The betting markets are over-stating Andy Burnham’s chances of succeeding Starmer – politicalbetting

Brom said:

Andy_JS said:

Brom said:

IshmaelZ said:

Brom said:

IshmaelZ said:

Brom said:

tlg86 said:

Brom said:

The BBC are a disgrace for showing that. They should have cut back to the studio immediately. I couldn’t watch that, was ghoulish.

To be honest, anyone is free to turn off.

Yes, we should definitely get in the habit of filming people dying. The option and decision was to not have this sick invasive footage going into millions of homes. I appreciate the pundits were underprepared but that’s live TV.

I did switch over but then of course I didn’t know when it was safe to switch back.

Why would you want to switch back? Someone was in your perhaps overdramatised view "dying" but you hoped there was a chance of the march was being continued?

Probably because I wanted an update on his condition without watching him lying motionless on the floor? I feel that’s quite a normal approach to these things.

Fair enough, assuming you know or are related to him.

Hello sociopath

We don't need to get angry with each other because of what happened in the match.

Are you new to PB?

Yes and someone else earlier was saying that when you're wrong the best thing is just to say so and move on.

That would decimate posting volumes on here. Could actually kill the site.

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Boris's Ratings are up 3 from last time, Sir Keirs are down 1

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Stockholm syndrome lol

Hardly a surprise considering the media's coverage of the issues.

Seems massively unfair on Denmark to finish this game after having to watch a team mate need CPR.

isam said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Boris's Ratings are up 3 from last time, Sir Keirs are down 1

According to that Opinium, only Green Voters are in favour of restrictions being lifted on the 21st

Tory lead now averaging more than 10%. Tory solid on ~43, difference is always Labour vs Lib Thingies + Eco-Fascists.

rcs1000 said:

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

I mean, how could that happen?

What I love about the

That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.

As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

And about 1,000 other examples.

No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed

Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

The other says "Market".


And I'm the one ill informed?

Are you high?

You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.

You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

And I'm the one not doing my research?

I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail

I did the same search on Google

Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.

Yes, it’s the same market

Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…

So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?

Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3

Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.

Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?

No, he had not proven it.

Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.

If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Footblers and covid.... # 2056

Copa America 2021: Twelve of Venezuela's players and coaching staff test positive for Covid-19 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57456469

beentheredonethat said:

NickPalmer said:

Philip_Thompson said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

ManchesterKurt said:

algarkirk said:

nico679 said:

I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

Membership of the Common Market or even just signing up to aligning standards for agriculture.

Would have passed parliament and EU would have agreed.

No it wouldn't pass Parliament. Remember the indicative votes - that was put forwards and was rejected. 🤦‍♂️

Plus at the referendum we didn't vote to Remain either.

I reckon would have passed, easily.

Aligning agricultural standards to the EU is leaving the EU.

It is just your ideology standing in the way and causing the rise in tensions in N Ireland in doing so.

If it would have passed, why was it rejected in the indicative votes?

Of course my ideology rejects it and my ideology has no more of a reason to bow down to alignment, than telling the Irish they must leave the EU with us. Any solution needs to recognise that Ireland wants to remain and we want to leave and treat all parties with respect.

Respect is always good. But the Conservative Party also claims to be hard-headed about markets. Losing access for food exports to the EU and Northern Ireland so that we can in theory lower our standards, while insisting that we don't actually want to, makes no sense.

Good grief. You lot simply won’t accept the fact you lost the referendum will you?
The reason we won is precisely the lack of respect for the wishes of the electorate you are now showing. You simply refuse to accept we want what we want. It is arrogance and a total and utter disgrace.

You want lower food standards?

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Perhaps we could all start judging people on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin and see if it works.

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.

algarkirk said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Perhaps we could all start judging people on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin and see if it works.

Woooo steady on there...

SandyRentool said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

We can turn to the lyrics of The Jam once again:

"And the public wants what the public gets
But I don't get what this society wants"

Although on this, I'm on the side of the majority.

I'd be curious to see polling on whether people think we should reverse the last reopening.

My dad - who's spent the last two weeks saying that we will open up on 21 June - thinks that if they're worried, then they should shut pubs etc. And I think he's right.

What happens when things don't get better in three weeks time? They'll extend and extend and extend. It would be better to reverse the last reopening and get cases down and give a bit more time for the vaccines to take effect.

justin124 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Tory lead now averaging more than 10%. Tory solid on ~43, difference is always Labour vs Lib Thingies + Eco-Fascists.

True - though only 5 months ago Opinium showed Labour ahead.The pollster is now showing the same Tory lead as just post Easter. In itself , this poll does not imply a Tory gain at Batley&Spen - indeed it shows a small swing to Labour of 1.35% compared with December 2019 which should indicate an increased Labour majority in terms of vote share. If,however, the seat is lost, Starmer will be toast - all his authority will be destroyed.

You are nothing but consistent.....always seeing that bright spark for Labour.

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

I mean, how could that happen?

What I love about the

That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.

As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

And about 1,000 other examples.

No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed

Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

The other says "Market".


And I'm the one ill informed?

Are you high?

You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.

You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

And I'm the one not doing my research?

I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail

I did the same search on Google

Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.

Yes, it’s the same market

Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…

So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?

Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3

Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.

Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?

No, he had not proven it.

Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.

If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?

Nothing is certain, and Robert is right, I certainly did not prove the virus came from the lab, that would make me the internet hero of the century (or the guy who started World War 3), all I proved is that there is a laboratory near the wet market, which might have been a BSL2 centre of risky corona gain-of-function research

What was interesting in that whole exchange was how a smart guy, Robert Smithson, leapt immediately to the conclusion that I had posted some insane Trumpite conspiratorial bollocks, which needed just ten seconds Googling to refute - only for ten seconds googling to show I was completely right, and he was embarrassingly wrong, on all counts


Why this reaction? I think the original gaslighting by the scientific/political Establishment: "lab leak" is mad, Trump believes it, all viruses come from animals naturally - has been notably successful. It has duped many people

algarkirk said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Perhaps we could all start judging people on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin and see if it works.

We should judge people on the choice of their shoes and general attire.

ydoethur said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.

Only a bit? Very generous.

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Before this taking the knee malarkey, wasn't the last time the England team made a political gesture before kick off that time they all gave a Nazi salute away to Germany?

FrancisUrquhart said:

ydoethur said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.

Only a bit? Very generous.

Well, they have been playing India and New Zealand, by some distance the two best sides in the world right now. But even so, it’s remarkable how they keep finding new and innovative ways to fail with the bat.

FrancisUrquhart said:

solarflare said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.

Were there a few boos?

Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.

HYUFD said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx

I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free

FrancisUrquhart said:

ydoethur said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.

Only a bit? Very generous.

Only the batting bit of the team.

The bowlers have been OK, and even better with the bat than the batsmen themselves.

solarflare said:

tlg86 said:

SandyRentool said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

We can turn to the lyrics of The Jam once again:

"And the public wants what the public gets
But I don't get what this society wants"

Although on this, I'm on the side of the majority.

I'd be curious to see polling on whether people think we should reverse the last reopening.

My dad - who's spent the last two weeks saying that we will open up on 21 June - thinks that if they're worried, then they should shut pubs etc. And I think he's right.

What happens when things don't get better in three weeks time? They'll extend and extend and extend. It would be better to reverse the last reopening and get cases down and give a bit more time for the vaccines to take effect.

A short delay might not be too unpalatable to many on the Conservative benches but I reckon going backwards would very much NOT be.

I don't doubt it. But I think that the PM is storing up trouble if he simply delays the next stage. Things won't magically improve in that time. Okay, more vaccines will be at work, but it's the cases that's driving this wobble. And they will carry on getting worse.

solarflare said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

solarflare said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.

Were there a few boos?

Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.

Ironically it is the Russians on their knees now.

CarlottaVance said:

Latest G7 family photo:

https://twitter.com/G7/status/1403797976061988864?s=20

Poor VDL, again shoved to the side of the photo...

FrancisUrquhart said:

CarlottaVance said:

Latest G7 family photo:

https://twitter.com/G7/status/1403797976061988864?s=20

Poor VDL, again shoved to the side of the photo...

Take the bleeding suits off. You're in Cornwall, it's a beautiful evening, you're having a beach barbecue at the Hidden Hut (a great place)

Suits??!

RobD said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

algarkirk said:

nico679 said:

I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

It was the most sensible option by far.

Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.

Because we voted to take back control.

Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.

You are changing what you are saying.

It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

It is an option, one that would work.

Your ideology stands in its way though.

Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?

No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.

CarlottaVance said:

Latest G7 family photo:

https://twitter.com/G7/status/1403797976061988864?s=20

The Australian PM and South African President have both now joined the G7 leaders in Cornwall I see

gealbhan said:

SandyRentool said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

HYUFD said:

Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.

Before this taking the knee malarkey, wasn't the last time the England team made a political gesture before kick off that time they all gave a Nazi salute away to Germany?

Poppy’s on the shirt?

Who is Poppy and whose shirt is she on?

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

That will stop amusing me.

A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

During WW2 there was a British POW in Germany, who made a daring and almost-successful escape attempt, disguised as an officer in the Bulgarian Navy (because his RN Reserve uniform had crowns on the buttons, and Bulgaria was a kingdom AND German ally).

For his nom d'évasion he called himself "Ivan Bugeroff".

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx

I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free

I hope all goes well for them, we are doing the wedding with 30 and a livesteam next weekend in Oxford and a Thanksgiving reception outdoors on July 3rd in Epping for 50-60 at present rules depending

Thanks @HYUFD and may you have a wonderful wedding and outdoor reception on the 3rd July

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

I mean, how could that happen?

What I love about the

That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.

As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

And about 1,000 other examples.

No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed

Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

The other says "Market".


And I'm the one ill informed?

Are you high?

You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.

You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

And I'm the one not doing my research?

I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail

I did the same search on Google

Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.

Yes, it’s the same market

Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…

So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?

Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3

Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.

Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?

No, he had not proven it.

Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.

If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?

Nothing is certain, and Robert is right, I certainly did not prove the virus came from the lab, that would make me the internet hero of the century (or the guy who started World War 3), all I proved is that there is a laboratory near the wet market, which might have been a BSL2 centre of risky corona gain-of-function research

What was interesting in that whole exchange was how a smart guy, Robert Smithson, leapt immediately to the conclusion that I had posted some insane Trumpite conspiratorial bollocks, which needed just ten seconds Googling to refute - only for ten seconds googling to show I was completely right, and he was embarrassingly wrong, on all counts


Why this reaction? I think the original gaslighting by the scientific/political Establishment: "lab leak" is mad, Trump believes it, all viruses come from animals naturally - has been notably successful. It has duped many people

The evidence has to be both compatible with leak and incompatible with wild. Just the 1st isn't enough. And unfortunately you can't divorce messenger from message. Not so much you - although there is that - but with all the Trumpian loonies. I'm afraid their support does taint the object of it. There's no easy way around that. It saves so much time to assume everything they say is true is false. It's efficient to do that because it will be the case 99% of the time. But there will be that 1% and maybe this is it. I doubt it but that's all I'm doing. Doubting. Which is a big move. I'm no longer rejecting it out of hand - my efficient default for Trump tat - and I'm not mocking it. Looking forward to being able to mock it again one day but I realize that day might never arrive. Could be permanent limbo on this one - which would not be great for anyone.

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

That will stop amusing me.

A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

During WW2 there was a British POW in Germany, who made a daring and almost-successful escape attempt, disguised as an officer in the Bulgarian Navy (because his RN Reserve uniform had crowns on the buttons, and Bulgaria was a kingdom AND German ally).

For his nom d'évasion he called himself "Ivan Bugeroff".

Also during WW2 -
https://lettersofnote.com/2009/10/28/we-all-feel-like-that-now-and-then/

Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

Fast forward

cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

Fishing said:

Black_Rook said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Stockholm syndrome lol

Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.

Well quite.

Not according to MORI - in February 2003: a quarter of the public (26%) said they would support British troops being used without proof that Iraq is hiding weapons or a new Security Council resolution, while 63% would oppose, net support of -37; at the end of February, the figures were 24% support, 67% oppose, net -43.

That changed once the Forces were in action, as it always does, then changed back afterwards.

Missing the point again. I was talking about people supporting the war in 2003 then recalling they opposed it years later.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq

It was something that happened in America as well.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/21/americans-remember-opposing-2003-war-iraq

Jezza among his friends today...and the anti-Semitic inflatable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9679605/Jeremy-Corbyn-joins-smoke-grenade-touting-pro-Palestine-protestors-Downing-Street.html

Floater said:

Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

Fast forward

cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

He also says "less severe and people ill for a smaller period of time"

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

That will stop amusing me.

A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

Was the Bulgarian player Trans?

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fishing said:

Black_Rook said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Stockholm syndrome lol

Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.

Well quite.

Not according to MORI - in February 2003: a quarter of the public (26%) said they would support British troops being used without proof that Iraq is hiding weapons or a new Security Council resolution, while 63% would oppose, net support of -37; at the end of February, the figures were 24% support, 67% oppose, net -43.

That changed once the Forces were in action, as it always does, then changed back afterwards.

Missing the point again. I was talking about people supporting the war in 2003 then recalling they opposed it years later.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq

It was something that happened in America as well.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/21/americans-remember-opposing-2003-war-iraq

[EDIT]

I agree with that anyway.

rcs1000 said:

RobD said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

algarkirk said:

nico679 said:

I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

It was the most sensible option by far.

Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.

Because we voted to take back control.

Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.

You are changing what you are saying.

It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

It is an option, one that would work.

Your ideology stands in its way though.

Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?

No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.

If Boris wants to play hardball over this, the narrative could be constructed which basically asks: Does the EU value keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth, above peace in Northern Ireland and the GFA?

Obvs to the EU the single market trumps every other country's rights and expectations, but why should it?

If the story can be kept to the contrast of bacon butties and seed potatoes v violence, and a legalistic desire by the EU to defend irrational protectionism Boris could be on a winner.

There is nothing intrinsically rational about the idea, among advanced industrial democracies, that a sausage roll that is safe to eat in Armagh is not safe to eat in Kells. Or Bialystok for that matter.

So who is Amy Maxmen, and why does she matter, in the story of Covid?

Let me explain

She is a well-known science journalist, and she has written a long series of articles for Nature, Scientific American, etc, variously squishing the "lab leak hypothesis" or saying that investigation of it is divisive and pointless

Here's just one, recently,

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01383-3

Here's another, which was eagerly cited by our own parochial halfwit, NigelB, as a "balanced" analysis of the hypotheses

https://twitter.com/amymaxmen/status/1402376072029642764?s=20


But is she balanced?

Let's see. In recent days a damning video has emerged, from 2016, where British boffin Peter Daszak - who funded the "gain of function" research at Wuhan, boasts that his colleagues have created "killer coronaviruses"

No joke:


https://twitter.com/jimduey/status/1402606579875254272?s=20

Watch the video. It's from a 90 minute video panel meeting, broadcast by C-Span from NYC. Now, who is that woman on Peter Daszak's left? Yes, it's Amy Maxmen

Is this a smoking gun? Of course not. She's a journalist. She must meet scientists all the time

However, when confronted with this link, Amy Maxmen did a very strange thing, She denied she knew him. This despite this picture, despite her interviewing Daszak for other articles, and despite her actually tweeting her "honour" to be on that panel alongside him in NYC, and linking him in the tweet (this being one of the few tweets she hasn't hastily deleted, in the last 48 hours)

Pressed further, and shown more photos, Maxmen then said - I kid you not - that the image of her with Daszak had been "doctored" by the ex editor of Breitbart. She claimed it was a fake. She still claimed not to know him

She was then pressed further, and shown overwhelming video and photo and online evidence that she sat alongside Daszak, that she knew him, that she was lying - at this point she dropped the entire argument that the images were faked by Breitbart and she said Oh yes, I forgot I knew him. She forgot she was honoured to be with the man at the centre of the greatest medical story in a century, and she forgot she had interviewed him for other pieces, and she accidentally thought Breitbart was trying to frame her

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/1403538394123169793?s=20

This IS a smoking gun. There is a small cabal of journalists and scientists trying to cover up their own involvement in 1. Covid origins, and 2. The cover up of these origins

This is now indisputable.

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Latest poll from
@OpiniumResearch

Con 43% +1
Lab 34% -2
Green 7% +2
Lib Dem 6 ±0
10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll

Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx

I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free

I hope all goes well for them, we are doing the wedding with 30 and a livesteam next weekend in Oxford and a Thanksgiving reception outdoors on July 3rd in Epping for 50-60 at present rules depending

Perhaps you could postpone a day, then have a BIG fireworks display?

Congratulations & best of British luck - or even better, American luck - with the weather!

FrancisUrquhart said:

Jezza among his friends today...and the anti-Semitic inflatable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9679605/Jeremy-Corbyn-joins-smoke-grenade-touting-pro-Palestine-protestors-Downing-Street.html

Didn't you post this earlier in this thread? Someone did.

algarkirk said:

rcs1000 said:

RobD said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Philip_Thompson said:

algarkirk said:

nico679 said:

I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

It was the most sensible option by far.

Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.

Because we voted to take back control.

Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.

You are changing what you are saying.

It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

It is an option, one that would work.

Your ideology stands in its way though.

Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?

No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.

If Boris wants to play hardball over this, the narrative could be constructed which basically asks: Does the EU value keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth, above peace in Northern Ireland and the GFA?

Obvs to the EU the single market trumps every other country's rights and expectations, but why should it?

If the story can be kept to the contrast of bacon butties and seed potatoes v violence, and a legalistic desire by the EU to defend irrational protectionism Boris could be on a winner.

There is nothing intrinsically rational about the idea, among advanced industrial democracies, that a sausage roll that is safe to eat in Armagh is not safe to eat in Kells. Or Bialystok for that matter.

"keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth"

Moderator! Must we PBers be subjected to THIS kind of filthy, obscene & lewd (take your pick) innuendo?

Am hoping the answer is, yes!

ydoethur said:

ManchesterKurt said:

ydoethur said:

ManchesterKurt said:

Black_Rook said:

Floater said:

Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

Fast forward

cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.

This was talked about on the radio the other day.

Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.

Assuming it followed the same trajectory. Given the number of double vaccinated people in vulnerable groups, that seems a very bold assumption.

We are following that trajectory, so far.

More of Less podcast from memory, worth a listen.

Those are the key words.

Of course

So do you want to risk another 4months of lock down by relaxing too early, causing utter collapse in public confidence, or take another few weeks to take time to have confidence that you are not going to utterly destroy the economy by opening too soon?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jun/12/museum-of-the-home-reopens-to-protests-over-statue-of-slave-ship-owner

Seems like everyone wanted Geffrye taken down, but the government Bungled it.