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Stand by for a big announcement at 10pm – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,188
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    BBC wittering on about the reshuffle. Truly bizarre. Completely lost the place.

    And people claim we need to pay for the BBC because its a public service broadcaster - and they've missed this? What a joke.
    That is an absolute joke. ITV too. Sky are the only ones running it. Nuclear subs in Aussie waters, a fairly big story…
    Nuclear powered, not nuclear armed. Though I imagine they may be able to carry Trident missiles in the future.
    No, that would be a very different design. At most they could perhaps manage a few nuclear cruise missiles.
    The first Polaris subs were actually cut-and-shut attack subs. One was literally cut in half on the building slip, the two ends pulled apart and the missile compartment added in.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_George_Washington_(SSBN-598)

    The next generation US/UK attack subs are larger - to help accommodate their natural convection reactors, which require more height. This would make such a conversion even easier.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,502

    Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Hmmm.. can’t see why AUUKUS would just “go away”. Strategically important I think
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,038
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Biden forgot ScoMo’s name?

    I think that was a joke tbh. President Biden appears to be taking this less seriously than the other two.

    .
    I assumed it was a folksy joke.
    No, I'm sorry, I've got senile relatives (sadly). And that was pure senility

    He simply forgot. Classic. So you stumble on a replacement - "that fella down under"
    Says that fella with the flint...
  • They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Whatever you say...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592

    Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Looks to me like Scotty wanted a bit of face saving as his deal with the French over subs became unaffordable, mostly over costs of building in Australia.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    Quite rigid for the News Channel not to break from the 10 o'clock news for it, but I wouldn't have led BBC1 with that.

    Just on the news now.
    It was a rare live tripartite address by the leaders of UK US and Australia and they decide not to feed it live

    At least Sky did
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,826
    edited September 15
    geoffw said:

    Now on BBC 10pm news

    What is now on BBC News? I switched it on about 5 minutes ago.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Grow a dick. We're all fucked unless we stand up to and contain China.

    Entirely necessary and the right thing to do for the future of humanity, and you're a naïve idiot if you disagree.
  • Good. There never should have been two consecutive U's there.

    Just like CANZUK if you can merge two names into one sharing a vowel then you do.
  • BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,502

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Whatever you say...
    Presumably we’ll just keep waiting for the EU to develop a common foreign policy then.

    And whilst it does that, it can continue to pipe Russian gas into the continent
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
  • Leon said:


    Shashank Joshi
    @shashj
    ·
    1m
    Our piece on AUKUS, which the British government refers to as a "new defence alliance". The agreement, originally proposed by Australia, will be signed in Washington next week, presumably during
    @ScottMorrisonMP
    's visit to Washington between Sep 21-24.


    An Aussie proposal, interestingly. But suits US and UK


    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1438250834777841666?s=20

    Explains why ScoMo was introducing it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859
    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    Size and capability, plus they don't need to refuel.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    Loiter anywhere, for months at a time…
    Maybe close to China.
  • Foxy said:

    Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Looks to me like Scotty wanted a bit of face saving as his deal with the French over subs became unaffordable, mostly over costs of building in Australia.
    Yes, that's my take. Boris was just along for the ride.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055

    Leon said:

    The exclusion of Canada seems deliberate

    Yes but in what sense? If it is just an announcement that Australia will be buying British and American submarines, why would Canada be involved? Biden and Morrison were both at pains to mention that existing partnerships would be honoured.
    This felt more momentous. This is a merging of virtually all defence, intel and AI capabilities, to fend off China
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,553
    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    Keep going without refuelling for a very long time.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    That was my interpretation too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    They'll be very similar to these I imagine:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,737
    edited September 15

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No. The submarines' engines will be nuclear-powered. They will not be armed with nuclear missiles.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    1m
    STAR: Clowning Street Massacre #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No. No nuclear weapons was emphasised by Johnson and Biden.
  • Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No.

    Nuclear powered submarine, so the submarine can be underwater anywhere in the Pacific for months without needing to surface or refuel.

    Actually probably much more useful and practical than nuclear weapons are which are just deterrents.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,827
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The exclusion of Canada seems deliberate

    Yes but in what sense? If it is just an announcement that Australia will be buying British and American submarines, why would Canada be involved? Biden and Morrison were both at pains to mention that existing partnerships would be honoured.
    This felt more momentous. This is a merging of virtually all defence, intel and AI capabilities, to fend off China
    It’s only momentous if Japan and India follow.
  • Cookie said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    What would your approach to China be?
    Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?

    They’re fucking mad.

    China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
  • Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No, but in a sense this is more important. Australia is definitively joining an anti-Chinese military pact. That is the one and only role for AUKUS. Given the reliance of the Australian economy on Chinese trade, that is brave, if not ambitious (and too much to expect from NZ)

    This is big.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,264
    Absolutely brilliant on here today.
    It's because Ardern has China's fist up New Zealand's bum! No, it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's aliens! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's a triumph for Brexit! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's the end of Trudeau! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.

    Oh, it's nuclear subs for Australia.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,188

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Whatever you say...
    The reason that both the UK and the US are involved in the submarine deal is probably because of the interlinking of the US and UK submarine programs at technical level.

    The Americans shared natural convection reactor designs with us, for example, and we shared pump jet propulsor design with them (another example). The two together are the key to building a fast, silent nuke sub. There might well be agreements meaning that sharing the technologies with a third party would require agreement from the originators - so UK tech would require UK approval and US tech, US approval.
  • Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Apparently a meeting with Boris - Biden - Morrison and the leaders of Japan and India is due in the US shortly

    I am sure you are not so naive to think this will not be heard about again
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    Loiter anywhere, for months at a time…
    Maybe close to China.

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No, not at all. Definitely not, because if that were true there would be chaos.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,826
    edited September 15

    Cookie said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    What would your approach to China be?
    Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?

    They’re fucking mad.

    China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
    I disagree. We can't just let them do whatever they want.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    Foxy said:

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No. No nuclear weapons was emphasised by Johnson and Biden.
    Hmmm. In that case what is the threat in the event of Taiwan or Australia being invaded?
  • They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
    Why is it nonsense
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The exclusion of Canada seems deliberate

    Yes but in what sense? If it is just an announcement that Australia will be buying British and American submarines, why would Canada be involved? Biden and Morrison were both at pains to mention that existing partnerships would be honoured.
    This felt more momentous. This is a merging of virtually all defence, intel and AI capabilities, to fend off China
    There was something about AI and Cyber that was aimed at China but mainly it's an arms sale to Australia.

    Not even that actually. They announced an 18-month negotiation of an arms sale.
  • Foxy said:

    Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Looks to me like Scotty wanted a bit of face saving as his deal with the French over subs became unaffordable, mostly over costs of building in Australia.
    Yes, that's my take. Boris was just along for the ride.
    Actually, I'll revise that. There'll doubtless be a huge backlash in AUS about becoming a mere US dominion. Boris's presence might provide some counterweight to that, though it isn't great - many will see it as a former colonial master trying to muscle in with a potential new one.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,827
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    What would your approach to China be?
    Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?

    They’re fucking mad.

    China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
    Defeatist gibberish. China will be the biggest economy - for a while - but that absolutely DOES NOT mean they will be the hegemonic or dominant power, not if the democratic West unites (and loops in real or potential allies like S Korea, India, Japan). AUKUS is the first attempt to do that, it will be the core of the strategy

    China can be contained, and peace will then be maintained. A kind of Cold War with free trade. That's what we want, it is the best we can hope for. This is the beginning
    Yes. The optimist in me says the fight back starts here. But it’s just the first step.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893

    Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
    Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
  • Farooq said:

    Absolutely brilliant on here today.
    It's because Ardern has China's fist up New Zealand's bum! No, it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's aliens! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's a triumph for Brexit! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's the end of Trudeau! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.

    Oh, it's nuclear subs for Australia.

    The first and fourth are relevant. If it weren't for Trudeau and Ardern this could have been a Five Eyes arrangement.

    The third is only being dragged in by Remoaners complaining about us being ripped out of Europe. Which is odd, remind me what Europe's defence policy is please?
  • MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650
    Taiwan might be breathing less rapidly now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    It's hilarious how some people still see the EU as more important than standing up to a repressive authoritarian regime that's committing genocide, "disappears" its own dissidents and wants to export its restrictions on free thought and speech worldwide all because they lost a referendum five years ago.

    Utterly contemptible.
    And which leaked a lethal pandemic on the world two years ago, a pandemic which has killed 10 million and will kill millions more, and which has decimated the world economy, and then covered up its probable origins in a dodgy lab, so we will never know for sure

    That is China. Yet still they wibble on about Brexit
  • Foxy said:

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No. No nuclear weapons was emphasised by Johnson and Biden.
    Hmmm. In that case what is the threat in the event of Taiwan or Australia being invaded?
    That's one of those questions its best never to answer. The entire point is to keep them second-guessing.
  • Foxy said:

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No. No nuclear weapons was emphasised by Johnson and Biden.
    Hmmm. In that case what is the threat in the event of Taiwan or Australia being invaded?
    That large chunks of the invasion fleet wouldn’t be going home…
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859

    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    They'll be very similar to these I imagine:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine
    I wonder whether they'll go for something more like the dreadnought class, you know just in case they want to borrow a trident missile or two.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    Leon said:

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No, but in a sense this is more important. Australia is definitively joining an anti-Chinese military pact. That is the one and only role for AUKUS. Given the reliance of the Australian economy on Chinese trade, that is brave, if not ambitious (and too much to expect from NZ)

    This is big.
    Not as big as if the alien invasion had been announced.
  • Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    If nuclear powered but not nuclear armed, it can stay submerged indefinitely and so be very difficult to detect. One of those showing up in the middle of a fleet can really ruin someone’s day, as the General Belgrano found out.
    As the Americans noted when a Chinese submarine surfaced next to one of their carriers recently.

    And even in ww2, it was U-boat SOP to infiltrate convoys before sinking allied ships.
  • AI is where the world should be scared of the Chinese....
  • Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Apparently a meeting with Boris - Biden - Morrison and the leaders of Japan and India is due in the US shortly

    I am sure you are not so naive to think this will not be heard about again
    I suspect Joe's forgotten about it already.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055

    AI is where the world should be scared of the Chinese....

    Yes, GPT5 without Woke nonsense to rein it in. Fucking scary
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364


    Grow a dick. We're all fucked unless we stand up to and contain China.

    Entirely necessary and the right thing to do for the future of humanity, and you're a naïve idiot if you disagree.

    "Stand up to and contain" China?

    Okay - they're winning the economic war hands down it would seem - is any part of this standing up and containing process going to involve challenging China economically and environmentally (I presume if China can't get its coal from Australia, one of its African surrogates will provide).

    How do we compete with China in Africa for example? What can we provide they can't?

    Do we see the PLA marching across the steppes or sweeping into the Pacific - if so, shouldn't part of the containment process involve Russia and India who both share extensive borders with China or is our focus purely on the Pacific (Japan, South Korea?).

    What of North Korea and its ballistic missile capability (another country with whom China shares a border coincidentally)?

    I'm not disputing the fact China is emerging (or re-emerging) as a significant global power - at least economically. The military dimension - inasmuch as the nature of warfare is moving away to other spheres and other weapons than the old-fashioned tanks, guns and ships to cyber space and, whisper it quietly perhaps, biological warfare (sorry, can't get @Leon excited at this time of evening) - is less clear.

    Are we offering any kind of guarantee to Vietnam (another country bordering China) or the Philippines?

    Perhaps we should be looking to re-activate SEATO or something similar - I don't know.

    I sense "standing up to and containing", while an easy soundbite, needs a lot more thought and coherence to get close to an actual policy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,480

    Cookie said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    What would your approach to China be?
    Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?

    They’re fucking mad.

    China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
    Just because China may end up the largest economy does not mean that as a Communist Party dictatorship still we should stand idly by and watch it threaten to invade Taiwan and then move on to Japan, S Korea etc. Supplying Australia with nuclear power submarines to help it join US, British, French and Japanese ships in patrolling the South China seas and warding off any overtly aggressive actions from Beijing is to be welcomed

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,188

    Foxy said:

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No. No nuclear weapons was emphasised by Johnson and Biden.
    Hmmm. In that case what is the threat in the event of Taiwan or Australia being invaded?
    Australia can't be invaded if they have submarines wandering around, being rude to the invasion force.

    Mind you, all the places you could invade, are miles from anywhere you'd actually want to be.

    Taiwan strait is an interesting case - an invasion force would be a perfect target for sub launched anti-ship missiles.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775
    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    Shadow Chinese carriers, cut undersea cables, deploy special forces, launch cruise missiles, launch UAVs and UUVs, collect signals; quite a lot really.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,827

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    Were you less parochial, you might have known that Taiwan is a simply fabulous country. And yes, it is a country.
  • moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The exclusion of Canada seems deliberate

    Yes but in what sense? If it is just an announcement that Australia will be buying British and American submarines, why would Canada be involved? Biden and Morrison were both at pains to mention that existing partnerships would be honoured.
    This felt more momentous. This is a merging of virtually all defence, intel and AI capabilities, to fend off China
    It’s only momentous if Japan and India follow.
    Wouldn't surprise me in the least if they did. Very welcome too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    But we ARE in this war. It is a Cold War for now, but it is a war. Do you think Britain can somehow hide from the clear and present menace of China? We cannot
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    You're an appeaser, and a bit of a coward.

    I have nothing but contempt for your views.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
    Why is it nonsense
    You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.

    Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,480
    Leon said:

    Could damage Trudeau?

    "Canada left out again... Do our allies just not trust Trudeau?"

    https://twitter.com/erinotoole/status/1438238781858095107?s=20

    Canada is closer to Russia than China, it is more important to keep Canada as part of plans to contain Putin as part of its NATO membership
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,188
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What can a non nuclear nuclear sub actually do ?

    They'll be very similar to these I imagine:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute-class_submarine
    I wonder whether they'll go for something more like the dreadnought class, you know just in case they want to borrow a trident missile or two.
    Bit of cut-'n-shut mate, bit of bondo and paint, you'll never tell......

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_George_Washington_(SSBN-598)
  • MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    You're an appeaser, and a bit of a coward.

    I have nothing but contempt for your views.
    Forty years ago he'd have said the same thing about the USSR.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,502

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    So your solution is to.. do nothing? Considering how dominant and reliant we’ve the west has become on China in recent decades, that is a tad naive
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592

    Foxy said:

    Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.

    Looks to me like Scotty wanted a bit of face saving as his deal with the French over subs became unaffordable, mostly over costs of building in Australia.
    Yes, that's my take. Boris was just along for the ride.
    Actually, I'll revise that. There'll doubtless be a huge backlash in AUS about becoming a mere US dominion. Boris's presence might provide some counterweight to that, though it isn't great - many will see it as a former colonial master trying to muscle in with a potential new one.
    No. Since the fall of Singapore, and the Battle of the Coral Sea, Australia has known that the only country that can protect it is the USA. That is why the Aussies were in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Notably we skipped Vietnam, much to the Americans annoyance.

    What does it matter to the UK? Possibly some export sales, though nothing very soon. More importantly it is to curry favour with Scotty in the run up to other deals.
  • They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    It's hilarious how some people still see the EU as more important than standing up to a repressive authoritarian regime that's committing genocide, "disappears" its own dissidents and wants to export its restrictions on free thought and speech worldwide all because they lost a referendum five years ago.

    Utterly contemptible.
    To be honest I think there is sheer horror in those who are pro EU as the UK moves onto the world stage with trade deals across the Pacific and the US now firmly in the grasp of the UK government
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,264

    Farooq said:

    Absolutely brilliant on here today.
    It's because Ardern has China's fist up New Zealand's bum! No, it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's aliens! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's a triumph for Brexit! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.
    It's the end of Trudeau! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.

    Oh, it's nuclear subs for Australia.

    The first and fourth are relevant. If it weren't for Trudeau and Ardern this could have been a Five Eyes arrangement.

    The third is only being dragged in by Remoaners complaining about us being ripped out of Europe. Which is odd, remind me what Europe's defence policy is please?
    Ok, we can add
    This is why Brexit is terrible! No it's nuclear subs for Australia.

    Such an outpouring of directionless froth from all sides tonight. Very strange to see.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775
    DavidL said:

    The level of multiculturalism in this Cabinet is way beyond anything we have ever seen. Chancellor, Home Sec, Health Sec, Business Sec, Education Sec. Its really remarkable but people still witter on about newspaper articles decades ago. Labour front bench is incredibly white by comparison.

    True, but still better than the Nats.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,782

    Pro_Rata said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    Quite rigid for the News Channel not to break from the 10 o'clock news for it, but I wouldn't have led BBC1 with that.

    Just on the news now.
    It was a rare live tripartite address by the leaders of UK US and Australia and they decide not to feed it live

    At least Sky did
    You're expecting deference to the occasion rather than consideration of whether the substance of the announcement, which had been trailed, deserved to lead the news.

    I think the BBC called it right not to run the live feed on BBC1, but what it does deserve is good analysis - I'll reserve judgement on that.

    The pre-emptive kicking from the usual suspects feels mostly like so many tiny little doctors' hammers coming down on so many knees.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,859
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    But we ARE in this war. It is a Cold War for now, but it is a war. Do you think Britain can somehow hide from the clear and present menace of China? We cannot
    It's been clear that we've been in a cold war for over a decade with only one side actually fighting. Now we've got appeasers on our own side complaining that we're finally mobilising and fighting back. We defeated the Soviets and Chinese are no different.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,827
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    But we ARE in this war. It is a Cold War for now, but it is a war. Do you think Britain can somehow hide from the clear and present menace of China? We cannot
    I have been pulling my hair out for years because Western policy makers refused to acknowledge they were an unwilling protagonist in a new Cold War. So relieved they’ve woken up to it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    DavidL said:

    The level of multiculturalism in this Cabinet is way beyond anything we have ever seen. Chancellor, Home Sec, Health Sec, Business Sec, Education Sec. Its really remarkable but people still witter on about newspaper articles decades ago. Labour front bench is incredibly white by comparison.

    Annoyingly good point.
  • Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
    Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
    That's ridiculous.

    How often does the Prime Minister give a joint press conference with the President of the United States of America?

    If those two are giving a joint press conference, that's what the news should be covering live.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893

    Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
    Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
    That's ridiculous.

    How often does the Prime Minister give a joint press conference with the President of the United States of America?

    If those two are giving a joint press conference, that's what the news should be covering live.
    FFS If it's that important why did Johnson pick the same day for his re-shuffle?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733

    Cookie said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    What would your approach to China be?
    Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?

    They’re fucking mad.

    China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
    If we do nothing and China become the dominant global power your freedoms go too. Pouf. Gone. They will use a mixture of money and threats to control your life, and the world then slips into a dark new authoritarian age.

    Wake up.
    And having spent the last 25 years trading exclusively with China, exporting our manufacturing jobs and filling their banks with USD, Euros and UK pounds, in order to keep western inflation down, the penny has finally dropped.

    A bit late for your big boy bravery now isn't it?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese

    And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
  • Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
    Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
    That's ridiculous.

    How often does the Prime Minister give a joint press conference with the President of the United States of America?

    If those two are giving a joint press conference, that's what the news should be covering live.
    FFS If it's that important why did Johnson pick the same day for his re-shuffle?
    That was hours ago and was covered already and can be covered again after the press conference.

    I can't recall the BBC ever not covering a joint press conference between the POTUS and PM before.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,434
    edited September 15
    Leon said:

    Could damage Trudeau?

    "Canada left out again... Do our allies just not trust Trudeau?"

    https://twitter.com/erinotoole/status/1438238781858095107?s=20

    Doubt it. You're a wavering voter and you hear that a deal to sell Australia some non-nuclear armed nuclear-powered subs has been agreed, and Canada's not involved. Does that decide your vote? Unlikely.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592
    edited September 15

    MaxPB said:

    They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
    They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
    What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.

    I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.

    It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
    So your solution is to.. do nothing? Considering how dominant and reliant we’ve the west has become on China in recent decades, that is a tad naive
    No, it is a matter of practicality. We have armed forces that couldn't hold a single province of Afghanistan, and who left Basra with tails between our legs when the Yanks rescued them. We have no bases in the region of China.

    Our contribution to any war, hot or cold, against China will be insignificant.
  • Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
    Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
    That's ridiculous.

    How often does the Prime Minister give a joint press conference with the President of the United States of America?

    If those two are giving a joint press conference, that's what the news should be covering live.
    FFS If it's that important why did Johnson pick the same day for his re-shuffle?
    Perhaps they only dragged Boris into it late this afternoon - the brief boilerplate he spouted certainly gave that impression.
  • gealbhan said:

    Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese

    And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️

    Not a chance, they've seen what has happened to Hong Kong.

    Creative ambiguity suits them best too.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,264

    Foxy said:

    BBC are shocking not covering this live

    They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
    No excuse whatsoever
    No need to cover it live until the content was known.
    Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
    Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
    That's ridiculous.

    How often does the Prime Minister give a joint press conference with the President of the United States of America?

    If those two are giving a joint press conference, that's what the news should be covering live.
    You need to separate the uniqueness of the staging (I don't remember anything like it) from the importance of the announcement (pretty technical, unimportant for most people's everyday's lives). It's generated a lot of heat, but your life will be the same tomorrow and next year.

    I said it hours ago, and I'm even more certain now, this was a presser for Beijing's consumption more than for ours.
  • Liverpool

    Absolutely delighted on my return to the cathedral of football that is Anfield.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650
    gealbhan said:

    Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese


    You think?

  • They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?

    The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal

    Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
    Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
    Why is it nonsense
    You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.

    Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
    Does he support this tripartite deal to provide nuclear powered subs to Australia

    I am sure the left and the Greens will be furious
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,534

    Leon said:

    Have I got this right? Australia just became a nuclear power?

    No, but in a sense this is more important. Australia is definitively joining an anti-Chinese military pact. That is the one and only role for AUKUS. Given the reliance of the Australian economy on Chinese trade, that is brave, if not ambitious (and too much to expect from NZ)

    This is big.
    Not as big as if the alien invasion had been announced.
    sadly
  • This new UK/US/Oz alliance.

    Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
This discussion has been closed.