Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Can anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

1234568

Comments

  • TOPPING said:

    Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

    Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

    UD Usyk.
    Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.
    I presume he'll be entitled to a rematch, again?

    Does seem a really weird system, boxing.
  • Oh. This might change things...


    There already has been suggestions that Rishi will address this in his budget and I expect he will
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas aren't anywhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and our infrastructure, could be in deep trouble.
    Mandy Rice-Davies Applies.

    They want a blank cheque to bring over cheap labour at minimal cost.

    The government would be better off saying 100,000 visas at PAYE of £100,000 each. If people can't find anyone willing to work at that price in the UK then absolutely bring as many as required in from abroad. But no more pissing around with £26,000 + £1,000 sign on bonus.
    Their statements tonight, and from the various EU hauliers, seem to be more along the lines that many EU drivers just may not come. The government may become so desperate that they may even try some of the kind of wildly experimental inducements you're describing.
    I'm amused how so many people find "supply and demand" and "pay the market rate" to be a wild experiment.
  • kle4 said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.
    There are a supprising number of people who hold HGV licences but who don't drive them commercialy. I worked for 5 years with a bloke with one, my current boss (till the end of next week, then I'm my own boss!) has one.

    In a previous era, they would have taken the odd casual shift at the current rates (apparently you can currently get £35-40 an hour for odd shifts right now), but (and this is one of the reasons for the current crisis) they don't hold the utterly pointless CPC, or have digital taco cards.

    The hassle and pointlessness of the CPC meant a lot of license holders who only drove occasionally didn't bother. Same with having to apply for a digital taco card, rather than just writing your name on a paper taco disk. So there is now a fairly large pool of people who still hold a HGV licenses, but who can't drive commercially.

    One of the easy wins for the government would be to bin the CPC requirement - I'm quite surprised they chose to abolish trailer tests for small vehicles as the first move instead (sensible, but unlikely to have much effect on the HGV crisis).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    I've had to drive/be driven to A&E twice in the last two weeks (don't ask. Horses.) Both times, a choice of drive yourself, or wait 3 hours for an ambulance. No fuel, no self drive option. Presiding over a fuel panic puts the government in breach of its primary duty to keep the citizens safe.
    You could ride there?
    Well, yes, but that’s on the problem, rather than solution, side of the equation.
    If you can’t ride there I’m not sure you should be driving
  • TOPPING said:

    Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

    Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

    UD Usyk.
    Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.
    I presume he'll be entitled to a rematch, again?

    Does seem a really weird system, boxing.
    Yes, rematch clause. So that's another 12 months, then same result again....

    In meantime, Fury beats up Wilder again. And then nobody to fight for another 18 months.
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    I am most certainly not one
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 43,927
    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    The government have definitely fucked up. The only question is how much.

    Johnson will have to go if he can't sort out this petrol problem pretty quickly.
    And there you have the reason so many Remainers - including a leader from OGH - have determinedly been making a crisis out of not even a molehill.....
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,270
    edited September 2021

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker, in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Or multiple letters to each license holder
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    Profiteering?
    Supply and demand.

    What's wrong with profiteering? If people are going to queue up to be idiots then let them pay through the nose for that.

    Maybe use that money raised to pay for extra supply runs next week for the people who aren't being idiots?

    I don't see why profiteering should be a dirty word in circumstances were people are queueing up throw their money at someone who is in business to make a profit!
    Because it damages client relationships and a business’s brand & reputation
  • Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.

    I'm somewhat baffled/amused by the breathless reports that Tesco offers a £1k signing on bonus for new HGV drivers.

    I mean a thousand quid, its not luxury cruise / deposit on a house sort of money is it.
    ? You often write from the viewpoint of a down-to-earth northerner with a scornful view of effete London intellectuals, but I know a LOT of people who would regard £1000 as a godsend.
    Sure as a windfall gain. But to take a really anti social job with terrible conditions, paid over several months?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population who are neither sick nor disabled is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    Stupendously tempting for a Bulgarian or Romanian, and stupendously tempting for a Brit, are too wildly different things.

    Which is something dodgy businesses have been able to exploit for years. Now they're terrified that's come to an end.

    Stuart Rose was right. Its time to pay a decent salary for a decent day's work.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    It is worldwide not just the EU but I assume the key will be the salary and bonuses
  • Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    I am most certainly not one
    Really?

    I'm a zillionaire even tho I am fully self made and not even 65 yet 👍
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2021
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

    If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

    And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

    There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not
    We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

    That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.
    Bollocks.

    There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.
    Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....
    Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.
    If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?
    I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

    A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

    Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

    Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.
    Profiteering?
    Supply and demand.

    What's wrong with profiteering? If people are going to queue up to be idiots then let them pay through the nose for that.

    Maybe use that money raised to pay for extra supply runs next week for the people who aren't being idiots?

    I don't see why profiteering should be a dirty word in circumstances were people are queueing up throw their money at someone who is in business to make a profit!
    Because it damages client relationships and a business’s brand & reputation
    If in response to idiots panic buying Shell or Tesco or anyone else were to come out and publicly said something like "in light of the extreme demand we are putting our prices up temporarily. We want to urge that there are no supply issues and the price will be back down on Tuesday" then I would be impressed not outraged by that.

    Its not like profiteering during a natural disaster. Its making morons pay for their own stupidity. Good. It also gives a financial incentive for people to stop and think "you know what, I don't need petrol afterall today. I'll get it next week instead"
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    It is worldwide not just the EU but I assume the key will be the salary and bonuses
    Did I mention the EU? No. You're obsessed, Big G, with the EU and Brexit.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,754
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
    Suggest you check out the definition of full employment. It varies, but most economists would agree it is at or near it now.

    PS. I was being sarky about the oldies. Although I should imagine there are plenty with HGV, so your government isn't.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    I doubt there is data yet given it was so recent (plus you may have heard about this pandemic thing).

    But there is plenty of anecdotal evidence - eg lorry drivers; in my industry we’ve just pushed through a 25% rise for mid ranking staff
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited September 2021

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas aren't anywhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and our infrastructure, could be in deep trouble.
    Mandy Rice-Davies Applies.

    They want a blank cheque to bring over cheap labour at minimal cost.

    The government would be better off saying 100,000 visas at PAYE of £100,000 each. If people can't find anyone willing to work at that price in the UK then absolutely bring as many as required in from abroad. But no more pissing around with £26,000 + £1,000 sign on bonus.
    Their statements tonight, and from the various EU hauliers, seem to be more along the lines that many EU drivers just may not come. The government may become so desperate that they may even try some of the kind of wildly experimental inducements you're describing.
    I'm amused how so many people find "supply and demand" and "pay the market rate" to be a wild experiment.
    The overall context is that leaving a single market and free movement area, built into the fabric of our infrastructure, and after a period of decades, could quite reasonably be described as wildly experimental, so that other policies need to catch up with that.
  • TOPPING said:

    Usyk too good.

    We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

    Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

    UD Usyk.
    Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.
    I presume he'll be entitled to a rematch, again?

    Does seem a really weird system, boxing.
    Yes, rematch clause. So that's another 12 months, then same result again....

    In meantime, Fury beats up Wilder again. And then nobody to fight for another 18 months.
    Joshua is really good. He's one of my favourites. But he's not a great fighter.

    Joshua v Fury is never going to happen unfortunately.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,345
    edited September 2021

    Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jou, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    There have been multiple responses to your query demonstrating the increase in wages and indeed the pension was due to rise by 8% before Rishi knocked it on its head

    Best to agree to disagree as I believe you are wrong
    You clearly didn't follow the conversation at all closely. Someone tried to say that "construction managers" are having a bit of a boom (anecdata, not low-wage as far as I can tell, cherry picking). Someone posted an excellent stats office article about compositional effects and how Covid furlough makes tracking average wages difficult (good article but doesn't help us towards an answer about low wages). There were a few vague and handwaving attempts to say that it stands to reason (many things stand to reason but never happen in real life).
    And now you've thrown Rishi's 8% onto the bonfire of scrutiny, where it will melt like all the rest: the 8% was due to unfurloughed staff returning back to something in the vague ballpark of normality. In other words, a Covid rebound from a drop. Nothing at all to do with Brexit and not even restricted to low-wage earners.

    So no, nothing at all was "demonstrated". Just pub economists and well-meant contributions off in a different area.
    The worst thing is you may well end up being right, but right now you are basically talking out of your arse guessing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Because we are likely to pay more than inEastern Europe so we are looking to export the problem
  • HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population who are neither sick nor disabled is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
    The oldies did not pay in NI all their working lives, that's just not true. Not at today's rates of NI.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,570
    Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    A strange thing is that lorry driver wages are a lot higher (ca €50 000 gross) in the Western part of the EU than they are in the UK. This means that membership of the EU didn't per se suppress wages in the UK but it does raise the question why Eastern European drivers previously came to the UK rather than other Western European countries.

    Early days but no sign from the ONS of real wage increases since Brexit. Wages have risen but this has been offset by increases in prices. Thread here: https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/1438435805484171267

    I guess this is Lump of Labour Fallacy kicking in from the off. (I was expecting a drag as companies try to stay in business by paying staff more)

    I suspect lorry driver wages will rise in the UK to meet Western European norms but the UK will still have a shortage of them in the medium term. Other sectors won't be so lucky.

    Fundamentally the issue is one of abysmal planning from this Brexiteer government. Arguable whether Brexit can be blamed directly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
    Suggest you check out the definition of full employment. It varies, but most economists would agree it is at or near it now.
    It isn't, 4% of the working age population who are neither sick nor disabled are not in work but seeking it. It would need to be near 0% of that group for there really to be full employment.

    Pensioners are generally excluded as the vast majority of them are not actively seeking work
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,660
    Good to see Europe showing. Bit of fight this evening. The American spectators are ghastly.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    Particularly if they had been told to eff off bare months ago.
    Otoh BJ will have much practice in wheedling his way back into the trust of people he’s shafted.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas aren't anywhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and our infrastructure, could be in deep trouble.
    Mandy Rice-Davies Applies.

    They want a blank cheque to bring over cheap labour at minimal cost.

    The government would be better off saying 100,000 visas at PAYE of £100,000 each. If people can't find anyone willing to work at that price in the UK then absolutely bring as many as required in from abroad. But no more pissing around with £26,000 + £1,000 sign on bonus.
    Their statements tonight, and from the various EU hauliers, seem to be more along the lines that many EU drivers just may not come. The government may become so desperate that they may even try some of the kind of wildly experimental inducements you're describing.
    I'm amused how so many people find "supply and demand" and "pay the market rate" to be a wild experiment.
    The overall context is that leaving a single market and free movement area, built into the fabric of our infrastructure, and after a period of decades, could quite reasonably be described as wildly experimental, so that other policies need to catch up with that.
    The context was "wildly experimental inducements".

    Was leaving Brexit an inducement? Paying the market rate is an inducement, but its neither wild nor experimental - its just something employer's haven't had to do for years as Rose knew so now they're shocked at what the market rate for certain jobs are.

    The people working those jobs are less shocked and are vindicated in how they voted though.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,497
    edited September 2021

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    It is worldwide not just the EU but I assume the key will be the salary and bonuses
    Did I mention the EU? No. You're obsessed, Big G, with the EU and Brexit.
    Not really

    Many would like to make people think this is an EU quota scheme when it is a worldwide one and Bulgaria is in the EU
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,909
    edited September 2021
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    These bloody young wokesters, seeing things in language that aren't there....i have used screeching and screaming when referring to a number of different politicians, male and female, on here.

    There were plenty of male screamers at the boxing that just finished.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker, in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    That's the other concerning aspect tonight. Some of the EU hauliers' bodies seem to be saying the drivers are going to be hard to persuade.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,345
    Charles said:

    Farooq said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
    You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
    So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.
    I doubt there is data yet given it was so recent (plus you may have heard about this pandemic thing).

    But there is plenty of anecdotal evidence - eg lorry drivers; in my industry we’ve just pushed through a 25% rise for mid ranking staff
    Data: yes, that seemed to be the consensus earlier.
    Anecdotal evidence: many of the claims that have been made have been about people whose wages I would not describe as "low". HGV wages were already above the UK national average.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 13,904
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it
    They will be close to retirement when they inherit!

    It used to be vote Tory, work hard and we will give you opportunity.

    Somehow that has morphed into, vote Tory, wait a long time for your parents to die.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    Considering @MikeSmithson has used people "screaming" in his thread headers before as a negative against them - I'm really failing to see how to make the leap to say its sexist: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/12/12/remember-that-iowa-the-first-state-to-decide-has-a-history-of-springing-surprises/

    Voters don't like screaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6i-gYRAwM0
  • dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
    Suggest you check out the definition of full employment. It varies, but most economists would agree it is at or near it now.

    PS. I was being sarky about the oldies. Although I should imagine there are plenty with HGV, so your government isn't.
    Speaking as an oldie who could have an HGV licence, you youngsters would be completely mad to let me loose on the road at the wheel of a large lorry. It would be carnage.

    And there's a serious point lurking in there; a risk to the government seeking quick solutions for a dangerous job.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
  • I won't be watching the Ryder Cup tomorrow. The hammering was always going to happen. But I still think we can get it back at home next time. 2022? Is it still scheduled for then??
  • Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Can't he just buy Jenrick's dinner?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,570

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker, in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    This isn't a serious government, unfortunately.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it
    Maybe we need a large tax on the inheritees (?) to help clear the deficit 👍
  • Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Golly, you’ll be saying the royals should stick to opening fetes next.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited September 2021
    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Like Carrie Symonds, perhaps ?
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Why? Howard Dean screamed.

    I think most people understand the difference between droning and screaming.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,548
    edited September 2021
    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    As many times as people say that sort of thing it never makes any more sense to me. You don't have to be an elected politician to propose or oppose political initiatives.

    Doing so will make him a political figure in turn, and that will come with attention and reaction that he may not particularly like, but there's not a solitary reason he, or anyone else, should not 'get involved in politics' if they want to. Farooq makes the point most concisely.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,345
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    As many times as people say that sort of thing it never makes any more sense to me. You don't have to be an elected politician to propose or oppose political initiatives.

    Doing so will make him a political figure in turn, and that will come with attention and reaction that he may not particularly like, but there's not a solitary reason he, or anyone else, should not 'get involved in politics' if they want to. Farooq makes the point most concisely.
    Can the mods please kick off everyone expressing a political view who isn't a sitting member of parliament.
    I, of course, am a Peer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 18,908



    Each household will not need to pay £400 that a ridiculous claim.

    Plus having increased their pay, they'll increase spending which will fuel other businesses and other

    Plus of course if you double their pay then approximately half of that will end up in the Exchequer anyway.

    So it we gave nurses 20% more, that'd be fine too, because they'd spend it and benefit jobs as well as pay more taxes? Why not 50% more, come to that?

    You've discovered that far-left magic money tree of which we used to hear so much.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,909
    edited September 2021

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,541
    edited September 2021
    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    He has a voice Charles. He is using it.

    Fuck you.

    Edit: treble fuck you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,548

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
    Suggest you check out the definition of full employment. It varies, but most economists would agree it is at or near it now.

    PS. I was being sarky about the oldies. Although I should imagine there are plenty with HGV, so your government isn't.
    Speaking as an oldie who could have an HGV licence, you youngsters would be completely mad to let me loose on the road at the wheel of a large lorry. It would be carnage.

    And there's a serious point lurking in there; a risk to the government seeking quick solutions for a dangerous job.
    Increased risk to seek a solution during an urgent problem is not inherently a poor trade.
  • Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Sometimes you're hilarious. By your criteria, HYUFD would have PB to himself I think. Oh, and Nick Palmer. Any others elected on here?

    And 'Fuck him' is not very gentlemanly, is it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860
    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    As many times as people say that sort of thing it never makes any more sense to me. You don't have to be an elected politician to propose or oppose political initiatives.

    Doing so will make him a political figure in turn, and that will come with attention and reaction that he may not particularly like, but there's not a solitary reason he, or anyone else, should not 'get involved in politics' if they want to. Farooq makes the point most concisely.
    Can the mods please kick off everyone expressing a political view who isn't a sitting member of parliament.
    I, of course, am a Peer.
    We have Nick Palmer ex MP, I don't think we have a current elected MP, though Aaron Bell was late of this parish
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2021

    dixiedean said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?
    None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

    The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.
    The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

    If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.
    Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

    If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.
    Stupendously tempting for a Bulgarian or Romanian, and stupendously tempting for a Brit, are too wildly different things.

    Which is something dodgy businesses have been able to exploit for years. Now they're terrified that's come to an end.

    Stuart Rose was right. Its time to pay a decent salary for a decent day's work.
    The equivalent hourly rate for working in the Uk at minimum Wage in 2014

    Bulgaria
    £47.18
    Romania
    £43.30
    Lithuania
    £28.10
    Latvia
    £25.49
    Czech
    £24.50
    Slovakia
    £24.41
    Hungary
    £24.31
    Estonia
    £23.15
    Poland
    £21.28
    Slovenia
    £10.82
  • kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    As many times as people say that sort of thing it never makes any more sense to me. You don't have to be an elected politician to propose or oppose political initiatives.

    Doing so will make him a political figure in turn, and that will come with attention and reaction that he may not particularly like, but there's not a solitary reason he, or anyone else, should not 'get involved in politics' if they want to. Farooq makes the point most concisely.
    It is said about those on the left, especially women and minorities, by those on the right. Particularly by those who complain loudest about cancel culture. Go figure!


  • Each household will not need to pay £400 that a ridiculous claim.

    Plus having increased their pay, they'll increase spending which will fuel other businesses and other

    Plus of course if you double their pay then approximately half of that will end up in the Exchequer anyway.

    So it we gave nurses 20% more, that'd be fine too, because they'd spend it and benefit jobs as well as pay more taxes? Why not 50% more, come to that?

    You've discovered that far-left magic money tree of which we used to hear so much.
    If we give nurses 20% more then that has to come from the taxpayer.

    If HGV drivers get more then that comes from whoever pays for goods to be shipped as part of the shipping costs. It doesn't come from taxpayers, or households, or however you want to artificially relate it back to people, except eventually perhaps in inflation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Sometimes you're hilarious. By your criteria, HYUFD would have PB to himself I think. Oh, and Nick Palmer. Any others elected on here?

    And 'Fuck him' is not very gentlemanly, is it?
    JohnO was a county councillor but I think lost his seat
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,498
    Greene's new campaign add...

    https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1439225130811539457?s=19

    Going for the @Dura_Ace vote, I suppose...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 13,486
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    💥EXCL: Keir Starmer vows to end private schools’ charity status raising £1.7bn to help poorer kids in state system - top interview with our ⁦@MirrorGemma⁩ https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816

    Red meat. Good.
    Red meat for mad, rabid, delusion dogs.

    That will bite him seriously in the arse. It is as incoherent as Corbyns "fully costed Manifesto" 4 page memo that was debunked within about 24 hours in 2017. With added political costs.

    1 - Independent schools provide hundreds of million of £££ of of support to local communities, local schools and pupils who would not otherwise make
    it every year. That accounts for a large chunk of the alleged savings.
    2 - Some marginal parents will not be able to afford it. Which drives them back into the state sector. At what cost? All the numbers I have seen make this a loss.
    3 - The independent sector is not just - as Starmer seems to think - Eton. It is diverse. I have a relative who was removed from state to independent for several years because the state system could not provide protection from the bullies and appropriate teaching and support. Starmer is attacking this diversirt because of political dogma, penning those victims straight back into the orbit of their bullies and their abusers.

    I suspect this is a policy based on imagined dogma and fantasy arithmetic, and that he is stirring up a political tidal wave that will cost him very dearly indeed.

    A very, very stupid idea.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860

    HYUFD said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it
    Maybe we need a large tax on the inheritees (?) to help clear the deficit 👍
    Theresa May tried just such a policy in 2017, it lost her her majority.

    Osborne's 2007 IHT cut plan however saw the Tories get a surge in the polls such that Brown cancelled his planned election.

    IHT is a very unpopular tax, anyway it is only paid by millionaires now for children of married couples after Osborne's cut


  • Each household will not need to pay £400 that a ridiculous claim.

    Plus having increased their pay, they'll increase spending which will fuel other businesses and other

    Plus of course if you double their pay then approximately half of that will end up in the Exchequer anyway.

    So it we gave nurses 20% more, that'd be fine too, because they'd spend it and benefit jobs as well as pay more taxes? Why not 50% more, come to that?

    You've discovered that far-left magic money tree of which we used to hear so much.
    If we give nurses 20% more then that has to come from the taxpayer.

    If HGV drivers get more then that comes from whoever pays for goods to be shipped as part of the shipping costs. It doesn't come from taxpayers, or households, or however you want to artificially relate it back to people, except eventually perhaps in inflation.
    Households don't pay for transport costs really is one of the weirdest arguments I have seen on here. Apparently from a trained economist who is not trolling.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,909
    edited September 2021

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    I am not going to search 65k posts, but it screeching / screaming is regular term i use on here, often in relation to say twitter reaction to something. And never been accused of sexism for doing so.

    Same as never been accused of racism, homophobia etc.

    And I don't think I have even mentioned Rayner very much at all. It was a very odd post from Mike.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 16,461
    edited September 2021
    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.
  • Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    As many times as people say that sort of thing it never makes any more sense to me. You don't have to be an elected politician to propose or oppose political initiatives.

    Doing so will make him a political figure in turn, and that will come with attention and reaction that he may not particularly like, but there's not a solitary reason he, or anyone else, should not 'get involved in politics' if they want to. Farooq makes the point most concisely.
    Can the mods please kick off everyone expressing a political view who isn't a sitting member of parliament.
    I, of course, am a Peer.
    I'm only a peer, does that count?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,345

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    As many times as people say that sort of thing it never makes any more sense to me. You don't have to be an elected politician to propose or oppose political initiatives.

    Doing so will make him a political figure in turn, and that will come with attention and reaction that he may not particularly like, but there's not a solitary reason he, or anyone else, should not 'get involved in politics' if they want to. Farooq makes the point most concisely.
    Can the mods please kick off everyone expressing a political view who isn't a sitting member of parliament.
    I, of course, am a Peer.
    I'm only a peer, does that count?
    I'm sorry, that doesn't hold water
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860
    edited September 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

    Sky

    Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

    Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

    Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

    One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

    One fucking million.

    You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

    All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

    You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.
    I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

    I had to wind it back to be sure
    From the FT

    "Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

    So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.
    Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced
    It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

    Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.
    I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages
    Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

    300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
    Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

    £15bn to be found by Joe Public.

    28m households in the UK

    That would be £530 average per household.

    Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

    The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.
    Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer
    Great, the retired will do well.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
    So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it
    They will be close to retirement when they inherit!

    It used to be vote Tory, work hard and we will give you opportunity.

    Somehow that has morphed into, vote Tory, wait a long time for your parents to die.
    The Tory party was the party of estates and inheritance and rural landowners in the 18th and 19th century long before it became the party of traders, professionals and investors in the 20th century, that used to be the Liberals and long before it became the party of the working class in 2019 too, that used to be the Labour Party.

    Plus some parents give their children money early to help with deposits to buy properties in their 20s and 30s
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,754
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

    We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population is unemployed.

    Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax
    Suggest you check out the definition of full employment. It varies, but most economists would agree it is at or near it now.
    It isn't, 4% of the working age population who are neither sick nor disabled are not in work but seeking it. It would need to be near 0% of that group for there really to be full employment.

    Pensioners are generally excluded as the vast majority of them are not actively seeking work
    Not in any functioning Western economy. If it were 0%, no vacancy would ever be filled. Nor would anyone ever be fired, or change jobs. No one would be able to retire, nor would an entire cohort of school leavers or graduates have a second to enjoy themselves, nor consider what they wanted to do with their lives. No full-time parent would ever re-enter the job market. Amongst other cases.
    Somewhere between 3% and 6% is considered full.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    No one will notice outside of the usual anoraks.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    I am not going to search 65k posts, but it screeching / screaming is regular term i use on here, often in relation to say twitter reaction to something. And never been accused of sexism for doing so.

    Same as never been accused of racism, homophobia etc.

    And I don't think I have even mentioned Rayner very much at all. It was a very odd post from Mike.
    Thought so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,548
    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    People have said worse things and risen to be PM, I am sure.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,754
    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Like those wealthy Tory donors do?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,548
    dixiedean said:

    Charles said:

    Oh. This might change things...


    Fuck him.

    A charitable campaign is one thing.

    If he wants to get involved in politics he should get himself elected
    Like those wealthy Tory donors do?
    Totally different - no need to shout things in a newspaper headline when you can whisper it into a Minister's ear.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,909
    edited September 2021

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    I am not going to search 65k posts, but it screeching / screaming is regular term i use on here, often in relation to say twitter reaction to something. And never been accused of sexism for doing so.

    Same as never been accused of racism, homophobia etc.

    And I don't think I have even mentioned Rayner very much at all. It was a very odd post from Mike.
    Thought so.
    Don't be a dick.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited September 2021
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    💥EXCL: Keir Starmer vows to end private schools’ charity status raising £1.7bn to help poorer kids in state system - top interview with our ⁦@MirrorGemma⁩ https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-vows-tax-private-25072816

    Red meat. Good.
    Red meat for mad, rabid, delusion dogs.

    That will bite him seriously in the arse. It is as incoherent as Corbyns "fully costed Manifesto" 4 page memo that was debunked within about 24 hours in 2017. With added political costs.

    1 - Independent schools provide hundreds of million of £££ of of support to local communities, local schools and pupils who would not otherwise make
    it every year. That accounts for a large chunk of the alleged savings.
    2 - Some marginal parents will not be able to afford it. Which drives them back into the state sector. At what cost? All the numbers I have seen make this a loss.
    3 - The independent sector is not just - as Starmer seems to think - Eton. It is diverse. I have a relative who was removed from state to independent for several years because the state system could not provide protection from the bullies and appropriate teaching and support. Starmer is attacking this diversirt because of political dogma, penning those victims straight back into the orbit of their bullies and their abusers.

    I suspect this is a policy based on imagined dogma and fantasy arithmetic, and that he is stirring up a political tidal wave that will cost him very dearly indeed.

    A very, very stupid idea.
    I actually agree with parts of this. Removing the assisted places scheme in the late '90s achieved simiarly little, and was actually socially counter-productive. It reminds me of some of New Labour's most mediocre moments of gesture politics, which it used to cover a lack of radicalism in some other areas in its first term, and to sell what was actually a fairly technocratic agenda to its members.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Correct. The ordinary 'middle of the road' punters will say LOL to her.

    Keir is trying hard and appears to have got through some sensible changes to LAB leadership rules today. But the electorate look beyond the leader to the broader team. Good luck with that Labour.
  • tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    Lord Sutch
    Very good - kudos.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    That eagles fellow seems to get the worst of it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,860

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 4,270
    edited September 2021

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    I am not going to search 65k posts, but it screeching / screaming is regular term i use on here, often in relation to say twitter reaction to something. And never been accused of sexism for doing so.

    Same as never been accused of racism, homophobia etc.

    And I don't think I have even mentioned Rayner very much at all. It was a very odd post from Mike.
    Thought so.
    Don't be a dick.
    Fair enough - I'm male, after all. But I'd have a wager that you'll avoid referring to female politicians as 'screaming' after this discussion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,213
    .

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    I am not going to search 65k posts, but it screeching / screaming is regular term i use on here, often in relation to say twitter reaction to something. And never been accused of sexism for doing so.

    Same as never been accused of racism, homophobia etc.

    And I don't think I have even mentioned Rayner very much at all. It was a very odd post from Mike.
    Thought so.
    The only post I could find when FrancisUrquhart used the phrase "scream" regarding a politician was one in 2015, about Ed Miliband.
  • HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
    What about Bob Dylan? 😆
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,640
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
    Who is Bob Dillon?
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

    "Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

    Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…
    She's just lost my vote.
    She’s trying to win it back:

    BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

    https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789
    Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.
    You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

    Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.
    Gordon Brown waves....

    I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.
    The use of screaming was the only one I could think of and that’s pretty marginal
    I assumed Mike was referring to 'screaming'. Starmer drones. Corbyn meanders. But Rayner screams. Could well be seen as sexist.
    Just absolute nonsense. If I only used it in relation to females on here, perhaps there might be some tiny merit, in the way back in the day Tim used to only use certain language in relation to female posters.

    But i don't, i used it across sexes and parties, usually relating to when politicians and parties just rant nonsense.

    It was totally uncalled for and inaccurate post from Mike.
    Fair enough, so which male politicians have you accused of "screaming"?
    I am not going to search 65k posts, but it screeching / screaming is regular term i use on here, often in relation to say twitter reaction to something. And never been accused of sexism for doing so.

    Same as never been accused of racism, homophobia etc.

    And I don't think I have even mentioned Rayner very much at all. It was a very odd post from Mike.
    Searching for the word scream bring up 134 pages of results.

    Its not an unheard of term.
  • Jonathan said:


    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
    Who is Bob Dillon?
    There has to be a tribute act called that....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,754
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
    That is a wildly inventive simile. Chapeau.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 22,660
    Probably won’t matter, but brilliant from Lowry this afternoon.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 7,968
    edited September 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
    So DLG was NOT criticized for his verbiage at Limehouse? IIRC plenty of adverse comment at the time, along same lines as expressed by our Andy.

    BTW it's Bob Dylan, changed from Zimmerman in honor of Dylan Thomas (also infamous for his "bad" language)

    EDIT - is Mr Bloby another known for political invective?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 70,909
    edited September 2021
    I would imagine if Labour banned charitable status of private schools, the unintended consequence will be that the charitable work and facility sharing they currently do will be the first thing to go.

    And all that would happen is fees up, more rich foreign students, meaning more British kids needing state education and costing the taxpayer more.

    So the £1.7bn quickly becomes a hell of a lot less than that.

    It seems like one of those things like private health care, even if you are idealogically against, removing it is far from cost free.

    To me seems like lot more important things to worry about. Put taxes up on the rich if you want the money for state education.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,754

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Angela Rayner isn't going to be prime minister after her comments tonight. She may have won support from the left of the Labour Party but swing voters won't take her seriously.

    Isn't that what they said about David Lloyd George re: his Limehouse speech?
    Comparing Angela Rayner to Lloyd George is like comparing Mr Blobby to Bob Dillon
    So DLG was NOT criticized for his verbiage at Limehouse? IIRC plenty of adverse comment at the time, along same lines as expressed by our Andy.

    BTW it's Bob Dylan, changed from Zimmerman in honor of Dylan Thomas (also infamous for his "bad" language)
    Pedant hat on. @HYUFD is correct. Bob Dillon was one of the pseudonyms he went under before settling on Dylan. Blind Boy Grunt and Elston Gunn being two more. He produces under the name Jack Frost right now.

    https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2010/12/did-rock-legend-bob-dylan-steal-his-name-from-packers-legend-bob-dillion/


  • Each household will not need to pay £400 that a ridiculous claim.

    Plus having increased their pay, they'll increase spending which will fuel other businesses and other

    Plus of course if you double their pay then approximately half of that will end up in the Exchequer anyway.

    So it we gave nurses 20% more, that'd be fine too, because they'd spend it and benefit jobs as well as pay more taxes? Why not 50% more, come to that?

    You've discovered that far-left magic money tree of which we used to hear so much.
    If we give nurses 20% more then that has to come from the taxpayer.

    If HGV drivers get more then that comes from whoever pays for goods to be shipped as part of the shipping costs. It doesn't come from taxpayers, or households, or however you want to artificially relate it back to people, except eventually perhaps in inflation.
    Households don't pay for transport costs really is one of the weirdest arguments I have seen on here. Apparently from a trained economist who is not trolling.
    Indirectly absolutely it will be a part of inflation. But you're acting as if 100% of economic activity and economic costs ends up in the hands of households.

    UK GDP is £2 trillion
    UK households ~28mn
    Do the maths like you're doing and that means household income of £70,000.

    The actual median household income in the UK: £29,900

    You need to compare like for like, you can't just artificially assign everything in the UK to households as that's not how the economy works!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,053
    Foxy said:

    Greene's new campaign add...

    https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1439225130811539457?s=19

    Going for the @Dura_Ace vote, I suppose...

    I doubt it given how she handled that gun. Shes lucky she didn’t break her jaw
This discussion has been closed.