Trump’s desperate attempt to bully the Georgia Secretary of State shows the lengths he’ll go to hang
Comments
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Oh, dear, you think the IFR is an invariant law of nature.contrarian said:
99.5% chance for parents, certainly.Andy_Cooke said:
No.contrarian said:
there's already a 99.5% chance though, right?Richard_Tyndall said:
At least there will be a better chance they will still have parents and grandparents tomorrow.contrarian said:
I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
Ages 45-64 have 7-10 times as much likelihood of being hospitalised as dying.
They get hospitalised when a doctor believes they need it to pull through. Otherwise, in current circumstances, they'll get sent home.
When the hospitals are overwhelmed, we then find out how high the IFR goes for each age band without assistance. Spoiler: it's somewhere between the current IFR and the current hospitalisation rate, and likely closer to the latter than the former.
So - considerably higher.0 -
I wonder if Trump is planning to clear off after his rally today. If Britain in general and Scotland in particular locks down more than other countries, though, he would presumably have second thoughts.
https://twitter.com/hazydav/status/13461088460459417630 -
Schools back in Wales, some today some on Wednesday, and have not heard anything yet from DrakefordAlistair said:So are people really saying Sturgeon preempted Boris and that's Boris's plan was to have schools go back for a day before closing them.
Really?
Really???
Is he going to follow and the other question is has there been a cobra meeting that has promoted today's changes0 -
Best of luck - and let us know on PB when you come up and I will say welcome to Scotland.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes, if they get arsey that will be the response. He used to run a picture framing business. In the last lockdown he cleared out their warehouse with the intention to liquidate the stock. When I went for a tour in October progress on that front had been slow. As well as the 6-bed former bank manager's house we are buying the former bank it is attached to. The bank, complete with its various large storerooms and both floors of the double-length garage were still rammed full of stock.Carnyx said:
You could offer to deal with the junk for them? I would if I were you.RochdalePioneers said:
Was an acceptable reason to travel last time. If there is a delay it will be because the old couple who are selling decide its too dangerous to hire the skip they were planning to fill with all their accumulated debris.ydoethur said:
It doesn't sound too hopeful for your planned move RP. Or is that exempted?RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
If need be leave whatever you can't sell and I will skip / burn them.3 -
Yes.Carnyx said:
THat's a bit like saying that the concrete fence on the Inner German Border wasn't the frontier of East Germany. But yes it was part of a zone of defence.ydoethur said:
Hadrian's wall (apart from the extreme western end) is nowhere near the Scottish border, nor did it form the boundary of the Roman Empire.algarkirk said:
The Romans tried that and ended up having to spend the entire GDP building a wall so big they couldn't take it away when they left and it's still there. It's murder keeping the Celtic Britons and the Picts apart. And now you have to sort the Saxons as well.RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
NB Don't tell the thought police but a great friend of mine has just crossed one of the 28 borders into Scotland and hasn't been shot. Yet.
Have you been to the patrol road and line of towers at the Gask Ridge in Perthshire? The northernmost surviving border zone of the Imperium Romanum.
There's some pretty decent Roman stuff in southern Scotland, although Hadrian's Wall is of course more famous.
I think my favourite though was an awesome pun by a Scottish archaeologist, Gordon Maxwell, on the biggest mystery of the Flavian campaigns under Agricola - where did Mons Graupius take place?
He mischievously called his book 'A Battle Lost: Romans and Caledonians at Mons Graupius.'1 -
In the EU the executive is appointed by elected governments and approved by an elected parliament. I grant you not as direct by a long way as the American system but hardly not democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Also "However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA."algarkirk said:
" I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.kjh said:
That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.Leon said:
You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.kjh said:
I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.Philip_Thompson said:
Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.kjh said:
Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.MarqueeMark said:
Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.kjh said:"Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."
Suppose it will keep the queues down!
Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.
The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.
If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
Executive power in the USA is vested in the President. I believe they just had an election of some sort for him.
The UK system which is considered a democracy the executive is appointed by a PM like the American system, but the PM is not directly elected like the USA system. He/She is elected by a subset of the elected members of parliament who are elected by a dubious voting system.
All of these systems are far from perfect, but I would suggest that it would be illogical to conclude in the same breath that 2 were democratic and 1 not which was my only argument. They are all democratic to some extent and all have flaws.0 -
Some of us saw the EU for what it was many years ago, non-democratic and incapable of reform- and the anti-democratic farce of Spitzenkandidat was mere confirmation of that truth, after the event of Brexit. There have been many other examples over the decades.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You'd have to be remarkably well-informed to have known in 2016 that the EU was going to drop the Spitzenkandidat system in 2019 having only adopted it in 2014.Leon said:
It was "Why Brexit" for a lot of brighter, more intelligent, well-informed people, so I understand why it did not impact you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I doubt that the failure of EU leaders to adopt the Spitzenkandidat system in the wake of the 2019 European elections was a major factor in the 2016 Brexit referendum. So probably not "Why Brexit".Leon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I realise this stuff is complex, when all you care about IS MY BLOODY RIGHT TO RETIRE TO THE ALGARVE, but do try.1 -
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
1 -
1 - Wrong, we can see the economic damage in other places.contrarian said:
What I am stating is fact. What you are stating is a projection. It does not existAndy_Cooke said:
And who would, if you had your way, face even more enormous economic and social challenges due to the inaction of the previous one.contrarian said:
People who are 'serious' about Corona really are extremely flippant about the incredibly important issue of the education of the next generation.BluestBlue said:
Did you really enjoy school that much?contrarian said:
I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
A generation which will face enormous economic challenges, thanks to the actions of the previous ones.
See Niall Ferguson for details.
2 - Are you still wittering on about the Imperial College model? When, ten months on, it's turned out to be pretty bloody close?
About 10% of us have been infected and 75,000 are dead. The model projected between 250,000 and 500,000 dead depending on our actions.
If anything, it's looking a bit over-optimistic right now.2 -
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You do have control over who you elect just as much as I do. You elect an individual constituency representative to work on your behalf. Now I am the first to admit that the party system and the whips corrupt that principle - just as they corrupt every political system in practically every part of the world. But if your idea of democracy is that your candidate always wins and always does what you want then I am afraid you are living in cloud cuckoo land.kjh said:
Rather misses the point I was making. I gave an example, it was not supposed to be identical. I doubt there is one. No democracy is perfect and there are many different types, but to suggest we have a democracy and the EU doesn't was the point I was responding to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Also "However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA."algarkirk said:
" I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.kjh said:
That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.Leon said:
You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.kjh said:
I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.Philip_Thompson said:
Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.kjh said:
Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.MarqueeMark said:
Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.kjh said:"Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."
Suppose it will keep the queues down!
Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.
The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.
If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
Executive power in the USA is vested in the President. I believe they just had an election of some sort for him.
We have a democracy. It isn't perfect. So does the EU. It also isn't perfect.
How is 'I have no control over who I elect not a great argument'. I am not alone in thinking FPTP is a very poor system which disenfranchises a significant number of the population.0 -
The kids are made of hardy stuff up here. You'd be surprised.Leon said:
Also, I doubt outdoor playgrounds are that popular in Scotland in January, anywayLostPassword said:
It's outdoors. Not so long close to the same people as when sat in a classroom.Richard_Tyndall said:
The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?DavidL said:
Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.NerysHughes said:Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?
One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.1 -
And teachers. Don't forget teachers.SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.1 -
Raffensberger might have said "You're asking me to add nearly 12K Republican votes, Mr. President. But really you ought to be giving me credit for my role in voter suppression: I likely subtracted 198K Democratic votes even before there were any votes to count."
https://saportareport.com/organizations-sue-georgia-secretary-of-state-over-purged-voter-rolls/uncategorized/raisa-habersham/0 -
I wonder if there is anyone on the Scilly Isles to enforce a lockdown. I was there a couple of years back and don't remember seeing a police station. I guess there must be one, but it can't be very big.CarlottaVance said:
They've probably forgotten about the Scilly Isles and will have to rush out a statement at 2a.m.MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
0 -
Only introduced in May so March was not graded. Started on 3.5 in May not 4!Benpointer said:https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1346113547319865344?s=20
I think we were only at level 4 in March. Ergo restrictions need to be stricter than in March.0 -
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
0 -
Professor Shane Crotty (et al), who first spotted the cross-reactivity immediately penned an article emphasising that it was incredibly and implausibly unlikely that it would provide much, if any, discernible benefit, anyway.Nigelb said:
Promptly ignored by that quack Yeadon and Toby Young's disciples, of course, so we shouldn't expect further evidence to erode the delusions.0 -
Jezza will be there in person then...CarlottaVance said:0 -
What do they do when shipping to other countries with their own sales tax?ThomasNashe said:Another step on the ascent towards the sunlit uplands:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721
Note that some bike shops on the continent had already stopped shipping to the UK because our law said that they had to set up the front brakes on the right. This increased their overheads because the continental style is to have the front brake on the left.
eg https://www.bike-discount.de/en sold me a mountain bike last year but won't now, but they will send parts. I don't think that's necessarily down to Brexit.0 -
Yep - I knew I had forgotten one!!ydoethur said:
And teachers. Don't forget teachers.SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
0 -
More selfish than leaving towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit and dead grandparents (and, in lower numbers, parents) to the next and future generations?contrarian said:
Sorry, but leaving absolutely everything....towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit, to the next and future generations is not the least worst option. It is the most completely selfish cowards option.kle4 said:
There are costs to them not to be flippant about. It does not follow that no one has considered those costs and reluctantly concluded it is a least worsr option.contrarian said:
People who are 'serious' about Corona really are extremely flippant about the incredibly important issue of the education of the next generation.BluestBlue said:
Did you really enjoy school that much?contrarian said:
I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
A generation which will face enormous economic challenges, thanks to the actions of the previous ones.
And I suspect many on here know that.
Let it rip will trash the economy just as badly, if not worse (internationally, economic impact correlates with deaths more convincingly than inversely with deaths). Schools will close anyway if too many teachers are off sick and/or parents will refuse to send their children. Overwhelming the NHS will kill many not-infected through delayed/cancelled treatments (also happens if treatments are cancelled in lockdowns of course, which should be avoided as much as possible)0 -
But the "Brussels blame game" will be much less effective for HMG, and also much less true (because EU directives really will have no force any more, unless we want them to)SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I know you despise Brexit, but disputing that it has significant democratic benefits ("sovereignty" if you like) is a game for fools. I do not dispute that Brexit will have some serious economic costs - it already has, and they will continue for some time.
We all had to make a complex, personal decision whether one outweighed the other.0 -
If Trump really was to arrive in Scotland evading lawyers this week, as per the latest febrile twitter rumour, just on the verge of much tougher lockdowns than Washington, it really would cap a bizarre year and one to forget.Theuniondivvie said:
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
0 -
Yes, Ireland is in a right old state. It has gone unnoticed. It now has the fastest growth of Covid in the EU.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
You are referring to all Governments of course. Whilst this Government is certainly worse and has some interesting new targets in the blame game, it is by no means alone in blaming something other than itself for its own failings.SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
Removing one obvious target for that - particularly one that often was at least partly responsible - seems a good thing to me.0 -
As ever the reason is simple, Airoprts , ports etc are all reserved powers to Westminster so she is not allowed to close them. Best she can do is ask police to do random checks on the land border between Scotland and England within the Scottish laws on travel and covid restrictions.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
Do you boys ever think before slagging off the Scottish government. RESERVED POWERS let it sink in0 -
0
-
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
Interesting you pick out Jezza and not JRM for number of MPs attending parliament......FrancisUrquhart said:
Jezza will be there in person then...CarlottaVance said:0 -
Contrarian doesn't think anyone is actually dying of Covid.Selebian said:
More selfish than leaving towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit and dead grandparents (and, in lower numbers, parents) to the next and future generations?contrarian said:
Sorry, but leaving absolutely everything....towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit, to the next and future generations is not the least worst option. It is the most completely selfish cowards option.kle4 said:
There are costs to them not to be flippant about. It does not follow that no one has considered those costs and reluctantly concluded it is a least worsr option.contrarian said:
People who are 'serious' about Corona really are extremely flippant about the incredibly important issue of the education of the next generation.BluestBlue said:
Did you really enjoy school that much?contrarian said:
I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
A generation which will face enormous economic challenges, thanks to the actions of the previous ones.
And I suspect many on here know that.
Let it rip will trash the economy just as badly, if not worse (internationally, economic impact correlates with deaths more convincingly than inversely with deaths). Schools will close anyway if too many teachers are off sick and/or parents will refuse to send their children. Overwhelming the NHS will kill many not-infected through delayed/cancelled treatments (also happens if treatments are cancelled in lockdowns of course, which should be avoided as much as possible)
It is an invented panic to control the population.
Wake up sheeple.0 -
Good luck with that. All of our "recycling centres" or dumps will now be closed again for a month, possibly longer. Not ideal when you are moving house.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes, if they get arsey that will be the response. He used to run a picture framing business. In the last lockdown he cleared out their warehouse with the intention to liquidate the stock. When I went for a tour in October progress on that front had been slow. As well as the 6-bed former bank manager's house we are buying the former bank it is attached to. The bank, complete with its various large storerooms and both floors of the double-length garage were still rammed full of stock.Carnyx said:
You could offer to deal with the junk for them? I would if I were you.RochdalePioneers said:
Was an acceptable reason to travel last time. If there is a delay it will be because the old couple who are selling decide its too dangerous to hire the skip they were planning to fill with all their accumulated debris.ydoethur said:
It doesn't sound too hopeful for your planned move RP. Or is that exempted?RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
If need be leave whatever you can't sell and I will skip / burn them.0 -
You think the cabinet get a say in decisions? So 1980s.....CarlottaVance said:
Or a third.Selebian said:
It seems we have two possibilitiesOnlyLivingBoy said:
Ha I bet all you people who said Johnson would be following Sturgeon by 5pm tonight feel pretty fucking stupid now.CarlottaVance said:
(i) Sturgeon is an indecisive idiot who nonetheless somehow has a mole deep within Downing Street enabling her to announce Johnson's restrictions as her own before they are announced in England and look like she is the one in control of the situation and decisive
(ii) Johnson is the indecisive idiot
Occam's razor?
Officials discuss options behind the scenes and politicians announce changes when they've agreed them with their cabinets?1 -
I would suggest you go and look at who is able to initiate legislation in the EU. It certainly isn't the elected MEPs.kjh said:
In the EU the executive is appointed by elected governments and approved by an elected parliament. I grant you not as direct by a long way as the American system but hardly not democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Also "However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA."algarkirk said:
" I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.kjh said:
That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.Leon said:
You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.kjh said:
I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.Philip_Thompson said:
Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.kjh said:
Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.MarqueeMark said:
Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.kjh said:"Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."
Suppose it will keep the queues down!
Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.
The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.
If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
Executive power in the USA is vested in the President. I believe they just had an election of some sort for him.
The UK system which is considered a democracy the executive is appointed by a PM like the American system, but the PM is not directly elected like the USA system. He/She is elected by a subset of the elected members of parliament who are elected by a dubious voting system.
All of these systems are far from perfect, but I would suggest that it would be illogical to conclude in the same breath that 2 were democratic and 1 not which was my only argument. They are all democratic to some extent and all have flaws.1 -
Have you considered a career at the DfE?SouthamObserver said:
Yep - I knew I had forgotten one!!ydoethur said:
And teachers. Don't forget teachers.SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.2 -
Exactly not southern jessy boys, get a grip Sean.LostPassword said:
The kids are made of hardy stuff up here. You'd be surprised.Leon said:
Also, I doubt outdoor playgrounds are that popular in Scotland in January, anywayLostPassword said:
It's outdoors. Not so long close to the same people as when sat in a classroom.Richard_Tyndall said:
The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?DavidL said:
Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.NerysHughes said:Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?
One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.0 -
It's funny because Brexit actually benefits me personally as it makes our company more valuable because we are, outside of events, Brexit-proof and largely digital. Maybe I don't see the end of the Brussels blame game as a benefit because I never bought into it in the first place. It always seemed to me that immigrants, those on benefits, the BBC, teachers etc were the prime targets for government blame.Leon said:
But the "Brussels blame game" will be much less effective for HMG, and also much less true (because EU directives really will have no force any more, unless we want them to)SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I know you despise Brexit, but disputing that it has significant democratic benefits ("sovereignty" if you like) is a game for fools. I do not dispute that Brexit will have some serious economic costs - it already has, and they will continue for some time.
We all had to make a complex, personal decision whether one outweighed the other.
0 -
Margaret Ferrier has already booked her train ticket.FrancisUrquhart said:
Jezza will be there in person then...CarlottaVance said:4 -
It is illegal to travel from tier 4 to tier 3.Theuniondivvie said:
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
I am worried Shetland is super fucked. Well see when the numbers are out tomorrow. I fear seriously grim figures.0 -
Bit harsh on yourself there Malc. We always thought of your insults as being more teenage.malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
Indeed you have.malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?
0 -
The reason I pick him out is because he keeps refusing to follow guidelines and advice. He has broken both the rules on numerous occasions and take little notice of guidance, and early on in the pandemic insisted on attending parliament in person.noneoftheabove said:
Interesting you pick out Jezza and not JRM for number of MPs attending parliament......FrancisUrquhart said:
Jezza will be there in person then...CarlottaVance said:0 -
[[previous edit deleted as incorrect]]Benpointer said:https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1346113547319865344?s=20
I think we were only at level 4 in March. Ergo restrictions need to be stricter than in March.
This was the new 5 level scale unveiled as we came out of lockdown in May
We went into level 3.5.
Level 5 was cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria1 -
It's just that the point being made is leaky.Leon said:
It's not me who is CONSTANTLY bringing it up. You know I far prefer to talk about mass death and apocalypse.Theuniondivvie said:
I thought Brexit as a subject was no more, has ceased to be, and bereft of life, it rests in peace.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
If we were ruled by Brussels rather than Westminster there was no need to be scared of PM Corbyn, was there?
And yet.0 -
Depends which Government you are talking about.SouthamObserver said:
It's funny because Brexit actually benefits me personally as it makes our company more valuable because we are, outside of events, Brexit-proof and largely digital. Maybe I don't see the end of the Brussels blame game as a benefit because I never bought into it in the first place. It always seemed to me that immigrants, those on benefits, the BBC, teachers etc were the prime targets for government blame.Leon said:
But the "Brussels blame game" will be much less effective for HMG, and also much less true (because EU directives really will have no force any more, unless we want them to)SouthamObserver said:
The government will always blame others for the messes it creates. Off the top of my head: the BBC, the civil service, businesses, the courts, lawyers, immigrants, the EU (of course it will), Remoaners, liberal metropolitans, the Scots and the Irish. Many millions will cheer them on as they do this.Leon said:
Yep. The EU is a noble idea that has turned into a grotesque caricature of itself, and seems incapable of real reform. At least with Brexit (for all ITS faults) we will have a government that is no longer able to blame Brussels or hide behind "EU directives". It is up to us, whatever happens. That is another enormous benefit of Leaving.HYUFD said:
Sadly looks like you were right, so the President remains appointed by backroom dealsLeon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I know you despise Brexit, but disputing that it has significant democratic benefits ("sovereignty" if you like) is a game for fools. I do not dispute that Brexit will have some serious economic costs - it already has, and they will continue for some time.
We all had to make a complex, personal decision whether one outweighed the other.0 -
Speak for yourself....ydoethur said:
Bit harsh on yourself there Malc. We always thought of your insults as being more teenage.malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
Fire out the back will soon solve thatDavidL said:
Good luck with that. All of our "recycling centres" or dumps will now be closed again for a month, possibly longer. Not ideal when you are moving house.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes, if they get arsey that will be the response. He used to run a picture framing business. In the last lockdown he cleared out their warehouse with the intention to liquidate the stock. When I went for a tour in October progress on that front had been slow. As well as the 6-bed former bank manager's house we are buying the former bank it is attached to. The bank, complete with its various large storerooms and both floors of the double-length garage were still rammed full of stock.Carnyx said:
You could offer to deal with the junk for them? I would if I were you.RochdalePioneers said:
Was an acceptable reason to travel last time. If there is a delay it will be because the old couple who are selling decide its too dangerous to hire the skip they were planning to fill with all their accumulated debris.ydoethur said:
It doesn't sound too hopeful for your planned move RP. Or is that exempted?RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
If need be leave whatever you can't sell and I will skip / burn them.0 -
He did say commercial skips to be fair. Lockdown hopefully shouldn't affect that. THough I am sure you are quite right about the domestic waste dumps/recycling centres being closed.DavidL said:
Good luck with that. All of our "recycling centres" or dumps will now be closed again for a month, possibly longer. Not ideal when you are moving house.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes, if they get arsey that will be the response. He used to run a picture framing business. In the last lockdown he cleared out their warehouse with the intention to liquidate the stock. When I went for a tour in October progress on that front had been slow. As well as the 6-bed former bank manager's house we are buying the former bank it is attached to. The bank, complete with its various large storerooms and both floors of the double-length garage were still rammed full of stock.Carnyx said:
You could offer to deal with the junk for them? I would if I were you.RochdalePioneers said:
Was an acceptable reason to travel last time. If there is a delay it will be because the old couple who are selling decide its too dangerous to hire the skip they were planning to fill with all their accumulated debris.ydoethur said:
It doesn't sound too hopeful for your planned move RP. Or is that exempted?RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
If need be leave whatever you can't sell and I will skip / burn them.0 -
Leon said:
Some of us saw the EU for what it was many years ago, non-democratic and incapable of reform- and the anti-democratic farce of Spitzenkandidat was mere confirmation of that truth, after the event of Brexit. There have been many other examples over the decades.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You'd have to be remarkably well-informed to have known in 2016 that the EU was going to drop the Spitzenkandidat system in 2019 having only adopted it in 2014.Leon said:
It was "Why Brexit" for a lot of brighter, more intelligent, well-informed people, so I understand why it did not impact you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I doubt that the failure of EU leaders to adopt the Spitzenkandidat system in the wake of the 2019 European elections was a major factor in the 2016 Brexit referendum. So probably not "Why Brexit".Leon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I realise this stuff is complex, when all you care about IS MY BLOODY RIGHT TO RETIRE TO THE ALGARVE, but do try.
Your argument was specifically about the failure to retain the Spitzencandidat system at the latest EU elections, which you claimed was "Why Brexit" in 2016. I merely pointed out that the timeline for that claim was implausible. If you were making a broader claim (ie this isn't "Why Brexit" but it is part of a pattern of behaviour that pre-dated the 2016 vote and explains Brexit) that is fine, but that wasn't the claim you made previously. Given that the EU had adopted the Spitzenkandidat process in 2014, prior to the Brexit vote, and appeared likely at that time to retain the system for future votes, it seems a stretch to bring this whole issue into the argument ex post. Indeed if I recall correctly the fact that the Spitzenkandidat process had been used and had given us a Commission president that we didn't like (Juncker) was the beef at that point (although since the Tories had taken themselves out of Juncker's centre-right grouping in order to caucus with a ragtag collection of neo-fascists as part of a prior bout of euro-petulance they couldn't really complain that the EPP had picked Juncker as its candidate).
You should try to write more clearly in future, and avoid making personal attacks on people who disagree with you or point out the inconsistencies in your claims. FWIW I have never been to the Algarve and have no interest in retiring there or indeed anywhere else in the EU.1 -
I'm not going to get into a FPTP debate, but I just don't. I am 66 and I could tell you before the election who was going to get elected everywhere I have lived beforehand even if they were a monkey. Their personal capabilities were irrelevant.Richard_Tyndall said:
You do have control over who you elect just as much as I do. You elect an individual constituency representative to work on your behalf. Now I am the first to admit that the party system and the whips corrupt that principle - just as they corrupt every political system in practically every part of the world. But if your idea of democracy is that your candidate always wins and always does what you want then I am afraid you are living in cloud cuckoo land.kjh said:
Rather misses the point I was making. I gave an example, it was not supposed to be identical. I doubt there is one. No democracy is perfect and there are many different types, but to suggest we have a democracy and the EU doesn't was the point I was responding to.Richard_Tyndall said:
Also "However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA."algarkirk said:
" I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.kjh said:
That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.Leon said:
You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.kjh said:
I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.Philip_Thompson said:
Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.kjh said:
Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.MarqueeMark said:
Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.kjh said:"Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."
Suppose it will keep the queues down!
Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.
The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.
If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
Executive power in the USA is vested in the President. I believe they just had an election of some sort for him.
We have a democracy. It isn't perfect. So does the EU. It also isn't perfect.
How is 'I have no control over who I elect not a great argument'. I am not alone in thinking FPTP is a very poor system which disenfranchises a significant number of the population.
No I don't expect my candidate to win necessarily, but I would like a better representation of views and a less confrontational parliament and a constituency MP who actually took on my issues on (actually mine isn't too bad) which is a challenge if he is ideologically opposed to them, or even just plain too lazy, as I have no where to go with my gripe.0 -
JRM could at least argue about his role requiring him or some such, though really in a full lockdown or equivalent I doubt it. But Corbyn is a nobody now.noneoftheabove said:
Interesting you pick out Jezza and not JRM for number of MPs attending parliament......FrancisUrquhart said:
Jezza will be there in person then...CarlottaVance said:0 -
IS there any particular reason why Shetland is bad?!Alistair said:
It is illegal to travel from tier 4 to tier 3.Theuniondivvie said:
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
I am worried Shetland is super fucked. Well see when the numbers are out tomorrow. I fear seriously grim figures.
Personally speaking, if I lived on a smallish island, like that - or the Scillies or Lewis or wherever - I would be furious that the local council didn't quarantine the place on March 1 2020.
I get that it is more difficult to close down an island as big and populous as Great Britain (but they should have tried) but Shetland should be a doddle. Test everyone who comes in and out. Quarantine. How hard can it be?0 -
No its influenza that nobody is dying of any more, right?Alistair said:
Contrarian doesn't think anyone is actually dying of Covid.Selebian said:
More selfish than leaving towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit and dead grandparents (and, in lower numbers, parents) to the next and future generations?contrarian said:
Sorry, but leaving absolutely everything....towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit, to the next and future generations is not the least worst option. It is the most completely selfish cowards option.kle4 said:
There are costs to them not to be flippant about. It does not follow that no one has considered those costs and reluctantly concluded it is a least worsr option.contrarian said:
People who are 'serious' about Corona really are extremely flippant about the incredibly important issue of the education of the next generation.BluestBlue said:
Did you really enjoy school that much?contrarian said:
No I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
A generation which will face enormous economic challenges, thanks to the actions of the previous ones.
And I suspect many on here know that.
Let it rip will trash the economy just as badly, if not worse (internationally, economic impact correlates with deaths more convincingly than inversely with deaths). Schools will close anyway if too many teachers are off sick and/or parents will refuse to send their children. Overwhelming the NHS will kill many not-infected through delayed/cancelled treatments (also happens if treatments are cancelled in lockdowns of course, which should be avoided as much as possible)
It is an invented panic to control the population.
Wake up sheeple.
0 -
Wouldn't want that with all the lead paint and metallic paint on the frames,. mind.malcolmg said:
Fire out the back will soon solve thatDavidL said:
Good luck with that. All of our "recycling centres" or dumps will now be closed again for a month, possibly longer. Not ideal when you are moving house.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes, if they get arsey that will be the response. He used to run a picture framing business. In the last lockdown he cleared out their warehouse with the intention to liquidate the stock. When I went for a tour in October progress on that front had been slow. As well as the 6-bed former bank manager's house we are buying the former bank it is attached to. The bank, complete with its various large storerooms and both floors of the double-length garage were still rammed full of stock.Carnyx said:
You could offer to deal with the junk for them? I would if I were you.RochdalePioneers said:
Was an acceptable reason to travel last time. If there is a delay it will be because the old couple who are selling decide its too dangerous to hire the skip they were planning to fill with all their accumulated debris.ydoethur said:
It doesn't sound too hopeful for your planned move RP. Or is that exempted?RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
If need be leave whatever you can't sell and I will skip / burn them.0 -
Bit harsh on yourself, I mean your usual comments are usually 'stick your comments up your urchie you schemie shoes wearing tramp.'malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
If I were feeling malicious I would wonder if Contrarian is actually employed by the government to play devil's advocate.Alistair said:
Contrarian doesn't think anyone is actually dying of Covid.Selebian said:
More selfish than leaving towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit and dead grandparents (and, in lower numbers, parents) to the next and future generations?contrarian said:
Sorry, but leaving absolutely everything....towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit, to the next and future generations is not the least worst option. It is the most completely selfish cowards option.kle4 said:
There are costs to them not to be flippant about. It does not follow that no one has considered those costs and reluctantly concluded it is a least worsr option.contrarian said:
People who are 'serious' about Corona really are extremely flippant about the incredibly important issue of the education of the next generation.BluestBlue said:
Did you really enjoy school that much?contrarian said:
I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
A generation which will face enormous economic challenges, thanks to the actions of the previous ones.
And I suspect many on here know that.
Let it rip will trash the economy just as badly, if not worse (internationally, economic impact correlates with deaths more convincingly than inversely with deaths). Schools will close anyway if too many teachers are off sick and/or parents will refuse to send their children. Overwhelming the NHS will kill many not-infected through delayed/cancelled treatments (also happens if treatments are cancelled in lockdowns of course, which should be avoided as much as possible)
It is an invented panic to control the population.
Wake up sheeple.
Thereby implanting in everyone's mind the firm view that those opposed to government policy are in fact stark staring raving bollocking crazy.1 -
-
A Nationalist eco-warrior writes.malcolmg said:
Fire out the back will soon solve thatDavidL said:
Good luck with that. All of our "recycling centres" or dumps will now be closed again for a month, possibly longer. Not ideal when you are moving house.RochdalePioneers said:
Yes, if they get arsey that will be the response. He used to run a picture framing business. In the last lockdown he cleared out their warehouse with the intention to liquidate the stock. When I went for a tour in October progress on that front had been slow. As well as the 6-bed former bank manager's house we are buying the former bank it is attached to. The bank, complete with its various large storerooms and both floors of the double-length garage were still rammed full of stock.Carnyx said:
You could offer to deal with the junk for them? I would if I were you.RochdalePioneers said:
Was an acceptable reason to travel last time. If there is a delay it will be because the old couple who are selling decide its too dangerous to hire the skip they were planning to fill with all their accumulated debris.ydoethur said:
It doesn't sound too hopeful for your planned move RP. Or is that exempted?RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
If need be leave whatever you can't sell and I will skip / burn them.0 -
There's such a thing as sensible people on Twitter?
https://twitter.com/s8mb/status/13461237112550809600 -
7 year olds aren't so sweary.MarqueeMark said:
Speak for yourself....ydoethur said:
Bit harsh on yourself there Malc. We always thought of your insults as being more teenage.malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
I suggest we let the argument drop, old bean. We will not persuade each other, and we risk boring everyone else.OnlyLivingBoy said:Leon said:
Some of us saw the EU for what it was many years ago, non-democratic and incapable of reform- and the anti-democratic farce of Spitzenkandidat was mere confirmation of that truth, after the event of Brexit. There have been many other examples over the decades.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You'd have to be remarkably well-informed to have known in 2016 that the EU was going to drop the Spitzenkandidat system in 2019 having only adopted it in 2014.Leon said:
It was "Why Brexit" for a lot of brighter, more intelligent, well-informed people, so I understand why it did not impact you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I doubt that the failure of EU leaders to adopt the Spitzenkandidat system in the wake of the 2019 European elections was a major factor in the 2016 Brexit referendum. So probably not "Why Brexit".Leon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I realise this stuff is complex, when all you care about IS MY BLOODY RIGHT TO RETIRE TO THE ALGARVE, but do try.
Your argument was specifically about the failure to retain the Spitzencandidat system at the latest EU elections, which you claimed was "Why Brexit" in 2016. I merely pointed out that the timeline for that claim was implausible. If you were making a broader claim (ie this isn't "Why Brexit" but it is part of a pattern of behaviour that pre-dated the 2016 vote and explains Brexit) that is fine, but that wasn't the claim you made previously. Given that the EU had adopted the Spitzenkandidat process in 2014, prior to the Brexit vote, and appeared likely at that time to retain the system for future votes, it seems a stretch to bring this whole issue into the argument ex post. Indeed if I recall correctly the fact that the Spitzenkandidat process had been used and had given us a Commission president that we didn't like (Juncker) was the beef at that point (although since the Tories had taken themselves out of Juncker's centre-right grouping in order to caucus with a ragtag collection of neo-fascists as part of a prior bout of euro-petulance they couldn't really complain that the EPP had picked Juncker as its candidate).
You should try to write more clearly in future, and avoid making personal attacks on people who disagree with you or point out the inconsistencies in your claims. FWIW I have never been to the Algarve and have no interest in retiring there or indeed anywhere else in the EU.
This is one reason why I believe Brexit will vanish from the news, almost entirely, in the end. It has become very boring to most people.0 -
But the Cheltenham Festival must still go ahead....Leon said:
Yes, Ireland is in a right old state. It has gone unnoticed. It now has the fastest growth of Covid in the EU.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
Nornia is equally bad though.Leon said:
Yes, Ireland is in a right old state. It has gone unnoticed. It now has the fastest growth of Covid in the EU.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
Contrarian by name...ydoethur said:
If I were feeling malicious I would wonder if Contrarian is actually employed by the government to play devil's advocate.Alistair said:
Contrarian doesn't think anyone is actually dying of Covid.Selebian said:
More selfish than leaving towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit and dead grandparents (and, in lower numbers, parents) to the next and future generations?contrarian said:
Sorry, but leaving absolutely everything....towering debt, smashed economy, educational deficit, to the next and future generations is not the least worst option. It is the most completely selfish cowards option.kle4 said:
There are costs to them not to be flippant about. It does not follow that no one has considered those costs and reluctantly concluded it is a least worsr option.contrarian said:
People who are 'serious' about Corona really are extremely flippant about the incredibly important issue of the education of the next generation.BluestBlue said:
Did you really enjoy school that much?contrarian said:
I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.CarlottaVance said:Peston addressing the nation:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1346110314224340993?s=20
A generation which will face enormous economic challenges, thanks to the actions of the previous ones.
And I suspect many on here know that.
Let it rip will trash the economy just as badly, if not worse (internationally, economic impact correlates with deaths more convincingly than inversely with deaths). Schools will close anyway if too many teachers are off sick and/or parents will refuse to send their children. Overwhelming the NHS will kill many not-infected through delayed/cancelled treatments (also happens if treatments are cancelled in lockdowns of course, which should be avoided as much as possible)
It is an invented panic to control the population.
Wake up sheeple.
Thereby implanting in everyone's mind the firm view that those opposed to government policy are in fact stark staring raving bollocking crazy.0 -
I see Nicola didn't pull her punches in the press conference:
https://www.tiktok.com/@paulhutton88/video/6912108733392866562?lang=en
NSFW-ish.1 -
Technically it isn't the schools that are unsafe, it is the homes that the blighters in school go back to.Scott_xP said:
Boris making himself a hostage to fortune (as usual).2 -
I agree 100%Leon said:
I suggest we let the argument drop, old bean. We will not persuade each other, and we risk boring everyone else.OnlyLivingBoy said:Leon said:
Some of us saw the EU for what it was many years ago, non-democratic and incapable of reform- and the anti-democratic farce of Spitzenkandidat was mere confirmation of that truth, after the event of Brexit. There have been many other examples over the decades.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You'd have to be remarkably well-informed to have known in 2016 that the EU was going to drop the Spitzenkandidat system in 2019 having only adopted it in 2014.Leon said:
It was "Why Brexit" for a lot of brighter, more intelligent, well-informed people, so I understand why it did not impact you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I doubt that the failure of EU leaders to adopt the Spitzenkandidat system in the wake of the 2019 European elections was a major factor in the 2016 Brexit referendum. So probably not "Why Brexit".Leon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I realise this stuff is complex, when all you care about IS MY BLOODY RIGHT TO RETIRE TO THE ALGARVE, but do try.
Your argument was specifically about the failure to retain the Spitzencandidat system at the latest EU elections, which you claimed was "Why Brexit" in 2016. I merely pointed out that the timeline for that claim was implausible. If you were making a broader claim (ie this isn't "Why Brexit" but it is part of a pattern of behaviour that pre-dated the 2016 vote and explains Brexit) that is fine, but that wasn't the claim you made previously. Given that the EU had adopted the Spitzenkandidat process in 2014, prior to the Brexit vote, and appeared likely at that time to retain the system for future votes, it seems a stretch to bring this whole issue into the argument ex post. Indeed if I recall correctly the fact that the Spitzenkandidat process had been used and had given us a Commission president that we didn't like (Juncker) was the beef at that point (although since the Tories had taken themselves out of Juncker's centre-right grouping in order to caucus with a ragtag collection of neo-fascists as part of a prior bout of euro-petulance they couldn't really complain that the EPP had picked Juncker as its candidate).
You should try to write more clearly in future, and avoid making personal attacks on people who disagree with you or point out the inconsistencies in your claims. FWIW I have never been to the Algarve and have no interest in retiring there or indeed anywhere else in the EU.
This is one reason why I believe Brexit will vanish from the news, almost entirely, in the end. It has become very boring to most people.0 -
The twitter gab was that last week's Shetland outbreak originated with one couple returning with the plague. Grim if true.Leon said:
IS there any particular reason why Shetland is bad?!Alistair said:
It is illegal to travel from tier 4 to tier 3.Theuniondivvie said:
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
I am worried Shetland is super fucked. Well see when the numbers are out tomorrow. I fear seriously grim figures.
Personally speaking, if I lived on a smallish island, like that - or the Scillies or Lewis or wherever - I would be furious that the local council didn't quarantine the place on March 1 2020.
I get that it is more difficult to close down an island as big and populous as Great Britain (but they should have tried) but Shetland should be a doddle. Test everyone who comes in and out. Quarantine. How hard can it be?0 -
0
-
The Fuzz have been very active around Coldstream already, less so at Lamberton.RochdalePioneers said:8pm? So won't be in effect from midnight tonight. An additional day or two of delay where people set out to cram in all the things they won't be allowed to do.
As for travel in Scotland my understanding is that the entire mainland is Tier 4 so essential travel only. Easy for the police to enforce. What about the border? Can only find a few relevant traffic cams and the A68 and A1 look absolutely dead.
Checks should be doable:
B7076 - close the road west of the M6 junction
A74(M) - easy checkpoint
Two minor roads to stop up
A7 checkpoint
Stop up the B6318 & 7 minor roads
A68 checkpoint - admittedly Carter Bar isn't going to be a pleasant posting in winter but plenty of space
Stop up the B6352, B6396, B6350 and a minor road, diverting all traffic towards
A697 Coldstream checkpoint
Stop up the B6470, B6461, A6105
A1 Lamberton checkpoint
The Carter Bar should take care of itself this evening...
0 -
He seems to have found the Export cask strength Turnip Juiceydoethur said:
Bit harsh on yourself there Malc. We always thought of your insults as being more teenage.malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
Not easy. Has a very busy airport - oil.Leon said:
IS there any particular reason why Shetland is bad?!Alistair said:
It is illegal to travel from tier 4 to tier 3.Theuniondivvie said:
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
I am worried Shetland is super fucked. Well see when the numbers are out tomorrow. I fear seriously grim figures.
Personally speaking, if I lived on a smallish island, like that - or the Scillies or Lewis or wherever - I would be furious that the local council didn't quarantine the place on March 1 2020.
I get that it is more difficult to close down an island as big and populous as Great Britain (but they should have tried) but Shetland should be a doddle. Test everyone who comes in and out. Quarantine. How hard can it be?0 -
Sadiq Khan joining Jeremy Hunt in calling for proper testing and quarantine at airports.
Perhaps they've been reading PB?
From April.1 -
Well between BRexit and lockdown it ain't going anywhere else right now.Malmesbury said:
He seems to have found the Export cask strength Turnip Juiceydoethur said:
Bit harsh on yourself there Malc. We always thought of your insults as being more teenage.malcolmg said:
Oh dear , a 7 year old appearsTheScreamingEagles said:
Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.Alistair said:
Scotland can't close the Airports.MaxPB said:Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.
The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?
Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?0 -
Wouldn't want to be that couple, if they get namedTheuniondivvie said:
The twitter gab was that last week's outbreak originated with one couple returning with the plague. Grim if true.Leon said:
IS there any particular reason why Shetland is bad?!Alistair said:
It is illegal to travel from tier 4 to tier 3.Theuniondivvie said:
Islands in Scotland are still level 3 which I find slightly mystifying though I guess travelling to them from level 4 areas is going to be hellish hard. I think there was a flurry of cases in Shetland last week.IanB2 said:
Or maybe they'll be left as proof that it isn't a national lockdown?MarqueeMark said:
Pity the poor Isles of Scilly: Tier 1 --> Tier 4.dixiedean said:So. If this is Tier 4 with schools closed, then that will be no change from the past 3 weeks for the vast majority of England then?
I am worried Shetland is super fucked. Well see when the numbers are out tomorrow. I fear seriously grim figures.
Personally speaking, if I lived on a smallish island, like that - or the Scillies or Lewis or wherever - I would be furious that the local council didn't quarantine the place on March 1 2020.
I get that it is more difficult to close down an island as big and populous as Great Britain (but they should have tried) but Shetland should be a doddle. Test everyone who comes in and out. Quarantine. How hard can it be?
I read today on the BBC that a bunch of Brits got stopped at Schiphol. One was on his way to a skiing holiday in Spain
How bewilderingly selfish, and stupid, do you have to be, to try and wander across Europe right now, to go on a skiing holiday??!!2 -
BrilliantPhilip_Thompson said:I see Nicola didn't pull her punches in the press conference:
https://www.tiktok.com/@paulhutton88/video/6912108733392866562?lang=en
NSFW-ish.0 -
Are we about to wish it was 2020 again?1
-
Are the press avoiding the airports question, because they all have at least one friend, colleague or family member currently abroad on holiday?2
-
deleted0
-
-
I'm a slightly-less-well-padded-but-still-bulky Midlander. I'm not nesh.DavidL said:
Don't know what its like for you southerners but that would be a bit chilly up here right now. Our hills are covered in snow and our cul-de-sac is like a skating rink again today.MarqueeMark said:
I was so ahead of my time....TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Not sure of the point being made. If you are pointing out a difference between the US and EU position I agree, but as I have always said they are all different; all with strengths and weaknesses. I simply and repeatedly pointed out that it is wrong to say the EU is not democratic if in the same breath other flawed systems are considered democratic.Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest you go and look at who is able to initiate legislation in the EU. It certainly isn't the elected MEPs.kjh said:
In the EU the executive is appointed by elected governments and approved by an elected parliament. I grant you not as direct by a long way as the American system but hardly not democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Also "However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA."algarkirk said:
" I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.kjh said:
That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.Leon said:
You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.kjh said:
I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.Philip_Thompson said:
Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.kjh said:
Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.MarqueeMark said:
Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.kjh said:"Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."
Suppose it will keep the queues down!
Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.
The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.
If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
Executive power in the USA is vested in the President. I believe they just had an election of some sort for him.
The UK system which is considered a democracy the executive is appointed by a PM like the American system, but the PM is not directly elected like the USA system. He/She is elected by a subset of the elected members of parliament who are elected by a dubious voting system.
All of these systems are far from perfect, but I would suggest that it would be illogical to conclude in the same breath that 2 were democratic and 1 not which was my only argument. They are all democratic to some extent and all have flaws.
If not democratic would you consider the EU to be a dictatorship? (I would like to know @Leon view on that also.)0 -
Ah, another COVID denier line of argument bites the dust. I wonder what they will pivot to next?Nigelb said:
(I had a thought that maybe they will blame the new variant: perhaps we *do* have herd immunity to the original COVID, just like Gupta predicted, but not the new one. Herd immunity to that is, of course, just around the corner... Ugh, let's not sully our minds by thinking down to their level.)
--AS0 -
Perhaps.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I agree 100%Leon said:
I suggest we let the argument drop, old bean. We will not persuade each other, and we risk boring everyone else.OnlyLivingBoy said:Leon said:
Some of us saw the EU for what it was many years ago, non-democratic and incapable of reform- and the anti-democratic farce of Spitzenkandidat was mere confirmation of that truth, after the event of Brexit. There have been many other examples over the decades.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You'd have to be remarkably well-informed to have known in 2016 that the EU was going to drop the Spitzenkandidat system in 2019 having only adopted it in 2014.Leon said:
It was "Why Brexit" for a lot of brighter, more intelligent, well-informed people, so I understand why it did not impact you.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I doubt that the failure of EU leaders to adopt the Spitzenkandidat system in the wake of the 2019 European elections was a major factor in the 2016 Brexit referendum. So probably not "Why Brexit".Leon said:
No, not any more. You're talking of the Spitzenkandidat process, I believe. An attempt to make the EU a shade less undemocratic.HYUFD said:
To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European ParliamentLeon said:
The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.kjh said:
Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?Leon said:kjh:
"That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.
So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."
********
"The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"
I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
Trouble is, at the last go, the EU decided to just dump the Spitzenkandidat process, making the EU even less democratic again.
Was anyone consulted? As in, the people of Europe? No, of course not.
https://www.politico.eu/article/who-killed-the-spitzenkandidat-european-parliament-election-2019-transition/
"It’s a Brussels murder mystery that would flummox even Hercule Poirot: Who killed the Spitzenkandidat?
"Accusations are flying over the death of the “lead candidate” system for choosing the president of the European Commission, the EU’s most powerful job. It’s a crime story that’s also a political drama — played out over multiple summits including a day-and-night marathon earlier this week — about how the European Union should be governed."
That, in a nutshell, is Why Brexit.
I realise this stuff is complex, when all you care about IS MY BLOODY RIGHT TO RETIRE TO THE ALGARVE, but do try.
Your argument was specifically about the failure to retain the Spitzencandidat system at the latest EU elections, which you claimed was "Why Brexit" in 2016. I merely pointed out that the timeline for that claim was implausible. If you were making a broader claim (ie this isn't "Why Brexit" but it is part of a pattern of behaviour that pre-dated the 2016 vote and explains Brexit) that is fine, but that wasn't the claim you made previously. Given that the EU had adopted the Spitzenkandidat process in 2014, prior to the Brexit vote, and appeared likely at that time to retain the system for future votes, it seems a stretch to bring this whole issue into the argument ex post. Indeed if I recall correctly the fact that the Spitzenkandidat process had been used and had given us a Commission president that we didn't like (Juncker) was the beef at that point (although since the Tories had taken themselves out of Juncker's centre-right grouping in order to caucus with a ragtag collection of neo-fascists as part of a prior bout of euro-petulance they couldn't really complain that the EPP had picked Juncker as its candidate).
You should try to write more clearly in future, and avoid making personal attacks on people who disagree with you or point out the inconsistencies in your claims. FWIW I have never been to the Algarve and have no interest in retiring there or indeed anywhere else in the EU.
This is one reason why I believe Brexit will vanish from the news, almost entirely, in the end. It has become very boring to most people.
Though the stories about trades unions in the 1970s, for example, were a far more refined and less novel form of tedium, but eventually saw Labour out of power for a decade.0 -
I have a strong suspicion that the Tokyo Olympics will be cancelled, quite soon. Japan is about to declare another state of emergency in the capital.TheScreamingEagles said:
There won't be a second postponement, the Games will just be abandoned. Very sad.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/04/suga-considers-new-state-of-emergency-for-tokyo-amid-covid-resurgence0 -
Starmer struggling on Sky in his quest to close schools
And in the meantime in Wales his labour colleague Drakeford is as of 2 hours ago refusing to close schools
BBC News - Covid: Closing schools in Wales a last resort, says health minister
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-555241500 -
Try again! I hope they arrest Trump and Melania upon touchdown for breaching Scottish travel restrictions. Yes they can land as thats a UK competency. But travel from Prestwick to a hotel in Turnberry for a holiday sounds like non-essential travel.WhisperingOracle said:I wonder if Trump is planning to clear off after his rally today. If Britain in general and Scotland in particular locks down more than other countries, though, he would presumably have second thoughts.
https://twitter.com/hazydav/status/1346108846045941763
Lock Him Up.0 -
NoJonathan said:Are we about to wish it was 2020 again?
0 -
More likely cos they've a trip booked themselves.Sandpit said:Are the press avoiding the airports question, because they all have at least one friend, colleague or family member currently abroad on holiday?
And don't forget the super rich. They pay good money to government policies which don't inconvenience them.1 -
Didn't quite hit the 60,000:
0 -
Thank goodness that Gordon isn't PM then.Scott_xP said:
The last thing we need with a blank cheque for authoritarian powers is someone eager to actually use them. If that sort of authoritarian power is to be wielded it should be by someone reluctant to use it, doing so as a last resort because there is no alternative.0 -
but.....but....Jonathan said:Are we about to wish it was 2020 again?
the vaccines....
they are our way out.....
Philip said.....0 -
I'm not sure how Euro 2021 takes place in its current from this year either.Leon said:
I have a strong suspicion that the Tokyo Olympics will be cancelled, quite soon. Japan is about to declare another state of emergency in the capital.TheScreamingEagles said:
There won't be a second postponement, the Games will just be abandoned. Very sad.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/04/suga-considers-new-state-of-emergency-for-tokyo-amid-covid-resurgence0 -
Monday handicap.....CarlottaVance said:Didn't quite hit the 60,000:
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The clown should stop messing about and go straight to Level Five and a Halfnoneoftheabove said:
Only introduced in May so March was not graded. Started on 3.5 in May not 4!Benpointer said:https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1346113547319865344?s=20
I think we were only at level 4 in March. Ergo restrictions need to be stricter than in March.0 -
A 2% increase in tests delivers a 50% increase in positive results.CarlottaVance said:Didn't quite hit the 60,000:
Fuuuuuuuuck.
Lets see shagger fuck it up tonight then. Instead of a national stay at home lockdown from midnight it will Tier 5 ramble waffle be responsible from Friday.0
