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Are we rushing to premature conclusions about the latest COVID figures? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688
    Cookie said:

    Because curling is a proper sport where the outcome can be measured objectively.
    It is basically a sport based on Scottish people moving their rubbish bin lids with their brushes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,031
    edited July 2021

    Paul Waugh
    I understand that the Welsh govt will agree to similar arrangements because of its open border with England, while expressing deep regret at the UK Govt decision.


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1420381561518792707?s=20

    "You can come BUT YOU ARE NOT WELCOME IN WALES"

    I bet the Welsh Tourist Board are thrilled....

    Judging by the huge number of holidaymakers here in North Wales it will make no difference, and each and every one is welcome to visit our beautiful, North Wales which today has been awarded UNESCO World Heritage for its slate landscapes
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Cookie said:

    I'm with turbotubbs here.
    The BBC - and the highlights programme with Clare Balding in particular - sees sport as a human interest/reality program. Oh, the inanity! They have no faith that people wathcing can be interested in sport for its own sake. Always the interview with the family, always 'look at the emotion', always 'how proud are you?' (one of my particular bugbears - what are they expecting the answer to be, apart from 'very'?) They treat it like the X Factor.
    Clare Balding used to be quite good when all she had to do was enthuse about horses.
    It's the Olympics. Just show some sport! It's really easy telly to make. I don't mid a bit of human interest, but the BBC highlights programme is about 70% human interest to 30% actual sport. They've got the balance way off.

    Hazel Irvine, on the other hand, remains a class act.
    I think the balance, as you put it, is key. Some of the very human stories on top of or along the sporting accomplishments is great, look at the waxing lyrical on here about Daley and his personal story on top of his success, but the balance must be right.

    And it seems only fair to the competitors, for many of whom it is the most attention they will ever get in their sport, to err on the side of talking about the events as much as possible, with some side stuff.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    TOPPING said:

    Not relevant to the discussion but thanks for the info.
    Very relevant. David Broome, Harvey Smith, the aforesaid Lucinda Prior Palmer, these were top top riders who won things because of their horsemanship not because of what horse they were on. Ditto for these Olympics equestrian events. It's not about the horse, it's about who's on the horse.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Crown green bowls is a completely objective sport but I'm not sure it should be in the olympics ahead of the rings in the gymnastics.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,031

    Who would want to visit Wales?

    Scotland and England yes, but Wales?
    Many millions do and North Wales is presently full of very welcome visitors
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    Endillion said:

    Simple rule: get rid of all "sports" where scores are assigned by judges. If it can't be measured objectively, it's an art form, not a sport.
    You've just taken Tom Daley's gold away.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399

    Triathlon isn't a test of cycling ability. The good swimmer/runners can just ride behind a domestique or a rival.
    I think I disagree with that. Although of the three disciplines, I'd argue swimming requires much more technique to go fast than running and cycling.

    I love triathlon; could never do one though, unless the swimming section was the three metre sink. Which I'd win.

    Once.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Carnyx said:

    I stand corrected, thank you.

    But that's more of a tracing scheme for future Shergarburgers (or not as the case may be). Doesn't define the horse as being e.g. English except by residence. So what do they do in the OLympics?
    Apparently, it's this:
    https://inside.fei.org/content/tokyo2020-olympic-games-horse-ownershipnationality-reminder

    The nationality of the Owner of a Horse competing at the Olympic Games must be the same as the nationality of the Athlete riding the Horse.
    Only Horses owned by Owner(s) having the same nationality of the Athlete (i.e. not leased horses) can participate at the Tokyo Olympic Games.
    The Owner of the Horse and its nationality must be entered in the FEI Database by 15 January 2021.

  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Endillion said:

    Simple rule: get rid of all "sports" where scores are assigned by judges. If it can't be measured objectively, it's an art form, not a sport.
    I agree with this. Sports should be measured, not judged. Whilst I enjoy watching the Olympics it has become a bit of a carnival with the plethora of ridiculous "sports".

    If you really must have skateboarding in the Olympics then design a course and have who can complete it in the quickest time. Or measure who can jump the furthest off a ramp after a set downhill (like ski jumping).

    For swimming let the swimmers keep their World Championships with all the crazy medley combinations. For the Olympics make it freestyle-only.

    I also don't want fighting "sports" as we should have evolved beyond that. If you want to keep something like boxing then have a device to measure who can punch the hardest but get rid of the weight categories. They don't have weight categories for running or else I might be in with a chance of an Olympic medal.

    Finally, get rid of any sports that involve using an animal.

    Olympics would no longer be a carnival but a true measure of human athletic performance.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    It is basically a sport based on Scottish people moving their rubbish bin lids with their brushes.
    No, no, you are missing the point completely. Have a closer look at it. And consider whether it is a coincidence that the Scot Clerk Maxwell wrote of the curl operator.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    kle4 said:

    I think the balance, as you put it, is key. Some of the very human stories on top of or along the sporting accomplishments is great, look at the waxing lyrical on here about Daley and his personal story on top of his success, but the balance must be right.

    And it seems only fair to the competitors, for many of whom it is the most attention they will ever get in their sport, to err on the side of talking about the events as much as possible, with some side stuff.
    Daley's HI story is fine to have a bit of time on because it ended with him getting a gold medal at his fourth olympics. He's also British.
    Biles has already won plenty of medals, and it's a USA story really.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,680

    She bought all the best horses?
    I would like to see the clip of La Prior-Palmer being shrugged by her horse into the same lake twice, if it resurfaces.

    Fortunately she did.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Endillion said:

    Apparently, it's this:
    https://inside.fei.org/content/tokyo2020-olympic-games-horse-ownershipnationality-reminder

    The nationality of the Owner of a Horse competing at the Olympic Games must be the same as the nationality of the Athlete riding the Horse.
    Only Horses owned by Owner(s) having the same nationality of the Athlete (i.e. not leased horses) can participate at the Tokyo Olympic Games.
    The Owner of the Horse and its nationality must be entered in the FEI Database by 15 January 2021.

    Thank you! So basically if one wanted to use a Japanese horse Ione would get a wealthy compatriot to buy the nag. Simple as that. But clear enough.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    kle4 said:

    Hmm, I generally agree, but what about things like boxing and taekwondo? Dont multiple judges have to record the scoring hits?

    Itd be a shame not to have gymnastics or diving etc, but it can be hard to tell sometimes why one is .x better than another.

    I think we'd lose too many.
    Boxing and taekwondo rely on 'did x hit y' - unfortunately that is hard to tell in practice sometimes but in principle three perfect judges should judge it the same. If competitors could be wired up a la fencing, you could eliminate the judges (not that I'm saying they should).

    Quite happy to lose gymnastics and diving, to be honest. They're the respectable end of a scale which goes down to synchronised swimming and breakdancing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    I find the BBC headline on Biles rather weird...Why 'superhuman' Simone Biles could change attitudes

    Isn't the whole issue being that she isn't superhuman, she isn't a robot that can perform perfectly 100 times out of 100 regardless of everything else.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    You've just taken Tom Daley's gold away.
    He can still have a gold medal for being best at something. It just isn't something that I recognise as competitive sport.

    Melt down his medal and reshape it into an Oscar, for all I care.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    kinabalu said:

    You've just taken Tom Daley's gold away.
    His Olympic gold, yes. No one is saying to get rid of the non-Olympic diving competitions. It just makes the Olympics about measuring who is the best rather than judging who looks the prettiest.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698

    I think I disagree with that. Although of the three disciplines, I'd argue swimming requires much more technique to go fast than running and cycling.

    I love triathlon; could never do one though, unless the swimming section was the three metre sink. Which I'd win.

    Once.
    Some perv came up with a way to watch women cycling and running in swim suits. That's triathlon.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399
    Carnyx said:

    Thank you! So basically if one wanted to use a Japanese horse Ione would get a wealthy compatriot to buy the nag. Simple as that. But clear enough.
    AIUI, the horses and riders practice together for years. You cannot just swap nags easily and compete.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203

    Paul Waugh
    I understand that the Welsh govt will agree to similar arrangements because of its open border with England, while expressing deep regret at the UK Govt decision.


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1420381561518792707?s=20

    "You can come BUT YOU ARE NOT WELCOME IN WALES"

    I bet the Welsh Tourist Board are thrilled....

    This reminds me that the devolution settlement is a hotchpotch.

    Although I’m instinctively in favour of more devolution, I do find that the Union seems to have divested itself of various powers (like border control!) that are naturally and rightly held at the national level.

    I actually agree with Gove’s thoughts on this - so far as I can divine them - and welcome the undermining of the Sewell Convention.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835

    It is basically a sport based on Scottish people moving their rubbish bin lids with their brushes.
    Doesn't make it not a sport. Pentathlon is based on being a postman in revolutionary France but is quite compelling.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    edited July 2021
    That article seems to suggest the reason for not accepting the UK application is a pretext, that is, phoney. So it certainly does seem concerning from that piece but there seems nothing that can be done if false reasons are being given for rejection.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203

    Judging by the huge number of holidaymakers here in North Wales it will make no difference, and each and every one is welcome to visit our beautiful, North Wales which today has been awarded UNESCO World Heritage for its slate landscapes
    Congrats.
    For the UNESCO award.
    Hope you make a better fist of it than Liverpool managed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,364
    kle4 said:

    That article seems to suggest the reason for not accepting the UK application is a pretext, that is, phoney. So it certainly does seem concerning from that piece but there seems nothing that can be done if false reasons are being hiven for rejection.
    Well we were warned about punishment beatings, weren't we? ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    This reminds me that the devolution settlement is a hotchpotch.

    Although I’m instinctively in favour of more devolution, I do find that the Union seems to have divested itself of various powers (like border control!) that are naturally and rightly held at the national level.

    I actually agree with Gove’s thoughts on this - so far as I can divine them - and welcome the undermining of the Sewell Convention.
    Er, border controls are held at the UK level, so UK incompetence or otherwise is not an argument per se for or against devolution. It's travel within each nation that is controlled at the devolved level (and, of course, for England, by the same lot as for the UK).
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,928
    AlistairM said:

    His Olympic gold, yes. No one is saying to get rid of the non-Olympic diving competitions. It just makes the Olympics about measuring who is the best rather than judging who looks the prettiest.
    Perhaps we need to train an AI to do the judging...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    Cookie said:

    I'm with turbotubbs here.
    The BBC - and the highlights programme with Clare Balding in particular - sees sport as a human interest/reality program. Oh, the inanity! They have no faith that people wathcing can be interested in sport for its own sake. Always the interview with the family, always 'look at the emotion', always 'how proud are you?' (one of my particular bugbears - what are they expecting the answer to be, apart from 'very'?) They treat it like the X Factor.
    Clare Balding used to be quite good when all she had to do was enthuse about horses.
    It's the Olympics. Just show some sport! It's really easy telly to make. I don't mid a bit of human interest, but the BBC highlights programme is about 70% human interest to 30% actual sport. They've got the balance way off.

    Hazel Irvine, on the other hand, remains a class act.
    You're on the wrong end of this one. Simone Biles is a super high profile athlete and she, for whatever reason, has had mental health problems culminating in her withdrawal from the Olympics.

    It is entirely right and proper that the BBC should spend time examining why this should be and to support the decision so as to encourage others who might look at Biles and gain some inspiration for their own challenges, whether they are Olympic athletes or shelf stackers at Aldi (@TSE trigger warning).

    To sweep it under the carpet when it is an element of the whole process of Olympic sports is just the same as ignoring the legions of PTSD sufferers after our escapades in Iraq and Afghan.

    Or indeed those suffering from the effects of the past 18 months.

    We have seen on PB already that plenty of posters have "failed" the "stiff upper lip" test and it is entirely right and proper that people should be understood and supported when they have the courage to discuss such feelings. And also that in the case of high profile "celebrities" or role models, that such examples should be used pour encourager les autres.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    RobD said:

    Well we were warned about punishment beatings, weren't we? ;)
    It's why my dad voted remain.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    edited July 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Crown green bowls is a completely objective sport but I'm not sure it should be in the olympics ahead of the rings in the gymnastics.

    Or darts. Instead of watching obsessional types poncing around, pushing the outer limits of what the human body can do, we could be seeing the likes of Peter "snakebite" Wright slamming the 180s and then finishing on double top like a dead eyed assassin.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698

    AIUI, the horses and riders practice together for years. You cannot just swap nags easily and compete.
    In Modern Pentathlon the competitors ride horses they don't know. The horses are drawn at random.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    kinabalu said:

    You've just taken Tom Daley's gold away.
    It doesn't make it a sport just because a British person is good at it either! Otherwise we'd be able to include queueing and self-loathing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    Some perv came up with a way to watch women cycling and running in swim suits. That's triathlon.
    Truly a great man (I'm assuming).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688
    kinabalu said:

    Or darts. Instead of watching obsessional types poncing around and pushing the outer limits of what the human body can do we could be seeing the likes of Peter "snakebite" Wright slamming the 180s and then finishing on double top like a dead eyed assassin.
    I've never really taken to snooker or darts as they are pub games.

    Have to admire the mathematical abilities of snooker and darts players though.

    Never seen them screw up a finish like say South Africa in 2003.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    The UK's largest tobacco firm says it sees cannabis as part of its future as it tries to move away from selling traditional cigarettes.

    British American Tobacco said it wanted to "accelerate" its transformation by reducing the health impact of its products.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57995285
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254

    The UK's largest tobacco firm says it sees cannabis as part of its future as it tries to move away from selling traditional cigarettes.

    British American Tobacco said it wanted to "accelerate" its transformation by reducing the health impact of its products.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57995285

    Vote Lib Dem!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688

    The UK's largest tobacco firm says it sees cannabis as part of its future as it tries to move away from selling traditional cigarettes.

    British American Tobacco said it wanted to "accelerate" its transformation by reducing the health impact of its products.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57995285

    They should re-enter F1.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Diving judging is very objective I think (Or should be)

    i. Were the divers synchronised.
    ii. Was the correct position held throughout the dive
    iii. Were the correct number of twists and rolls performed
    iv. Was the water entered vertically.
    v. Was there excess splash (Related to iv)

    The judo is the one that had me scratching my head this morning.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    Carnyx said:

    Er, border controls are held at the UK level, so UK incompetence or otherwise is not an argument per se for or against devolution. It's travel within each nation that is controlled at the devolved level (and, of course, for England, by the same lot as for the UK).
    Yes you’re right.

    But “travel within” amounts to a kind of border control. And it is daft to have this devolved in my view.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    In Modern Pentathlon the competitors ride horses they don't know. The horses are drawn at random.
    I have no clue how someone can spend 4 years training for an Olympic event knowing that an (un)lucky dip selection of a horse will cock it all up for you. It's one thing to lose because you made a mistake, quite another because you get given a horse which refuses to jump.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited July 2021

    Some perv came up with a way to watch women cycling and running in swim suits. That's triathlon.
    He's an amateur compared to the genius behind beach handball and volleyball, although that guy seems to have finally been rumbled.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57940896
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    Carnyx said:

    Eh? He was a mathematician turned modern linguist.
    Yes. But then into Fine Art, starting there.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724

    AIUI, the horses and riders practice together for years. You cannot just swap nags easily and compete.

    Of course you can - therein lies the test of skill.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    edited July 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Diving judging is very objective I think (Or should be)

    i. Were the divers synchronised.
    ii. Was the correct position held throughout the dive
    iii. Were the correct number of twists and rolls performed
    iv. Was the water entered vertically.
    v. Was there excess splash (Related to iv)

    The judo is the one that had me scratching my head this morning.

    My understanding is that each possible dive also have a predefined difficulty multiplier, which is crucial to the overall potential score.

    So again, before you attempt a dive, everybody knows what that this, rather than some dodgy judge saying well Tom's dive wasn't as hard as the Chinese divers one so lower points after the fact.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    kinabalu said:

    Very relevant. David Broome, Harvey Smith, the aforesaid Lucinda Prior Palmer, these were top top riders who won things because of their horsemanship not because of what horse they were on. Ditto for these Olympics equestrian events. It's not about the horse, it's about who's on the horse.
    Dolt.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688
    Pulpstar said:

    Diving judging is very objective I think (Or should be)

    i. Were the divers synchronised.
    ii. Was the correct position held throughout the dive
    iii. Were the correct number of twists and rolls performed
    iv. Was the water entered vertically.
    v. Was there excess splash (Related to iv)

    The judo is the one that had me scratching my head this morning.

    Portugal must be gutted that Manchester United blocked Bruno Fernandes from entering this year's olympic diving competitions.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    TOPPING said:

    Of course you can - therein lies the test of skill.
    You might be able to do it in showjumping and even x-country with the right horse (Could be a bit dangerous with the wrong one) but no chance in the dressage I think.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    That article seems to suggest the reason for not accepting the UK application is a pretext, that is, phoney. So it certainly does seem concerning from that piece but there seems nothing that can be done if false reasons are being given for rejection.
    As far as I can tell from reading Twitter (I know), this is the EU being spiteful in a way that hurts both U.K. and EU citizens.

    There is some modest collateral damage to the U.K. legal industry.

    I presume this is being done in retribution for the U.K. fucking about with our international treaty making.

    Stupidity and spite begets stupidity and spite.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630
    TOPPING said:

    Plenty of time for all of it. As for "wittering" about her, as mentioned, it is important for many reasons some of which I articulated earlier that they should spend more time explaining the context.

    Same goes for a GB “team”.
    We do! I dont get your point here. We have a maximum of three athletes in say the 100m. The eu currently gets 3 x27, so 81...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    edited July 2021

    I find the BBC headline on Biles rather weird...Why 'superhuman' Simone Biles could change attitudes

    Isn't the whole issue being that she isn't superhuman, she isn't a robot that can perform perfectly 100 times out of 100 regardless of everything else.

    Yes, it's part of the celebration of mental health discussion that seems counterproductive and unhealthy.

    In this, she's not special, and that's the positive point about it.

    Reminds me of a gag from Rio where an opening speech was saying it was showing we are all equal, when in fact the Olympics is about showing people are not equal and literally making the better athlete stand higher, less equally, than others.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Sheffield Forgemasters nationalised after £2.6m takeover by MoD

    Potentially interesting ideological shift at play here? Among the Tories' first acts after taking power in 2010 was to scrap an £80m loan to Forgemasters, which Labour had approved.


    https://twitter.com/RJPartington/status/1420337153721180167?s=20

    Looks like a saving of £77.4 million.....
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Citius, Altius, Fortius.

    Faster, Higher, Stronger.

    No mention of "most subjective points awarded once outliers are removed, averaged over a number of pre-determined events or attempts."

    Either get rid of anything that doesn't fit into the original mission statement, or update it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited July 2021

    My understanding is that each possible dive also have a predefined difficulty multiplier, which is crucial to the overall potential score.

    So again, before you attempt a dive, everybody knows what that this, rather than some dodgy judge saying well Tom's dive wasn't as hard as the Chinese divers one so lower points after the fact.
    Yes, it's one of the more simple subjective sports. Taekwondo otoh even though it's supposed to be completely objective looked a bit random as to when points were won...

    In fact boxing switched from an objective (Punch count) to a subjective scoring system (10 pt must) and it's much improved for it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724

    Some perv came up with a way to watch women cycling and running in swim suits. That's triathlon.
    If I were attracted to blokes, I would be glued to the Men's "synchro". Bleedin' heck all those abs and whatnot and teeny tiny trunks.

    Ooh-er.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,364
    Endillion said:

    Citius, Altius, Fortius.

    Faster, Higher, Stronger.

    No mention of "most subjective points awarded once outliers are removed, averaged over a number of pre-determined events or attempts."

    Either get rid of anything that doesn't fit into the original mission statement, or update it.

    What about the long jump?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    kinabalu said:

    Or darts. Instead of watching obsessional types poncing around, pushing the outer limits of what the human body can do, we could be seeing the likes of Peter "snakebite" Wright slamming the 180s and then finishing on double top like a dead eyed assassin.
    In the list of events and potential events from 'clearly a sport' to 'not a sport', darts, snooker and crown green bowls all rank higher than gymnatsics or diving.

    I'd definitely rather have olympic darts than olympic gymnastics or diving. Snooker probably takes too long to be practical though - need some shortened form a la rugby 7s. Crown green bowls can go in, but only as a blow for regional pride over flat green bowls (both of which are effectively summer curling).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399
    TOPPING said:

    Of course you can - therein lies the test of skill.
    I was talking about dressage.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    Sheffield Forgemasters nationalised after £2.6m takeover by MoD

    Potentially interesting ideological shift at play here? Among the Tories' first acts after taking power in 2010 was to scrap an £80m loan to Forgemasters, which Labour had approved.


    https://twitter.com/RJPartington/status/1420337153721180167?s=20

    Looks like a saving of £77.4 million.....

    Loans are usually paid off - and I suspect that lack of £80m in working capital is probably some of the reason behind the current issues.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    kinabalu said:

    Yes. But then into Fine Art, starting there.
    But no different from any other sideline. He could have ended up doing drama or tortoise racing or whatever for a living, but the basis of his official studies and presence was not art. There was no art school (and Blunt was a historian of art AFAIK).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,521

    I've never really taken to snooker or darts as they are pub games.

    Have to admire the mathematical abilities of snooker and darts players though.

    Never seen them screw up a finish like say South Africa in 2003.
    I'm no better than average at snooker and pool, but find them good fun to play. Snooker is more a club game, pool the pub game.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    edited July 2021
    Endillion said:

    He can still have a gold medal for being best at something. It just isn't something that I recognise as competitive sport.

    Melt down his medal and reshape it into an Oscar, for all I care.
    If you're into the diving you can tell who's good and who isn't. Eg Tom and partner's final dive, obvious it was going to get a massive score. Perfectly in synch (the two became one), vertical entry, no splash.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688

    Sheffield Forgemasters nationalised after £2.6m takeover by MoD

    Potentially interesting ideological shift at play here? Among the Tories' first acts after taking power in 2010 was to scrap an £80m loan to Forgemasters, which Labour had approved.


    https://twitter.com/RJPartington/status/1420337153721180167?s=20

    Looks like a saving of £77.4 million.....

    I love that company, I will still never forget at school back in circa 1992 my friend realising his father was an MI6 spy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    Perhaps we need to train an AI to do the judging...
    I'm 100% certain they are. But who tells it what a good attempt looks like for its training?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    AlistairM said:

    I have no clue how someone can spend 4 years training for an Olympic event knowing that an (un)lucky dip selection of a horse will cock it all up for you. It's one thing to lose because you made a mistake, quite another because you get given a horse which refuses to jump.
    Richard III called, and said he hears the world's smallest violin playing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    edited July 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    Yes, it's one of the more simple subjective sports. Taekwondo otoh even though it's supposed to be completely objective looked a bit random as to when points were won...

    In fact boxing switched from an objective (Punch count) to a subjective scoring system (10 pt must) and it's much improved for it.
    The punch aspect of Taekwondo is definitely odd for the uninitiated. There is a clear 2 points for a kick to a certain area of the body, 3 to the head (and KO if you basically take their head off), but the punching, it seems like you have to convince the judges it was super hard, but in reality it is you have to punch them multiple times super hard before you might get a point.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    On another note, has anyone been watching the volleyball? There now seems to be a position of a 'libero' - usually the shortest player in the team - who isn't allowed to spike the ball, or play the ball up for another player to spike. He also has to wear a different kit to everyone else. Smacks of a schoolboy rule for the unpopular kid.

    Volleyball is definitely a sport, by the way. Though my wife, in an uncharacterisitc fit of unreasonable anger when watching it, announced that she could never respect a volleyball player, and had she discovered, when we were dating, that I had been a volleyball player she would have called it off then and there.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    I love that company, I will still never forget at school back in circa 1992 my friend realising his father was an MI6 spy.
    Got to admit that would be a day that would be hard to forget...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    The punch aspect of Taekwondo is definitely odd for the uninitiated. There is a clear 2 points for a kick to a certain area of the body, 3 to the head (and KO if you basically take their head off), but the punching, it seems like you have to convince the judges it was super hard, but in reality it is you have to punch them multiple times super hard before you might get a point.
    Lots of the head kicks end up being well you wouldn't really do much damage with them in an actual fight, more trying to tickle your opponent's sensor with your toes as they lean backwards to avoid giving the points away.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    kinabalu said:

    If you're into the diving you can tell who's good and who isn't. Eg Tom and partner's final dive, obvious it was going to get a massive score. Perfectly in synch (the two became one), vertical entry, no splash.
    If you're ito Strictly Come Dancing you can tell who's good and who isn't. Doesn't make it a sport though.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    If you're into the diving you can tell who's good and who isn't. Eg Tom and partner's final dive, obvious it was going to get a massive score. Perfectly in synch (the two became one), vertical entry, no splash.
    I can also tell who's a good actor and who isn't. I just have no way of knowing who's the best in the world right now, and by how much.

    I grant diving is less subjective than acting, and also than many of the more obviously judgment-based Olympic events. But, one has to draw a line somewhere, and it seems to me simplest to draw it between "no subjectivity" and "some subjectivity".
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    edited July 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    You might be able to do it in showjumping and even x-country with the right horse (Could be a bit dangerous with the wrong one) but no chance in the dressage I think.
    Hmm I don't know enough about dressage but surely - you tell me - the aids for a flying change are the aids for a flying change, etc? If you had 10 horses which had all been schooled in dressage to the same degree...then it would be an interesting test of the jockey.

    And again hence my thinking that the horses for the MP must all be of a similar ability.

    Because you couldn't have a horse that was not schooled in dressage competing in the dressage and for the MP all the horses must be able to jump round a showjumping course and then it's up to the jockey to get the best out of them.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    I find the BBC headline on Biles rather weird...Why 'superhuman' Simone Biles could change attitudes

    Isn't the whole issue being that she isn't superhuman, she isn't a robot that can perform perfectly 100 times out of 100 regardless of everything else.

    TOPPING said:

    If I were attracted to blokes, I would be glued to the Men's "synchro". Bleedin' heck all those abs and whatnot and teeny tiny trunks.

    Ooh-er.
    Speaking as one who is I prefer more clothes and more imagination..
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,932
    Endillion said:

    Citius, Altius, Fortius.

    Faster, Higher, Stronger.

    No mention of "most subjective points awarded once outliers are removed, averaged over a number of pre-determined events or attempts."

    Either get rid of anything that doesn't fit into the original mission statement, or update it.

    What's the Winter Olympics mission statement? Skiddier, Slippier, Slidier?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Yes you’re right.

    But “travel within” amounts to a kind of border control. And it is daft to have this devolved in my view.
    That's certainly a mathematically novel defintion of border. And control of travel is an integral part of covid restrictions anyway.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949
    Cookie said:

    In the list of events and potential events from 'clearly a sport' to 'not a sport', darts, snooker and crown green bowls all rank higher than gymnatsics or diving.

    I'd definitely rather have olympic darts than olympic gymnastics or diving. Snooker probably takes too long to be practical though - need some shortened form a la rugby 7s. Crown green bowls can go in, but only as a blow for regional pride over flat green bowls (both of which are effectively summer curling).
    Snooker doesn't take that long. The WC lasts as long as the Olympics.
    Plenty of tournaments are played over a few days.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    Pulpstar said:

    You might be able to do it in showjumping and even x-country with the right horse (Could be a bit dangerous with the wrong one) but no chance in the dressage I think.
    Happens all the time. I know you have a few ponies and not sure what you do with them but I assure you people jump onto horses they don't know and sail round the countryside or over some coloured poles all the time.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824

    I've never really taken to snooker or darts as they are pub games.

    Have to admire the mathematical abilities of snooker and darts players though.

    Never seen them screw up a finish like say South Africa in 2003.
    Yes, they are played in pubs. I'm happy to call them sports - and indeed I'm a fan of both - but I don't think they're a fit for the Olympic Games because of that. Same reason I'd oppose the inclusion of dominoes or cribbage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    edited July 2021

    I was talking about dressage.
    As I said given a bunch of horses that have been schooled in dressage I'm sure a good dressage rider could do a pretty decent round on any of them.

    But it's not my particular bag, the old dressage.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    Pulpstar said:

    Lots of the head kicks end up being well you wouldn't really do much damage with them in an actual fight, more trying to tickle your opponent's sensor with your toes as they lean backwards to avoid giving the points away.
    Maybe they should do it under Kyokushin Karate rules instead. Similar range of strikes allowed (no head punches, head kicks allowed, although I don't think TKD allows knees and thigh kicks), but instead of trying to touch the opponent it's full contact with the win coming from knocking them off their feet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    "With Doctor Who, we don't really have enough – everything on Doctor Who falls to pieces, all of the props fall to pieces and the costumes have to be stuck together with duct tape and velcro and stuff.

    "With this, everybody looked as good in real life as they look in the movies. They weren't all just held together with safety pins.

    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a37131320/the-suicide-squad-peter-capaldi-doctor-who/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    As far as I can tell from reading Twitter (I know), this is the EU being spiteful in a way that hurts both U.K. and EU citizens.

    There is some modest collateral damage to the U.K. legal industry.

    I presume this is being done in retribution for the U.K. fucking about with our international treaty making.

    Stupidity and spite begets stupidity and spite.
    Yes, all it really does is make it more difficult for contracting parties in both territories seek recompense from the other jurisdiction. The exclusion of the UK really helps no one, c'est la vie, this is the relationship the EU wants with the UK. The world will keep turning afterwards and this will turn out to be yet another thing that doesn't drag the UK back into the EU or into some kind of unilateral alignment.

    Wrt to banking and finance there is currently a pretty wide ranging review of regulations now that equivalence is off the table. One does wonder whether the EU will regret not working harder to bind the UK to a very narrow lane of similarity on financial regulations by granting conditional equivalence for at least 2-4 years. Having a gigantic competitor with the market makers outside the bloc and outside of the regulatory sphere is not ideal. I fear that this is what they're doing in the legal sector right now and will repeat the mistakes in finance.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,928
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    I'm 100% certain they are. But who tells it what a good attempt looks like for its training?
    The human judges, I presume. As long as they aren't judging professional boxing...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    Endillion said:

    I can also tell who's a good actor and who isn't. I just have no way of knowing who's the best in the world right now, and by how much.

    I grant diving is less subjective than acting, and also than many of the more obviously judgment-based Olympic events. But, one has to draw a line somewhere, and it seems to me simplest to draw it between "no subjectivity" and "some subjectivity".
    Riz Ahmed.

    And for some time now.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    What's the Winter Olympics mission statement? Skiddier, Slippier, Slidier?
    Colder, Dangerouser, Boringer*.

    *Than the regular Olympics
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    felix said:

    Speaking as one who is I prefer more clothes and more imagination..
    I stand corrected.

    I am just amazed at it. It is a source of wonder with the technology these days that they manage to transpose Tom Daley's head onto my body and it looks completely natural.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, they are played in pubs. I'm happy to call them sports - and indeed I'm a fan of both - but I don't think they're a fit for the Olympic Games because of that. Same reason I'd oppose the inclusion of dominoes or cribbage.
    Ten reasons why chess is a sport.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786

    And grateful to me as well for helping filling in the huge gaps in your knowledge of (classical) history.

    There may well be a thread this weekend comparing Boris Johnson to Marcus Antonius.
    Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your women?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    We have heard a lot about how Johnson signed up to the protocol in haste expecting to sort out the problems of how it would work in practice later, but something similar is also true of the EU side. The protocol set out the general principles: that Northern Ireland would simultaneously be an integral part of the UK and also, for the purposes of keeping an open border with the Republic of Ireland, part of the EU single market. That would mean checks on goods going from the rest of the UK to Northern Ireland if they were likely to go on to the republic.

    Johnson was guilty of assuming that those checks would be so “light touch” no one would notice them; but the EU was guilty of assuming that they would offer absolute protection to the single market without imposing costs on the people of Northern Ireland.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/northern-ireland-brexit-protocol-b1892063.html
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited July 2021
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688
    eek said:

    Got to admit that would be a day that would be hard to forget...
    It did get a bit scary when we found out what happened to Gerald Bull.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    TOPPING said:

    Happens all the time. I know you have a few ponies and not sure what you do with them but I assure you people jump onto horses they don't know and sail round the countryside or over some coloured poles all the time.
    I'd agree generally but the risk of death for the horse is higher in NH but with cross country it's higher for the rider (Rotational falls)
    Dressage is unlike cross country, national hunt or showjumping though. It's a more subtle art, needs a connection between horse and rider (There's probably far fewer horses that can do it very well too)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    edited July 2021
    ping said:
    "The research by Ofcom, based on audience surveys" - Loads of people don't want to admit to anybody they actually love the sidebar of shame.

    There is clearly something not quite right about the survey as "In print, the Guardian and Observer were the fifth most-read papers", but we know from sales figures that isn't true.

    Those who monitor traffic to websites, Mail is known to have a huge audience, far bigger than everybody else, hence why they get so much advertising and make decent money.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    TOPPING said:

    Riz Ahmed.

    And for some time now.
    Yeah? By how much, though?

    I believe the accepted SI unit is the mO (micro-Olivier).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    The growth rate in England hospital admissions is slowing quite fast now. They’re still going up overall, but Monday’s (830) was 10% up the previous week (752). It was 20% yesterday.

    Beds occupied now at 5,182, only slightly up on 5,163 yesterday.


    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1420397083958251521?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    Carnyx said:

    But no different from any other sideline. He could have ended up doing drama or tortoise racing or whatever for a living, but the basis of his official studies and presence was not art. There was no art school (and Blunt was a historian of art AFAIK).
    Well his graduate research was in French art history, then parleyed into a career in that field. No actual art school, no, but he did "mix art and Oxbridge" so I think my comment was technically accurate.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd agree generally but the risk of death for the horse is higher in NH but with cross country it's higher for the rider (Rotational falls)
    Dressage is unlike cross country, national hunt or showjumping though. It's a more subtle art, needs a connection between horse and rider (There's probably far fewer horses that can do it very well too)
    I will happily take your word for it!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited July 2021
    ping said:
    The Guardian is not fighting Mailonline for market share. It is fighting the New York Times to be publication of choice for the English-speaking liberal world.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    RobD said:

    What about the long jump?
    Higher, if you rotate everything by 90 degrees.
This discussion has been closed.