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Trump’s desperate attempt to bully the Georgia Secretary of State shows the lengths he’ll go to hang

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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,998
    edited January 2021
    What a day, Unionist haggis plus Sturgeon being criticised for not shutting down airports & the Sco-Eng border.
    2021 is gonnae be some ride!
  • algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    It's quite viable as there are surprising few border crossings.
    Only 5 or so major roads crossing from England to Scotland but 20+ minor ones.

    From memory someone on here calculated it at 31, which includes farm tracks and the like which are navigable via car albeit very remote in some cases. Not too many all in all!
    It is quite remarkable how few road connections there are across the border.
  • kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:
    IF Boris does not follow Scotland ASAP, this could be the end of his career as PM. Or the making of him. It's that big.

    Imagine Boris decides to delay. To wait two weeks or more (as some reports suggest). Imagine if, in that time, London and the SE continues to explode with cases, deaths rocket, hospitals turn away heart attack victims, the NHS totters. Imagine, in that same time, Scotland stabilises, deaths in Scotland fall, Scottish hospitals are fine.

    Can Boris survive that? Maybe not.
    But you make the point. It wouldn't be just him not surviving that. There'd be several thousand others. Which is why he will surely not prevaricate to that extent.
    The trouble is that Covid is almost perfectly configured to show up Bozza's temperamental flaws. Not just because a virus is not flattered by sunny optimism. But also his use of prevarication as a management technique.

    Action (or inaction) taken today affects the infection data in a week, hospitalisation data in a fortnight, deaths in about a month. (I think those numbers are right- if someone expert wants to correct me, please do!).

    So on the upwave, the real situation is always worse than it looks. So the only way to keep a grip on things is to over-react when things are only just beginning to turn bad.

    But Johnson's Love of Freedom and Sunak's Fear of Spending Money push them in the opposite direction, waiting until the evidence for action is overwhelming, by which time it's much too late. A lot of the bad stuff that's about to happen is already baked-in, because of decisions taken before Christmas. It's hard to manage a situation where the cause-effect loop is so slow... it's like driving a car where the steering and brakes are working loose... but I fear that the government isn't really trying.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Nicola acts.

    Bozo dithers.

    Again and again and again.

    Can we move the border to the Humber?

    ...or the English Channel?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    So do we think we will exceed the 60k cases reported today?

    Yes.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:
    IF Boris does not follow Scotland ASAP, this could be the end of his career as PM. Or the making of him. It's that big.

    Imagine Boris decides to delay. To wait two weeks or more (as some reports suggest). Imagine if, in that time, London and the SE continues to explode with cases, deaths rocket, hospitals turn away heart attack victims, the NHS totters. Imagine, in that same time, Scotland stabilises, deaths in Scotland fall, Scottish hospitals are fine.

    Can Boris survive that? Maybe not.

    What if all of the above do not happen?

    As I said: it will be the making of him. If he delays, and Tier 4 starts to work, and London and the SE avoid Apocalypse, and Scotland does no better, then he will look like a prescient hero.

    But, I fear all the evidence and data points to him being wrong. And he isn't just gambling with his career, he's gambling with all of us down here in London and the SE
    TBH, in this pandemic the public will give you zero credit for taking the more liberal approach to restrictions. Even if the Tier system works as well as Scotland more stringent measures, lots of people will still get it and die, and the call will always be you could and should have been tougher.

    Nobody will be arguing x approach was slightly better for job retention. The call will be you still allowed x,000,000 get it and x,000 die, and we could have "just" paid people furlough.

    It might be a better approach (I don't think it is, given the current situation), but you definitely won't win brownie points for it.
    I believe he would get some credit, but yes, you are more likely to be blamed than praised whatever you do (especially if you err on the side of liberty)

    What he needs to do, in terms of presentation, is get Whitty and Van Tam and the rest of the boffins in front of the cameras, explaining why England is not doing the same as Scotland. Unless, of course, all the boffins agree with Sturgeon, in which case Boris is an insane idiot playing politics with our lives.
    I am fairly certain Witty especially will be in the "lockdown yesterday" camp. Consistently over the past 9 months, he has always been in take the most cautious approach camp, and fairly clear that he didn't think most of the Tier system works.
    Regarding schools, the recent SAGE evidence about young people is pretty clear that they have been drivers of recent household infection.
    https://twitter.com/Dr2NisreenAlwan/status/1345661874302578689
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    edited January 2021
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Scotland can't close the Airports.

    The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
    Isn't this a case of do it and dare Westminster to say otherwise? It's a perfect independence wedge issue if Westminster starts banging on about devolution in the middle of a pandemic when the UK government has got the policy completely wrong for a whole year.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?
  • Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    MaxPB said:

    Gaussian said:

    MaxPB said:

    Gaussian said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Foreign travel isn't devolved. But already nonessential travel within Scotland was discouraged - now to be made formally illegal. I.e. you can't go over the border or out of the airport without breaking the law. I'm waiting to see the details (used to be crossing health board authorities' boundaries, and I do know the police were stopping and talking to people in cars in the bit of boundary near me).
    Crossing level 3/4 council boundaries without a reason on the exceptions list has been illegal for weeks.
    But the issue isn't Scottish people going to Edinburgh airport, it's flights arriving from Durban or Joburg via Schiphol.
    That's still travelling into a level 4 area. The problem is that the law isn't enforced.
    Yes, and enforcing that law is much, much more difficult to do than simply closing the airports.
    Should still be doable at the airports though (unlike on roads within Scotland). Scottish police might not have authority at the actual border inside the airport, but they do have authority at the airport doors, right? Turn away departures without a good reason, and stick arrivals without good reason into hotels until the first available flight back.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    Sovereignty is the benefit.

    Ah you say that is abstract, but so what? It will be for governments we elect to turn it into actual benefits and how it will turn into actual benefits will evolve over time depending upon which governments.


    There is no right answer apart from sovereignty. We might elect a more liberal government than the EU - or a more authoritarian one. We might elect a more socialist government - or a more dry Conservative one.

    The choice is ours. The future isn't written yet.

    The first formal divergence was the abolition of the tampon tax, which was illegal under EU law. It won't be the last one.
    Well tampon tax I will give you, but sovereignty really? I am interested in personal freedoms and I can think of a hell of a lot of things I can't do now that I could before and nothing that I can do that I couldn't before.
    Enjoying sovereignty in the abstract is the political equivalent of sitting around smelling your own farts. Making it harder for other Europeans to move here and making it harder for us to move to the EU is the principal effect of Brexit. If you think that's a net positive then that is your benefit. If not, there really is no practical benefit.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    You sure you don't want to close the borders?

    US President Donald Trump could be planning a trip to Scotland to avoid attending his successor Joe Biden’s inauguration, according to aviation sources.

    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/donald-trump-could-be-planning-turnberry-trip-as-scots-airport-told-to-expect-a-high-flyer-the-day-before-joe-bidens-inauguration/?utm_source=twitter
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,128

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
  • Well i am glad I had two food deliveries before the panic buyers, just waiting for my new gadgets for the pain cave from Brexit'ed NI...
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    Sovereignty is the benefit.

    Ah you say that is abstract, but so what? It will be for governments we elect to turn it into actual benefits and how it will turn into actual benefits will evolve over time depending upon which governments.


    There is no right answer apart from sovereignty. We might elect a more liberal government than the EU - or a more authoritarian one. We might elect a more socialist government - or a more dry Conservative one.

    The choice is ours. The future isn't written yet.

    The first formal divergence was the abolition of the tampon tax, which was illegal under EU law. It won't be the last one.
    AIUI, the abolition is now possible in the EU. I believe the Govt hung on to it to make themselves seem good.
    Nope. It is still an EU competence as it is VAT. The EU has said they have plans to allow countries to remove it by 2022 but they have not actually done so as yet.

    The only country in the EU which has a zero rate is Ireland. It always has had as it maintained the previous pre-EU exemption. As did the UK on books, food and children's clothes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    The trouble is that Covid is almost perfectly configured to show up Bozza's temperamental flaws. Not just because a virus is not flattered by sunny optimism. But also his use of prevarication as a management technique.

    Action (or inaction) taken today affects the infection data in a week, hospitalisation data in a fortnight, deaths in about a month. (I think those numbers are right- if someone expert wants to correct me, please do!).

    So on the upwave, the real situation is always worse than it looks. So the only way to keep a grip on things is to over-react when things are only just beginning to turn bad.

    But Johnson's Love of Freedom and Sunak's Fear of Spending Money push them in the opposite direction, waiting until the evidence for action is overwhelming, by which time it's much too late. A lot of the bad stuff that's about to happen is already baked-in, because of decisions taken before Christmas. It's hard to manage a situation where the cause-effect loop is so slow... it's like driving a car where the steering and brakes are working loose... but I fear that the government isn't really trying.

    BoZo is unable to think past tomorrow's headline
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706

    Boris address to the nation at 8pm tonight and Parliament recalled on Wednesday.

    He lets Sturgeon do his thinking for him?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481
    edited January 2021

    Well i am glad I had two food deliveries before the panic buyers, just waiting for my new gadgets for the pain cave from Brexit'ed NI...

    You have a um.. pain cave?? Do we want to know what the 'gadgets' are?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Well may you ask.....
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    If it is anything like the Newcastle game Boris will provide more entertainment.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,551

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    It's quite viable as there are surprising few border crossings.
    Only 5 or so major roads crossing from England to Scotland but 20+ minor ones.

    From memory someone on here calculated it at 31, which includes farm tracks and the like which are navigable via car albeit very remote in some cases. Not too many all in all!
    I made it 28 when I counted recently - counting only roads. Of course what counts as a road in north Cumbria and north Northumberland isn't quite the same as in Surrey. I recently waited 20 minutes on one of them while 84 million sheep went past on part of their long walk to the dinner table.

    And on the way to one of the minor crossings you can stop off to see the Bewcastle Cross - Cumbria's most glorious Saxon memorial and a national treasure.

  • You sure you don't want to close the borders?

    US President Donald Trump could be planning a trip to Scotland to avoid attending his successor Joe Biden’s inauguration, according to aviation sources.

    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/donald-trump-could-be-planning-turnberry-trip-as-scots-airport-told-to-expect-a-high-flyer-the-day-before-joe-bidens-inauguration/?utm_source=twitter

    Presumably his sources have told him that lockdown will prevent Janey Godley turning up with a 'Trump is a C*nt' board (plus several thousand other Trumpophobes).

    'See, Scatland now loves me!'
  • Leon said:

    Brom said:

    Leon said:

    Brom said:

    Wowser. Boris has had a brilliant couple of weeks. That's incredible polling 15 months in and after 10.5 years of a Tory government.
    But, if he f*cks up on the new lockdown - which it looks like he might, delaying for a week or two - this will collapse. He's taking an enormous gamble.
    Nah that doesn't matter much. If it comes tomorrow or Thursday who cares, no one will be able to determine the difference in the outcomes in a couple of weeks. The succesful Brexit deal gave him a boost but the speed of the vaccine rollout as the light at the end of the tunnel will be more important to VI than lockdown.
    But the rumours are that he wants to delay til "the middle of the month". Ten days? Two weeks? That really DOES matter. That's possibly 20,000 lives lost, or not.
    So? The earlier delays and the care homes policy has killed that many. People don't care because Brexit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,603
    Leon said:

    Here we go......2 days too late. Lets hope it isn't another I am announcing this evening that from a week on Thursday....
    Well at least he has managed to do it on the same day as Sturgeon, and at a better time for maximum TV news-drama. So he won't look like the usual Johnny cum lately.

    Oh God. Full lockdown in January. Grisly.
    And much of Feb I suspect.

    But we were all saying on here well before Christmas that this is what the New Year would require. And lo....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,449

    Ha I bet all you people who said Johnson would be following Sturgeon by 5pm tonight feel pretty fucking stupid now.
    lol
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,804
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.

    Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.

    The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.

    If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
    That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Ha I bet all you people who said Johnson would be following Sturgeon by 5pm tonight feel pretty fucking stupid now.
    Out by 3 hours!
  • Leon said:

    Here we go......2 days too late. Lets hope it isn't another I am announcing this evening that from a week on Thursday....
    Well at least he has managed to do it on the same day as Sturgeon, and at a better time for maximum TV news-drama. So he won't look like the usual Johnny cum lately.

    Oh God. Full lockdown in January. Grisly.
    And February...and probably March.....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,551

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Well may you ask.....
    Closing churches.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,449
    edited January 2021
    kjh:

    "That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."


    ********


    "The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"

    I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    You sure you don't want to close the borders?

    US President Donald Trump could be planning a trip to Scotland to avoid attending his successor Joe Biden’s inauguration, according to aviation sources.

    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/donald-trump-could-be-planning-turnberry-trip-as-scots-airport-told-to-expect-a-high-flyer-the-day-before-joe-bidens-inauguration/?utm_source=twitter

    Presumably his sources have told him that lockdown will prevent Janey Godley turning up with a 'Trump is a C*nt' board (plus several thousand other Trumpophobes).

    'See, Scatland now loves me!'
    Can we not declare him persona non grata - just to rub it in that he is a loser.....?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Foreign travel isn't devolved
    Hasn't stopped Guernsey. Test on arrival. Mandatory self quarantine. £10,000 fine for breaches. Test on Day 14. If you don't want to take a test, mandatory quarantine for 21 days. 8 current cases in total - all caught through "Test on arrival".

    You're not part of the UK.
    The UK government is responsible for foreign relations.

    This is a Public Health (which is devolved to Scotland) issue.
    Indeed. No reason why ScotGov can’t close the airport itself on public health grounds, or mount checkpoints on all roads out.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited January 2021

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    I`ve layed Liverpool at 1.63
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    You sure you don't want to close the borders?

    US President Donald Trump could be planning a trip to Scotland to avoid attending his successor Joe Biden’s inauguration, according to aviation sources.

    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/donald-trump-could-be-planning-turnberry-trip-as-scots-airport-told-to-expect-a-high-flyer-the-day-before-joe-bidens-inauguration/?utm_source=twitter

    What a great opportunity that would be to enforce the travel restriction law.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    You sure you don't want to close the borders?

    US President Donald Trump could be planning a trip to Scotland to avoid attending his successor Joe Biden’s inauguration, according to aviation sources.

    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/donald-trump-could-be-planning-turnberry-trip-as-scots-airport-told-to-expect-a-high-flyer-the-day-before-joe-bidens-inauguration/?utm_source=twitter

    Oh please!

    Nicola could introduce a quarantine rule while he's en route and make him stay in the Edinburgh Airport Travelodge :smiley:
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Scotland can't close the Airports.

    The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
    Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.

    So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?

    Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?
    Getting a bit logically confused there. PBTory doctrine is that Ms S won't go for an illegal referendum.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,449
    edited January 2021
    .

    And February...and probably March.....

    Someone accused me earlier of being depressed. And I - correctly - said I wasn't. Now, I dunno.....


    EDIT: I have no idea why my laptop has gone mad with its quoting. Maybe it is a secret antivaxxer

  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706

    You sure you don't want to close the borders?

    US President Donald Trump could be planning a trip to Scotland to avoid attending his successor Joe Biden’s inauguration, according to aviation sources.

    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/donald-trump-could-be-planning-turnberry-trip-as-scots-airport-told-to-expect-a-high-flyer-the-day-before-joe-bidens-inauguration/?utm_source=twitter

    Has anyone suggested closing the airports, because this seems like a very good reason.
  • kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.

    Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.

    The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.

    If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
    That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
    Yet more utter bollocks
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,804
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    kjh:

    "That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."


    ********


    "The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"

    I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez

    Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
  • Golf open or closed tomorrow in England ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited January 2021

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    "Other than"...

    From the SAGE report I quoted upthread:

    Children are more likely to bring the virus into household than aged 17+
    Young people 2-16 yrs are more than twice as likely as adults to be first case in household, and those aged 12-16 are 7x more likely.
    2-16 year olds are more than twice as likely to pass on virus in a household than adults.

    And that was just before the new, much more infectious strain started to prevail.

    And note that government had that report well before Christmas.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    edited January 2021

    So do we think we will exceed the 60k cases reported today?

    Nope - I think Monday numbers are normally lower.
    We will tomorrow.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,671
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.

    Edit - I think also said he's a pound shop Emperor Valerian, the human foot stool of the ERG.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Golf open or closed tomorrow in England ?

    Closed
  • DavidL said:

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
    The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    .

    And February...and probably March.....

    Someone accused me earlier of being depressed. And I - correctly - said I wasn't. Now, I dunno.....


    EDIT: I have no idea why my laptop has gone mad with its quoting. Maybe it is a secret antivaxxer

    There's that bogus stat that the 4th Monday in January or thereabouts is the most depressing day of the year. Even in a normal year.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Eagles, you mean he's playing the role of Julius Caesar at the court of the king of Bithynia?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Foreign travel isn't devolved
    Hasn't stopped Guernsey. Test on arrival. Mandatory self quarantine. £10,000 fine for breaches. Test on Day 14. If you don't want to take a test, mandatory quarantine for 21 days. 8 current cases in total - all caught through "Test on arrival".

    You're not part of the UK.
    The UK government is responsible for foreign relations.

    This is a Public Health (which is devolved to Scotland) issue.
    Doesn't make Guernsey any more relevant, especially if you have for years been lecturing us Scots on the benefits of remaining in the UK and sending almost all our tax to Westminster while living in a tax haven.

    But the issue needs to be resolved. Though it's not so long since PBTories siuch as you would have erupted at the vcery idea of the Scottish Gmt closing the airports. And, in any case, some travel is necessary - so we will see. More details are to come anyway.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    It's quite viable as there are surprising few border crossings.
    Only 5 or so major roads crossing from England to Scotland but 20+ minor ones.

    From memory someone on here calculated it at 31, which includes farm tracks and the like which are navigable via car albeit very remote in some cases. Not too many all in all!
    It is quite remarkable how few road connections there are across the border.
    It probably reflects that either side of the border was not a particularly safe place to live for a very long time so there are comparatively few towns to generate the connections.

    The 60 miles or so from Haddington to Berwick has some nice coastline but its astonishingly empty and the area to the north of Carlisle even more so.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,551
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.

    Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.

    The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.

    If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
    That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
    " I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.



  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    DavidL said:

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
    The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?
    Mixing outside in the playground is way less of a risk than sitting all day in a stuffy classroom.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Stocky said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    I`ve layed Liverpool at 1.63
    Liverpool are very short, they could not beat West Brom who have conceded 9 goals in their next 2 games
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,449
    edited January 2021
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh:

    "That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."


    ********


    "The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"

    I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez

    Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?
    The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.

    No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    The same town where 75 people out from just 1 supermarket and our last R rate was something like 1.68
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,804

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.

    Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.

    The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.

    If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
    That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
    Yet more utter bollocks
    What in particular?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Foreign travel isn't devolved
    Hasn't stopped Guernsey. Test on arrival. Mandatory self quarantine. £10,000 fine for breaches. Test on Day 14. If you don't want to take a test, mandatory quarantine for 21 days. 8 current cases in total - all caught through "Test on arrival".

    You're not part of the UK.
    The UK government is responsible for foreign relations.

    This is a Public Health (which is devolved to Scotland) issue.
    Indeed. No reason why ScotGov can’t close the airport itself on public health grounds, or mount checkpoints on all roads out.
    Or require negative PCR test before leaving the airport.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,223
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:
    IF Boris does not follow Scotland ASAP, this could be the end of his career as PM. Or the making of him. It's that big.

    Imagine Boris decides to delay. To wait two weeks or more (as some reports suggest). Imagine if, in that time, London and the SE continues to explode with cases, deaths rocket, hospitals turn away heart attack victims, the NHS totters. Imagine, in that same time, Scotland stabilises, deaths in Scotland fall, Scottish hospitals are fine.

    Can Boris survive that? Maybe not.
    But you make the point. It wouldn't be just him not surviving that. There'd be several thousand others. Which is why he will surely not prevaricate to that extent.
    So if he's not going to prevaricate and he is going to do it, Just Bloody Do It Now. What possible gain is there in waiting an extra hour, let alone a few days?

    It is totally mystifying.
    But no longer. He's doing it. Strict national measures for a few weeks at least.

    I don't quite get the aversion to looking organized and proactive but I guess he has his reasons.
  • Essex people for you.
  • kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    Sovereignty is the benefit.

    Ah you say that is abstract, but so what? It will be for governments we elect to turn it into actual benefits and how it will turn into actual benefits will evolve over time depending upon which governments.


    There is no right answer apart from sovereignty. We might elect a more liberal government than the EU - or a more authoritarian one. We might elect a more socialist government - or a more dry Conservative one.

    The choice is ours. The future isn't written yet.

    The first formal divergence was the abolition of the tampon tax, which was illegal under EU law. It won't be the last one.
    Well tampon tax I will give you, but sovereignty really? I am interested in personal freedoms and I can think of a hell of a lot of things I can't do now that I could before and nothing that I can do that I couldn't before.
    Then elect a government that will be more liberal. It is what I will always campaign for.
  • kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.
    Putting on a mask was the give away (©Paul Joseph Watson)
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.

    Edit - I think also said he a pound shop Emperor Valerian, the human foot stool of the ERG.
    Was that before or after he became Prime Minister?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    One thing I hadn't realized is how much better Scotland has done at a macro level at keeping down corona cases.

    Unless I'm reading it wrong - they reckon only 2.46% confirmed cases vs. >4% in the other nations (almost 5% in Wales). Presumably that isn't just down to testing levels being different?

    Yet their death numbers are not that much lower (possibly due to care home mistakes?)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.

    Edit - I think also said he a pound shop Emperor Valerian, the human foot stool of the ERG.
    I expect Boris has forgiven you, expect an appointment next month for you to be Boris' personal envoy for promoting the Union to Glasgow
  • DavidL said:

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
    The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?
    Mixing outside in the playground is way less of a risk than sitting all day in a stuffy classroom.
    I agree but the sorts of kids who will generally be playing in a play ground are probably not the ones who will pay much attention to social distancing. Anyone who has seen under 5s - or even under 10s playing in a playground will know this.

    I am not generally critical of Sturgeon and think she has done the right thing here overall. It just seems a strange exception.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    The other admirable thing about Sturgeon's briefing was giving an indication of the expected vaccine roll-out.

    I have been heavily critical of Sturgeon's various Covid actions but you can never fault her communication and clarity.
  • DavidL said:

    So do we think we will exceed the 60k cases reported today?

    Yes.
    Maybe not, fingers crossed. There's not a strong weekend effect for cases (as opposed to deaths), and there is the slim hope that the closure of the schools for the Christmas holidays may have helped to have offset family mixing. On the other hand, there seems to be no stopping the new variant :/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,884
    DavidL said:

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
    Indeed. The Scottish situation has chopped and changed much less than in England - for one thing we had a decent nmumber of levels to begin with unlike down south, though PBTories criticised that virulently as I recall.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    Sovereignty is the benefit.

    Ah you say that is abstract, but so what? It will be for governments we elect to turn it into actual benefits and how it will turn into actual benefits will evolve over time depending upon which governments.


    There is no right answer apart from sovereignty. We might elect a more liberal government than the EU - or a more authoritarian one. We might elect a more socialist government - or a more dry Conservative one.

    The choice is ours. The future isn't written yet.

    The first formal divergence was the abolition of the tampon tax, which was illegal under EU law. It won't be the last one.
    Well tampon tax I will give you, but sovereignty really? I am interested in personal freedoms and I can think of a hell of a lot of things I can't do now that I could before and nothing that I can do that I couldn't before.
    Then elect a government that will be more liberal. It is what I will always campaign for.
    How would electing a more liberal UK government restore my freedom of movement rights in the EU? That is the kind of freedom that is only obtained by pooling sovereignty beyond national borders.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh:

    "That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things."


    ********


    "The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed"

    I mean, listen to yourself. Jeez

    Maybe it would be useful if you actually stated what was inaccurate in that statement. Do you think the USA is not a democracy? It has an appointed executive?
    The Americans just kicked out President Trump. Thank F*ck. Because he's an awful president.

    No European citizen will ever get the chance to throw out President von der Leyen. Or Charles Michel. Or any of the other four EU presidents. Or is it five? Ten? It is so easy to forget.
    To be fair the Commission President is now supposed to come from the party with the largest number of elected MEPs in the European Parliament
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Here are my predictions for the Johnson press conference:

    1. Ridiculously ruffled hair.
    2. Schoolboy smirk.
    3. 'Comedy' analogy.
    4. Total failure to convince.
  • kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.

    Edit - I think also said he a pound shop Emperor Valerian, the human foot stool of the ERG.
    Was that before or after he became Prime Minister?
    First one was before he became PM, the second afterwards.
  • Alistair said:

    There we go, Nicolas statement finished. In about 3 shambolic days that will be the England plan.

    Why? Has she closed the border.

    If not it should not be the plan.

    Close the effing border Boris. Then it is your own plan. Listen to Hunt.

    (I feel absolutely awful saying close the border)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,481

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Foreign travel isn't devolved
    Hasn't stopped Guernsey. Test on arrival. Mandatory self quarantine. £10,000 fine for breaches. Test on Day 14. If you don't want to take a test, mandatory quarantine for 21 days. 8 current cases in total - all caught through "Test on arrival".

    You're not part of the UK.
    The UK government is responsible for foreign relations.

    This is a Public Health (which is devolved to Scotland) issue.
    Indeed. No reason why ScotGov can’t close the airport itself on public health grounds, or mount checkpoints on all roads out.
    Or require negative PCR test before leaving the airport.
    Or implement mandatory quarantine. It seems on this one, the four Governments are very much in step.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
    The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?
    Kids up to 11 only. My son, 17, has previously been exempt from many of the restrictions which has allowed him to meet up with school friends and his girlfriend but no longer. But the evidence that even young kids can spread at least the new variant does seem to be growing stronger.

    In March most of the playgrounds were locked up in practice as the staff were "working from home". I suspect it will be the same again.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425

    DavidL said:

    Other than closing schools what is the difference between what NS has just annouced for Scotland compared to Tier 4 in England?

    Its depressingly hard to work out but in Scotland the religious exemption is gone. Travel for education is no longer possible, nor training. It's mainly schools tbh.

    One thing that we must learn from this disaster is that attempts by politicians to fine tune restrictions and frequent changes of rules is hugely and completely counter-productive resulting in far less compliance and effectiveness. One can see the attraction, especially from the Treasury, but it is just not worth it.
    The strange one about Scotland is kids are still able to mix in playgrounds outside of school. If kids are now being considered a primary route of transmission between families surely this is a rather dangerous loophole?
    It's outdoors. Not so long close to the same people as when sat in a classroom.
  • algarkirk said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    "Danish firm DFDS launch new direct cargo service between Ireland & France to bypass the UK. The first ship today carried over 100 trucks & the service is already over-subscribed. Hauliers say the route is longer but avoids Brexit red-tape they would otherwise experience on the UK route."

    Suppose it will keep the queues down!

    Keeps the traffic down on UK roads. No issue with that.
    Well absolutely. I think I made that point, but doesn't it just maybe make you think 'well maybe it has cost and competitive issues for UK companies exporting and UK customers of EU products if Irish hauliers prefer a mega sea journey.
    Marginally, so be it. We already have marginal cost issues by using a different currency but the benefits outweigh the costs.

    Plus of course the Irish potentially need to do the paperwork twice, whereas the Brits only need to do it once.
    I agree with all of your reply Philip except one. What are these benefits? I mean actual benefits not abstract ones Iike sovereignty. I can list a whole lot of benefits I have personally lost. I can not think of a single benefit I have gained.
    You can now throw out (or elect), via the ballot box, all the people who make the crucial political decisions that govern your life.

    Take the Covid vaccine. The UK government is entirely responsible for buying, distributing and injecting this stuff into our arms. If they fuck it up, vote them out. If they do well, re-elect them, should you so wish.

    The EU however, via the Commission, decided to do an EU-wide scheme, launched on the same day, which some have found seriously flawed and laborious.

    If you're an EU citizen angry about this, how do you democratically punish those responsible? You can't.
    That is just utter nonsense. Firstly like many I have no control over who I elect and I did have a vote for the European parliament. The only difference between us and the EU was that our executive comes (largely but not exclusively eg Lords) from an elected parliament rather than being appointed. However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA, London Mayor) and monitored by the elected representatives. These are just different types of democracies and it is debatable that ours is superior. I think many would argue it is inferior at it nearly always results in what many call an elected dictatorship with conflicted roles between the executive and those elected to pass laws and monitor the executive. Our Parliament for the most part (except when hung) is pretty powerless.

    So I have no power whatsoever to get rid of a Govt, but I have lost the right to do many things. Actual tangible things.
    " I have no control over who I elect" is not a great argument. The rest of the arguments aren't much better.



    Also "However in many democracies the executive is appointed (eg USA."

    Executive power in the USA is vested in the President. I believe they just had an election of some sort for him.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Bozo has to wait until after bathtime and a Noddy book before addressing the nation.

    Meanwhile Nut Nuts is taking care of the baby.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Tbh, even Nicola is failing the border test. Why hasn't Scotland closed its airports and opened checkpoints into Scotland from England with rapid testing stations. Something like that would be perfectly reasonable at this time. It might even shock Westminster into acting, keeping the border with Scotland open is far more important than keeping the border open with RoW. The UK should be an impenetrable fortress at this point a year after we first realised this was going to be awful.

    Scotland can't close the Airports.

    The restrictions make it illegal to travel to the airport but she can't stop the planes. That's a UK competence.
    Ah a bit like independence referenda are the competence of the UK government.

    So why is Sturgeon likely to do one and not the other?

    Is it she cares more about independence than Covid-19?
    Getting a bit logically confused there. PBTory doctrine is that Ms S won't go for an illegal referendum.
    Do you disagree? Genuinely interested.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.

    Edit - I think also said he a pound shop Emperor Valerian, the human foot stool of the ERG.
    I expect Boris has forgiven you, expect an appointment next month for you to be Boris' personal envoy for promoting the Union to Glasgow
    Alternatively, just make a big donation to the Conservative party and get a large contract and/or peerage in return.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.
    At least there will be a better chance they will still have parents and grandparents tomorrow.
    there's already a 99.5% chance though, right?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    More Boris Bullshit.....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55522329
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.
    Did you really enjoy school that much?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Scott_xP said:
    What Jane really wants is Kamps and barbed wire.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is it 8pm tonight or 8pm Weds after the recall of Parliament?
    Tonight, clashes with the Southampton v. Liverpool match.
    Boris hates you, perhaps?
    Has done for a while.

    I think he got upset when I told him he 'had become a political catamite of the Brexit right'.

    Edit - I think also said he a pound shop Emperor Valerian, the human foot stool of the ERG.
    I expect Boris has forgiven you, expect an appointment next month for you to be Boris' personal envoy for promoting the Union to Glasgow
    Alternatively, just make a big donation to the Conservative party and get a large contract and/or peerage in return.
    Doing an "independent" inquiry works too
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    I feel desperately sorry for the children of today.
    Did you really enjoy school that much?
    It's a good point. Covid excepted, they all seem to have a much better time at school than the misery and boredom I went through.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    Leon said:

    Here we go......2 days too late. Lets hope it isn't another I am announcing this evening that from a week on Thursday....
    Well at least he has managed to do it on the same day as Sturgeon, and at a better time for maximum TV news-drama. So he won't look like the usual Johnny cum lately.

    Oh God. Full lockdown in January. Grisly.
    And much of Feb I suspect.

    But we were all saying on here well before Christmas that this is what the New Year would require. And lo....
    It was really obvious as soon as it became clear how much more infectious the new variant was. The lack of obvious preparation since that time (roughly mid December) seems pretty suboptimal.
This discussion has been closed.