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Can anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Chris said:

    Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Yes its amusing that Rochdale has been moaning about the fact that a mask mandate isn't legally mandated - then he thinks him wearing a mask will get a reaction? What twisted projectionism.

    I couldn't care less what other people wear. Its a shame if people feel they need to wear a mask, and I think its silly - but its their choice and I'll respect that.

    People can wear a mask until they die decades from now for all I care. Some of Asian origin did pre-pandemic. Just don't expect others to do so.
    You've made it amply clear you don't give a toss about anyone.
    I do give a toss about people which is why I think the vulnerable who need protection should get the advice to wear a proper FFP3 mask that actually does the job instead of a cloth mask placebo.

    As for antivaxxers - they've made their choice. Its not my job to be masked up to protect others from their own decisions. Why should it be? 🤷‍♂️
    What is wrong with a placebo? I thought you were a libertarian?
    If you're deliberately giving people a placebo, when there's a working and approved alternative available, without informing them its a placebo - then unless they've knowingly subscribed to a trial knowing a placebo is an option then that's not good ethics.
    But nobody is deliberately giving anyone anything. It is personal choice.
    Except people are giving people the misunderstanding that cloth masks work well. Rather than educate that FFP3 masks are what work well to protect the wearer.
    Are they? And are people wearing masks to protect the wearer? That certainly isn't my motivation on the occasions I wear one. And from much of the testimony here quite a few others too.
    What about those Christian cross pendants? Or indeed any religious garb?
    Saying that we will wear masks to protect antivaxxers is completely wrongheaded, we should be telling the antivaxxers "get your f***ing vaccine or get Covid".
    But there you are again. It is absolutely none of your business what other people do with regard to masks, or why.
    Insulting folk who choose to wear a mask seems to be a remarkably common libertarian trait.
    I'm not insulting folk who choose to wear a mask. They could wear a clove of garlic for all I care.

    I'm insulting folk who think they can command others to wear a mask. Those nosy busybodies have it coming.
    OK. I'll let it go. Sometimes you are a poster who gets under my skin occasionally. I think it may be because I either find myself in either strong agreement or strong disagreement with you. Very rarely in between.
    However, I am irked by the long line up of rugged, freedom loving posters who won't be told what to do by anyone at all, but are driven to a fury by the mere sight of other people in masks.
    And who assert freedom of choice, but are damned certain only one particular choice (theirs) is the morally superior, righteous and correct one.
    Of course they caveat it, but it reeks of the very puritanism they purport to condemn.
    No one should have to explain why they do or don't wear a mask. No one should be pilloried for their decision. There is no right or wrong. It is personal decision which no one else can fully appreciate the calculations or emotions behind it.
    It is the very essence of intolerance.
    But I'm not irritated by others wearing masks. I'm content to let people decide for themselves.

    I can think its the right decision to take the mask off while respecting people's right to choose to keep it on.

    Libertarianism doesn't mean being devoid of opinions or thoughts on what is best. It is about letting everyone make their own thoughts, their own decisions and their own judgements.

    I think masks are a bad idea under the circumstances. I think taking drugs are a bad idea, I think smoking is a bad idea, I think voting Labour is a bad idea. I don't do any of them. But I think if someone else wants to wear a mask, if someone else wants to take drugs, or if someone else wants to smoke and even if someone wants to vote for Jeremy Corbyn - all of that should be their choice if they make it.

    What part of that is hard to understand?
    As I said at the beginning, I may be conflating your views with those of others, for which I apologise.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,384
    kle4 said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.
    Or they all earned so much that they could afford to retire at 50...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited September 25

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    I would expect the Speaker to intervene if she repeats it in the HOC

    What possessed her to think that is acceptable
    I would imagine it was a reaction to when she did get upbraided for calling a Tory scum in the Commons about a year ago. She wants to be blunt, the party love it and I'm sure she believes it, and is not permitted to say it in the Chamber.

    We know what the reaction is to such comments, a significant portion will say 'Well, she's not wrong' even when it happens in the Commons and many (though not all) people agree with the concept of somewhat restrained language in a deliberative assembly. The point may well have been made back then that if she wanted to make such blunt insults she is free to do it out of the Chamber, and I guess she is taking advantage of that. What are they going to do, sue her for defamation?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    edited September 25

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
    So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

    Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

    Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    I wonder if Boris will legislate to impose a kind of minimum wage for HGV drivers. Or he might even nationalize the sector.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited September 25
    Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited September 25
    Joshua getting lit up...he ain't no Tyson Fury.
  • Scott_xP said:

    One of Britain’s biggest oil refineries is teetering on the brink of collapse, piling further potential pressure on crisis-riven petrol stations.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7d386c68-1e05-11ec-9699-f7cb5224a0e1?shareToken=4948358e7348527731903f3dc67b88bd

    Unlikely that they're in a position to give their drivers a rise then.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    Andy_JS said:

    "Rachel Wearmouth
    @REWearmouth

    Woah! So Rayner does not hold back as she slates the “racist”, “homophobic” and “misogynistic” Tory “scum” in government who are operating a “banana republic” from Downing St.

    I wonder what she really thinks!
    9:13 PM · Sep 25, 2021·Twitter for iPhone"

    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1441858328468942851

    Well, first she has to win over the Labour Membership...
  • Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes. Because under normal circumstances ALL the filling stations are not ALL empty at a particular starting point, i.e. now, Saturday evening.
    So the equation hasn't changed - fuel in will equal fuel consumed.

    In fact in the very short term fuel consumption might fall either through nervous people putting off unnecessary travel or some unfortunates not being able to.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,944

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    Profiteering?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,511

    I am quite confused that people don't get this!

    Brexiteers who claim to be in favour of smashing the status quo and letting new systems emerge from the rubble seem quite oblivious to what actually happens when the equilibrium collapses...
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,350
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    It's called bolleaux, because the loosening of restrictions in a sector in demand are precisely in line with Brexit principles.

    But you know that.
    It is, and it's my least favourite part of Brexit. The government is a poor arbiter of what industry needs, and having government involved in setting quotas is going to lead to worse economic outcomes.
    It's really bad for the market to have the government insert itself in the process. And as ministers come and go, and governments change and change back again, agendas change. Some industries may be favoured one year and not the next. Is that going to encourage investment? It is not.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,793

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    I wonder if Boris will legislate to impose a kind of minimum wage for HGV drivers. Or he might even nationalize the sector.
    What does better conditions mean in this case? The most immediate I can think of is fewer hours, but that could end up making rather a circular problem if applied back to existing workers.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,511

    I wonder if Boris will legislate to impose a kind of minimum wage for HGV drivers. Or he might even nationalize the sector.

    I am looking forward to him Nationalising an oil refinery on the eve of COP
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
    So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

    Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

    Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?
    25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,944
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    I've had to drive/be driven to A&E twice in the last two weeks (don't ask. Horses.) Both times, a choice of drive yourself, or wait 3 hours for an ambulance. No fuel, no self drive option. Presiding over a fuel panic puts the government in breach of its primary duty to keep the citizens safe.
    You could ride there?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,863

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

    How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,767

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.

    Even accounting for variations around the country I really have very little sense of how much particular professions earn on average. How much they 'should' earn is hard, since outside the really high paying professions I'm likely to think most should get more than they do.

    I tend to think of around 30k as 'decent', so if it seems like a particularly tough job I think it should be north of that at the least, but there's no sense to it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,511
    Pro_Rata said:

    What does better conditions mean in this case? The most immediate I can think of is fewer hours, but that could end up making rather a circular problem if applied back to existing workers.

    They have already allowed longer hours to try and ease the problem
  • Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.

    I know 4 people with HGV licenses, none of whom drive HGVs for a living
    Would you drive a lorry for £25-30k a year....
    I have friends in America who drive for UPS on over $100,000 per year. That's not unusual there - and no they're not in a union.

    The way people think that others can or should be expected to fill jobs for poor wages they wouldn't do themselves at that rate is ridiculous.

    Supply and demand should set wages - if that means that a trucker gets paid more than an MP so be it. What's wrong in that?

    Supply and demand would probably mean MPs pay rates come down though to be fair. There seems to be a shortage of people wanting to work as truck drivers at those pay rates - but there never seems to be a shortage of candidates to become an MP. In fact that seems to be massively oversubscribed for all parties so that rate ought to be able to come down at a free market rate.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,511
    UK to issue temporary visas for truck drivers and farm workers https://on.ft.com/3kHL8XE
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    Hope your TLA license is in good order after that post!
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 961
    edited September 25
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    Consider the timing - who is the gallery being played to?
    My dad used to be a conservative activist in the 1980's/90's and he took us out campaigning on rough Council estates. We used to get chased out by dogs and thugs, bricks through the car window, etc.

    He said to me: 'this is what happens if the socialists get in to power'.
  • Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.

    I'm somewhat baffled/amused by the breathless reports that Tesco offers a £1k signing on bonus for new HGV drivers.

    I mean a thousand quid, its not luxury cruise / deposit on a house sort of money is it.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

    How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.
    Indeed which means that for the next few weeks there'll be (all else being equal) less demand than normal on the system since its going to take a while to get down from 100% back to 10% again.

    And the supplies going to the forecourts next week are going to be more than average because the chains have laid on extra routes in response to the panic buying.

    So lower demand + extra supply. Doesn't take an econometrician to work that one out.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    I wonder if Boris will legislate to impose a kind of minimum wage for HGV drivers. Or he might even nationalize the sector.
    What does better conditions mean in this case? The most immediate I can think of is fewer hours, but that could end up making rather a circular problem if applied back to existing workers.
    Yes, if Boris's instructions to employers don't actually result in any new recruitment, then the cost of keeping the status quo is going to soar. Boris needs to be careful here or he could devastate an entire sector.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,944

    Charles said:

    Lets put it like this. When I go to Germany next month it'll be mandatory mask wearing with pox rates less than a quarter they are here. So when I then fly into London for the few days that follow it would be illogical to adopt the Tories' view and say "no risk, no mask".

    Yes I have been double jabbed. But pox is still running rampant and still making people ill and still giving double-jabbed people like my mum long Covid.

    Well fuck that. If me wearing a mask makes some people on the blue side of politics react, I honestly don't care. We will get through this pandemic. We haven't yet.

    The vast majority of people on the blue side think you should be free to wear whatever you damn well like. They just don’t want you telling them what to wear.
    Even if you, mask-free, cough all over me and it results in my untimely demise?

    Nice!
    Personally I would view that as discourteous, so choose to wear a mask where appropriate. Although having just worn one for 10.5 hours on a flight I can say that I very much dislike them.

    But that is very different to compulsion which should only happen in extraordinary circumstances
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.

    I'm somewhat baffled/amused by the breathless reports that Tesco offers a £1k signing on bonus for new HGV drivers.

    I mean a thousand quid, its not luxury cruise / deposit on a house sort of money is it.
    It might as well be for people whose account drops to zero or below around the time of their current payday. Though HGV drivers may not be among those in that situation.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,863
    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    I've had to drive/be driven to A&E twice in the last two weeks (don't ask. Horses.) Both times, a choice of drive yourself, or wait 3 hours for an ambulance. No fuel, no self drive option. Presiding over a fuel panic puts the government in breach of its primary duty to keep the citizens safe.
    You could ride there?
    Well, yes, but that’s on the problem, rather than solution, side of the equation.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    edited September 25

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    I expect out of one million there will be enough to tempt back into the job with the right incentives, and I understand some regulations are to be delayed but that is not my field

    And for the avoidance of doubt I have never possessed a HGV licence
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,668

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    Aren't most of them going to be just, well, old? Long retired. Last drove a lorry in the 1990s.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,793
    I hear anecdote that vets are now cancelling annual pet vaccination appointments because of a shortage of vaccines.
  • Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    It's called bolleaux, because the loosening of restrictions in a sector in demand are precisely in line with Brexit principles.

    But you know that.
    It is, and it's my least favourite part of Brexit. The government is a poor arbiter of what industry needs, and having government involved in setting quotas is going to lead to worse economic outcomes.
    It's really bad for the market to have the government insert itself in the process. And as ministers come and go, and governments change and change back again, agendas change. Some industries may be favoured one year and not the next. Is that going to encourage investment? It is not.
    You're right, a free market solution is a better solution.

    Having had some time to think of it I think we should say that anyone on a PAYE salary of £X or higher can very easily get a visa, which is conditional upon them remaining on PAYE above the £X threshold.

    Where £X is to be set at an MP's salary.

    If you want to bring in someone on PAYE that costs more than an MP then absolutely go ahead, that's the market threshold rate set. But if your job isn't worth at least that, then hire someone here paying whatever is required for the job.

    Still have migration through other routes for other reasons, but have that as a "free market" clearing rate.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    I knew a couple who about 5 years ago were often getting contacted about going back into teaching, though it had been 6 and 10 years since either had been in that sector, let alone teaching. Can't remember if they were given any particular incentive to do so, but it didn't work.
  • darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    The Heilan Coo's what?


    https://annemckinnell.com/2018/04/29/heilan-coo-isle-of-skye-scotland/
    I see that you've drunk so much Brexiteer Kool-Aid that you've adopted their apostrophe.

    'Use an apostrophe +"s" ('s) to show that one person/thing owns or is a member of something.
    Amy's ballet class
    Lisa's car
    Robert's car'
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

    How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.
    And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    Aren't most of them going to be just, well, old? Long retired. Last drove a lorry in the 1990s.
    I suspect many just regarded it as a crap job - days away from home, eating awful muck in service stations, sleeping in a confined space amid your stale, lingering farts - and decided there were better things to be doing.
  • Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    Profiteering?
    Supply and demand.

    What's wrong with profiteering? If people are going to queue up to be idiots then let them pay through the nose for that.

    Maybe use that money raised to pay for extra supply runs next week for the people who aren't being idiots?

    I don't see why profiteering should be a dirty word in circumstances were people are queueing up throw their money at someone who is in business to make a profit!
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    Aren't most of them going to be just, well, old? Long retired. Last drove a lorry in the 1990s.
    I suspect many just regarded it as a crap job - days away from home, eating awful muck in service stations, sleeping in a confined space amid your stale, lingering farts - and decided there were better things to be doing.
    A crap job at £26k salary and a crap job at £90k salary are two very different things.

    Set the reward right and people will think "yes this is a crap job, but I'm well renumerated so I'm happy with that".
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,767

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    The Heilan Coo's what?


    https://annemckinnell.com/2018/04/29/heilan-coo-isle-of-skye-scotland/
    I see that you've drunk so much Brexiteer Kool-Aid that you've adopted their apostrophe.

    'Use an apostrophe +"s" ('s) to show that one person/thing owns or is a member of something.
    Amy's ballet class
    Lisa's car
    Robert's car'
    Boris's Brexit catastrophe.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited September 25
    Usyk winning this fight easily. Good fight though.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,863

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

    How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.
    And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?
    Jesus.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    I wonder how this letter will be worded. 'Your country needs you! It's your civic duty to get back on the road', that sort of thing?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    I wonder if Boris will legislate to impose a kind of minimum wage for HGV drivers. Or he might even nationalize the sector.
    What does better conditions mean in this case? The most immediate I can think of is fewer hours, but that could end up making rather a circular problem if applied back to existing workers.
    The most common complaint is having to sleep, pee and shit in your cab due to lack of facilities. Not sure how that is solved quickly.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,384

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

    How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.
    And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?
    Some of the daft feckers probably will. They'll even take their lawnmower with them and top that up too.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    edited September 25

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    The Heilan Coo's what?


    https://annemckinnell.com/2018/04/29/heilan-coo-isle-of-skye-scotland/
    I see that you've drunk so much Brexiteer Kool-Aid that you've adopted their apostrophe.

    'Use an apostrophe +"s" ('s) to show that one person/thing owns or is a member of something.
    Amy's ballet class
    Lisa's car
    Robert's car'
    I am beyond my three score and ten by some years, have moments when my English is not the best, but you are correct there is no apostrophe in coos, though my predictive text indicates there is and at this time of night maybe I am not at my quickest to spot it
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,767

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    I expect out of one million there will be enough to tempt back into the job with the right incentives, and I understand some regulations are to be delayed but that is not my field

    And for the avoidance of doubt I have never possessed a HGV licence
    Someone has already suggested this includes current driver's and presumably Johnny Foreigner who has already returned to Hungary.

    My point was even if ALL of these drivers are willing and able, assuming they haven't driven for a year or two, it will take another year or two to get them all up to the required CPD (continued professional development) training now required to drive a truck.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,350

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    It's called bolleaux, because the loosening of restrictions in a sector in demand are precisely in line with Brexit principles.

    But you know that.
    It is, and it's my least favourite part of Brexit. The government is a poor arbiter of what industry needs, and having government involved in setting quotas is going to lead to worse economic outcomes.
    It's really bad for the market to have the government insert itself in the process. And as ministers come and go, and governments change and change back again, agendas change. Some industries may be favoured one year and not the next. Is that going to encourage investment? It is not.
    You're right, a free market solution is a better solution.

    Having had some time to think of it I think we should say that anyone on a PAYE salary of £X or higher can very easily get a visa, which is conditional upon them remaining on PAYE above the £X threshold.

    Where £X is to be set at an MP's salary.

    If you want to bring in someone on PAYE that costs more than an MP then absolutely go ahead, that's the market threshold rate set. But if your job isn't worth at least that, then hire someone here paying whatever is required for the job.

    Still have migration through other routes for other reasons, but have that as a "free market" clearing rate.
    All you're doing there is linking two populist ideas together. That's not the free market, that's just making immigration policy into a Rube Goldberg machine. You sometimes say stuff that's brilliantly right and sometimes brilliantly wrong, but that little scheme, that's just madness speaking.
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
    So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

    Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

    Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?
    25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.
    So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

    Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

    Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

    And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541
    edited September 25
    Government has put a couple of arguments to bed.
    There are shortages.
    They are a problem.
    Thanks for clearing that up then.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,798
    The government have definitely fucked up. The only question is how much.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,878
    Jonathan said:

    The government have definitely fucked up. The only question is how much.

    Johnson will have to go if he can't sort out this petrol problem pretty quickly.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

    Apart from the ones that are not being refilled
    How many are of those and your source
    There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

    It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume
    But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

    So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.
    Ffs.

    When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

    No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

    I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.
    Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

    Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?
    Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

    How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.
    And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?
    Jesus.
    He goes by donkey.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

    Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?
    I expect out of one million there will be enough to tempt back into the job with the right incentives, and I understand some regulations are to be delayed but that is not my field

    And for the avoidance of doubt I have never possessed a HGV licence
    Someone has already suggested this includes current driver's and presumably Johnny Foreigner who has already returned to Hungary.

    My point was even if ALL of these drivers are willing and able, assuming they haven't driven for a year or two, it will take another year or two to get them all up to the required CPD (continued professional development) training now required to drive a truck.
    Actually that was mentioned on BBC (CPD) and the suggestion was that it will be suspended for this period to Christmas
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,767
    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,878
    "Guffers
    @gavmacn

    Jacob Rees Mogg remains unaffected by the petrol shortage:"

    https://twitter.com/gavmacn/status/1441782805084753920
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
    So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

    Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

    Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?
    25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.
    So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

    Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

    Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

    And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.
    Oldies being richer and more numerous is pretty damn central to the issue. Always been against the triple lock. At the time of new Labour increasing NI I doubt I was aware the retired were exempt, but was in favour of merging NI and tax for simplicity and transparency.

    Of course I don't agree with every policy over 25 years, but I don't think any of those governments would have planned over several years to get tens of thousands of lorry to leave the country, not invest in training new drivers to replace them in advance, cancel HGV tests whilst allowing Uber rides, not extend expiring licenses, have DVLA on strike, then invite the exiled lorry drivers back after we run out of fuel.

    There is a big difference between utter incompetence, and the government doing something I or others disagree with.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    Each household will not need to pay £400 that a ridiculous claim.

    Plus having increased their pay, they'll increase spending which will fuel other businesses and other

    Plus of course if you double their pay then approximately half of that will end up in the Exchequer anyway.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,350
    edited September 25

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
  • Listening on the radio, it sounds like Joshua has lost this.

    Guessing we're not getting the all British 4-belt unification fight afterall?
  • Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    What data are you expecting? We only had a few weeks post-Brexit before lockdown began.

    But the jobs market is reporting full employment and high wages.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    edited September 25
    Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jou, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    There have been multiple responses to your query demonstrating the increase in wages and indeed the pension was due to rise by 8% before Rishi knocked it on its head

    Best to agree to disagree as I believe you are wrong
  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
    So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

    Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

    Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?
    25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.
    So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

    Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

    Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

    And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.
    Oldies being richer and more numerous is pretty damn central to the issue. Always been against the triple lock. At the time of new Labour increasing NI I doubt I was aware the retired were exempt, but was in favour of merging NI and tax for simplicity and transparency.

    Of course I don't agree with every policy over 25 years, but I don't think any of those governments would have planned over several years to get tens of thousands of lorry to leave the country, not invest in training new drivers to replace them in advance, cancel HGV tests whilst allowing Uber rides, not extend expiring licenses, have DVLA on strike, then invite the exiled lorry drivers back after we run out of fuel.

    There is a big difference between utter incompetence, and the government doing something I or others disagree with.
    And there are no strawberries in the shops.

    Except there is.

    And ASDA has a 25% off six bottles of wine offer (not in Scotland).

    The world is not ending no matter how many tweets saying it is are pasted here.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,944

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,584
    After tonight's uncouth and appalling comments from Rayner at the Labour fringe in my mind she would be even worse than Corbyn, at least Corbyn had some manners.

    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1441859834605879299?s=20

    If she ever becomes Labour leader stick a fork in it, it will be done
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,863
    edited September 25

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
  • Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

    So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

    What's THAT position called in yoga?


    https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166
    It's called bolleaux, because the loosening of restrictions in a sector in demand are precisely in line with Brexit principles.

    But you know that.
    It is, and it's my least favourite part of Brexit. The government is a poor arbiter of what industry needs, and having government involved in setting quotas is going to lead to worse economic outcomes.
    It's really bad for the market to have the government insert itself in the process. And as ministers come and go, and governments change and change back again, agendas change. Some industries may be favoured one year and not the next. Is that going to encourage investment? It is not.
    You're right, a free market solution is a better solution.

    Having had some time to think of it I think we should say that anyone on a PAYE salary of £X or higher can very easily get a visa, which is conditional upon them remaining on PAYE above the £X threshold.

    Where £X is to be set at an MP's salary.

    If you want to bring in someone on PAYE that costs more than an MP then absolutely go ahead, that's the market threshold rate set. But if your job isn't worth at least that, then hire someone here paying whatever is required for the job.

    Still have migration through other routes for other reasons, but have that as a "free market" clearing rate.
    All you're doing there is linking two populist ideas together. That's not the free market, that's just making immigration policy into a Rube Goldberg machine. You sometimes say stuff that's brilliantly right and sometimes brilliantly wrong, but that little scheme, that's just madness speaking.
    Why's it mad?

    You can set a different £X if you want, yes its populist to link it with the MP's salary, but it is a free market clearing rate being set. If >£X then we grant a visa, if <£X then no visa, and therefore the market determines which jobs get the visa and which don't.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited September 25
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
  • In a Delta versus the unvaccinated update Bulgaria now has the UK equivalent of 50k in hospital with covid.

    https://coronavirus.bg/
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,793
    On topic. My belief, stated before, is that masks benefit in certain use cases and not others.

    Let's set 100 as the index value for giving yourself the maximum chance of catching COVID off another individual. That's not necessarily a 100% chance of catching it, merely the point beyond which if you were going to catch it you would have.

    A curve with a mask and a curve without track one another with an ellipsis in between - if you pass by someone for minute in a supermarket, the masked value could be 0.1 vs 0.12 unmasked - i.e. before the ellipsis opens. If you sit in a small closed room talking with someone for hours, the masked value could be 99.5 vs 99.9 unmasked - i.e. after the ellipsis closes.

    Sitting on crowded benches for an hour braying loudly at PMQs, that's somewhere in the middle of the open ellipsis, for arguments sake. 20 masked vs 40 unmasked.

    My numbers are demonstrative only, but an ellipsis is exactly the behaviour I'd expect to
    see at a qualitative level for this kind of comparison. And PMQs is exactly in the contract level range I'd expect to be the correct use case for masks.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,476

    Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.

    I'm somewhat baffled/amused by the breathless reports that Tesco offers a £1k signing on bonus for new HGV drivers.

    I mean a thousand quid, its not luxury cruise / deposit on a house sort of money is it.
    ? You often write from the viewpoint of a down-to-earth northerner with a scornful view of effete London intellectuals, but I know a LOT of people who would regard £1000 as a godsend.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,035

    Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

    Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

    UD Usyk.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541

    Listening on the radio, it sounds like Joshua has lost this.

    Guessing we're not getting the all British 4-belt unification fight afterall?

    We could always send out letters to all British former World Heavyweight Champions asking if they'd like a go.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas aren't anywhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and our infrastructure, could be in deep trouble.
    Mandy Rice-Davies Applies.

    They want a blank cheque to bring over cheap labour at minimal cost.

    The government would be better off saying 100,000 visas at PAYE of £100,000 each. If people can't find anyone willing to work at that price in the UK then absolutely bring as many as required in from abroad. But no more pissing around with £26,000 + £1,000 sign on bonus.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,018
    HYUFD said:

    After tonight's uncouth and appalling comments from Rayner at the Labour fringe in my mind she would be even worse than Corbyn, at least Corbyn had some manners.

    https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1441859834605879299?s=20

    If she ever becomes Labour leader stick a fork in it, it will be done

    What, you mean you wouldn't vote Labour if Rayner was leader? I'm shocked, I tell you.
  • darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

    For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

    What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

    That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

    For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

    I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post
    I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.
    It was LNER
    I humbly apologise.
    In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

    "If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."
    I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.
    i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
    Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
    Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.
    I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.
    My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

    Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

    Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'
    Don't come a-knockin' when the van is a-rockin'!

    AND all the best to the newlyweds!!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,217
    edited September 25
    TOPPING said:

    Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

    Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

    UD Usyk.
    Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,584
    Biden's net approval amongst black voters falls from +64% in mid August to +47% now.

    Amongst unvaccinated black voters it has plunged by 23% over the last month following the Covid 19 vaccine mandates.

    Amongst all voters Biden's net approval has also fallen from +5% to a net -2%

    https://twitter.com/MorningConsult/status/1441848227087753218?s=20

  • I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

    What's gone OK?
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our laws
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our money
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our borders
    Vaccines
    Taking back control of our courts

    And vaccines.
    On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
    On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
    On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

    If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.
    On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

    On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

    On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

    Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.
    Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.
    How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?
    Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.
    So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

    Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

    Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?
    25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.
    So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

    Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

    Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

    And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.
    Oldies being richer and more numerous is pretty damn central to the issue. Always been against the triple lock. At the time of new Labour increasing NI I doubt I was aware the retired were exempt, but was in favour of merging NI and tax for simplicity and transparency.

    Of course I don't agree with every policy over 25 years, but I don't think any of those governments would have planned over several years to get tens of thousands of lorry to leave the country, not invest in training new drivers to replace them in advance, cancel HGV tests whilst allowing Uber rides, not extend expiring licenses, have DVLA on strike, then invite the exiled lorry drivers back after we run out of fuel.

    There is a big difference between utter incompetence, and the government doing something I or others disagree with.
    And there are no strawberries in the shops.

    Except there is.

    And ASDA has a 25% off six bottles of wine offer (not in Scotland).

    The world is not ending no matter how many tweets saying it is are pasted here.
    I have never said the world is ending or anything about wine or strawberries?? I am saying this government is particularly incompetent compared to its predecessors.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,384
    Over on the Rail Forums, the consensus seems to be that the fuel panic is down to BP and the media whipping up a minor supply problem out of all proportion.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,035

    TOPPING said:

    Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

    Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

    UD Usyk.
    Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.
    My post today at 1.58pm.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,350

    Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    What data are you expecting? We only had a few weeks post-Brexit before lockdown began.

    But the jobs market is reporting full employment and high wages.
    My expectation is a little more limited than you think: I want people not to make up claims of facts just because it fits with what they want people to think. If we can't have honesty in political debates, where does that leave us?
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,668
    Oh. This might change things...


  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Why would all the money have to be found by Joe Public? Not all goods getting moved end up bought and paid for by Joe Public.

    UK GDP is £1.96 trillion per annum. Using your logic that is all goes to UK households, that's an average of £70,000 per household. I don't think the average household is on £70,000 do you?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,863
    edited September 25

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas aren't anywhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and our infrastructure, could be in deep trouble.
    Mandy Rice-Davies Applies.

    They want a blank cheque to bring over cheap labour at minimal cost.

    The government would be better off saying 100,000 visas at PAYE of £100,000 each. If people can't find anyone willing to work at that price in the UK then absolutely bring as many as required in from abroad. But no more pissing around with £26,000 + £1,000 sign on bonus.
    Their statements tonight, and from the various EU hauliers, seem to be more along the lines that many EU drivers just may not come. The government may become so desperate that they may even try some of the kind of wildly experimental inducements you're describing.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,541
    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.
This discussion has been closed.