They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
What would your approach to China be?
Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?
They’re fucking mad.
China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
If we do nothing and China become the dominant global power your freedoms go too. Pouf. Gone. They will use a mixture of money and threats to control your life, and the world then slips into a dark new authoritarian age.
Wake up.
And having spent the last 25 years trading exclusively with China, exporting our manufacturing jobs and filling their banks with USD, Euros and UK pounds, in order to keep western inflation down, the penny has finally dropped.
A bit late for your big boy bravery now isn't it?
Lol. So your argument is that we're a bit late to the party.
Erh, yeah. We should have been doing this five years ago - I agree. Some of us were saying this, including me, ever since the umbrella protests in Hong Kong. However, this is a bit of a difficult argument for you to pull off since morons like you were accusing us of sabre-rattling then too.
Put your fingers in your ears and hide under your bed if it makes you feel better but otherwise please do shut-up and leave foreign policy to the grown ups
When did this moron accuse you of sabre rattling? I am in agreement that China poses a grave threat to our way of life. All I am saying is it was us that created the monster and now we are pretty much impotent to their economic dominance and firepower. A nuclear deterrent by all means, but even big hard hawks like you are toast if we tried to use them.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Taiwan needs to be turned into a multi-layered defensive booby-trapped rabbit-warren that makes Iwo Jima look like the Isle of Wight if they want to deter China.
It needs to be clear to the PRC that they'd lose tens of thousands of men and get bogged down in bloody stalemate if they tried.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
It'll blow over. If the French could undercut the US on an arms deal they'd have no compunction.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
Biden's not that interested in Ireland.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
Of course he is interested in Ireland, hence he made clear that under no circumstances whatsoever would he tolerate a hard border in Ireland.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
Perhaps not if they've been watching recent developments in China.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
Today was the day Ursula VDL talked about her new European Defence Union in here "State of the Union 2021" speech.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
Extract: Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
By Jove, he's got it! More Europe!
Sometimes it might be the answer, if they have certain ambitions. It's just not the answer to every single little thing, which is just annoying.
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal
Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
Why is it nonsense
You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.
Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
On the trade point, I'm following the trade issue closely for my job, and for technical reasons it is virtually impossible to have a US-UK trade deal before 2023 (Biden would need an authority for negotiations which he won't get this side of the mid-terms - and probably still less after them).
I believe that after tonight it will be part of the Trans Pacific partnership that UK is in the process of joining
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
Biden's not that interested in Ireland.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
Of course he is interested in Ireland, hence he made clear that under no circumstances whatsoever would he tolerate a hard border in Ireland.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
Nah bollocks.
That's been quoted by many Remain voters like yourself since before Biden was elected but that's projectionism.
Look at what Biden has actually done as President. He's frequently working closely with the PM, because the US and UK are strategic allies and Biden and Boris despite their opponent's criticism are both professional enough to understand that completely.
What has Biden actually done as President with regards to Ireland? A big fat nothing as far as I can see.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
They aren't, Morrison still leads Albanese as preferred PM and as the last election showed in Australia who is preferred PM is a better indicator than headline voting intention
Despite so far behind in the pp2, yet you calling it for that man from down under already 😆
Will this announcement make it more difficult for that man to win the coming election? 🤔
Every poll in the 2019 Australian election had Labor ahead on 2PP before polling day, however Morrison still led Shorten as preferred PM.
Morrison's Coalition won the election.
I would imagine this announcement will boost him a bit as strong on national security, plus as more Australians continue to get vaccinated, helped by vaccines from us, their lockdown will ease and he will get a further boost
I haven’t bothered to look, but I can’t believe Morrison was as much as 10 down on 2pp and still won as he is now this close to the election. It’s actually the red line still with the upward trajectory. Things really have turned against Morrison this time, almost from the start really, with disbelief he got back in, the mess he made of the fires, and the same factors that undermined Labour last time, bad records in state government don’t apply this time either.
Today was the day Ursula VDL talked about her new European Defence Union in here "State of the Union 2021" speech.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
Extract: Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
By Jove, he's got it! More Europe!
To be more serious yet also more cynical, the EDU is a Gallic scheme to spend billions of German Euros in French arms factories.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
As much as it amuses me to hear this I would rather the French were in it, because we probably do need them.
The trouble is: I don't trust them. Not sure the Americans or Australians do too.
They need to divorce their FDSP away from the EU if they want to play.
I'm trying to keep across the Italian politica interna and get more of the gist of the top ongoing stories ahead of any GE there.
Today's emphasis was for one more big push on common EU foreign, defence and security, and Italian ministers primarily engaging France on that. Perhaps to go to a new German government with a common understanding, but also perhaps with one eye on our announcement.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
The French have only ever been half-engaged with NATO at the best of times.
There's a reason they were never a part of Five Eyes and its not because they aren't English-speaking.
GWB wanted them in ( note that the preferences of the other eyes meant nothing) but Sarkozy said no.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
Biden's not that interested in Ireland.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
Of course he is interested in Ireland, hence he made clear that under no circumstances whatsoever would he tolerate a hard border in Ireland.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
Nah bollocks.
That's been quoted by many Remain voters like yourself since before Biden was elected but that's projectionism.
Look at what Biden has actually done as President. He's frequently working closely with the PM, because the US and UK are strategic allies and Biden and Boris despite their opponent's criticism are both professional enough to understand that completely.
What has Biden actually done as President with regards to Ireland? A big fat nothing as far as I can see.
Biden's not stupid - I never really understood the idea his affinity for Ireland would be bad news for the UK. He'd act toward the UK on its merits of benefiting the USA.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
I think you will find that the Taiwanese looked at Hong Kong and pretty much worked out where its at with China and they are increasingly of the view thats not where they want to be. The Pan Blue movement has some vague talk of reunification but it doesnt generally recognise the communist government of China as what it intends to unify with. De facto, therefore, the idea of unification with Communist China is not something has strong enough support to get anywhere.
Taiwan per head is richer than China, more prosperous and more free, what do they need to unify with China to get rich for? They can do it quite happily without unification and the more aggressive the Chinese get the more the Tainwanese will set their face against it.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
What’s your take on the Silk Road the Chinese are building in our direction? Where excitement is about facing them militarily, are we missing something? How concerned should we be about That Road?
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Yes; ultimately, the democracies of the EU have far more in common with Australia, the US, and the UK than they do with China or Russia.
I think there are two key reasons they weren't included in this:
(1) I think there is signalling here that, if you want to be a member, you need to pay your share. This is why Canada hasn't been involved to date, and it's why Germany was ineligible to join either.
(2) They (the US in particular) want this to be something that they set the rules on (as happened with NATO), and you can join or not join. If France had been involved from the start, they would have balked at deferring to the US, and it would have taken years.
Other countries, so long as they're willing to meet commitments, will be joining in time. And yes, this is probably the death knell for NATO. But I fully expect Canada and Norway will be members before long, and that they will be followed by France, Germany, Italy, and the like.
Some countries - like Turkey - will never be invited to join the new grouping.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
The difference in price between 12 of the US and UK Hunter-Killer subs seems to the right sort of sum - £6bn - to buy two aircraft carriers.
How curious.
(Unlikely: would put Uncle Sam's nose out of joint, and make Oz very dependant on BAE.)
The RAN have a recruitment (but not retention, the opposite of the RN) problem. They are always looking for the most effective defence effects with least number of people. That's not carriers...
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
I think the biggest shock for the EU has been how uninterested the US is in the EU now that we're not in it. They expected it to be the other way around with the US putting their relationship with the UK in the backseat and the French are incredibly bitter about it.
The next German chancellor is going to be an pacifist whichever party wins. They will be an unreliable military ally for the foreseeable future. They will be as mercantile as they have ever been, talking about global this and open that while selling out western technology to China for dollars today.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
They aren't, Morrison still leads Albanese as preferred PM and as the last election showed in Australia who is preferred PM is a better indicator than headline voting intention
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
There is no new fracture, it was already there but the basic security and defence relationships will continue. The French go their own way plenty and post war history tells you that. Sometimes they want in, sometimes they dont.
Thre reality is though that the likes of the US know rightly that the major European nations are too inconsistent (France) or too plain flaky (Germany) to bring into the centre circle.
66% of Taiwanese do not identity as Chinese at all then.
However that divides on political lines, 92% of governing DMT supporters identify as Taiwanese only, 53% of opposition KMT supporters identify as Taiwanese and Chinese
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
66% of Taiwanese do not identity as Chinese at all then.
However that divides on political lines, 92% of governing DMT supporters identify as Taiwanese only, 53% of opposition KMT supporters identify as Taiwanese and Chinese
Nice work there, however did you get this info? You got a couple of facts wrong, like the names and numbers, but incredible work. Your information finding skills are astounding.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
66% of Taiwanese do not identity as Chinese at all then.
However that divides on political lines, 92% of governing DMT supporters identify as Taiwanese only, 53% of opposition KMT supporters identify as Taiwanese and Chinese
Nice work there, however did you get this info? You got a couple of facts wrong, like the names and numbers, but incredible work. Your information finding skills are astounding.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
It is reality, China is over the other side of the world from us. If anyone is going to invade mainland Europe and then us it will be Putin not Xi. The main buttress against Putin is the European nations that make up NATO.
The main buttress against China however will be its neighbours in South Asia and Oceania and the Far East ie Japan, South Korea, India and Australia.
Yes we can share intelligence etc but it is the powers of Asia and Australia who need to lead on naval patrols in the South China Sea, not us, hence supplying Australia with nuclear submarines
Honestly, it never rains but it pours. I must have murdered a gazillion people in a previous life to get the sort of karma we're having lately.
At A&E. Husband swallowed something at dinner which has choked him, stuck in his throat and cannot be dislodged. 111 sent us here.
It is now raining and the dog is farting in the car. Furness Hospital car park on a wet Wednesday night is .... well ..... not the most thrilling place to be.
Dinner was chicken in a creamy leek and walnut sauce on a bed of rice, with steamed broccoli. In case you were wondering.
66% of Taiwanese do not identity as Chinese at all then.
However that divides on political lines, 92% of governing DMT supporters identify as Taiwanese only, 53% of opposition KMT supporters identify as Taiwanese and Chinese
Nice work there, however did you get this info? You got a couple of facts wrong, like the names and numbers, but incredible work. Your information finding skills are astounding.
From the link in the comment he replied to.
See, amazing. Nobody else would have thought that. He clicked the link, and copied an approximation of what was in that page! Brilliant!
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Yes; ultimately, the democracies of the EU have far more in common with Australia, the US, and the UK than they do with China or Russia.
I think there are two key reasons they weren't included in this:
(1) I think there is signalling here that, if you want to be a member, you need to pay your share. This is why Canada hasn't been involved to date, and it's why Germany was ineligible to join either.
(2) They (the US in particular) want this to be something that they set the rules on (as happened with NATO), and you can join or not join. If France had been involved from the start, they would have balked at deferring to the US, and it would have taken years.
Other countries, so long as they're willing to meet commitments, will be joining in time. And yes, this is probably the death knell for NATO. But I fully expect Canada and Norway will be members before long, and that they will be followed by France, Germany, Italy, and the like.
Some countries - like Turkey - will never be invited to join the new grouping.
I think an interesting addendum here is Russia’s attitude to China. The former is well aware that the latter covets its Siberian lands, and its mineral resources, and that Russian demographic trends make it not impossible that China effectively absorbs the Russian Far East over time. There have been signs Russia and India are getting closer, which undoubtedly is a signal to China.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Yes; ultimately, the democracies of the EU have far more in common with Australia, the US, and the UK than they do with China or Russia.
I think there are two key reasons they weren't included in this:
(1) I think there is signalling here that, if you want to be a member, you need to pay your share. This is why Canada hasn't been involved to date, and it's why Germany was ineligible to join either.
(2) They (the US in particular) want this to be something that they set the rules on (as happened with NATO), and you can join or not join. If France had been involved from the start, they would have balked at deferring to the US, and it would have taken years.
Other countries, so long as they're willing to meet commitments, will be joining in time. And yes, this is probably the death knell for NATO. But I fully expect Canada and Norway will be members before long, and that they will be followed by France, Germany, Italy, and the like.
Some countries - like Turkey - will never be invited to join the new grouping.
Agreed, I think this will expand into the new NATO. We need it to do so, to have the best chance of some kind of Cold War balance with China, and no actual war. Detente for the 21st century. MAD plus free trade
That means opening AUKUS up to willing European nations, over time. NATO is dead. It was designed to contain the USSR and it did that very well, but the world has changed, This is NATO 2.0, focused on the Indo-Pacific. France should be integral but it needs to accept the new reality
I don't think there will ever be a serious EU Defence force where Spaniards will die for Bulgarians or Greeks for Belgians or even Germans for Irish. It is too incoherent and the various emotions too fissile
Honestly, it never rains but it pours. I must have murdered a gazillion people in a previous life to get the sort of karma we're having lately.
At A&E. Husband swallowed something at dinner which has choked him, stuck in his throat and cannot be dislodged. 111 sent us here.
It is now raining and the dog is farting in the car. Furness Hospital car park on a wet Wednesday night is .... well ..... not the most thrilling place to be.
Dinner was chicken in a creamy leek and walnut sauce on a bed of rice, with steamed broccoli. In case you were wondering.
It may be a long night......
Best of wishes @Cyclefree and hope all turns out ok
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
But seriously, he takes the party line now because for him the party always comes first, but he still uses the same Remain arguments he used when he voted Remain.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
66% of Taiwanese do not identity as Chinese at all then.
However that divides on political lines, 92% of governing DMT supporters identify as Taiwanese only, 53% of opposition KMT supporters identify as Taiwanese and Chinese
Nice work there, however did you get this info? You got a couple of facts wrong, like the names and numbers, but incredible work. Your information finding skills are astounding.
From the link in the comment he replied to.
See, amazing. Nobody else would have thought that. He clicked the link, and copied an approximation of what was in that page! Brilliant!
Lots of people here quote text from pages they or others link to, it isn't anything special.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
Honestly, it never rains but it pours. I must have murdered a gazillion people in a previous life to get the sort of karma we're having lately.
At A&E. Husband swallowed something at dinner which has choked him, stuck in his throat and cannot be dislodged. 111 sent us here.
It is now raining and the dog is farting in the car. Furness Hospital car park on a wet Wednesday night is .... well ..... not the most thrilling place to be.
Dinner was chicken in a creamy leek and walnut sauce on a bed of rice, with steamed broccoli. In case you were wondering.
It may be a long night......
Oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Hope all turns out OK.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
China is over the other side of the world from us.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Yes; ultimately, the democracies of the EU have far more in common with Australia, the US, and the UK than they do with China or Russia.
I think there are two key reasons they weren't included in this:
(1) I think there is signalling here that, if you want to be a member, you need to pay your share. This is why Canada hasn't been involved to date, and it's why Germany was ineligible to join either.
(2) They (the US in particular) want this to be something that they set the rules on (as happened with NATO), and you can join or not join. If France had been involved from the start, they would have balked at deferring to the US, and it would have taken years.
Other countries, so long as they're willing to meet commitments, will be joining in time. And yes, this is probably the death knell for NATO. But I fully expect Canada and Norway will be members before long, and that they will be followed by France, Germany, Italy, and the like.
Some countries - like Turkey - will never be invited to join the new grouping.
Agreed, I think this will expand into the new NATO. We need it to do so, to have the best chance of some kind of Cold War balance with China, and no actual war. Detente for the 21st century. MAD plus free trade
That means opening AUKUS up to willing European nations, over time. NATO is dead. It was designed to contain the USSR and it did that very well, but the world has changed, This is NATO 2.0, focused on the Indo-Pacific. France should be integral but it needs to accept the new reality
I don't think there will ever be a serious EU Defence force where Spaniards will die for Bulgarians or Greeks for Belgians or even Germans for Irish. It is too incoherent and the various emotions too fissile
NATO is not dead, Putin is still almost as big a danger as Xi globally and for we in Europe who are far closer to Russia than China Putin is more of a threat than Xi. We have to focus on containing Putin.
Yes a new western alliance is needed in Asia to contain China, made up of Australia, Japan, S Korea and India but while we can support that we will not lead it.
The US as the only western superpower still can still provide a leadership role for both
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
But seriously, he takes the party line now because for him the party always comes first, but he still uses the same Remain arguments he used when he voted Remain.
The level of multiculturalism in this Cabinet is way beyond anything we have ever seen. Chancellor, Home Sec, Health Sec, Business Sec, Education Sec. Its really remarkable but people still witter on about newspaper articles decades ago. Labour front bench is incredibly white by comparison.
Annoyingly good point.
The best thing about it is that's it's not even really an issue, and there's little comment about it, or point-scoring. We actually have a government that if anything is over-representative of ethnic minorities*, but nobody cares, because nobody thinks that the appointments are down to ethnicity. The appointments are political favours and intended to thwart rivals or bolster allies, as it has always been done, and skin colour doesn't come into it.
* I've not done a head count but it's a hunch, ignore all this if I'm wrong.
Yes, it is like when Blunkett was the first Home Secretary with a major disability*, fairly unremarked other than to consider his politics and abilities.
* no doubt @ydoethur will pop up to say that Sir Archibald Snot in 1826 was...
The greater the competence of politician from minority group X, the less attention is paid to that politician's membership of minority group X.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
I have @HYUFD as a remainer due to loyalty to party, not conviction but maybe I’m wrong
I have it the other way around.
Look at that stream of consciousness just now saying that Europe is the "other side of the world" from China. Pure Remain nonsense, the reality is as any Global Britain Brexiteer by conviction could tell you is that the entire world is interconnected and the continent is irrelevant.
The idea that the UK was safe from the USSR fifty years ago because of distance alone was complete claptrap and the idea that Europe isn't or shouldn't be relevant to China in the 21st century is just madness. The entire world is interconnected.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
But seriously, he takes the party line now because for him the party always comes first, but he still uses the same Remain arguments he used when he voted Remain.
(Only joking HYFUD - you get a lot of flak on here but you stick up for what you believe in which I admire)
He really doesn't, though. He's a loyalist. He shifts his opinion to suit the party line. Well, I guess that just means he believes in the The Party rather than having any independent belief system. So in a way...
NZ has been a bit too susceptible to Chinese bullying of late to be entirely reliable.
In security terms, NZ political and government system is considered heavily penetrated by PRC but the other more prosaic factors are more important. They have limited military capability, even in regional terms, and little interest in improving that capability directly.
I could have sworn that nobody would want to have anything to do with us once we left the EU, especially when we reneged on that Northern Ireland deal and Boris prorogued Parliament.
I'll wake up tomorrow and we'll still be isolated.
Today was the day Ursula VDL talked about her new European Defence Union in here "State of the Union 2021" speech.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
Extract: Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
By Jove, he's got it! More Europe!
Sometimes it might be the answer, if they have certain ambitions. It's just not the answer to every single little thing, which is just annoying.
I think if the EU got itself sorted out into a coherent organisation we would all like it, surely?
It is still the case that the European leg of NATO including us have been leaning on the US since the 1960s. (?)
But Germany has landed them in a hole wrt Russia, and Brussels is on a low level political civil war with the Eastern countries - Poland, Hungary etc - which are exactly the ones that are now most important.
EuCo also needs to work out their relations with us, and wrt the Allied Rapid Reaction Force (based here) which has 20 countries involved and works with NATO/EU, the existing EURAF (some EU countries), the CEF (Combined Expeditionary Force - UK France) and whatever else is out there.
Is it up to that when it wasn't able to organise a game of Musical Chairs in a Turkery?
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
What would your approach to China be?
Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?
They’re fucking mad.
China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
If we do nothing and China become the dominant global power your freedoms go too. Pouf. Gone. They will use a mixture of money and threats to control your life, and the world then slips into a dark new authoritarian age.
Wake up.
Yes - we've seen how China treats its own people. We would expect to be treated worse.
When are the west going to get serious on China stealing IP, undercut Western companies, put them out of business and then monopolise the sector?
Even on a slightly silly level....if I was the US, UK, EU, I would be telling the likes of Amazon and eBay you have to absolutely crack down on the dodgy Chinese sellers on there.
Today, I nearly ended up buying something that all looked ok, then I did a bit of digging and found it is looks very much like a stolen IP product, Chinese company which has no real presence i.e. no proper website, no social media, I highly doubt they are paying VAT, do the old start a company, shut it down, switcharoo....and they were undercutting a well known brand by a few quid.
How many millions and millions of transactions are going through that platform where people just search for an item, oh look thats 10% cheaper, click, buy, job done. And its a very dodgy Chinese company behind it.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
I have @HYUFD as a remainer due to loyalty to party, not conviction but maybe I’m wrong
I have it the other way around.
Look at that stream of consciousness just now saying that Europe is the "other side of the world" from China. Pure Remain nonsense, the reality is as any Global Britain Brexiteer by conviction could tell you is that the entire world is interconnected and the continent is irrelevant.
The idea that the UK was safe from the USSR fifty years ago because of distance alone was complete claptrap and the idea that Europe isn't or shouldn't be relevant to China in the 21st century is just madness. The entire world is interconnected.
NZ has been a bit too susceptible to Chinese bullying of late to be entirely reliable.
In security terms, NZ political and government system is considered heavily penetrated by PRC but the other more prosaic factors are more important. They have limited military capability, even in regional terms, and little interest in improving that capability directly.
A lot of Kiwis will hate being isolated and left as China's miniature blow-up doll facsimile of Australia, however
I could have sworn that nobody would want to have anything to do with us once we left the EU, especially when we reneged on that Northern Ireland deal and Boris prorogued Parliament.
I'll wake up tomorrow and we'll still be isolated.
Critically though, it hasn’t solved the problems with HGV drivers and baristas
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
I have @HYUFD as a remainer due to loyalty to party, not conviction but maybe I’m wrong
I have it the other way around.
Look at that stream of consciousness just now saying that Europe is the "other side of the world" from China. Pure Remain nonsense, the reality is as any Global Britain Brexiteer by conviction could tell you is that the entire world is interconnected and the continent is irrelevant.
The idea that the UK was safe from the USSR fifty years ago because of distance alone was complete claptrap and the idea that Europe isn't or shouldn't be relevant to China in the 21st century is just madness. The entire world is interconnected.
No it is reality, at the end of the day those under threat from invasion by China are Taiwan and to a lesser extent Japan and South Korea (with knock on effects for Australian and Indian security if that occurred). We are not under threat of invasion from China and since the Hong Kong handover we have no direct interest in the Far East. So the main powers in the region need to lead on their defence from China with US support, not us.
Russia is still far more of a threat to us militarily as it was in the days of the USSR than China is. Yes we can cooperate with other western nations on cybersecurity from Chinese cyber attacks etc but beyond that Moscow is more a threat to us than Beijing, see also Russian subs patrolling around our coast or the spies in Salisbury etc.
As Enoch Powell rightly said once the British Empire ended we became a power in Europe and the Atlantic, nothing more beyond that and certainly not without following the lead of the USA as Suez confirmed.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Taiwan needs to be turned into a multi-layered defensive booby-trapped rabbit-warren that makes Iwo Jima look like the Isle of Wight if they want to deter China.
It needs to be clear to the PRC that they'd lose tens of thousands of men and get bogged down in bloody stalemate if they tried.
What makes you think it isn't? At least could be in short order. What 70 years of invasion planning is for. And I think it is clear. To the military and spies at least. Tens is an underestimate.
NZ has been a bit too susceptible to Chinese bullying of late to be entirely reliable.
In security terms, NZ political and government system is considered heavily penetrated by PRC but the other more prosaic factors are more important. They have limited military capability, even in regional terms, and little interest in improving that capability directly.
A lot of Kiwis will hate being isolated and left as China's miniature blow-up doll facsimile of Australia, however
@StuartKLau Australia's move to ditch France and team up with the US and UK for nuclear-powered submarines cannot come at a more embarrassing timing for the EU, which will tomorrow formally announce its Indo-Pacific strategy in which it vows to play a role in security and defence. (1/3)
Just half a month ago, France and Australia held their first 2+2 foreign and defence ministerial meeting, in which both sides "committed to ... enhance their capability edge in the region" and "underlined the importance of the Future Submarine program." (2/3)
The White House is showing where its most reliable partner is — at the expense of upsetting the EU ahead of the transatlantic Trade and Tech Council: "This is designed...to link Europe, and particularly Great Britain, more closely with our strategic pursuits in the region." (3/3)
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
Good. Not finding the more assertive China under Emperor Xi to their liking?
Is that how the article reads to you?
I am reading it now. That's why I put it as a question mark beforehand, as a potential guess.
My take out, amongst the articles waffle and oddly chosen metaphors, Two factors could, in a period distort such polling, if KMT or DPP are currently in the political ascendency, the sort of thing that will be in cycles, and Hong Kong, how it actually plays out in terms of impacting Taiwanese thinking, independence or unification.
So it’s not what snapshot polls may say at anytime, it’s what wise old heads sense will happen in the long term. As the article itself says, they look to Hong Kong and imagine that to be their fate eventually. Who is actually laying it on the line for Hong Kong?
So fatalism also the greater Chinese resolve to win this seemed to be the suggestion how it eventually plays out. Though pretty much disguised in the article behind fighting talk.
We haven’t really been awake to how China has been winning this Cold War for so long. It’s not an old fashioned military thing. How many countries throughout the third world, and around the world from Caribbean throughout Africa, love China for the largesse, the construction projects that would never have happened if it wasn’t for China?
Even UK. It’s only in recent years the Tory government have thrown China out of our telecom networks and cancelled the nuclear power station China was to build for us, isn’t it? Even US. only under Trump was the manufacture of all the Apple products brought back to the United States.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
What’s your take on the Silk Road the Chinese are building in our direction? Where excitement is about facing them militarily, are we missing something? How concerned should we be about That Road?
They bought the Pireaus, and are squeezing out competitors there by leaning towards Chinese shipping companies etc. Maersk etc do not like it. EuCo are worried about that, correctly.
It was a game Russia used to play with business on the Danube. I'm sure I recall Germany delayed finishing the last bit of the canal link between the Rhine and the Danube for decades for that reason.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
I have @HYUFD as a remainer due to loyalty to party, not conviction but maybe I’m wrong
I have it the other way around.
Look at that stream of consciousness just now saying that Europe is the "other side of the world" from China. Pure Remain nonsense, the reality is as any Global Britain Brexiteer by conviction could tell you is that the entire world is interconnected and the continent is irrelevant.
The idea that the UK was safe from the USSR fifty years ago because of distance alone was complete claptrap and the idea that Europe isn't or shouldn't be relevant to China in the 21st century is just madness. The entire world is interconnected.
No it is reality, at the end of the day those under threat from invasion by China are Taiwan and to a lesser extent Japan and South Korea (with knock on effects for Australian and Indian security if that occurred). We are not under threat of invasion from China and since the Hong Kong handover we have no direct interest in the Far East. So the main powers in the region need to lead on their defence from China with US support, not us.
Russia is still far more of a threat to us militarily as it was in the days of the USSR than China is. Yes we can cooperate with other western nations on cybersecurity from Chinese cyber attacks etc but beyond that Moscow is more a threat to us than Beijing, see also Russian subs patrolling around our coast or the spies in Salisbury etc.
As Enoch Powell rightly said once the British Empire ended we became a power in Europe and the Atlantic, nothing more beyond that and certainly not without following the lead of the USA as Suez confirmed.
You mean you are using the rush of help to Hong Kong right now as an ultimate yardstick how it plays out?
Honestly, it never rains but it pours. I must have murdered a gazillion people in a previous life to get the sort of karma we're having lately.
At A&E. Husband swallowed something at dinner which has choked him, stuck in his throat and cannot be dislodged. 111 sent us here.
It is now raining and the dog is farting in the car. Furness Hospital car park on a wet Wednesday night is .... well ..... not the most thrilling place to be.
Dinner was chicken in a creamy leek and walnut sauce on a bed of rice, with steamed broccoli. In case you were wondering.
It may be a long night......
Oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Hope all turns out OK.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
Good. Not finding the more assertive China under Emperor Xi to their liking?
Is that how the article reads to you?
I am reading it now. That's why I put it as a question mark beforehand, as a potential guess.
My take out, amongst the articles waffle and oddly chosen metaphors, Two factors could, in a period distort such polling, if KMT or DPP are currently in the political ascendency, the sort of thing that will be in cycles, and Hong Kong, how it actually plays out in terms of impacting Taiwanese thinking, independence or unification.
So it’s not what snapshot polls may say at anytime, it’s what wise old heads sense will happen in the long term. As the article itself says, they look to Hong Kong and imagine that to be their fate eventually. Who is actually laying it on the line for Hong Kong?
So fatalism also the greater Chinese resolve to win this seemed to be the suggestion how it eventually plays out. Though pretty much disguised in the article behind fighting talk.
We haven’t really been awake to how China has been winning this Cold War for so long. It’s not an old fashioned military thing. How many countries throughout the third world, and around the world from Caribbean throughout Africa, love China for the largesse, the construction projects that would never have happened if it wasn’t for China?
Even UK. It’s only in recent years the Tory government have thrown China out of our telecom networks and cancelled the nuclear power station China was to build for us, isn’t it? Even US. only under Trump was the manufacture of all the Apple products brought back to the United States.
Yes - vast amount of our university sector is dependent on Chinese funding. Hopefully that will now be reviewed too.
NZ has been a bit too susceptible to Chinese bullying of late to be entirely reliable.
In security terms, NZ political and government system is considered heavily penetrated by PRC but the other more prosaic factors are more important. They have limited military capability, even in regional terms, and little interest in improving that capability directly.
A lot of Kiwis will hate being isolated and left as China's miniature blow-up doll facsimile of Australia, however
Great prose! If only I knew what it meant.
It's clear, but overexcited. One of those dildos would pop a blowup doll.
At least we now know where Johnson is going to put the Trident boats after Scottish independence. They are obviously going to RAN Fleet Base West at Garden Island.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
What’s your take on the Silk Road the Chinese are building in our direction? Where excitement is about facing them militarily, are we missing something? How concerned should we be about That Road?
They bought the Pireaus, and are squeezing out competitors there by leaning towards Chinese shipping companies etc. Maersk etc do not like it. EuCo are worried about that, correctly.
It was a game Russia used to play with business on the Danube. I'm sure I recall Germany delayed finishing the last bit of the canal link between the Rhine and the Danube for decades for that reason.
Isn’t it the thing all empires do, including the British? For example, you can carry on with your business outside a club, but aren’t you tempted by the closed shop opportunities for you if you sign up?
Well thanks anyway for replying on The Road, I would hate to think all the people agitated on here tonight could actually miss the most present threat and danger.
Today’s landmark United Kingdom United States Australia security partnership reflects the UK’s commitment to deepening ties in the Indo-Pacific. We will work together to promote stability in a region that will become ever more important for the UK’s prosperity and security
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
But they have been such twats over Brexit. They tried to destroy it, and then they tried to harm us, overtly. Just because
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Only to contain Putin through NATO, to contain Xi the EU is far less important, Japan and India and South Korea will be more important players in a NATO of the Far East
That's utterly naive, we live in a global interconnected world.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
I have @HYUFD as a remainer due to loyalty to party, not conviction but maybe I’m wrong
I have it the other way around.
Look at that stream of consciousness just now saying that Europe is the "other side of the world" from China. Pure Remain nonsense, the reality is as any Global Britain Brexiteer by conviction could tell you is that the entire world is interconnected and the continent is irrelevant.
The idea that the UK was safe from the USSR fifty years ago because of distance alone was complete claptrap and the idea that Europe isn't or shouldn't be relevant to China in the 21st century is just madness. The entire world is interconnected.
No it is reality, at the end of the day those under threat from invasion by China are Taiwan and to a lesser extent Japan and South Korea (with knock on effects for Australian and Indian security if that occurred). We are not under threat of invasion from China and since the Hong Kong handover we have no direct interest in the Far East. So the main powers in the region need to lead on their defence from China with US support, not us.
Russia is still far more of a threat to us militarily as it was in the days of the USSR than China is. Yes we can cooperate with other western nations on cybersecurity from Chinese cyber attacks etc but beyond that Moscow is more a threat to us than Beijing, see also Russian subs patrolling around our coast or the spies in Salisbury etc.
As Enoch Powell rightly said once the British Empire ended we became a power in Europe and the Atlantic, nothing more beyond that and certainly not without following the lead of the USA as Suez confirmed.
You mean you are using the rush of help to Hong Kong right now as an ultimate yardstick how it plays out?
I suspect the west led by Biden would not intervene to help Taiwan as it has not intervened to help Hong Kong, only Japan and S Korea could be guaranteed US led support if invaded by China.
Hence Taiwan will have to probably get nukes to add to its defences and give itself a chance of warning Beijing off
At least we now know where Johnson is going to put the Trident boats after Scottish independence. They are obviously going to RAN Fleet Base West at Garden Island.
No as we will need them to deter Putin, not that the SNP are going to be allowed an indyref2 anyway
Today’s landmark United Kingdom United States Australia security partnership reflects the UK’s commitment to deepening ties in the Indo-Pacific. We will work together to promote stability in a region that will become ever more important for the UK’s prosperity and security
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
Good. Not finding the more assertive China under Emperor Xi to their liking?
Is that how the article reads to you?
I am reading it now. That's why I put it as a question mark beforehand, as a potential guess.
My take out, amongst the articles waffle and oddly chosen metaphors, Two factors could, in a period distort such polling, if KMT or DPP are currently in the political ascendency, the sort of thing that will be in cycles, and Hong Kong, how it actually plays out in terms of impacting Taiwanese thinking, independence or unification.
So it’s not what snapshot polls may say at anytime, it’s what wise old heads sense will happen in the long term. As the article itself says, they look to Hong Kong and imagine that to be their fate eventually. Who is actually laying it on the line for Hong Kong?
So fatalism also the greater Chinese resolve to win this seemed to be the suggestion how it eventually plays out. Though pretty much disguised in the article behind fighting talk.
We haven’t really been awake to how China has been winning this Cold War for so long. It’s not an old fashioned military thing. How many countries throughout the third world, and around the world from Caribbean throughout Africa, love China for the largesse, the construction projects that would never have happened if it wasn’t for China?
Even UK. It’s only in recent years the Tory government have thrown China out of our telecom networks and cancelled the nuclear power station China was to build for us, isn’t it? Even US. only under Trump was the manufacture of all the Apple products brought back to the United States.
Yes - vast amount of our university sector is dependent on Chinese funding. Hopefully that will now be reviewed too.
It’s great to be over our dependency on Chinese Largesse, investments, skills and Labour that is largely from sweat and hardship of slaves, especially to have the strong and honest ground to sound off like this on here this evening.
Vast amount of our higher education sector now dependent on Chinese funding? Really?
We did completely kick them out of our telecom infrastructure didn’t we? And cancel their involvement in our nuclear power industry? Chincly Point?
At least we now know where Johnson is going to put the Trident boats after Scottish independence. They are obviously going to RAN Fleet Base West at Garden Island.
Scottish independence has just become even harder. Sorry about that
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
What’s your take on the Silk Road the Chinese are building in our direction? Where excitement is about facing them militarily, are we missing something? How concerned should we be about That Road?
They bought the Pireaus, and are squeezing out competitors there by leaning towards Chinese shipping companies etc. Maersk etc do not like it. EuCo are worried about that, correctly.
It was a game Russia used to play with business on the Danube. I'm sure I recall Germany delayed finishing the last bit of the canal link between the Rhine and the Danube for decades for that reason.
Isn’t it the thing all empires do, including the British? For example, you can carry on with your business outside a club, but aren’t you tempted by the closed shop opportunities for you if you sign up?
Well thanks anyway for replying on The Road, I would hate to think all the people agitated on here tonight could actually miss the most present threat and danger.
Yes. And it depends how you evaluate the request.
Let's avoid ranking Empires by evilness today.
Personally I think that Western democracy, or other democratic though different-looking societies *, are far better than the alternative.
* (of the sort that should - with hindsight - have been built in Afghanistan and similar rather than just trying to create a carbon copy.)
Comments
It needs to be clear to the PRC that they'd lose tens of thousands of men and get bogged down in bloody stalemate if they tried.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
What happened in 2003 ?
Oh I see - France opposed Iraq Invasion at UN.
https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1438256932746375171?s=20
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
That's been quoted by many Remain voters like yourself since before Biden was elected but that's projectionism.
Look at what Biden has actually done as President. He's frequently working closely with the PM, because the US and UK are strategic allies and Biden and Boris despite their opponent's criticism are both professional enough to understand that completely.
What has Biden actually done as President with regards to Ireland? A big fat nothing as far as I can see.
Proper betting discussion this one. 🙂
Today's emphasis was for one more big push on common EU foreign, defence and security, and Italian ministers primarily engaging France on that. Perhaps to go to a new German government with a common understanding, but also perhaps with one eye on our announcement.
The difference in price between 12 of the US and UK Hunter-Killer subs seems to the right sort of sum - £6bn - to buy two aircraft carriers.
How curious.
(Unlikely: would put Uncle Sam's nose out of joint, and make Oz very dependant on BAE.)
It is no wonder the UK has now hugged its Anglo cousins closer, in a way which annoys them. What did they expect?
That said, ultimately we do need AUKUS united with the EU. A lot depends on the next German Chancellor
Taiwan per head is richer than China, more prosperous and more free, what do they need to unify with China to get rich for? They can do it quite happily without unification and the more aggressive the Chinese get the more the Tainwanese will set their face against it.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/05/12/in-taiwan-views-of-mainland-china-mostly-negative/pg_2020-05-12_taiwan_0-11/
I think there are two key reasons they weren't included in this:
(1) I think there is signalling here that, if you want to be a member, you need to pay your share. This is why Canada hasn't been involved to date, and it's why Germany was ineligible to join either.
(2) They (the US in particular) want this to be something that they set the rules on (as happened with NATO), and you can join or not join. If France had been involved from the start, they would have balked at deferring to the US, and it would have taken years.
Other countries, so long as they're willing to meet commitments, will be joining in time. And yes, this is probably the death knell for NATO. But I fully expect Canada and Norway will be members before long, and that they will be followed by France, Germany, Italy, and the like.
Some countries - like Turkey - will never be invited to join the new grouping.
The next German chancellor is going to be an pacifist whichever party wins. They will be an unreliable military ally for the foreseeable future. They will be as mercantile as they have ever been, talking about global this and open that while selling out western technology to China for dollars today.
Remainers like yourself are absolutely determined to divide the world into continental blocs but when data, cash and even intercontinental ballistic missiles can get from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world the idea geography means you can just ignore portions of the world is utterly bonkers.
Whether that will make it stick ...
Thre reality is though that the likes of the US know rightly that the major European nations are too inconsistent (France) or too plain flaky (Germany) to bring into the centre circle.
However that divides on political lines, 92% of governing DMT supporters identify as Taiwanese only, 53% of opposition KMT supporters identify as Taiwanese and Chinese
In eastern Europe and Scandi they might like to be friendlier, but core western Europe will see us as near-enemies, certainly rivals
So be it.
I wonder where this leaves Scottish Nationalism (a bit screwed, foreign policywise?) but also, in the end, Ireland.
You got a couple of facts wrong, like the names and numbers, but incredible work. Your information finding skills are astounding.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/05/12/in-taiwan-views-of-mainland-china-mostly-negative/
The main buttress against China however will be its neighbours in South Asia and Oceania and the Far East ie Japan, South Korea, India and Australia.
Yes we can share intelligence etc but it is the powers of Asia and Australia who need to lead on naval patrols in the South China Sea, not us, hence supplying Australia with nuclear submarines
At A&E. Husband swallowed something at dinner which has choked him, stuck in his throat and cannot be dislodged. 111 sent us here.
It is now raining and the dog is farting in the car. Furness Hospital car park on a wet Wednesday night is .... well ..... not the most thrilling place to be.
Dinner was chicken in a creamy leek and walnut sauce on a bed of rice, with steamed broccoli. In case you were wondering.
It may be a long night......
The ambitious AUKUS alliance is being hailed as Australia’s most significant strategic move in decades.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/australia-us-and-britain-unveil-new-aukus-defence-pact-to-counter-china-20210915-p58rzz.html
And that is where the comparison ends
That means opening AUKUS up to willing European nations, over time. NATO is dead. It was designed to contain the USSR and it did that very well, but the world has changed, This is NATO 2.0, focused on the Indo-Pacific. France should be integral but it needs to accept the new reality
I don't think there will ever be a serious EU Defence force where Spaniards will die for Bulgarians or Greeks for Belgians or even Germans for Irish. It is too incoherent and the various emotions too fissile
But seriously, he takes the party line now because for him the party always comes first, but he still uses the same Remain arguments he used when he voted Remain.
I'm thinking the walnut could be the culprit...
But tomorrow its being presented by Anna Soubry and Ian Dunt. How is that supposed to be balanced? #KMN I would not be watching that.
Yes a new western alliance is needed in Asia to contain China, made up of Australia, Japan, S Korea and India but while we can support that we will not lead it.
The US as the only western superpower still can still provide a leadership role for both
(Only joking HYFUD - you get a lot of flak on here but you stick up for what you believe in which I admire)
Look at that stream of consciousness just now saying that Europe is the "other side of the world" from China. Pure Remain nonsense, the reality is as any Global Britain Brexiteer by conviction could tell you is that the entire world is interconnected and the continent is irrelevant.
The idea that the UK was safe from the USSR fifty years ago because of distance alone was complete claptrap and the idea that Europe isn't or shouldn't be relevant to China in the 21st century is just madness. The entire world is interconnected.
Well, I guess that just means he believes in the The Party rather than having any independent belief system. So in a way...
I could have sworn that nobody would want to have anything to do with us once we left the EU, especially when we reneged on that Northern Ireland deal and Boris prorogued Parliament.
I'll wake up tomorrow and we'll still be isolated.
It is still the case that the European leg of NATO including us have been leaning on the US since the 1960s. (?)
But Germany has landed them in a hole wrt Russia, and Brussels is on a low level political civil war with the Eastern countries - Poland, Hungary etc - which are exactly the ones that are now most important.
EuCo also needs to work out their relations with us, and wrt the Allied Rapid Reaction Force (based here) which has 20 countries involved and works with NATO/EU, the existing EURAF (some EU countries), the CEF (Combined Expeditionary Force - UK France) and whatever else is out there.
Is it up to that when it wasn't able to organise a game of Musical Chairs in a Turkery?
NZ out in the cold as US, UK and Australia sign landmark security deal
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/nz-out-in-the-cold-as-us-uk-and-australia-sign-landmark-security-deal/L2NL4W7S23PSEG7HSJG7MGH7SU/
Even on a slightly silly level....if I was the US, UK, EU, I would be telling the likes of Amazon and eBay you have to absolutely crack down on the dodgy Chinese sellers on there.
Today, I nearly ended up buying something that all looked ok, then I did a bit of digging and found it is looks very much like a stolen IP product, Chinese company which has no real presence i.e. no proper website, no social media, I highly doubt they are paying VAT, do the old start a company, shut it down, switcharoo....and they were undercutting a well known brand by a few quid.
How many millions and millions of transactions are going through that platform where people just search for an item, oh look thats 10% cheaper, click, buy, job done. And its a very dodgy Chinese company behind it.
Russia is still far more of a threat to us militarily as it was in the days of the USSR than China is. Yes we can cooperate with other western nations on cybersecurity from Chinese cyber attacks etc but beyond that Moscow is more a threat to us than Beijing, see also Russian subs patrolling around our coast or the spies in Salisbury etc.
As Enoch Powell rightly said once the British Empire ended we became a power in Europe and the Atlantic, nothing more beyond that and certainly not without following the lead of the USA as Suez confirmed.
And I think it is clear. To the military and spies at least. Tens is an underestimate.
Australia's move to ditch France and team up with the US and UK for nuclear-powered submarines cannot come at a more embarrassing timing for the EU, which will tomorrow formally announce its Indo-Pacific strategy in which it vows to play a role in security and defence. (1/3)
Just half a month ago, France and Australia held their first 2+2 foreign and defence ministerial meeting, in which both sides "committed to ... enhance their capability edge in the region" and "underlined the importance of the Future Submarine program." (2/3)
The White House is showing where its most reliable partner is — at the expense of upsetting the EU ahead of the transatlantic Trade and Tech Council: "This is designed...to link Europe, and particularly Great Britain, more closely with our strategic pursuits in the region." (3/3)
https://twitter.com/StuartKLau/status/1438269647867031559
So it’s not what snapshot polls may say at anytime, it’s what wise old heads sense will happen in the long term. As the article itself says, they look to Hong Kong and imagine that to be their fate eventually. Who is actually laying it on the line for Hong Kong?
So fatalism also the greater Chinese resolve to win this seemed to be the suggestion how it eventually plays out. Though pretty much disguised in the article behind fighting talk.
We haven’t really been awake to how China has been winning this Cold War for so long. It’s not an old fashioned military thing. How many countries throughout the third world, and around the world from Caribbean throughout Africa, love China for the largesse, the construction projects that would never have happened if it wasn’t for China?
Even UK. It’s only in recent years the Tory government have thrown China out of our telecom networks and cancelled the nuclear power station China was to build for us, isn’t it? Even US. only under Trump was the manufacture of all the Apple products brought back to the United States.
It was a game Russia used to play with business on the Danube. I'm sure I recall Germany delayed finishing the last bit of the canal link between the Rhine and the Danube for decades for that reason.
Well thanks anyway for replying on The Road, I would hate to think all the people agitated on here tonight could actually miss the most present threat and danger.
Today’s landmark United Kingdom United States Australia security partnership reflects the UK’s commitment to deepening ties in the Indo-Pacific. We will work together to promote stability in a region that will become ever more important for the UK’s prosperity and security
https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1438248837337001987?s=20
Hence Taiwan will have to probably get nukes to add to its defences and give itself a chance of warning Beijing off
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1438280903525027850?s=20
https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1438273128245907460?s=20
Vast amount of our higher education sector now dependent on Chinese funding? Really?
We did completely kick them out of our telecom infrastructure didn’t we? And cancel their involvement in our nuclear power industry? Chincly Point?
Let's avoid ranking Empires by evilness today.
Personally I think that Western democracy, or other democratic though different-looking societies *, are far better than the alternative.
* (of the sort that should - with hindsight - have been built in Afghanistan and similar rather than just trying to create a carbon copy.)