widespread. From a couple of of my most Tory relatives to the young urbanites, speaking to people this weekend he's definitely going to take a hit.
    He went after the French last week, so it will be probably be the turn of the BBC to be next weeks recovery scapegoat. Gives him an early chance to play the Dorries card and get the left to say something stupid about her too.
    Noticeable shortages here in largely Covid-free Cheltenham. No diesel available but some petrol and motorists queuing mostly patiently. (Well there were one or two other noisy impatient bastards as well as me, but most drivers were being pretty civilised.)

    More surprising were the ominous shortages in Waitrose. No muesli dog biscuits, ffs.

    The border collie is not best pleased.
    Not a bit surprised re: the dog biscuits (though did NOT know that they make muesli ones).

    Dogs ARE notorious hoarders, for example burying bones as a hedge against future lean times.
  • Off topic, I am tucking in to the second half of a very tasty pork stir fry we made yesterday. Of course the food purist may object to the use of macaroni in place of noodles and the use of balsamic*, but bugger that - it is yummy.

    So often, the second portion seems to be tastier than the first. Spending a night in the fridge enhances the flavour.

    *Yes, we still have three to choose from.

    I've never even heard of stir fry macaroni, that sounds yummy.

    Do you need to parboil it first? Or straight to the stir fry?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,102
    edited September 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    ” The reason we’re having all these issues is entirely because of Brexit and nothing else.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/food-petrol-shortages-brexit-goods-johnson-botched-deal

    Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian? Well, there we are then! QED.
    It must be wonderful to be so open minded.
    It must be wonderful to be so careless of the truth that you quote that snippet as if it were a summary of the piece. Actually it's a "turkey supplier from Essex" quoted within the piece; the author himself says that "Of course, [brexit]’s not the sole explanation" which is the sort of the, you know, what's the word, opposite.
    Neutral observers of this debate may care to note the actual title of the article in question:

    The cause of our food and petrol shortages is Brexit – yet no one dares name it
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,749

    ydoethur said:

    Regarding those unable to be jabbed for medical reasons, FFP3 masks will protect them. No reason for the other 99% of the population to wear a face covering.

    While I would yield to nobody in my disdain for the mask fetish some people seem to have bought into, I would say I don’t think I would ask a pregnant woman to wear an FFP3 mask. I don’t find it terribly easy with full lung capacity.
    They can shield, or wear an FFP3 mask, or take their chances.

    Same as anyone else.

    EDIT: Oh and they should be vaccinated. The vaccine is available to pregnant women already.
    At least one pregnant woman of my acquaintance (a colleague) has been advised not to get vaccinated while pregnant. I think this is because the advice didn’t change until she was in her third trimester.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,987
    Andy_JS said:

    Masks have become a political symbol. Lefty/liberals generally still wear them, others don't.

    Typical right wing arsehole opinion, thisk as mince and twice as stupid.
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.
    We do not have a shortage of fuel supplies, but if 500, 000 drivers are not available it does not matter how flexible the others are they cannot make up the difference
  • Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
  • Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    But two years ago we as a society couldn't give a monkey's about the risk of spreading flu in crowded settings. Now that vaccination has reduced the threat from Covid to roughly match that from flu, why should we take measures that were considered unnecessary in the past?
  • Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,102

    Off topic, I am tucking in to the second half of a very tasty pork stir fry we made yesterday. Of course the food purist may object to the use of macaroni in place of noodles and the use of balsamic*, but bugger that - it is yummy.

    So often, the second portion seems to be tastier than the first. Spending a night in the fridge enhances the flavour.

    *Yes, we still have three to choose from.

    Personally, if I’d spent a night in the fridge I’d be grateful for anything to eat.
  • Brentford Wow
  • Wow.

    Brentford 3 - 3 Liverpool

    Will be a shame to drop points if we can't get a fourth, but Breford deserve a point as it stands.
  • Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    But two years ago we as a society couldn't give a monkey's about the risk of spreading flu in crowded settings. Now that vaccination has reduced the threat from Covid to roughly match that from flu, why should we take measures that were considered unnecessary in the past?
    Perhaps the last 2 years has made a lot of us review our own mortality?
  • ydoethur said:

    Regarding those unable to be jabbed for medical reasons, FFP3 masks will protect them. No reason for the other 99% of the population to wear a face covering.

    While I would yield to nobody in my disdain for the mask fetish some people seem to have bought into, I would say I don’t think I would ask a pregnant woman to wear an FFP3 mask. I don’t find it terribly easy with full lung capacity.
    I'd ask a pregnant woman why she wasn't vaccinated.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    What's your proposal? That its better to postpone antivaxxer infections from now to the winter crisis?

    I don't agree. I hope as many antivaxxers as possible get the virus now.
    I genuinely don't have one, I'm just asking questions. I'll be honest, I don't much like what I'm hearing.

    I also think the NHS isn't in a great place now to cope with the extra demand this policy will inflict. Oh, and there's the practicality. I've been treating this as abstract, but in concrete terms it'll take a time for infection rates to get up to cover everyone. I don't think it would be remotely done and dusted by December, and then you'll have only made the problem you were trying to fix so much worse.
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
  • Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    But two years ago we as a society couldn't give a monkey's about the risk of spreading flu in crowded settings. Now that vaccination has reduced the threat from Covid to roughly match that from flu, why should we take measures that were considered unnecessary in the past?
    Perhaps the last 2 years has made a lot of us review our own mortality?
    I do it every day !!!!!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115
    HYUFD said:

    The key thing is all the main parties are committed to getting people double vaccinated and the vast majority of MPs across the chamber have been double vaccinated.

    Once you have been double jabbed it should be more personal choice if you want to wear a mask in the indoor space of the Commons, it is no surprise Labour MPs are more strict on mask wearing while Conservative MPs take a more relaxed view after vaccination as Labour is more the party of top down state direction and mandates

    But the top down state direction is that it is personal choice.
  • Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
  • Off topic, I am tucking in to the second half of a very tasty pork stir fry we made yesterday. Of course the food purist may object to the use of macaroni in place of noodles and the use of balsamic*, but bugger that - it is yummy.

    So often, the second portion seems to be tastier than the first. Spending a night in the fridge enhances the flavour.

    *Yes, we still have three to choose from.

    I've never even heard of stir fry macaroni, that sounds yummy.

    Do you need to parboil it first? Or straight to the stir fry?
    Macaroni cooked as normal in boiling water, drained and used as a bed for the stir fry mix.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,190
    On the German election, I reckon another grand coalition but with the SPD having the top dog.
  • Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    To be honest I have no idea but it was Sky, who are actually in Germany, who made the observation
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    .
    HYUFD said:

    The key thing is all the main parties are committed to getting people double vaccinated and the vast majority of MPs across the chamber have been double vaccinated.

    Once you have been double jabbed it should be more personal choice if you want to wear a mask in the indoor space of the Commons, it is no surprise Labour MPs are more strict on mask wearing while Conservative MPs take a more relaxed view after vaccination as Labour is more the party of top down state direction and mandates

    Indeed. The party of the brave and the party of Covid quislings.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,987

    Boris’s team feared Biden could feel “buyer’s remorse” over AUKUS due to French “brouhaha”. But at start of Oval meet he declared his support. Later agreed French can’t join + discussed widening pact. “F****** hell that went well” said a UK figure as they left.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1441757021104066571?s=20

    Total Tossers, country falling to bits and all they care about is being able to fit the toilets in Aussie subs in 20 years.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    What's your proposal? That its better to postpone antivaxxer infections from now to the winter crisis?

    I don't agree. I hope as many antivaxxers as possible get the virus now.
    I genuinely don't have one, I'm just asking questions. I'll be honest, I don't much like what I'm hearing.

    I also think the NHS isn't in a great place now to cope with the extra demand this policy will inflict. Oh, and there's the practicality. I've been treating this as abstract, but in concrete terms it'll take a time for infection rates to get up to cover everyone. I don't think it would be remotely done and dusted by December, and then you'll have only made the problem you were trying to fix so much worse.
    I don't think you understand how this works. Well over 90% of the adults in this country have antibodies already. There's bugger all room for the virus to spread without reinfections or hitting the vaccinated who are extremely protected (and doubly so after an infection).

    The virus is rapidly running out of people to infect. Pretty much just children who aren't open to the vaccine and had the bloody stupid bubbles earlier in the year.

    Every infection that happens now is quite one fewer that can happen in the winter. The more the merrier now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021
    tlg86 said:

    On the German election, I reckon another grand coalition but with the SPD having the top dog.

    If the parties are tied not impossible, which would be quite funny as there would be basically no change in government after all the hype other than Scholz replaces Merkel as Chancellor and Laschet replaces Scholz as Finance Minister and Deputy.

    If the SPD are clearly ahead though I expect the Union to go into opposition
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    What do folk think it will be if the Union surprise and top the poll?
    Germany is notorious for swingback to the government. They always outperform the polls. Which have been closing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,483
    edited September 2021

    Off topic, I am tucking in to the second half of a very tasty pork stir fry we made yesterday. Of course the food purist may object to the use of macaroni in place of noodles and the use of balsamic*, but bugger that - it is yummy.

    So often, the second portion seems to be tastier than the first. Spending a night in the fridge enhances the flavour.

    *Yes, we still have three to choose from.

    I've never even heard of stir fry macaroni, that sounds yummy.

    Do you need to parboil it first? Or straight to the stir fry?
    Macaroni cooked as normal in boiling water, drained and used as a bed for the stir fry mix.
    We do sometimes use tagliatelle in our own stir fry if the proper stuff is not available, but Mrs C grizzles a bit as she prefers the proper rice noodles. Anyway we have a mutton (not lamb) curry cooking (second half of last night's stew with the last of Mrs C's homegrown potatoes).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    There is no way the FDP will join a government with Linke, the Greens would be the third party
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,483

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    What's your proposal? That its better to postpone antivaxxer infections from now to the winter crisis?

    I don't agree. I hope as many antivaxxers as possible get the virus now.
    I genuinely don't have one, I'm just asking questions. I'll be honest, I don't much like what I'm hearing.

    I also think the NHS isn't in a great place now to cope with the extra demand this policy will inflict. Oh, and there's the practicality. I've been treating this as abstract, but in concrete terms it'll take a time for infection rates to get up to cover everyone. I don't think it would be remotely done and dusted by December, and then you'll have only made the problem you were trying to fix so much worse.
    I don't think you understand how this works. Well over 90% of the adults in this country have antibodies already. There's bugger all room for the virus to spread without reinfections or hitting the vaccinated who are extremely protected (and doubly so after an infection).

    The virus is rapidly running out of people to infect. Pretty much just children who aren't open to the vaccine and had the bloody stupid bubbles earlier in the year.

    Every infection that happens now is quite one fewer that can happen in the winter. The more the merrier now.
    But the antibodies don't protect completely. It's not mumps. So it's not running out of people in that sense.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key thing is all the main parties are committed to getting people double vaccinated and the vast majority of MPs across the chamber have been double vaccinated.

    Once you have been double jabbed it should be more personal choice if you want to wear a mask in the indoor space of the Commons, it is no surprise Labour MPs are more strict on mask wearing while Conservative MPs take a more relaxed view after vaccination as Labour is more the party of top down state direction and mandates

    But the top down state direction is that it is personal choice.
    Not from Labour it seems, see London where Khan has kept the mask wearing mandate on the tube as Mayor.

    We have been double jabbed but both had to wear our masks on the underground this afternoon therefore
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
  • Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    What's your proposal? That its better to postpone antivaxxer infections from now to the winter crisis?

    I don't agree. I hope as many antivaxxers as possible get the virus now.
    I genuinely don't have one, I'm just asking questions. I'll be honest, I don't much like what I'm hearing.

    I also think the NHS isn't in a great place now to cope with the extra demand this policy will inflict. Oh, and there's the practicality. I've been treating this as abstract, but in concrete terms it'll take a time for infection rates to get up to cover everyone. I don't think it would be remotely done and dusted by December, and then you'll have only made the problem you were trying to fix so much worse.
    I don't think you understand how this works. Well over 90% of the adults in this country have antibodies already. There's bugger all room for the virus to spread without reinfections or hitting the vaccinated who are extremely protected (and doubly so after an infection).

    The virus is rapidly running out of people to infect. Pretty much just children who aren't open to the vaccine and had the bloody stupid bubbles earlier in the year.

    Every infection that happens now is quite one fewer that can happen in the winter. The more the merrier now.
    But the antibodies don't protect completely. It's not mumps. So it's not running out of people in that sense.
    Not perfectly but its good enough.

    Reinfection rates are extremely low.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    What do folk think it will be if the Union surprise and top the poll?
    Germany is notorious for swingback to the government. They always outperform the polls. Which have been closing.
    Still a grand coalition but with Laschet as chancellor.

    Remember too 2005 where Merkel was heading for a landslide early on but then chancellor Schroder slashed her lead and after polling day there ended up being the first CDU/CSU and SPD grand coalition and not the CDU/CSU and FDP majority she had hoped for.

    The Union are pushing hard amongst centrist voters fear of Linke joining the government if the SPD win big which could be enough to cut the SPD lead to nearly nothing tomorrow and force another grand coalition. Though still probably with Scholz as chancellor
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,483
    malcolmg said:

    Boris’s team feared Biden could feel “buyer’s remorse” over AUKUS due to French “brouhaha”. But at start of Oval meet he declared his support. Later agreed French can’t join + discussed widening pact. “F****** hell that went well” said a UK figure as they left.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1441757021104066571?s=20

    Total Tossers, country falling to bits and all they care about is being able to fit the toilets in Aussie subs in 20 years.
    Ever seen a submarine toilet, BTW? It has to work first time. Though they should know how by now, since Holland 1 in 190-wotsit.
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
  • Brentford 3 - 3 Liverpool FT

    Shame to drop 2 points, but still clear at the top of the table and Brentford deserve a point. Well done them. 👏
  • HYUFD said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    There is no way the FDP will join a government with Linke, the Greens would be the third party
    Historically the FDP has been willing to go into coalition with just about anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbin or the left of Martin Bormann. Indeed, they are THE quintessential Party of Government for the Bundesrepublik.

    No doubt they'd prefer NOT to have Linke as governmental partners, but also doubt that "no way" correctly describes the FDP position.
  • Wow.

    Brentford 3 - 3 Liverpool

    Will be a shame to drop points if we can't get a fourth, but Breford deserve a point as it stands.

    Blimey. That is some result.
  • Wow.

    Brentford 3 - 3 Liverpool

    Will be a shame to drop points if we can't get a fourth, but Breford deserve a point as it stands.

    Blimey. That is some result.
    Amazing game to watch
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,190
    Is there a market on when Merkel actually goes? Could be quite fun.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713

    HYUFD said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    There is no way the FDP will join a government with Linke, the Greens would be the third party
    Historically the FDP has been willing to go into coalition with just about anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbin or the left of Martin Bormann. Indeed, they are THE quintessential Party of Government for the Bundesrepublik.

    No doubt they'd prefer NOT to have Linke as governmental partners, but also doubt that "no way" correctly describes the FDP position.
    Except Linke are not right of Corbyn.

    They will go into government with the Union or the SPD or at a push the Greens, they would not go into government with the anti business and ex Stalinist Linke
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,518

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
  • tlg86 said:

    Is there a market on when Merkel actually goes? Could be quite fun.

    If it takes as long as last time, she'll still be there when the French take over the European Council Presidency, so she could still get in the way of Macron's plans.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2021
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Boris’s team feared Biden could feel “buyer’s remorse” over AUKUS due to French “brouhaha”. But at start of Oval meet he declared his support. Later agreed French can’t join + discussed widening pact. “F****** hell that went well” said a UK figure as they left.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1441757021104066571?s=20

    Total Tossers, country falling to bits and all they care about is being able to fit the toilets in Aussie subs in 20 years.
    Ever seen a submarine toilet, BTW? It has to work first time. Though they should know how by now, since Holland 1 in 190-wotsit.
    Like the $400 ashtray on the West Wing.

    Edit forgot the link. https://youtu.be/7R9kH_HOUXM
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    dixiedean said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    What do folk think it will be if the Union surprise and top the poll?
    Germany is notorious for swingback to the government. They always outperform the polls. Which have been closing.
    I believe the CDU underperformed the polls in 2017.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115
    edited September 2021

    Brentford 3 - 3 Liverpool FT

    Shame to drop 2 points, but still clear at the top of the table and Brentford deserve a point. Well done them. 👏

    Although Brighton can now go top with a win at Palace on Monday. What odds could we have got on that?
    Shaping up to be a good season. No one looking outstanding. Some surprisingly competitive.

  • Danny Altmann
    @Daltmann10
    ·
    6h
    I’m now officially in post-Brexit wild-West. No HGV drivers, no petrol: queued most of the morning for petrol. Got near the front and they said none left. Man behind me was furious and started punching the guard. Became a melee of 8-10 men on the ground, punching and kicking
  • IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
  • tlg86 said:

    Big news: after the government conceded a judicial review application which I am acting in (see above) the hardship scheme is now in place so that people who cannot afford hotel quarantine can have fees waived or reduced

    https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1441796929281609737?s=20

    I guess the next fight will be over whether journeys were necessary against FCO advice....

    It would be nice if SKS called out this nonsense.
    It might be that SKS has put it in the too hard basket. Most voters won't know what he is talking about and for those who are paying attention, HMG has just announced new exemptions on either medical or compassionate grounds.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,713
    justin124 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    What do folk think it will be if the Union surprise and top the poll?
    Germany is notorious for swingback to the government. They always outperform the polls. Which have been closing.
    I believe the CDU underperformed the polls in 2017.
    So did the SPD, the FDP and AfD however outperformed most final polls

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_German_federal_election
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,987

    ydoethur said:

    Regarding those unable to be jabbed for medical reasons, FFP3 masks will protect them. No reason for the other 99% of the population to wear a face covering.

    While I would yield to nobody in my disdain for the mask fetish some people seem to have bought into, I would say I don’t think I would ask a pregnant woman to wear an FFP3 mask. I don’t find it terribly easy with full lung capacity.
    They can shield, or wear an FFP3 mask, or take their chances.

    Same as anyone else.

    EDIT: Oh and they should be vaccinated. The vaccine is available to pregnant women already.
    What a pompous arsehole you are.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 47,523
    edited September 2021

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I do not disagree with that but as I said before HMG's opposition has decided to fight it's own internal battles nobody outside cares about, and is giving Boris a free pass

    I do expect Boris will suffer in the next few polls but then at this time in the cycle and with this crisis labour should be out of sight
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    What do folk think it will be if the Union surprise and top the poll?
    Germany is notorious for swingback to the government. They always outperform the polls. Which have been closing.
    I believe the CDU underperformed the polls in 2017.
    So did the SPD, the FDP and AfD however outperformed most final polls

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_German_federal_election
    Indeed so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    tlg86 said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a very odd discussion.

    We shouldn't be asking do masks work?

    We should be asking given where we are with vaccinations and antibodies, why do we need extensive restrictions?

    My gut - and it's just a gut - is that the only remaining defensible mask requirement is on public transport. (And, if we're honest, only really when it's busy. The problem is that that is a very hard condition to enforce.)

    The question is even more basic, IMO, is it now a public health goal to prevent COVID from spreading? The answer, in the UK at least, is probably a pretty resounding no. We need COVID to spread as widely as possible and get as many people into the natural immunity funnel as possible before the NHS winter crisis.
    Why do you think there will be a crisis in the NHS in the winter?
    The weekly death stats suggest we're starting to catch up on those who dodged the reaper last winter (no flu etc.). I'm not sure if that feeds through into those who end up in hospital, but if it does, then it will probably be a tough winter. (Obviously, people dying isn't as much of a problem for the NHS as people getting ill and taking up beds.)
    Ok, and how does Covid feed into that? How does letting it spread rapidly through the population now help in any way?
    Better to get COVID out of the way now before flu takes off in Dec-Apr.
    You're not quite saying the thing that underpins the logic of this argument: that having Covid burn through the population will add strain on the NHS. That's the logic, isn't it? Spread the strain out over 6 months instead of 4. Have people dying in hospital now instead of in January.
    It's that acknowledgement that having Covid spread wide will kill people, that's what I'm after. Because it's true, isn't it?
    So what if it is? Everyone in the country is going to get it. You're looking for some idiotic gotcha moment but none of us are politicians and you aren't Robert Peston. At least I hope you aren't.
    I'm not after a gotcha, I'm just checking that you're advocating what I think you're advocating.
    There are other things you could advocate to prevent strain on the NHS. I'll just note that masks also help prevent the spread of flu. Some people might like the idea of saving lives lost to both Covid and flu. And perhaps better planning and money for the NHS to cope with what appears to be a predictable time of difficulty. There are different ways forward.
    But two years ago we as a society couldn't give a monkey's about the risk of spreading flu in crowded settings. Now that vaccination has reduced the threat from Covid to roughly match that from flu, why should we take measures that were considered unnecessary in the past?
    People may have reassessed their willingness to bear the costs of such a cavalier attitude to even the flu as a result of rethinking how much they can unburden the NHS by taking a few additional precautions.

    I don't say I am doing that. but I'm not surprised it would be advocated.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677
    dixiedean said:


    Brentford 3 - 3 Liverpool FT

    Shame to drop 2 points, but still clear at the top of the table and Brentford deserve a point. Well done them. 👏

    Although Brighton can now go top with a win at Palace on Monday. What odds could we have got on that?
    Shaping up to be a good season. No one looking outstanding. Some surprisingly competitive.
    Leicester having a poorish start. Good going forward, but Evans and Fofana out as our two best centrebacks is leaving us far too leaky. Vardy looking great today, apart from the own goal.

    Burnley look relegation fodder this year. Cornet was their best player and went off with a hamstring not long after his goal.
  • malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Regarding those unable to be jabbed for medical reasons, FFP3 masks will protect them. No reason for the other 99% of the population to wear a face covering.

    While I would yield to nobody in my disdain for the mask fetish some people seem to have bought into, I would say I don’t think I would ask a pregnant woman to wear an FFP3 mask. I don’t find it terribly easy with full lung capacity.
    They can shield, or wear an FFP3 mask, or take their chances.

    Same as anyone else.

    EDIT: Oh and they should be vaccinated. The vaccine is available to pregnant women already.
    What a pompous arsehole you are.
    Hello pot. I'm kettle. You're black.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,680
    edited September 2021

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    I only agree with you on fuel, Philip. I'm sure this is a fake shortage. Reminiscent of Toilet rolls in 2020. The shortages of food and other materials etc is another matter.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,518

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    I've had to drive/be driven to A&E twice in the last two weeks (don't ask. Horses.) Both times, a choice of drive yourself, or wait 3 hours for an ambulance. No fuel, no self drive option. Presiding over a fuel panic puts the government in breach of its primary duty to keep the citizens safe.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sky suggesting Merkel may still be Chancellor for some time to come

    How?
    Apparently the election is unlikely to provide a clear government and coalition talks may well extend into 22
    oic

    I think it will be SPD/FDP/Grn or SPD/FDP/Linke at a push.
    What do folk think it will be if the Union surprise and top the poll?
    Germany is notorious for swingback to the government. They always outperform the polls. Which have been closing.
    I believe the CDU underperformed the polls in 2017.
    So did the SPD, the FDP and AfD however outperformed most final polls

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2017_German_federal_election
    Yes. I am wrong. Goddamn reading, recalling and reciting a fact without checking.
    Keep this up and I'll be on the front bench.
    Although admitting I am wrong probably has me barred.
  • malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    Regarding those unable to be jabbed for medical reasons, FFP3 masks will protect them. No reason for the other 99% of the population to wear a face covering.

    While I would yield to nobody in my disdain for the mask fetish some people seem to have bought into, I would say I don’t think I would ask a pregnant woman to wear an FFP3 mask. I don’t find it terribly easy with full lung capacity.
    They can shield, or wear an FFP3 mask, or take their chances.

    Same as anyone else.

    EDIT: Oh and they should be vaccinated. The vaccine is available to pregnant women already.
    What a pompous arsehole you are.
    I am sure there was a poster with a similar name this morning decrying those who get easily offended.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,777
    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    Of course it does! In exactly the same way it looked terrible for the Blair Government in 2000.

    Whether it moves the polls is another matter. If it doesn't, Johnson is the second coming, and the Almighty is a Conservative.
  • geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    In which case the first panickers spending 2 mins to fill up are surely rational as well as 2 mins is less stressful than 2 hours with the potential for failure and or a punch up at the end?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,386

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    I wonder how many of them have sneaked out to fill up and not admitted it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,777

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    In which case the first panickers spending 2 mins to fill up are surely rational as well as 2 mins is less stressful than 2 hours with the potential for failure and or a punch up at the end?
    Nice forward reduction.

  • geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    QTWAIN.

    If you have half a tank of petrol and that's going to get you through another week then there's no reason whatsoever to top that tank up to full now. Because within a few days the panic buying morons tanks will all be full and the petrol stations will have been refuelled.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,190
    Farooq said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    I wonder how many of them have sneaked out to fill up and not admitted it.
    I went filled up yesterday as I was pretty low and need my car tomorrow. But I wouldn't have bothered if there had been much of a queue.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115
    Farooq said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    I wonder how many of them have sneaked out to fill up and not admitted it.
    They are panic buying morons.
    I am just nipping out to be on the safe side.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,788

    Where's Leon? Wasn't he was always advocating that mask wearing should become a permanent social convention?

    No
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,777

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,518
    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    No. I have now officially despaired of getting that achingly simple point across.

    But one last time

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

    ...please remind me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    Leon said:

    Where's Leon? Wasn't he was always advocating that mask wearing should become a permanent social convention?

    No
    I think it was Eadric or Lady G. not Leon.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

    ...please remind me.
    Fake news anyway? Perhaps...

    https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,777

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

    ...please remind me.
    "Margaret Thatcher once said anyone on a bus over the age of 25 is a failure,”

    Jeremy Corbyn, 25 April 2019

    But fullfact says it's apocryphal.
    https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/

  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,788
    Bars, clubs and pubs in London are getting rid of those hideous plastic barriers.

    Good

    This virus will kill 1000s every year. So do many viruses, we don't live our lives in perspex boxes as a result
  • Anyone know what time the Joshua fight is likely to actually start? Weighing up whether it is worth paying for, and thinking not if it clashes with the Ryder Cup, although that does depend on Europe hanging in there.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,518

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    The hilarity must be off the scale, but does your car remain stationary in a distinctively ribtickling way if it is out of fuel because of panic buyers rather than let's say tanker driver shortages, or is the result indistinguishable?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

    ...please remind me.
    Fake news anyway? Perhaps...

    https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

    ...please remind me.
    "Margaret Thatcher once said anyone on a bus over the age of 25 is a failure,”

    Jeremy Corbyn, 25 April 2019

    But fullfact says it's apocryphal.
    https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/

    Thanks
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,518
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    ...or resign oneself to taking the bus for the next week.
    What did the blessed Margaret say about people over 25 who go by bus?

    Over 30, and it wasn't her.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,302
    Leon said:

    Bars, clubs and pubs in London are getting rid of those hideous plastic barriers.

    Good

    This virus will kill 1000s every year. So do many viruses, we don't live our lives in perspex boxes as a result

    Yeah, the Sainsbury's near my parents has got rid of it all and all of their one way systems. I wish they'd do that for the one near me. It was almost like going into a time warp because almost none of the people or staff were wearing masks. Outer London has got this figured out. This is a very wealthy middle class part of it too, I just think people have stopped giving a fuck. Only a few virtue signallers on here say they will keep wearing them but I suspect the reality is quite different.
  • TresTres Posts: 671
    Turns out that Johnson's oven ready deal is looking more and more like a dog's breakfast with each passing day.
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    Of course it does! In exactly the same way it looked terrible for the Blair Government in 2000.

    Whether it moves the polls is another matter. If it doesn't, Johnson is the second coming, and the Almighty is a Conservative.
    This is completely different to 2000. In 2000 the stations weren't able to be refuelled due to the blockades which led to thousands and eventually almost all (from memory) stations running out of fuel. Since they weren't able to be refuelled this dragged on for weeks.

    This is a couple of days of idiot-led hysteria but the fuel stations are already being refuelled. So this time next week there'll be people with egg on their face and full tanks. Not the same thing at all.

    Plus of course in 2000 high taxes the government had introduced was behind the protests and the protests (initially) had overwhelming support in polls because the public were annoyed at petrol prices themselves. And it highlighted just how much of the price was tax. Hysteria isn't taxed unfortunately.
  • Leon said:

    Bars, clubs and pubs in London are getting rid of those hideous plastic barriers.

    Good

    This virus will kill 1000s every year. So do many viruses, we don't live our lives in perspex boxes as a result

    Think its just the flu and covid virus that kill 1000s in the UK? HIV is hundreds and imagine that is next?

    As for the perspex cant say it bothers me in restaurants but once you get to clubs they are out of place and pointless giving the mixing generally.
  • Leon said:

    Where's Leon? Wasn't he was always advocating that mask wearing should become a permanent social convention?

    No
    I think it was Eadric or Lady G. not Leon.
    I apologize to Leon in that case - crazy confusion on my part!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    Tres said:

    Turns out that Johnson's oven ready deal is looking more and more like a dog's breakfast with each passing day.

    It was a turkey!
  • Tres said:

    Turns out that Johnson's oven ready deal is looking more and more like a dog's breakfast with each passing day.

    And a hellish price to turn the oven on and all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,677
    Tres said:

    Turns out that Johnson's oven ready deal is looking more and more like a dog's breakfast with each passing day.

    No one said how long it needed to cook, or how edible it would be...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,788

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    COVID is endemic. You're talking about wearing a mask for the rest of your life. It isn't ever going away. We're already through the pandemic, you're the Japanese soldier in 1970 holding out on a tiny island thinking the war isn't over.
    Bless. Once we have completed roll-out of vaccinations then transmission rates will drop.

    The sad reality is that the UK has fallen well behind with vaccinations because people refuse to get it, has an endemic transmission rate significantly ahead of neighbouring countries, and let have the most aggressive "ditch masks and social distancing" views of anyone.
    We've completed rollout of vaccines. It's done. Everyone who wants a vaccine can walk up and get one. What are you proposing? That the army (sans drivers, of course) march down the street and forcibly break down doors and jab this people who refused?

    You're fighting a war that we've already lost/won depending on your perspective.

    COVID is endemic. That's where we are. Deal with it.
    Then we will have to accept the long term underling load on the NHS. On us being red listed by countries we want to travel to. On not getting clear of this when others do.

    We could have got more people jabbed. Our neighbours managed it. Then again their leadership told people get the jab or else. Here Beaker told people it was over before it was, and so we're stuck with 30-40k new cases a day.

    Ironically the one card he had left was to quote Kermit the Frog at the UN vaccine passports. I'm against these in principle, but they would have been effective in getting younger jab avoiders to get one.
    Honestly, you're living in a complete dreamworld. None of the stuff you say is happening. Who cares if there's 30-40k cases per day? You've got yourself into a position where you're so far gone with opposing the government that you instinctively disagree with everything even when they're right. On going back to the old normal they are absolutely right. You want the delta cases now when there is high latent immunity and no NHS crisis, not in November and December with lower immunity and the annual NHS crisis.

    Lots of the experts said as much when they supported the July 19th final restrictions being lifted.

    Where we're at is unvaccinated people getting sick with COVID. That's a choice they made. The sooner all of those people are through the funnel the better.
    With hindsight, I think the government got the delay to the 21st June reopening, and then the reopening on 19th July, correct. Probably not perfect, but correct enough. Certainly the prophecies of doom about reopening don't appear to have come to pass.

    However: I wish people wouldn't be so blase about only the unvaccinated becoming sick. As far as I'm aware that isn't true, and we still have lots of people dying daily. We couldn't continue with the restrictions, but neither are we out of the woods yet.
    I think the problem is that actually we are never going to be out of the woods. This is probably about as good as it is ever going to get but with a seasonal cycle imposed over the top. Just like seasonal flu. As such people have to decide whether they are going to make permanent changes to their lifestyle - masks, avoiding certain events etc - or if they are just going to accept that we have had one more small risk added to the many that already existed and that they want to get on with their lives without constantly worrying about about all the many things that may bring them down.
    Absolutely right: as you are, quite often
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,777
    IshmaelZ said:

    geoffw said:

    Can we agree that even if the first panickers are irrational, once the panic has started it makes sense to join in?

    No. I have now officially despaired of getting that achingly simple point across.

    But one last time

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
    El preso número nueve ya lo van a confesar
    ...
    El preso número nueve era un hombre muy cabal

    But don't despair! Tit for tat does quite well (in repeated PDs).

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,115
    Leon said:

    Bars, clubs and pubs in London are getting rid of those hideous plastic barriers.

    Good

    This virus will kill 1000s every year. So do many viruses, we don't live our lives in perspex boxes as a result

    Sitting behind a screen was all the rage in the 80's. Betting shops, job centres, banks, cinema ticket booths all had them.
    Then, in the 90's they disappeared in the main. Why? Cos they were customer unfeiendly.
  • I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    I am not sure you are entirely right, or even right at all, come to think of it.

    But that matters not a jot. The optics today look horrible for the Government (and for Brexit) whoever is to blame.
    I don't think it looks terrible at all. Everyone I've spoken to about it in real life is making fun of the panic buying morons who are behind this.
    Of course it does! In exactly the same way it looked terrible for the Blair Government in 2000.

    Whether it moves the polls is another matter. If it doesn't, Johnson is the second coming, and the Almighty is a Conservative.
    This is completely different to 2000. In 2000 the stations weren't able to be refuelled due to the blockades which led to thousands and eventually almost all (from memory) stations running out of fuel. Since they weren't able to be refuelled this dragged on for weeks.

    This is a couple of days of idiot-led hysteria but the fuel stations are already being refuelled. So this time next week there'll be people with egg on their face and full tanks. Not the same thing at all.

    Plus of course in 2000 high taxes the government had introduced was behind the protests and the protests (initially) had overwhelming support in polls because the public were annoyed at petrol prices themselves. And it highlighted just how much of the price was tax. Hysteria isn't taxed unfortunately.
    And let's not forget that the police did feck all about those illegally blocking the refineries and fuel depots.

    Strangely, when it is environmental protesters outside those same facilities they are straight in the back of the van.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,496
    Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Even if you, mask-free, cough all over me and it results in my untimely demise?

    Nice!
  • Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Yes its amusing that Rochdale has been moaning about the fact that a mask mandate isn't legally mandated - then he thinks him wearing a mask will get a reaction? What twisted projectionism.

    I couldn't care less what other people wear. Its a shame if people feel they need to wear a mask, and I think its silly - but its their choice and I'll respect that.

    People can wear a mask until they die decades from now for all I care. Some of Asian origin did pre-pandemic. Just don't expect others to do so.
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