There are lots of bitter comments on French social media about this with people saying they should pull out of NATO, restart nuclear testing in the Pacific and that they should have sold Argentina more Exocets.
"Gérard Araud @GerardAraud The world is a jungle. France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie."
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
The level of multiculturalism in this Cabinet is way beyond anything we have ever seen. Chancellor, Home Sec, Health Sec, Business Sec, Education Sec. Its really remarkable but people still witter on about newspaper articles decades ago. Labour front bench is incredibly white by comparison.
Annoyingly good point.
The best thing about it is that's it's not even really an issue, and there's little comment about it, or point-scoring. We actually have a government that if anything is over-representative of ethnic minorities*, but nobody cares, because nobody thinks that the appointments are down to ethnicity. The appointments are political favours and intended to thwart rivals or bolster allies, as it has always been done, and skin colour doesn't come into it.
* I've not done a head count but it's a hunch, ignore all this if I'm wrong.
Once again it really is very striking just how distant the US is becoming from the EU. The democrats in charge of the Biden agenda have continually made moves to snub European countries and the EU. We now have a technology sharing agreement between the US, UK and Australia which covers AI, quantum computing, nuclear technologies and other emerging defence tech, none of the 27 nations are even close to a seat at the table. This is just the latest move where Europe has found itself not even making it into second best.
I'm personally not sure it's a good idea from the US to push European countries away like this, we need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China. It's no good for the US, UK and some APAC nations to start making moves to curtail China's malign influence on the world while European countries continue to treat with them and enrich them.
Doubt it. You're a wavering voter and you hear that a deal to sell Australia some non-nuclear armed nuclear-powered subs has been agreed, and Canada's not involved. Does that decide your vote? Unlikely.
Hmm. It's a close election. It's not a good foreign policy look for Trudeau, being left out of a new and important military alliance of the major English speaking powers, including Canada's biggest ally and neighbour
I guess the question is: if asked, would he have said Yes? I don't know enough about him to answer, but my instinct is that Canada being in this new alliance from the start would have been better for him, politically. If only because he'd have been on live global TV and they could have called it CAUKUS. Everyone wants a CAUKUS
Canada has no operational nuclear-powered submarines, though it has some that are not in use. They could not sell anything to Australia.
But they could grant your wish and join CAUKUS by agreeing to talk about purchasing American (and slightly British) nuclear-powered submarines once their election is out of the way.
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal
Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
Why is it nonsense
You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.
Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
Does he support this tripartite deal to provide nuclear powered subs to Australia
I am sure the left and the Greens will be furious
Which side of the world? This announcement is hardly going to save, that bloke down under, from being replaced by Labour, who might well have their own policies and idea’s.
The 2pp has, that bloke down under, toast for sure in six months.
Well, I'll wager one thing: we won't be hearing about AUUKUS ever again.
Looks to me like Scotty wanted a bit of face saving as his deal with the French over subs became unaffordable, mostly over costs of building in Australia.
Yes, that's my take. Boris was just along for the ride.
Actually, I'll revise that. There'll doubtless be a huge backlash in AUS about becoming a mere US dominion. Boris's presence might provide some counterweight to that, though it isn't great - many will see it as a former colonial master trying to muscle in with a potential new one.
No. Since the fall of Singapore, and the Battle of the Coral Sea, Australia has known that the only country that can protect it is the USA. That is why the Aussies were in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Notably we skipped Vietnam, much to the Americans annoyance.
What does it matter to the UK? Possibly some export sales, though nothing very soon. More importantly it is to curry favour with Scotty in the run up to other deals.
Indeed, the US' closest ally is actually Australia not us, the only major nation which has fought with the US in all its wars from WW1 on
"Gérard Araud @GerardAraud The world is a jungle. France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie."
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
I wonder whether they'll go for something more like the dreadnought class, you know just in case they want to borrow a trident missile or two.
I suspect it's also to aid Australia to develop a nuclear civilian sector to aid its transition of energy generation away from coal.
If I heard correctly, the Australian PM said he wasn't interested in that. Which is logical. They don't need it. Most of the country is a gigantic desert: they can just fill chunks of it up with solar plants.
Why are media still peddling this cases are rising stuff?
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 14m How is ok to have it claimed on the Sky News 10 o'clock news - peak time viewing - by a professor from the govt's own modelling unit, that cases are rising when there is no conceivable measure by which that is true? And it was recorded so they cld hv checked before broadcasting!
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
What would your approach to China be?
Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?
They’re fucking mad.
China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
If we do nothing and China become the dominant global power your freedoms go too. Pouf. Gone. They will use a mixture of money and threats to control your life, and the world then slips into a dark new authoritarian age.
Wake up.
And having spent the last 25 years trading exclusively with China, exporting our manufacturing jobs and filling their banks with USD, Euros and UK pounds, in order to keep western inflation down, the penny has finally dropped.
A bit late for your big boy bravery now isn't it?
Lol. So your argument is that we're a bit late to the party.
Erh, yeah. We should have been doing this five years ago - I agree. Some of us were saying this, including me, ever since the umbrella protests in Hong Kong. However, this is a bit of a difficult argument for you to pull off since morons like you were accusing us of sabre-rattling then too.
Put your fingers in your ears and hide under your bed if it makes you feel better but otherwise please do shut-up and leave foreign policy to the grown ups
Once again it really is very striking just how distant the US is becoming from the EU. The democrats in charge of the Biden agenda have continually made moves to snub European countries and the EU. We now have a technology sharing agreement between the US, UK and Australia which covers AI, quantum computing, nuclear technologies and other emerging defence tech, none of the 27 nations are even close to a seat at the table. This is just the latest move where Europe has found itself not even making it into second best.
I'm personally not sure it's a good idea from the US to push European countries away like this, we need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China. It's no good for the US, UK and some APAC nations to start making moves to curtail China's malign influence on the world while European countries continue to treat with them and enrich them.
China is on the other side of the world from Europe, it is more important to get India and Japan and S Korea involved to contain China than the EU.
The EU is needed however to contain Putin's Russia through Nato
Once again it really is very striking just how distant the US is becoming from the EU. The democrats in charge of the Biden agenda have continually made moves to snub European countries and the EU. We now have a technology sharing agreement between the US, UK and Australia which covers AI, quantum computing, nuclear technologies and other emerging defence tech, none of the 27 nations are even close to a seat at the table. This is just the latest move where Europe has found itself not even making it into second best.
I'm personally not sure it's a good idea from the US to push European countries away like this, we need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China. It's no good for the US, UK and some APAC nations to start making moves to curtail China's malign influence on the world while European countries continue to treat with them and enrich them.
But isn't it the other way around - that the likes of Germany are unreliable allies because they continue to treat with them and enrich them?
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
Nah, it's a Trump foreign policy goal, America has extended its sphere of influence in a very big way today.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
What would your approach to China be?
Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?
They’re fucking mad.
China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
If we do nothing and China become the dominant global power your freedoms go too. Pouf. Gone. They will use a mixture of money and threats to control your life, and the world then slips into a dark new authoritarian age.
Wake up.
And having spent the last 25 years trading exclusively with China, exporting our manufacturing jobs and filling their banks with USD, Euros and UK pounds, in order to keep western inflation down, the penny has finally dropped.
A bit late for your big boy bravery now isn't it?
Lol. So your argument is that we're a bit late to the party.
Erh, yeah. We should have been doing this five years ago - I agree. Some of us were saying this, including me, ever since the umbrella protests in Hong Kong. However, this is a bit of a difficult argument for you to pull off since morons like you were accusing us of sabre-rattling then too.
Put your fingers in your ears and hide under your bed if it makes you feel better but otherwise please do shut-up and leave foreign policy to the grown ups
We have to start somewhere. Late is always better than never.
Grow a dick. We're all fucked unless we stand up to and contain China.
Entirely necessary and the right thing to do for the future of humanity, and you're a naïve idiot if you disagree.
"Stand up to and contain" China?
Okay - they're winning the economic war hands down it would seem - is any part of this standing up and containing process going to involve challenging China economically and environmentally (I presume if China can't get its coal from Australia, one of its African surrogates will provide).
How do we compete with China in Africa for example? What can we provide they can't?
Do we see the PLA marching across the steppes or sweeping into the Pacific - if so, shouldn't part of the containment process involve Russia and India who both share extensive borders with China or is our focus purely on the Pacific (Japan, South Korea?).
What of North Korea and its ballistic missile capability (another country with whom China shares a border coincidentally)?
I'm not disputing the fact China is emerging (or re-emerging) as a significant global power - at least economically. The military dimension - inasmuch as the nature of warfare is moving away to other spheres and other weapons than the old-fashioned tanks, guns and ships to cyber space and, whisper it quietly perhaps, biological warfare (sorry, can't get @Leon excited at this time of evening) - is less clear.
Are we offering any kind of guarantee to Vietnam (another country bordering China) or the Philippines?
Perhaps we should be looking to re-activate SEATO or something similar - I don't know.
I sense "standing up to and containing", while an easy soundbite, needs a lot more thought and coherence to get close to an actual policy.
I see this as a first step. It's about getting liberal and democratic nations to cooperate in trade, economics, security, technology and defence to resist the authoritarian encroachment of China so it doesn't pick us off one-by-one, like it's already started to do through stifling criticism of itself, in return for trade, in New Zealand.
This is also good for China as it might force it to reconsider its policy, and its people perhaps ultimately its regime, so whatever way you look at it it's the right thing to do.
Why are media still peddling this cases are rising stuff?
Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico · 14m How is ok to have it claimed on the Sky News 10 o'clock news - peak time viewing - by a professor from the govt's own modelling unit, that cases are rising when there is no conceivable measure by which that is true? And it was recorded so they cld hv checked before broadcasting!
Australians will be holding their breath to see if China responds by halting or reducing trade.
Relations between Australia and China are already pretty dire. One assumes that the calculation in all of this is that the bridges are already on fire, and the Australians are prepared to try their luck building new ones with other partners rather than trying to put those fires out.
That, and they really don't fancy ending up as a Chinese satellite.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
Interesting choice of the word “when” rather than “if”
Well given the way the GOP are stripping voting rights it really is a case of when.
Let us face if the GOP win the House next year even if Biden/Dems win the 2024 contest by 50 million votes and the electoral college by 300 votes the GOP will steal the election like they tried earlier on this year.
They would need to win the Senate too however for objections to the EC result to stand.
However if they did it would not be the end of US democracy, merely see the elected legislature effectively appoint the President rather than the EC doing so in the event a different party controlled Congress to the party whose candidate won the EC.
There is nothing stopping the Congress electing the President under the constitution.
I would also point out since 1945 the Democrats have won the House more times than they have won the Presidency, so that would not necessarily benefit the Republicans.
In countries like Germany and Italy and India the legislature appoints the President with state representatives so it is not that uncommon
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
Not a chance, they've seen what has happened to Hong Kong.
Creative ambiguity suits them best too.
You have followed the growing call in Taiwan for a reunification referendum and still think it’s unlikely or even impossible?
Grow a dick. We're all fucked unless we stand up to and contain China.
Entirely necessary and the right thing to do for the future of humanity, and you're a naïve idiot if you disagree.
"Stand up to and contain" China?
Okay - they're winning the economic war hands down it would seem - is any part of this standing up and containing process going to involve challenging China economically and environmentally (I presume if China can't get its coal from Australia, one of its African surrogates will provide).
How do we compete with China in Africa for example? What can we provide they can't?
Do we see the PLA marching across the steppes or sweeping into the Pacific - if so, shouldn't part of the containment process involve Russia and India who both share extensive borders with China or is our focus purely on the Pacific (Japan, South Korea?).
What of North Korea and its ballistic missile capability (another country with whom China shares a border coincidentally)?
I'm not disputing the fact China is emerging (or re-emerging) as a significant global power - at least economically. The military dimension - inasmuch as the nature of warfare is moving away to other spheres and other weapons than the old-fashioned tanks, guns and ships to cyber space and, whisper it quietly perhaps, biological warfare (sorry, can't get @Leon excited at this time of evening) - is less clear.
Are we offering any kind of guarantee to Vietnam (another country bordering China) or the Philippines?
Perhaps we should be looking to re-activate SEATO or something similar - I don't know.
I sense "standing up to and containing", while an easy soundbite, needs a lot more thought and coherence to get close to an actual policy.
I see this as a first step. It's about getting liberal and democratic nations to cooperate in trade, economics, security, technology and defence to resist the authoritarian encroachment of China so it doesn't pick us off one-by-one, like it's already started to do through stifling criticism of itself, in return for trade, in New Zealand.
This is also good for China as it might force it to reconsider its policy, and its people perhaps ultimately its regime, so whatever way you look at it it's the right thing to do.
Indeed, it would be good for trade to be dealt with too.
Its a real shame that Trump pulled the USA out of the TPP, but if America could join the CPTPP along with the UK then that'd be perfect.
@shashj French state has a majority (62%+) stake in Naval Group & Thales, itself part-owned by French gov't, has another 35% stake in the company. So Australia's decision to drop Naval Group and turn to UK/US has big commercial implications for France and wider diplomatic implications.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
You think?
What do you think of the prospect of that?
No way. Ask @dixiedean who is pretty clued up about Taiwan.
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.
I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.
It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
But we ARE in this war. It is a Cold War for now, but it is a war. Do you think Britain can somehow hide from the clear and present menace of China? We cannot
It's been clear that we've been in a cold war for over a decade with only one side actually fighting. Now we've got appeasers on our own side complaining that we're finally mobilising and fighting back. We defeated the Soviets and Chinese are no different.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
Not a chance, they've seen what has happened to Hong Kong.
Creative ambiguity suits them best too.
You have followed the growing call in Taiwan for a reunification referendum and still think it’s unlikely or even impossible?
Once again it really is very striking just how distant the US is becoming from the EU. The democrats in charge of the Biden agenda have continually made moves to snub European countries and the EU. We now have a technology sharing agreement between the US, UK and Australia which covers AI, quantum computing, nuclear technologies and other emerging defence tech, none of the 27 nations are even close to a seat at the table. This is just the latest move where Europe has found itself not even making it into second best.
I'm personally not sure it's a good idea from the US to push European countries away like this, we need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China. It's no good for the US, UK and some APAC nations to start making moves to curtail China's malign influence on the world while European countries continue to treat with them and enrich them.
Germany effectively leads the EU, and is about to elect a rainbowy alliance that will make Merkel's Government look like Ronald Reagan's.
@shashj French state has a majority (62%+) stake in Naval Group & Thales, itself part-owned by French gov't, has another 35% stake in the company. So Australia's decision to drop Naval Group and turn to UK/US has big commercial implications for France and wider diplomatic implications.
Australians will be holding their breath to see if China responds by halting or reducing trade.
Relations between Australia and China are already pretty dire. One assumes that the calculation in all of this is that the bridges are already on fire, and the Australians are prepared to try their luck building new ones with other partners rather than trying to put those fires out.
That, and they really don't fancy ending up as a Chinese satellite.
Also, with this new Defence Pact Australia will feel more secure in saying to China: buy our fucking coal and iron or not, up to you, we don't want your 6G weirdness
China NEEDS a lot of stuff from Australia, which is a reliable and honest trading partner. It's not that simple for China to simply shift to buying wheat and wine from Africa or wherever. This is a way for Oz to maintain the prosperous trade, while keeping some sensible distance from China in all other forms, and not being subjugated as a vassal-state like NZ
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
I suspect the foreign policy will transition changes in government, just as it does in the US, Canada and UK, with just a change of emphasis and tone.
There are lots of bitter comments on French social media about this with people saying they should pull out of NATO, restart nuclear testing in the Pacific and that they should have sold Argentina more Exocets.
Just the usual Gallic strop turned up to 11 then.
As it happens, I wouldn't mind the French in this too given their assets and capability - but I also don't trust them.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Their press is calling it a "monstrous knock-out" and says they've been "stabbed by their allies".
They'll surely cover it before 22:30 just not live.
No excuse whatsoever
No need to cover it live until the content was known.
Don't be silly. The PM gives a press conference with the President of the United States of America (and the President of Australia) then you bloody well cover it.
Honestly, it's an important announcement that needed to be covered. But live? No.
That's ridiculous.
How often does the Prime Minister give a joint press conference with the President of the United States of America?
If those two are giving a joint press conference, that's what the news should be covering live.
FFS If it's that important why did Johnson pick the same day for his re-shuffle?
Because Thursday is his day with the kids? And then that evening he's having a curry with his mates, so Friday doesn't work either.
There are lots of bitter comments on French social media about this with people saying they should pull out of NATO, restart nuclear testing in the Pacific and that they should have sold Argentina more Exocets.
Just the usual Gallic strop turned up to 11 then.
As it happens, I wouldn't mind the French in this too given their assets and capability - but I also don't trust them.
I would actually trust the French, my issue would be (and I'll bet this is a sticking point) the technology sharing agreements would cut across a lot of EU schemes which means anything shared within a group that includes France also includes all 27 EU nations and suddenly what was a very tight, secure closed circle becomes at risk of falling into Chinese hands.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Their press is calling it a "monstrous knock-out" and says they've been "stabbed by their allies".
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
No, he's wrong. The Fear of China is real. And it overrides anything else, now
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
Not a chance, they've seen what has happened to Hong Kong.
Creative ambiguity suits them best too.
You have followed the growing call in Taiwan for a reunification referendum and still think it’s unlikely or even impossible?
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
Not a chance, they've seen what has happened to Hong Kong.
Creative ambiguity suits them best too.
You have followed the growing call in Taiwan for a reunification referendum and still think it’s unlikely or even impossible?
The level of multiculturalism in this Cabinet is way beyond anything we have ever seen. Chancellor, Home Sec, Health Sec, Business Sec, Education Sec. Its really remarkable but people still witter on about newspaper articles decades ago. Labour front bench is incredibly white by comparison.
Annoyingly good point.
The best thing about it is that's it's not even really an issue, and there's little comment about it, or point-scoring. We actually have a government that if anything is over-representative of ethnic minorities*, but nobody cares, because nobody thinks that the appointments are down to ethnicity. The appointments are political favours and intended to thwart rivals or bolster allies, as it has always been done, and skin colour doesn't come into it.
* I've not done a head count but it's a hunch, ignore all this if I'm wrong.
Yes, it is like when Blunkett was the first Home Secretary with a major disability*, fairly unremarked other than to consider his politics and abilities.
* no doubt @ydoethur will pop up to say that Sir Archibald Snot in 1826 was...
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
As much as it amuses me to hear this I would rather the French were in it, because we probably do need them.
The trouble is: I don't trust them. Not sure the Americans or Australians do too.
They need to divorce their FDSP away from the EU if they want to play.
The level of multiculturalism in this Cabinet is way beyond anything we have ever seen. Chancellor, Home Sec, Health Sec, Business Sec, Education Sec. Its really remarkable but people still witter on about newspaper articles decades ago. Labour front bench is incredibly white by comparison.
Boris has written and said some insensitive stuff. But people do seem to dwell on the same few examples over and over, and unless people can demonstrate how those are still reflective of his actions today it's not super relevant. He has plenty of other faults as a PM to focus on.
There are lots of bitter comments on French social media about this with people saying they should pull out of NATO, restart nuclear testing in the Pacific and that they should have sold Argentina more Exocets.
There are lots of bitter comments on French social media about this with people saying they should pull out of NATO, restart nuclear testing in the Pacific and that they should have sold Argentina more Exocets.
Just the usual Gallic strop turned up to 11 then.
As it happens, I wouldn't mind the French in this too given their assets and capability - but I also don't trust them.
I would actually trust the French, my issue would be (and I'll bet this is a sticking point) the technology sharing agreements would cut across a lot of EU schemes which means anything shared within a group that includes France also includes all 27 EU nations and suddenly what was a very tight, secure closed circle becomes at risk of falling into Chinese hands.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
Of course he would, or attempt to. How can you be America first if you are, gods forbid, working with people?
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal
Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
Why is it nonsense
You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.
Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
Does he support this tripartite deal to provide nuclear powered subs to Australia
I am sure the left and the Greens will be furious
Why? They have never been bothered by nuclear powered vessels, just nuclear armed ones.
Getting rid was in the last Green Party manifesto, for a variety of reasons.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Biden explicitly mentioned that he wanted France to be part of it.
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
Hahahahahahaha. 'Ripped us out of Europe'. Love your angst.
They can feel rejoin slipping away. This plays directly into the "global Britain" narrative and pushes us much further away from the EU. Our impending CPTPP membership will be the final nail in the coffin.
What a bunch a sabre rattling imbeciles you are.
I’m more concerned about the country being turned into cinders because of fucking Taiwan or something, some shit hole on the other side of the globe, than being in the fucking EU.
It’s like Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo, dragged into a war we’ve no need to be in.
That shit hole provides (the most advanced) half of the advanced chips which enable modern western economies. Deterring an attack on Taiwan is rather less mad than not doing so.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Their press is calling it a "monstrous knock-out" and says they've been "stabbed by their allies".
I don't wish to provoke Remoaners at this painful time, but this might actually be the first tangible benefit of Brexit. As in, business we would not have otherwise acquired
Of course I think Brexit means Brexit, the key benefit of Brexit was Brexiting, and returning true democracy to Westminster. But the Remoaners are dim and they want something mundane that they can point at and nod towards, like quasi-intelligent chimps, so this could be it
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Biden explicitly mentioned that he wanted France to be part of it.
No, he said he wanted France to be part of the wider Indo-Pacific strategy, that's a completely different prospect to what today's new alliance is all about.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
As much as it amuses me to hear this I would rather the French were in it, because we probably do need them.
The trouble is: I don't trust them. Not sure the Americans or Australians do too.
They need to divorce their FDSP away from the EU if they want to play.
Is that the 'force de frappe'? or frappée perhaps?
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
They aren't, Morrison still leads Albanese as preferred PM and as the last election showed in Australia who is preferred PM is a better indicator than headline voting intention
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
Interesting choice of the word “when” rather than “if”
Well given the way the GOP are stripping voting rights it really is a case of when.
Let us face if the GOP win the House next year even if Biden/Dems win the 2024 contest by 50 million votes and the electoral college by 300 votes the GOP will steal the election like they tried earlier on this year.
If you truly believe the GOP wants to steal elections and ban democracy, then why not support the banning of the GOP, like the Germans did with the Nazis? Seriously. If they are a threat to democracy as you believe, that should be your course of action.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
As much as it amuses me to hear this I would rather the French were in it, because we probably do need them.
The trouble is: I don't trust them. Not sure the Americans or Australians do too.
They need to divorce their FDSP away from the EU if they want to play.
The US has had a huge beef, going back decades, with French aerospace and defence companies.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
Saw him on ITN news . He looked dishevelled. Looks like he needs a bath, a shave and some decent clothes... and a haircut...
Can't get a haircut. By the time he's got round to asking for what he wants it's closing time.
A slob of a journalist with stupid hair, who can't be trusted with simple facts, whose wittering rambling makes him sound as ridiculous as he looks. Such a person has no place in our politics!
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
They aren't, Morrison still leads Albanese as preferred PM and as the last election showed in Australia who is preferred PM is a better indicator than headline voting intention
Despite so far behind in the pp2, yet you calling it for that man from down under already 😆
Will this announcement make it more difficult for that man to win the coming election? 🤔
There are lots of bitter comments on French social media about this with people saying they should pull out of NATO, restart nuclear testing in the Pacific and that they should have sold Argentina more Exocets.
Just the usual Gallic strop turned up to 11 then.
As it happens, I wouldn't mind the French in this too given their assets and capability - but I also don't trust them.
The French would probably have insisted that everyone else speak French.
Saw him on ITN news . He looked dishevelled. Looks like he needs a bath, a shave and some decent clothes... and a haircut...
Can't get a haircut. By the time he's got round to asking for what he wants it's closing time.
A slob of a journalist with stupid hair, who can't be trusted with simple facts, whose wittering rambling makes him sound as ridiculous as he looks. Such a person has no place in our politics!
A fair description of the PM, but what about Peston? 😕
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
They aren't, Morrison still leads Albanese as preferred PM and as the last election showed in Australia who is preferred PM is a better indicator than headline voting intention
Despite so far behind in the pp2, yet you calling it for that man from down under already 😆
Will this announcement make it more difficult for that man to win the coming election? 🤔
Every poll in the 2019 Australian election had Labor ahead on 2PP before polling day, however Morrison still led Shorten as preferred PM.
Morrison's Coalition won the election.
I would imagine this announcement will boost him a bit as strong on national security, plus as more Australians continue to get vaccinated, helped by vaccines from us, their lockdown will ease and he will get a further boost
Whilst I'm delighted by this and I hope more countries join am I the only worried that when Trump or some other Trump clone wins the White House in 2024 or some other date they end up ripping us this deal/agreement?
The RAN nuclear subs idea will also not survive an Australian Labor or Labor/Green government.
Yes. it will. This is a commitment by the entire Aussie Establishment. Is my bet. They are fucking scared of China
Dura Ace might be right, let’s wait to see what the Aussie greens and Aussie Labour say, because they are going to be in power in about six months.
They aren't, Morrison still leads Albanese as preferred PM and as the last election showed in Australia who is preferred PM is a better indicator than headline voting intention
Yeah, but Morrison is looking long in the tooth for an Aussie PM - look at this list of how long the last lot were in office
Morrison - 3 years 22 days (and counting) Turnball - 2 years 343 days Abbott - 1 year 362 days Rudd (II) - 83 days Gillard - 3 years 3 days Rudd (I) - 2 years 203 days
God knows what changed after Howard lasted 11 years.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
The French have only ever been half-engaged with NATO at the best of times.
There's a reason they were never a part of Five Eyes and its not because they aren't English-speaking.
Today was the day Ursula VDL talked about her new European Defence Union in her "State of the Union 2021" speech.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
Extract: Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
China has a Communist dictatorship, Taiwan is a capitalist democracy and was created in the first place after the civil war with the mainland, there is no love lost between them
Today was the day Ursula VDL talked about her new European Defence Union in here "State of the Union 2021" speech.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
Extract: Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal
Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
Why is it nonsense
You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.
Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
On the trade point, I'm following the trade issue closely for my job, and for technical reasons it is virtually impossible to have a US-UK trade deal before 2023 (Biden would need an authority for negotiations which he won't get this side of the mid-terms - and probably still less after them).
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
Biden's not that interested in Ireland.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
But what do you think should be done about it? Biden has made it clear the direction of traffic. So what do you propose should be done about it?
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
What would your approach to China be?
Let ‘em fucking get on with it. It’s their backyard. We don’t have an Empire anymore. We don’t rule the seas. Get over it. Yes they do things we don’t agree with. The treatment of the Uighurs is abhorrent, for example. The Taliban treat women like shit but we don’t care about them poor fuckers anymore. What are we going to do to China? Invade? Drone strikes?
They’re fucking mad.
China’s going to be the dominant global power. It’s going to happen. It’s not welcome but that’s the reality.
If we do nothing and China become the dominant global power your freedoms go too. Pouf. Gone. They will use a mixture of money and threats to control your life, and the world then slips into a dark new authoritarian age.
Wake up.
And having spent the last 25 years trading exclusively with China, exporting our manufacturing jobs and filling their banks with USD, Euros and UK pounds, in order to keep western inflation down, the penny has finally dropped.
A bit late for your big boy bravery now isn't it?
Lol. So your argument is that we're a bit late to the party.
Erh, yeah. We should have been doing this five years ago - I agree. Some of us were saying this, including me, ever since the umbrella protests in Hong Kong. However, this is a bit of a difficult argument for you to pull off since morons like you were accusing us of sabre-rattling then too.
Put your fingers in your ears and hide under your bed if it makes you feel better but otherwise please do shut-up and leave foreign policy to the grown ups
When did this moron accuse you of sabre rattling? I am in agreement that China poses a grave threat to our way of life. All I am saying is it was us that created the monster and now we are pretty much impotent to their economic dominance and firepower. A nuclear deterrent by all means, but even big hard hawks like you are toast if we tried to use them.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Taiwan needs to be turned into a multi-layered defensive booby-trapped rabbit-warren that makes Iwo Jima look like the Isle of Wight if they want to deter China.
It needs to be clear to the PRC that they'd lose tens of thousands of men and get bogged down in bloody stalemate if they tried.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
It'll blow over. If the French could undercut the US on an arms deal they'd have no compunction.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
Biden's not that interested in Ireland.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
Of course he is interested in Ireland, hence he made clear that under no circumstances whatsoever would he tolerate a hard border in Ireland.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
Perhaps not if they've been watching recent developments in China.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
Today was the day Ursula VDL talked about her new European Defence Union in here "State of the Union 2021" speech.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
Extract: Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
By Jove, he's got it! More Europe!
Sometimes it might be the answer, if they have certain ambitions. It's just not the answer to every single little thing, which is just annoying.
They’re fucking mental. They’ve ripped us out of Europe and are now lashing us to the US in time for conflict with China. Fuck me. Hasn’t Iraq and Afghanistan taught them anything?
The tripartite deal will strengthen the UK defence industry and must lead to a US trade deal
Europe has been sidelined and it will pose big questions for Starmer and indeed Europe itself
Big G. I don't wish to be rude, but what absolute nonsense.
Why is it nonsense
You said it "must lead to a US trade deal" - no evidence for that.
Also, "big questions for Starmer" - really? What are they?
On the trade point, I'm following the trade issue closely for my job, and for technical reasons it is virtually impossible to have a US-UK trade deal before 2023 (Biden would need an authority for negotiations which he won't get this side of the mid-terms - and probably still less after them).
I believe that after tonight it will be part of the Trans Pacific partnership that UK is in the process of joining
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
Isn’t the more likely outcome Taiwan has a referendum and votes to unite with China? They fled communism, but now China got more billionaires and millionaire than anyone. Being under the nationalistic umbrella might actually appeal to the Taiwanese
And the silk road China is building reaches Europe, and UK workers all use their jobs because of cheap imports? Can we blow up that dangerous road with our subs instead? Isn’t that the realistic threat. There’s numerous ways to take a country into serfdom and client state. ☹️
I thought that was a pretty likely outcome a decade ago. There was a massive thawing of relations under Hu Jintao, with direct flights opening up, and Taiwan changing its laws to allow Chinese firms to own strategic assets.
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Yet despite what governments are doing unification is still a thing amongst the people.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
France must be spitting mad about this. Not only are they losing a AU$90bn contract, they also won't have any influence on the direction of this new global alliance. It won't be in the room when new technology developments are shared and it won't have anyone in the room to tell it what happened when decisions are made.
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
That aspect of it troubles me. A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
I agree, as I said earlier, I'm worried that the US is unnecessarily throwing away the US-EU relationship now that we're not in it.
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
@benjaminhaddad A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
How long before Macron says “I wish Trump was still President”?
Trump even went to Bastille Day and praised Macron's military display. Biden is not that interested in Europe other than Ireland, his focus is containing China
Biden's not that interested in Ireland.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
Of course he is interested in Ireland, hence he made clear that under no circumstances whatsoever would he tolerate a hard border in Ireland.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
Nah bollocks.
That's been quoted by many Remain voters like yourself since before Biden was elected but that's projectionism.
Look at what Biden has actually done as President. He's frequently working closely with the PM, because the US and UK are strategic allies and Biden and Boris despite their opponent's criticism are both professional enough to understand that completely.
What has Biden actually done as President with regards to Ireland? A big fat nothing as far as I can see.
Comments
"Gérard Araud
@GerardAraud
The world is a jungle. France has just been reminded this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia. C’est la vie."
Mate, Oz is British. Never forget that.
*stifles Cockney cackle*
https://twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1438252971893141515?s=20
* I've not done a head count but it's a hunch, ignore all this if I'm wrong.
I'm personally not sure it's a good idea from the US to push European countries away like this, we need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China. It's no good for the US, UK and some APAC nations to start making moves to curtail China's malign influence on the world while European countries continue to treat with them and enrich them.
But they could grant your wish and join CAUKUS by agreeing to talk about purchasing American (and slightly British) nuclear-powered submarines once their election is out of the way.
The 2pp has, that bloke down under, toast for sure in six months.
Andrew Lilico
@andrew_lilico
·
14m
How is ok to have it claimed on the Sky News 10 o'clock news - peak time viewing - by a professor from the govt's own modelling unit, that cases are rising when there is no conceivable measure by which that is true? And it was recorded so they cld hv checked before broadcasting!
Erh, yeah. We should have been doing this five years ago - I agree. Some of us were saying this, including me, ever since the umbrella protests in Hong Kong. However, this is a bit of a difficult argument for you to pull off since morons like you were accusing us of sabre-rattling then too.
Put your fingers in your ears and hide under your bed if it makes you feel better but otherwise please do shut-up and leave foreign policy to the grown ups
The EU is needed however to contain Putin's Russia through Nato
This is also good for China as it might force it to reconsider its policy, and its people perhaps ultimately its regime, so whatever way you look at it it's the right thing to do.
That, and they really don't fancy ending up as a Chinese satellite.
However if they did it would not be the end of US democracy, merely see the elected legislature effectively appoint the President rather than the EC doing so in the event a different party controlled Congress to the party whose candidate won the EC.
There is nothing stopping the Congress electing the President under the constitution.
I would also point out since 1945 the Democrats have won the House more times than they have won the Presidency, so that would not necessarily benefit the Republicans.
In countries like Germany and Italy and India the legislature appoints the President with state representatives so it is not that uncommon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyG1p3X1l74
Its a real shame that Trump pulled the USA out of the TPP, but if America could join the CPTPP along with the UK then that'd be perfect.
French state has a majority (62%+) stake in Naval Group & Thales, itself part-owned by French gov't, has another 35% stake in the company. So Australia's decision to drop Naval Group and turn to UK/US has big commercial implications for France and wider diplomatic implications.
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1438230589665054727
Ask @dixiedean who is pretty clued up about Taiwan.
It isn't going to get better any time soon.
China NEEDS a lot of stuff from Australia, which is a reliable and honest trading partner. It's not that simple for China to simply shift to buying wheat and wine from Africa or wherever. This is a way for Oz to maintain the prosperous trade, while keeping some sensible distance from China in all other forms, and not being subjugated as a vassal-state like NZ
The sixth or seventh largest global defence power has been left out, it's a really, really big slap in their face.
Yeah but that's their default state...
As it happens, I wouldn't mind the French in this too given their assets and capability - but I also don't trust them.
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/sous-marins-la-france-poignarde-par-ses-allies-australiens-et-americains-892437.html
https://twitter.com/FarOutMag/status/1437555238165172232
'It hasn't really worked out for you as a sibling - we're moving you to weird second cousin from Great Yarmouth.'
https://twitter.com/GeoffNorcott/status/1438121628890714116
* no doubt @ydoethur will pop up to say that Sir Archibald Snot in 1826 was...
The trouble is: I don't trust them. Not sure the Americans or Australians do too.
They need to divorce their FDSP away from the EU if they want to play.
A stunning stab in the back of a key European ally involved in the Indo-Pacific. Everyone in Paris is shell shocked. The lowest point in US-France relations since 2003 (with probably deeper consequences), and a major setback to a transatlantic strategy on China.
https://twitter.com/benjaminhaddad/status/1438262378865565705
Deterring an attack on Taiwan is rather less mad than not doing so.
Of course I think Brexit means Brexit, the key benefit of Brexit was Brexiting, and returning true democracy to Westminster. But the Remoaners are dim and they want something mundane that they can point at and nod towards, like quasi-intelligent chimps, so this could be it
oh sorry
Not that's bad
or frappée perhaps?
Not any more.
Relations have really deteriorated. The Taiwanese are investing heavily in defensive weaponry, including a fleet of hunter killer submarines, and upgrading all their planes.
Will this announcement make it more difficult for that man to win the coming election? 🤔
Morrison's Coalition won the election.
I would imagine this announcement will boost him a bit as strong on national security, plus as more Australians continue to get vaccinated, helped by vaccines from us, their lockdown will ease and he will get a further boost
Morrison - 3 years 22 days (and counting)
Turnball - 2 years 343 days
Abbott - 1 year 362 days
Rudd (II) - 83 days
Gillard - 3 years 3 days
Rudd (I) - 2 years 203 days
God knows what changed after Howard lasted 11 years.
the same reasons you thought it likely a decade ago, they will never go away will they?
Firstly, the Taiwanese share the same nationalism as China, so that’s a factor in reunification that’s never going to go away. As Norman Tebbit would put it, who do the Taiwanese cheer for when the US and China play each other at cricket?
Secondly, they actually share the same capitalist idea’s now - look at the number of Billion and Millionaires in China.
Which brings us to an interesting third factor, how people overlook some things when there is opportunity to get get rich. As in many Taiwanese may see unification as making them and families richer and open up all sorts of opportunities.
A serious potential fracture in the western alliance is not to be celebrated.
There's a reason they were never a part of Five Eyes and its not because they aren't English-speaking.
France is spitting feathers partly because this is one centrepiece of their Presidency of the EU in 2022 from Jan 1st. Plus the Oz PM didn't aiui manage to get through to Mons. Macaron on the phone.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_21_4701
Extract:
Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.
First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.
We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.
Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.
Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups.
You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.
The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.
On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.
We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.
The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.
But what we need is the European Defence Union.
...
This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.
It is time for Europe to step up to the next level.
He's done far more with our PM than he has with the Taoiseach and that will continue despite rumblings to the contrary because the UK is actually useful when it comes to containing China and to be frank Dublin is not.
Biden's got far more serious concerns on his plate than dealing with Ireland right now.
It needs to be clear to the PRC that they'd lose tens of thousands of men and get bogged down in bloody stalemate if they tried.
Just because he wants to use us to help contain China does not mean he will not always be more loyal to his Irish roots than to us over the Irish border
What happened in 2003 ?
Oh I see - France opposed Iraq Invasion at UN.
https://twitter.com/TheLeadCNN/status/1438256932746375171?s=20
We need as wide an alliance as possible to take on China and make a lasting difference. I know it's not easy to herd all 27 EU nations into doing anything, especially take measures which will result in inflation, broken supply chains and 5-7 years of economic difficulty but that doesn't mean it's not worth bothering.
That's been quoted by many Remain voters like yourself since before Biden was elected but that's projectionism.
Look at what Biden has actually done as President. He's frequently working closely with the PM, because the US and UK are strategic allies and Biden and Boris despite their opponent's criticism are both professional enough to understand that completely.
What has Biden actually done as President with regards to Ireland? A big fat nothing as far as I can see.