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In spite of the latest EU dealings those who think Brexit was wrong still have clear 8% lead with Yo

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  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,694

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I rimplied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    As I said previously, Nicola opines on everything including many things that are outside her remit. Which is fair enough, But you then can't crying "it's not fair" when people ask why she isn't giving her opinion on this. Especially when she's been proclaiming that Scotland has a bright future outside the UK and within the EU. Given the EU has just ridden roughshod over Ireland - which is a close peer to Scotland in terms of its relative weighting within any EU bloc - you might think she would like to tell people in Scotland if / how this action changes her view about how Scotland would fare in any future membership as a standalone nation within the EU.

    PS you don't need to pay attention to my posts but you do need to stop posting facetious comments without knowing the facts.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    edited January 29
    deleted
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927
    MaxPB said:

    What is the difference between Trump's America First and the EU's vaccine policy

    Trump's America First makes more sense.
    Yes, Trump's America first didn't institute export bans to countries it relied on for imports to make those products!

    It's literally the most stupid plan.

    The EU has picked up the gun, put it against its own head and said "give us what we want or we'll pull this trigger". I don't know what they are trying to achieve.
    They saw the success of Boris’s “no deal” gambit?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,914
    Just checking in. Slow news day then?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,526
    edited January 29

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I implied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    Sounds fair enough to me. Also the PBers in question would be the first to complain when they see her interacting with (other) Europeans, or even just opining on furrin policy. They were IIRC rather too ready to believe Carmichael A. on the same general topic (the resulting court judgement is one of the minor classics of the political internet as regards LDs).
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,694
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    Comedy gold. I think it indicates rather just how much the EU has f*cked up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    kle4 said:

    For my sanity, diplomats, open a thesaurus and find a new word for 'constructive'.
    "blistering"
  • eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question - does anyone know how to block a number so that they can't leave you voicemail?

    Will prevent me from having to report my ex for harassment...

    It's easy on an iPhone. Just open their card in your contacts and hit "block". Other smartphones are available though.
    That doesn't stop it reaching voicemail it just stops your phone ringing. If the person leaves a message you still get told a voice mail has been left.
    My ex (we have a nearly 20 year old son) has been this mad before. Now she is making all kinds of crazy legal threats which are frankly laughable. But she isn't taking no for an answer and wants more money for our "child" because any court would say what I have provided isn't sufficient for one in full-time education.

    Yes. But we have an adult son. Not a child. Who is not in education at all (gap year). And she has spent the £5k I voluntarily provided to keep him this year. Please. Sue me. All I am getting is "you are buying a 5 bedroom house for two of your children whilst your eldest child isn't benefiting.

    Yes yes, except that he can live with me when not at uni (starts a year late in September), knows he has an endless invite to do so. And he isn't a child as he's nearly fucking 20. I had the police on her two years back for attempted blackmail and harassment. They were interested. Our son brokered a truce. Shouldn't have let him...
    Commiserations. My brother went through an acrimonious break up, mercifully all are now reconciled...good luck.
    Thanks to everyone for the kind words. We genuinely have been on speaking terms. Even after her multiple blackmail attempts and her trying to break my marriage apart. I forgive as we are all commanded to forgive. But I've had enough. I know she is (self-diagnosed but probably true) bipolar and that she is on one of her "I am a heinous bitch when I'm on it" moods. So for everyone's benefit this has to stop. Part of the reason I am on anti-depressants is her.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    For my sanity, diplomats, open a thesaurus and find a new word for 'constructive'.
    "blistering"
    Orgasmic might be a bad choice however.
  • Just checking in. Slow news day then?

    I can't keep up. Its been a high speed week. Really good day work wise, and then the "lets hate the EU" stuff from earlier has turned into comedy gold with the EU playing the role of Chamberlain waving pieces of paper at Astra Zeneca
  • YokesYokes Posts: 733
    Who exactly is driving this reactionary approach on the EU side? My gut is that its the German and French governments as much as the EU commission.

    Things like this are seen as a problem for the European project and I'm wondering if that is causing the pushing of every red button on the console.

    Imagine a situation where the Pfizer stuff gets stopped dead for a bit, people left without their 2nd dose. Really a very bad look.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    No, they've turned positively Trumpian and tonight was like Trump going so far even Fox had to disown him.

    Tonight they went so far off the reservation that without provocation, consultation or discussion with Ireland they tore up the Good Friday Agreement . . .
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,012

    Its a Sin has been mentioned - a spectacular piece of television. RTD has made some fantastic stuff over the years but this was mind-blowing.

    Agree completely - I was going to "binge" - but decided to watch slowly - each episode is worth savouring - even though we know the catastrophe unfolding..just watched episode 2 - the paranoia of the mug....
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    Floater said:
    I was furious about the similar bullshit in that German rag (unfortunately the equivalent of the FT, but still clearly a filthy rag). To hear it from the President of France is frankly bewildering, and profoundly depressing.

    He should be no platformed from now on. Essentially barred from talking about vaccines ever again.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    This is hilarious.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699
    edited January 29

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    No, they've turned positively Trumpian and tonight was like Trump going so far even Fox had to disown him.

    Tonight they went so far off the reservation that without provocation, consultation or discussion with Ireland they tore up the Good Friday Agreement . . .
    To be fair it was someone inadvertently triggering Article 16 without knowing what it meant. Which is perfectly fine.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,694

    eek said:

    DougSeal said:

    Question - does anyone know how to block a number so that they can't leave you voicemail?

    Will prevent me from having to report my ex for harassment...

    It's easy on an iPhone. Just open their card in your contacts and hit "block". Other smartphones are available though.
    That doesn't stop it reaching voicemail it just stops your phone ringing. If the person leaves a message you still get told a voice mail has been left.
    My ex (we have a nearly 20 year old son) has been this mad before. Now she is making all kinds of crazy legal threats which are frankly laughable. But she isn't taking no for an answer and wants more money for our "child" because any court would say what I have provided isn't sufficient for one in full-time education.

    Yes. But we have an adult son. Not a child. Who is not in education at all (gap year). And she has spent the £5k I voluntarily provided to keep him this year. Please. Sue me. All I am getting is "you are buying a 5 bedroom house for two of your children whilst your eldest child isn't benefiting.

    Yes yes, except that he can live with me when not at uni (starts a year late in September), knows he has an endless invite to do so. And he isn't a child as he's nearly fucking 20. I had the police on her two years back for attempted blackmail and harassment. They were interested. Our son brokered a truce. Shouldn't have let him...
    Commiserations. My brother went through an acrimonious break up, mercifully all are now reconciled...good luck.
    Thanks to everyone for the kind words. We genuinely have been on speaking terms. Even after her multiple blackmail attempts and her trying to break my marriage apart. I forgive as we are all commanded to forgive. But I've had enough. I know she is (self-diagnosed but probably true) bipolar and that she is on one of her "I am a heinous bitch when I'm on it" moods. So for everyone's benefit this has to stop. Part of the reason I am on anti-depressants is her.
    Good luck with everything, don't let the bugger get you down.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,562
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I kind of admire his fortitude. He's one of those 90 year old Japs still holding out in the Malaysian jungle
    It also ignores - I suspect - that Mr Peck would have been advocating furiously that we joined the EU programme rather than having our own.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,012
    Floater said:

    As someone observed earlier the "over 65s" is something of a speciality in Macron's case...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:
    I was furious about the similar bullshit in that German rag (unfortunately the equivalent of the FT, but still clearly a filthy rag). To hear it from the President of France is frankly bewildering, and profoundly depressing.

    He should be no platformed from now on. Essentially barred from talking about vaccines ever again.
    Actually, good point - calling twitter...............
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,526

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    I'd be more interested in hearing TUD's own view, and Carnyx's too. Both are clearly finding the outpouring of Brexitism on PB quite revolting, but I'd be interested in an honest take on the situation itself from either of both of them.
    WAiting to see the dust settle a bit more.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,118
    edited January 29
    Its a bit like needing 400 in the final innings of a test match, clear lbw early on, you review the decision, DRS says definitely out, you end up having a physical altercation with the umpire, you swing for him, one of your own team steps in to try and calm things down and you inadvertently strike your own team mate and end up breaking your hand. All live on telly.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Floater said:
    I was furious about the similar bullshit in that German rag (unfortunately the equivalent of the FT, but still clearly a filthy rag). To hear it from the President of France is frankly bewildering, and profoundly depressing.

    He should be no platformed from now on. Essentially barred from talking about vaccines ever again.
    Emmanuel Macron = Desmond Swayne. Sad.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 733
    Andy_JS said:
    Its amazing how a supranational and essentially undemocratic body can invoke such unquestioning justification attempts. There is less fervour for the old Soviet Union ffs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Yokes said:

    Who exactly is driving this reactionary approach on the EU side? My gut is that its the German and French governments as much as the EU commission.

    Things like this are seen as a problem for the European project and I'm wondering if that is causing the pushing of every red button on the console.

    Imagine a situation where the Pfizer stuff gets stopped dead for a bit, people left without their 2nd dose. Really a very bad look.

    Given the leaks from the german government to the press, and Macron's comments, it seems very likely they are the drivers.

    The EU doesn't need to worry that every problem will be a major issue for the European project. That's pretty darn solid. The overuse of talk of unity seems like another sign of them being a bit too worried about the possibility of the project getting blowback when something goes wrong.

    Which I suppose is better than not reacting at all to problems, but it is not the most, ahem, constructive, approach.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638

    If the Leave.EU people are as tactically smart as they used to be, there will soon be a very prominent counter appearing which tallies how many people are alive today who would be dead if we had stayed in the EU and been tied to their failed vaccine procurement. Not that hard to calculate and only going to go in one direction unless something very surprising happens.

    I can sport a statistical flaw in that plan...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I rimplied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    As I said previously, Nicola opines on everything including many things that are outside her remit. Which is fair enough, But you then can't crying "it's not fair" when people ask why she isn't giving her opinion on this. Especially when she's been proclaiming that Scotland has a bright future outside the UK and within the EU. Given the EU has just ridden roughshod over Ireland - which is a close peer to Scotland in terms of its relative weighting within any EU bloc - you might think she would like to tell people in Scotland if / how this action changes her view about how Scotland would fare in any future membership as a standalone nation within the EU.

    PS you don't need to pay attention to my posts but you do need to stop posting facetious comments without knowing the facts.
    I don't 'need' to do either thing, sport.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,910
    RE:AZ vaccine. Has anyone seen the subsample for 41-42 year olds? I'm concerned it might not show enough evidence of effectiveness?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055
    Fenman said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:
    That was before the EU commission went publicly insane.
    One thing that we know about Brexit is that minds are not easily changed.
    Plenty on evidence on here they are changing rapidly
    Is this crisis really about the UK and Eire? How are the back of the queue East European nations going to take this? Could this eventually lead to other leavers? Hungary isn't the only unhappy one and Putin will devote effort and resources to help stir more troubles for the EU.
    I think this ridiculous week has done long term, and rather serious damage to the EU. Never again will some stupid Remainer be allowed to loftily pontificate that "the EU is a serious, clever, law-abiding organisation, which would never stoop so low as to" [insert usual pompous drivel here]

    The EU has revealed itself, in the depths of a terrible crisis, to be the blundering, monolithic, dithering, anti-democratic, designed-to-be-mediocre theatre of political clownng (however nobly intentioned) that Brexiteers always claimed. This is a wet dream for the likes of Bill Cash and John Redwood (and one they don't deserve: they are idiots, too)

    This week will never be forgotten. Once you lose the "moral high ground" it is very hard to regain.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    No, they've turned positively Trumpian and tonight was like Trump going so far even Fox had to disown him.

    Tonight they went so far off the reservation that without provocation, consultation or discussion with Ireland they tore up the Good Friday Agreement . . .
    To be fair it was someone inadvertently triggering Article 16 without knowing what it meant. Which is perfectly fine.
    Someone accidentally tore up the Good Friday Agreement. 😂
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526

    Its a bit like needing 400 in the final innings of a test match, clear lbw early on, you review the decision, DRS says definitely out, you end up having a physical altercation with the umpire, you swing for him, one of your own team steps in to try and calm things down and you inadvertently strike your own team mate and end up breaking your hand. All live on telly.
    Today has been more like your top five batsmen all hitting their own wicket.

    Now you are into the tail.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,253

    If the Leave.EU people are as tactically smart as they used to be, there will soon be a very prominent counter appearing which tallies how many people are alive today who would be dead if we had stayed in the EU and been tied to their failed vaccine procurement. Not that hard to calculate and only going to go in one direction unless something very surprising happens.

    Leave eu dont need to do anything, in ten years time the eu will be nothing we will ever wanting to rejoin. Even now they are using the vaccines crisis they created to argue for more eu
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,910
    Leon said:

    Fenman said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:
    That was before the EU commission went publicly insane.
    One thing that we know about Brexit is that minds are not easily changed.
    Plenty on evidence on here they are changing rapidly
    Is this crisis really about the UK and Eire? How are the back of the queue East European nations going to take this? Could this eventually lead to other leavers? Hungary isn't the only unhappy one and Putin will devote effort and resources to help stir more troubles for the EU.
    I think this ridiculous week has done long term, and rather serious damage to the EU. Never again will some stupid Remainer be allowed to loftily pontificate that "the EU is a serious, clever, law-abiding organisation, which would never stoop so low as to" [insert usual pompous drivel here]

    The EU has revealed itself, in the depths of a terrible crisis, to be the blundering, monolithic, dithering, anti-democratic, designed-to-be-mediocre theatre of political clownng (however nobly intentioned) that Brexiteers always claimed. This is a wet dream for the likes of Bill Cash and John Redwood (and one they don't deserve: they are idiots, too)

    This week will never be forgotten. Once you lose the "moral high ground" it is very hard to regain.
    It's quite easy if somebody voluntarily starts digging a hole next to you.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,694
    Yokes said:

    Who exactly is driving this reactionary approach on the EU side? My gut is that its the German and French governments as much as the EU commission.

    Things like this are seen as a problem for the European project and I'm wondering if that is causing the pushing of every red button on the console.

    Imagine a situation where the Pfizer stuff gets stopped dead for a bit, people left without their 2nd dose. Really a very bad look.

    It's an existential threat to the whole European project. The whole project relies on the belief that bigger is better and that, by trading in their sovereignty, nations are getting a better outcome overall.

    The vaccination rollout is also something that is easily understood by anyone and is also quite black and white.

    Hence the attempts to blame the situation on anyone other than the EU. If people start to believe the EU is the real cause of the problem, they - and all the politicians who back the European project - are f*cked
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Far be it from me to leap to her defence, but we shouldn't expect statements from Nicola Sturgeon about this fiasco. The Scottish Government (and, for that matter, the Welsh one too, which as been forgotten in the pile on like it usually is) has no responsibility in this area.

    I'm sure she's watching the whole fiasco unfold with a degree of trepidation, however, and hoping that the EU doesn't do anything even more stupid over the next few weeks. A radical deterioration in UK-EU relations would be a disaster for her.
    I'll have to disagree with you there @Black_Rook which is one of the few times I do. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Nicola is very happy to put her oar in on all manner of stuff, which lies outside her remit. So the fact she is keeping silent on such a fundamental issue should be taken as a sign that all the stuff she sprouts about principles and so is nothing more than a pile of horse sh1t.
    It might be argued thus. OTOH, insisting that the woman shouldn't stick her oar in where it don't belong one day, then demanding that she do it the next, is almost as great an act of contortion as that performed by the dumb idiot from Twitter posted downthread, who used the EU's vaccine mafia tactics as an argument for why it was a mistake to leave the EU.

    One of the benefits about (nearly) all of us agreeing that the European Commission have been acting like total dicks is that we are not, for a change, arguing the toss over Scotland. Now, far be it from me to tell anybody else what to do, but from a purely personal point of view I shall be trying to avoid metaphorically beating the First Minister around the head with a copy of the Northern Ireland protocol tonight.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,910
    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Also isn't there a question about the amount of subsidisation that the UK has put into the development in the UK?
  • DougSeal said:

    If the Leave.EU people are as tactically smart as they used to be, there will soon be a very prominent counter appearing which tallies how many people are alive today who would be dead if we had stayed in the EU and been tied to their failed vaccine procurement. Not that hard to calculate and only going to go in one direction unless something very surprising happens.

    I can sport a statistical flaw in that plan...
    DougSeal said:

    If the Leave.EU people are as tactically smart as they used to be, there will soon be a very prominent counter appearing which tallies how many people are alive today who would be dead if we had stayed in the EU and been tied to their failed vaccine procurement. Not that hard to calculate and only going to go in one direction unless something very surprising happens.

    I can sport a statistical flaw in that plan...
    The number will go to 0 in about 50 years?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,118
    edited January 29
    If you work at the EU Commission and have no idea about NI, you shouldn't be doing anything more than making the teas.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,694

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I rimplied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    As I said previously, Nicola opines on everything including many things that are outside her remit. Which is fair enough, But you then can't crying "it's not fair" when people ask why she isn't giving her opinion on this. Especially when she's been proclaiming that Scotland has a bright future outside the UK and within the EU. Given the EU has just ridden roughshod over Ireland - which is a close peer to Scotland in terms of its relative weighting within any EU bloc - you might think she would like to tell people in Scotland if / how this action changes her view about how Scotland would fare in any future membership as a standalone nation within the EU.

    PS you don't need to pay attention to my posts but you do need to stop posting facetious comments without knowing the facts.
    I don't 'need' to do either thing, sport.
    You certainly don't, old chap but you do need to grow a stiff upper lip and stop being so sensitive when anyone writes anything about Nicola.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699
    Yep. It's been less than a month and one side has already breached international law. And it isn't the UK.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    This has been so damaging to the reputation of the EU, and so good for Boris, Brexit and the cause of Unionism in the UK, I can only assume Cummings wargamed this months ago and went deep state within the EU back in November.

    Boy, that guy is good.

    Whatever we're paying von der Leyen to bring down the EU from within, it's not enough!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,839
    Yokes said:

    Who exactly is driving this reactionary approach on the EU side? My gut is that its the German and French governments as much as the EU commission.

    Things like this are seen as a problem for the European project and I'm wondering if that is causing the pushing of every red button on the console.

    Imagine a situation where the Pfizer stuff gets stopped dead for a bit, people left without their 2nd dose. Really a very bad look.

    I'm wondering whether the step back is just from the Article 16 or whether it augurs a reset of the whole spat with AZ.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
    Bollocks. The EU have spent over four years banging on about the island of Ireland. They should all know about it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    This has been so damaging to the reputation of the EU, and so good for Boris, Brexit and the cause of Unionism in the UK, I can only assume Cummings wargamed this months ago and went deep state within the EU back in November.

    Boy, that guy is good.

    We'll be back to Boris messes soon, I have little doubt. But in a week with a grim milestone, politically he's had some good times in this matter.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    Leon said:

    Fenman said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:
    That was before the EU commission went publicly insane.
    One thing that we know about Brexit is that minds are not easily changed.
    Plenty on evidence on here they are changing rapidly
    Is this crisis really about the UK and Eire? How are the back of the queue East European nations going to take this? Could this eventually lead to other leavers? Hungary isn't the only unhappy one and Putin will devote effort and resources to help stir more troubles for the EU.
    I think this ridiculous week has done long term, and rather serious damage to the EU. Never again will some stupid Remainer be allowed to loftily pontificate that "the EU is a serious, clever, law-abiding organisation, which would never stoop so low as to" [insert usual pompous drivel here]

    The EU has revealed itself, in the depths of a terrible crisis, to be the blundering, monolithic, dithering, anti-democratic, designed-to-be-mediocre theatre of political clownng (however nobly intentioned) that Brexiteers always claimed. This is a wet dream for the likes of Bill Cash and John Redwood (and one they don't deserve: they are idiots, too)

    This week will never be forgotten. Once you lose the "moral high ground" it is very hard to regain.
    Of course it's done serious damage. The EU tried waving the biggest stick it could find.. and lost. It will now be forced into a humiliating climbdown.

    The worst thing is for the whole world to see you're just a paper tiger.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055
    edited January 29
    alex_ said:

    RE:AZ vaccine. Has anyone seen the subsample for 41-42 year olds? I'm concerned it might not show enough evidence of effectiveness?

    Just today, President Macron said, at a rally in Orleans, that

    "la preuve est que le vaccin anglais n'a presque aucun effet sur les tailleurs de silex de gode artisanaux"

    Which I have to say, as an expert French speaker, did leave me somewhat disquieted
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,834
    Carnyx said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I implied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    Sounds fair enough to me. Also the PBers in question would be the first to complain when they see her interacting with (other) Europeans, or even just opining on furrin policy. They were IIRC rather too ready to believe Carmichael A. on the same general topic (the resulting court judgement is one of the minor classics of the political internet as regards LDs).
    Funny, she never seems short of an opinion or three on such matters.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,343
    kle4 said:

    For my sanity, diplomats, open a thesaurus and find a new word for 'constructive'.
    In Bozo's case, a photo-op discussion.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Yokes said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Its amazing how a supranational and essentially undemocratic body can invoke such unquestioning justification attempts. There is less fervour for the old Soviet Union ffs.
    Well now Seamus and Jezza are out of the loop.......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    No, they've turned positively Trumpian and tonight was like Trump going so far even Fox had to disown him.

    Tonight they went so far off the reservation that without provocation, consultation or discussion with Ireland they tore up the Good Friday Agreement . . .
    To be fair it was someone inadvertently triggering Article 16 without knowing what it meant. Which is perfectly fine.
    And it only took several hours and a phone call from the PM of Ireland to sort out, so no big deal.

    It does make me worry what national stories we're missing because of this story - I know people sent home from work because of things stuck in the ports, and I've no idea if things are improving there at all.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,694

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Far be it from me to leap to her defence, but we shouldn't expect statements from Nicola Sturgeon about this fiasco. The Scottish Government (and, for that matter, the Welsh one too, which as been forgotten in the pile on like it usually is) has no responsibility in this area.

    I'm sure she's watching the whole fiasco unfold with a degree of trepidation, however, and hoping that the EU doesn't do anything even more stupid over the next few weeks. A radical deterioration in UK-EU relations would be a disaster for her.
    I'll have to disagree with you there @Black_Rook which is one of the few times I do. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Nicola is very happy to put her oar in on all manner of stuff, which lies outside her remit. So the fact she is keeping silent on such a fundamental issue should be taken as a sign that all the stuff she sprouts about principles and so is nothing more than a pile of horse sh1t.
    It might be argued thus. OTOH, insisting that the woman shouldn't stick her oar in where it don't belong one day, then demanding that she do it the next, is almost as great an act of contortion as that performed by the dumb idiot from Twitter posted downthread, who used the EU's vaccine mafia tactics as an argument for why it was a mistake to leave the EU.

    One of the benefits about (nearly) all of us agreeing that the European Commission have been acting like total dicks is that we are not, for a change, arguing the toss over Scotland. Now, far be it from me to tell anybody else what to do, but from a purely personal point of view I shall be trying to avoid metaphorically beating the First Minister around the head with a copy of the Northern Ireland protocol tonight.
    I actually don't have a problem with Nicola sticking her oar in, she is a politician and she is doing what she thinks is best for her and her cause, and does it bloody damn well. Full marks to her because, as a politician, she stands high and shoulders above the rest. But, as others have said, I am waiting to see the mental gymnastics she pulls out on this one to say whether she still thinks Scotland has a glorious future as part of the EU as an independent nation when this sort of stuff is happening and Ireland has essentially been ridden over roughshod.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,253
    Charles said:

    Now all that moaning about one clause in the Internal Market Bill, that if the EU starting being twats we could do something about it and we were all told that it is totally illegal in international law and the EU would never behave like that.

    Surprised no one had commented on the suspension of the NI border. I thought that was sacrosanct
    it was till it was inconvenient for the eu
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,910
    AnneJGP said:

    Yokes said:

    Who exactly is driving this reactionary approach on the EU side? My gut is that its the German and French governments as much as the EU commission.

    Things like this are seen as a problem for the European project and I'm wondering if that is causing the pushing of every red button on the console.

    Imagine a situation where the Pfizer stuff gets stopped dead for a bit, people left without their 2nd dose. Really a very bad look.

    I'm wondering whether the step back is just from the Article 16 or whether it augurs a reset of the whole spat with AZ.
    Well i suspect that the triggering of Article 16 was done because they realised that the vaccine controls would be completely ineffective without it. So revoking Article 16 will require a rethink anyway. Which is good news for almost everyone - including ultimately i think the most of the citizens of the EU. If it leads to a moving away from the confrontational approach and one that means moving towards problem solving and searching for solutions. Everyone is ultimately on the same side. Bad for some politicians in the short term.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699
    Floater said:
    Remind me when this all started?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526

    I'm getting a bit worried about the power of my words. Last night I was strongly advocating that the UK include Ireland in its vaccination rollout. This morning I was suggesting that EU leadership was appearing somewhat Trumpian. Both ideas seem to have rather taken off over the following 24 hours.

    Can't wait to see what you have lined up for us tomorrow....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I rimplied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    As I said previously, Nicola opines on everything including many things that are outside her remit. Which is fair enough, But you then can't crying "it's not fair" when people ask why she isn't giving her opinion on this. Especially when she's been proclaiming that Scotland has a bright future outside the UK and within the EU. Given the EU has just ridden roughshod over Ireland - which is a close peer to Scotland in terms of its relative weighting within any EU bloc - you might think she would like to tell people in Scotland if / how this action changes her view about how Scotland would fare in any future membership as a standalone nation within the EU.

    PS you don't need to pay attention to my posts but you do need to stop posting facetious comments without knowing the facts.
    I don't 'need' to do either thing, sport.
    You certainly don't, old chap but you do need to grow a stiff upper lip and stop being so sensitive when anyone writes anything about Nicola.
    You're great on what I need to do.

    I think I'll add pompous pricks attempting to school other posters on what they need to do (you need to step away from the computer, stop this, grow that, stop posting tweets etc) to my list of forum sins.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Remainiac still fits the bill.

    I said last night that that word I've been using for hmm 5 years now has finally been properly defined. Anyone backing the EU's actions over AZ is undoubtedly a Remainiac.

    I've been surprised by some of those who have escaped that moniker. WilliamGlen has been criticising the EU like the most ardent leavers. MysticRose has almost gone Tory. SouthamObserver has been furious at the EU. ScottPammer has even tweeted non pro EU stuff. Obvs not a comprehensive list so sorry to prominent EUphiles showing sanity that I've missed.

    The Remainiac remaining exceptions are obvious. I think we have to include Mr Meeks in that until he breaks his unusual silence.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,118
    Floater said:
    Is this going to descend into EU all pointing fingers at one another via anonymous briefings?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,526

    Carnyx said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I implied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    Sounds fair enough to me. Also the PBers in question would be the first to complain when they see her interacting with (other) Europeans, or even just opining on furrin policy. They were IIRC rather too ready to believe Carmichael A. on the same general topic (the resulting court judgement is one of the minor classics of the political internet as regards LDs).
    Funny, she never seems short of an opinion or three on such matters.
    Didn't say she wasn't - only that she's not allowed to in the views of some.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited January 29
    tlg86 said:

    Bollocks. The EU have spent over four years banging on about the island of Ireland. They should all know about it.
    Anyone with the power to trigger the protocol absolutely should and no doubt does. And someone's name must be on that authorisation.

    Admitting stupidity is the politician's last line of defence. Claiming oversights here is the institutional equivalent. It's not in the least bit plausible that it is a satisfactory explanation, as it raises a whole bunch of other questions, but it provides an out, which those affected like the Irish PM can pretend to accept.

    But there's still that issue of who said 'do it', and why that was all that was needed.

    Have a pleasant night everyone - hopefully this is the point the EU stopped trying to pick a fight and started rolling back. With any luck AZ can rustle up some additional vaccine so they can save face and back down.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,069
    Something new, or is this old news re Salmond and Sturgeon?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55863264
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    Floater said:
    EU Health Commissioner: "This shit ain't on me...."

    Does the EU have an equivalent of Article 25?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,253
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    The bbc is slightly less objective than the guardian from which they get most of their views then take it further . Abolish the lot of them
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,562
    I'm bored of all the EU vaccine stuff, but can report that Hitman 3 is excellent.

    The whole trilogy has been utterly superb, like a game of chess where you manipulate the systems to off your targets.

    I'm currently hunting through a Berlin techno club to find people who are currently looking for me. The challenge is how to kill them when I find them, because there are literally hundreds of people around.

    Oh well, I'll work it out.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893
    What is the actual process for triggering Article 16?

    Can the Berlaymont junior press officer just phone a few journos and say it's done or does someone have to sign an order or get the commission to vote for it?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,526
    dr_spyn said:

    Something new, or is this old news re Salmond and Sturgeon?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55863264

    Dunno - not obvious to me either way.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,910

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Remainiac still fits the bill.

    I said last night that that word I've been using for hmm 5 years now has finally been properly defined. Anyone backing the EU's actions over AZ is undoubtedly a Remainiac.

    I've been surprised by some of those who have escaped that moniker. WilliamGlen has been criticising the EU like the most ardent leavers. MysticRose has almost gone Tory. SouthamObserver has been furious at the EU. ScottPammer has even tweeted non pro EU stuff. Obvs not a comprehensive list so sorry to prominent EUphiles showing sanity that I've missed.

    The Remainiac remaining exceptions are obvious. I think we have to include Mr Meeks in that until he breaks his unusual silence.
    It is amusing that you go to some of the obvious candidates on twitter and you find commenters who genuinely seem to believe that the EU didn't trigger Article 16 today and have taken as absolute gospel that the media jumped the gun in suggesting that they did. All because they implicitly believe the ridiculous excuses that have been used to row back.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893
    edited January 29
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    The bbc is slightly less objective than the guardian from which they get most of their views then take it further . Abolish the lot of them
    You mean abolish all the non right-wing outlets? Just checking.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729

    I'm getting a bit worried about the power of my words. Last night I was strongly advocating that the UK include Ireland in its vaccination rollout. This morning I was suggesting that EU leadership was appearing somewhat Trumpian. Both ideas seem to have rather taken off over the following 24 hours.

    Can't wait to see what you have lined up for us tomorrow....
    I made a firm prediction at the beginning of this thread that the poll it's based on will prove to been done at the time of peak remain. I'm rather more confident in that assertion already.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 6,910

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Remainiac still fits the bill.

    I said last night that that word I've been using for hmm 5 years now has finally been properly defined. Anyone backing the EU's actions over AZ is undoubtedly a Remainiac.

    I've been surprised by some of those who have escaped that moniker. WilliamGlen has been criticising the EU like the most ardent leavers. MysticRose has almost gone Tory. SouthamObserver has been furious at the EU. ScottPammer has even tweeted non pro EU stuff. Obvs not a comprehensive list so sorry to prominent EUphiles showing sanity that I've missed.

    The Remainiac remaining exceptions are obvious. I think we have to include Mr Meeks in that until he breaks his unusual silence.
    I think you've got to remember that a strong strand of the assumed "Remainer" group was always far more anti-Johnson than pro-EU.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,721
    edited January 29
    In a clear, albeit backhanded way, the AZN-EU crisis has demonstrated the feasibility of Leon's theory, that Northern Ireland was in the catbird seat post-Brexit with respect to UK, ROI and EU . . . and also USA.

    Note that Eamon de Valera (of all people) was in favor of maintaining some legal, fundamental, constitutional link between Ireland and the United Kingdom. As a means of working together on matters of common interest AND also to facilitate a United Ireland eventually and peacefully. Which is why he did NOT move to turn the Free State - a republic in all but name - into an actual republic; THAT happened when Dev was in opposition.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,343
    #DefundtheEU

    Oh, we already have.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited January 29

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I rimplied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    As I said previously, Nicola opines on everything including many things that are outside her remit. Which is fair enough, But you then can't crying "it's not fair" when people ask why she isn't giving her opinion on this. Especially when she's been proclaiming that Scotland has a bright future outside the UK and within the EU. Given the EU has just ridden roughshod over Ireland - which is a close peer to Scotland in terms of its relative weighting within any EU bloc - you might think she would like to tell people in Scotland if / how this action changes her view about how Scotland would fare in any future membership as a standalone nation within the EU.

    PS you don't need to pay attention to my posts but you do need to stop posting facetious comments without knowing the facts.
    I don't 'need' to do either thing, sport.
    You certainly don't, old chap but you do need to grow a stiff upper lip and stop being so sensitive when anyone writes anything about Nicola.
    You're great on what I need to do.

    I think I'll add pompous pricks attempting to school other posters on what they need to do (you need to step away from the computer, stop this, grow that, stop posting tweets etc) to my list of forum sins.
    You absolutely do what you want, you give a good verbal jousting. And no that is not my permission to do what you want, you don't need that.

    But you do remember chiding others for what they chose to post about re other posters literally less than an hour ago? Was that not, in effect, attempting to school others by criticising how they choose to post?

    We're all sinners here.

    Good night.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
    Suzie Boniface on Sky paper review should make for interesting viewing.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,253

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It was a shock on yesterdays BBC 10 oclock news to hear one of their correspondents in the studio talking about vaccine nationalism on the part of EU countries. First time theyve said anything negative about the EU for about 30 years.

    You know its bad when even the gruardian say the EU have thrown all their toys out the pram.
    I went to their website thinking "alright, let's hear the excuses about the EU not being right etc" but, to their credit, they did not do so.
    Which indicates their objectivity. If only sundry right wing rags would take a leaf we might get somewhere.
    No, they've turned positively Trumpian and tonight was like Trump going so far even Fox had to disown him.

    Tonight they went so far off the reservation that without provocation, consultation or discussion with Ireland they tore up the Good Friday Agreement . . .
    You forgot that it was totally the uks fault for not bending the knee and giving in to spurious demands
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm bored of all the EU vaccine stuff, but can report that Hitman 3 is excellent.

    The whole trilogy has been utterly superb, like a game of chess where you manipulate the systems to off your targets.

    I'm currently hunting through a Berlin techno club to find people who are currently looking for me. The challenge is how to kill them when I find them, because there are literally hundreds of people around.

    Oh well, I'll work it out.

    You're in America. The EU story just runs and runs. eg I had no idea Macron has also just said THIS:

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1355198238601707525?s=20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,477

    What is the actual process for triggering Article 16?

    Can the Berlaymont junior press officer just phone a few journos and say it's done or does someone have to sign an order or get the commission to vote for it?

    Whatever the legalities behind triggering A16, informing Ireland would be a starting point internally you'd think.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    alex_ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Remainiac still fits the bill.

    I said last night that that word I've been using for hmm 5 years now has finally been properly defined. Anyone backing the EU's actions over AZ is undoubtedly a Remainiac.

    I've been surprised by some of those who have escaped that moniker. WilliamGlen has been criticising the EU like the most ardent leavers. MysticRose has almost gone Tory. SouthamObserver has been furious at the EU. ScottPammer has even tweeted non pro EU stuff. Obvs not a comprehensive list so sorry to prominent EUphiles showing sanity that I've missed.

    The Remainiac remaining exceptions are obvious. I think we have to include Mr Meeks in that until he breaks his unusual silence.
    It is amusing that you go to some of the obvious candidates on twitter and you find commenters who genuinely seem to believe that the EU didn't trigger Article 16 today and have taken as absolute gospel that the media jumped the gun in suggesting that they did. All because they implicitly believe the ridiculous excuses that have been used to row back.
    I saw people replying to BBC story saying "VDL claims contract guarantees delivery of vaccines" with "what do you mean claims?! Of course she knows what's in the contract, she's got it there in front of her". Even after we'd seen the contract.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    RE:AZ vaccine. Has anyone seen the subsample for 41-42 year olds? I'm concerned it might not show enough evidence of effectiveness?

    Just today, President Macron said, at a rally in Orleans, that

    "la preuve est que le vaccin anglais n'a presque aucun effet sur les tailleurs de silex de gode artisanaux"

    Which I have to say, as an expert French speaker, did leave me somewhat disquieted
    Don't worry, the one you were destined to get has been diverted to Europe.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,826
    tlg86 said:

    BBC London news reporting that some boroughs are only at 40% in terms of carers agreeing to have the vaccine.

    Not acceptable. If you do that job you must have the vaccine.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm bored of all the EU vaccine stuff, but can report that Hitman 3 is excellent.

    The whole trilogy has been utterly superb, like a game of chess where you manipulate the systems to off your targets.

    I'm currently hunting through a Berlin techno club to find people who are currently looking for me. The challenge is how to kill them when I find them, because there are literally hundreds of people around.

    Oh well, I'll work it out.

    You're in America. The EU story just runs and runs. eg I had no idea Macron has also just said THIS:

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1355198238601707525?s=20
    He's an idiot. Trump level of fake news there.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,232
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Has anyone seen @AlastairMeeks so we can get an explanation on why the EU are right about invoking Article 16 and this is actually the UK Government's fault?

    The plaintive cries from various PBers requesting the presence of other PBers is most touching. That they didn't seem awfully keen on those posters' contributions when they were here is another thing, but who needs consistency?
    Ah, @Theuniondivvie you haven't been paying attention. When Alastair writes, I usually thank for his articles. Even if I disagree with his viewpoint, I learn new things and he always articulates his points well, unless certain posters on here....

    Anyway, what do you reckon Nicola's view on this, divvie?
    Unless certain posters on here what?

    I apologise for not paying enough attention to your no doubt excellent posts.

    I assume she'd want the EU to sort their shit out asap, but since Sturgeon's rather more of an authentic statesperson than BJ she realises anything she says will be insufficiently patriotic for the vaccine nationalists & EUrophobes so is holding her peace. As I rimplied in another post, the hypocrisy of those whose constant refrain is that she should get on with the day job is noted.
    As I said previously, Nicola opines on everything including many things that are outside her remit. Which is fair enough, But you then can't crying "it's not fair" when people ask why she isn't giving her opinion on this. Especially when she's been proclaiming that Scotland has a bright future outside the UK and within the EU. Given the EU has just ridden roughshod over Ireland - which is a close peer to Scotland in terms of its relative weighting within any EU bloc - you might think she would like to tell people in Scotland if / how this action changes her view about how Scotland would fare in any future membership as a standalone nation within the EU.

    PS you don't need to pay attention to my posts but you do need to stop posting facetious comments without knowing the facts.
    I don't 'need' to do either thing, sport.
    You certainly don't, old chap but you do need to grow a stiff upper lip and stop being so sensitive when anyone writes anything about Nicola.
    You're great on what I need to do.

    I think I'll add pompous pricks attempting to school other posters on what they need to do (you need to step away from the computer, stop this, grow that, stop posting tweets etc) to my list of forum sins.
    You absolutely do what you want, you give a good verbal jousting. And no that is not my permission to do what you want, you don't need that.

    But you do remember chiding others for what they chose to post about re other posters literally less than an hour ago? Was that not, in effect, attempting to school others by criticising how they choose to post?

    We're all sinners here.

    Good night.
    Thank you for your continuing if slightly weird interest.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,118
    edited January 29

    So, today's summary:

    *European Commission threatens key vaccine manufacturer with legal action for breaking commitments it appears not actually to have made
    *European Commission threatens its allies with vaccine export bans. Exempts Bashar al Assad
    *President of France spreads blatant anti-vax propaganda in country with Europe's highest rate of anti-vax sentiment
    *European Commission activates emergency clause in key international treaty without making required legal representations to relevant parties
    *European Commission deactivates emergency clause in key international treaty after relevant parties find out and complain

    Is there anything I've missed?

    Some European elected officials claim the UK is starting a vaccine war...
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 1,729
    alex_ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Apologist. The only word to describe him.
    Remainiac still fits the bill.

    I said last night that that word I've been using for hmm 5 years now has finally been properly defined. Anyone backing the EU's actions over AZ is undoubtedly a Remainiac.

    I've been surprised by some of those who have escaped that moniker. WilliamGlen has been criticising the EU like the most ardent leavers. MysticRose has almost gone Tory. SouthamObserver has been furious at the EU. ScottPammer has even tweeted non pro EU stuff. Obvs not a comprehensive list so sorry to prominent EUphiles showing sanity that I've missed.

    The Remainiac remaining exceptions are obvious. I think we have to include Mr Meeks in that until he breaks his unusual silence.
    I think you've got to remember that a strong strand of the assumed "Remainer" group was always far more anti-Johnson than pro-EU.
    I think that's why remainiacs (used advisedly) are the only people in Europe praising the EU right now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,118
    edited January 29
    tlg86 said:
    Never the EU's fault...never....if we had only not Brexit'ed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    What is the actual process for triggering Article 16?

    Can the Berlaymont junior press officer just phone a few journos and say it's done or does someone have to sign an order or get the commission to vote for it?

    Good question, hopefully someone knows, but the BBC story on this earlier quoted what they said was a regulation which invoked it, and quoted it as saying the invocation 'was' justified, not that it would be.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 4,253
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Bollocks. The EU have spent over four years banging on about the island of Ireland. They should all know about it.
    Anyone with the power to trigger the protocol absolutely should and no doubt does. And someone's name must be on that authorisation.

    Admitting stupidity is the politician's last line of defence. Claiming oversights here is the institutional equivalent. It's not in the least bit plausible that it is a satisfactory explanation, as it raises a whole bunch of other questions, but it provides an out, which those affected like the Irish PM can pretend to accept.

    But there's still that issue of who said 'do it', and why that was all that was needed.

    Have a pleasant night everyone - hopefully this is the point the EU stopped trying to pick a fight and started rolling back. With any luck AZ can rustle up some additional vaccine so they can save face and back down.
    Totally no Az don't need to save face....the commision are the bad guys here
This discussion has been closed.