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Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!0 -
That depends on how you define 'working class'.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
I can name you some skilled manual workers from poor backgrounds and with little education who earn millions.0 -
Looking good at the moment but we gave a goal lead away at Newcastle so they need to keep it up.dixiedean said:Either Everton have suddenly become Brazil in 1970, or West Ham are very, very dire.
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Anyone who sells their labour for salary or wages, and doesn’t own their business, is working class according to Karl Marx, who defined the proletariat as those who sell their labour power and who do not own the means of production. So there.TheScreamingEagles said:
Cannot imagine anyone on PB passing themselves as working class in that situation.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
It is an interesting situation.
My friend Rob his family is very working class, grew up in a council house, went to a comprehensive. He did a maths degree at a former poly.
To cut a long story short, he now earns a six figure salary and still considers himself working class.
We've occasionally discussed has he ceased to be a member of the working class?0 -
Nearly evening all
Summer, summer, summer time, summer time (as someone once said) as of tomorrow so an hour's less kip and the horror of summer in the city draws ever nearer.
So, I'm confused again - how is the Prime Minister to bring back the WA to the Commons on Monday when Bercow has already made it clear he wouldn't allow a vote on the same motion again?
Putting that to one side because presumably that's what Government lawyers are paid for, the truth is NO option has yet achieved a majority in the Commons. I can well understand the EU's frustration, they know what we don't want but they don't know what we do want because we don't either.
I imagine the Conservatives will whip strongly against any attempt to introduce a permanent Customs Union and the forces against the WA seem as strong as ever if not perhaps further emboldened by yesterday's events. A threat of a GE is so much hot air - Corbyn may want it but I suspect many Conservative and Labour MPs don't at this time.
I wasn't able (as I have other things to do on a Saturday) to complement David Herdson on a fine earlier piece with which, for a change, I mostly agreed, I did like the Titanic analogy which sums up the Parliamentary nonsense very well.
The question is now where the EU is on a long extension - how long first for all and second will they even grant it at all? I can well understand their reluctance to not have elected British MEPs in the Parliament. Had a Scotland heading for independence sent MPs to Westminster in 2015 and had those, under only slightly different circumstances, have blocked Cameron from forming a Government, I imagine the reaction in parts of England and Wales wouldn't have been uniformly positive.0 -
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't but we've been told similar anecdotes for the last 33 months.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!0 -
Parris is an empty vessel making a lot of noise in a paper that favours Remain. I referred to “actions” specifically to Grieve.Chris said:
Oh dear. What dark consequences are being hinted at for Parris?AmpfieldAndy said:
It’s all invective and no substance. He writes like a petulant child, rather like Grieve is behaving. Actions have consequences as Grieve is now discovering.kinabalu said:Just finished the Times. There's a lacerating critique of Brexit and the Brexiteers from Matthew Parris. Thoroughly recommended. It's like Meaks on steroids!
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I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year0 -
I asked this question earlier, I was a member of UKIP but am not now. If I rejoined to vote against the likes of Tommy Robinson, would that be wrong? Or would it be ok because I hadn't joined another party in the meantime?TheScreamingEagles said:
For me it the big issue is that like with a lot of Labour agitators, Mr Grieve's ouster is someone who quite recently was in another party with the express mission of trying to destroy the Tory party.tlg86 said:
Not that I have a dog in either of those fights, but I wouldn't call either worrying for democracy.TheScreamingEagles said:
Love the hypocrisy.CarlottaVance said:
When entryists in Labour try and oust Labour MPs that's worrying for democracy, when it happens to a Tory MP it is great for democracy.
That does not sit well with me.0 -
All that is true and yet irrelevant. The vote has happened, it went against her, for whatever reason, and it's an important principle that we should now move on.brendan16 said:
Almost all the other options on offer on Wednesday required her deal to pass - as they are about future arrangements not withdrawal.OblitusSumMe said:
She lost and should admit it and move on to an alternative, which if she is determined to pass the withdrawal agreement would be either a general election or a referendum.Stark_Dawning said:
Get them to vote again and again until she gets the result she wants. I thought that was only a dastardly EU trick.brendan16 said:I see Mrs May is planning to bring her deal back again next week for another vote.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122
230 to 149 to 58 - she is getting closer every time....
This is exactly the sort of coercive situation that the convention that a defeated measure is not brought back to the House in the same session is intended to protect Parliament from. One hopes that the Speaker will stand firm.
Which is of course why its all politics and posturing. If we don't leave on an agreed exit deal why would we need to enter in a customs union with the EU - as we are in the Customs union anyway.
Nothing would have changed until December 2021 under her deal - bar losing voting rights and MEPs. Parliament would then have had 21 months to agree the future options.0 -
Best half this season. Actually for many a year. Where has this come from? Could have been five.AmpfieldAndy said:
Looking good at the moment but we gave a goal lead away at Newcastle so they need to keep it up.dixiedean said:Either Everton have suddenly become Brazil in 1970, or West Ham are very, very dire.
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The small snag is the only other option is no deal - which was rejected by an even larger margin.OblitusSumMe said:
All that is true and yet irrelevant. The vote has happened, it went against her, for whatever reason, and it's an important principle that we should now move on.brendan16 said:
Almost all the other options on offer on Wednesday required her deal to pass - as they are about future arrangements not withdrawal.OblitusSumMe said:
She lost and should admit it and move on to an alternative, which if she is determined to pass the withdrawal agreement would be either a general election or a referendum.Stark_Dawning said:
Get them to vote again and again until she gets the result she wants. I thought that was only a dastardly EU trick.brendan16 said:I see Mrs May is planning to bring her deal back again next week for another vote.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122
230 to 149 to 58 - she is getting closer every time....
This is exactly the sort of coercive situation that the convention that a defeated measure is not brought back to the House in the same session is intended to protect Parliament from. One hopes that the Speaker will stand firm.
Which is of course why its all politics and posturing. If we don't leave on an agreed exit deal why would we need to enter in a customs union with the EU - as we are in the Customs union anyway.
Nothing would have changed until December 2021 under her deal - bar losing voting rights and MEPs. Parliament would then have had 21 months to agree the future options.0 -
Yes, I was just trying to wind up TSE. To be fair, it is very complicated. I'm on c.35k in London, but I only do it because I live with my parents and can commute by train. If that wasn't an option I wouldn't have anything to do with London.brendan16 said:tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
A person earning £60k would struggle to buy one bed flat in much of London - they couldn't even afford to buy a house in Dagenham. Earn £60k and live in Northumberland and perhaps its a different ballgame.
Wealth matters now - not income - given the insane price of housing in much of the UK.
As Rachel Reeves observed "The hardest way to make money in this country is to go to work."
Someone on £60k a year aged 30 who rents a flat is not as well off as someone on £30k aged 45 who owns a £2 million house - its all about timing, age, location and luck.
So yes a person on £60k in London who can't afford to buy a one bed flat in their area - probably is working class!0 -
Well, you spoke about Parris, compared him to Grieve, and then said "Actions have consequences as Grieve is now discovering."AmpfieldAndy said:
Parris is an empty vessel making a lot of noise in a paper that favours Remain. I referred to “actions” specifically to Grieve.Chris said:
Oh dear. What dark consequences are being hinted at for Parris?AmpfieldAndy said:
It’s all invective and no substance. He writes like a petulant child, rather like Grieve is behaving. Actions have consequences as Grieve is now discovering.kinabalu said:Just finished the Times. There's a lacerating critique of Brexit and the Brexiteers from Matthew Parris. Thoroughly recommended. It's like Meaks on steroids!
Maybe just more noise from an empty vessel, though.0 -
May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html0 -
Yes, I agree with all of this. It's quite difficult to measure class in my opinion because, as you say, it's defined by your parents.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year0 -
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Fieldwork was before TIG became a registered party.Chris said:0 -
Should have been 5 but as long as they win I am not sure I care too much. Presume the Chelsea result has given them a big lift and rightly so. Just got to do the same in the second half. It was a decent start to the season but it all went pear shaped after throwing the game away at Anfield in the last minute.dixiedean said:
Best half this season. Actually for many a year. Where has this come from? Could have been five.AmpfieldAndy said:
Looking good at the moment but we gave a goal lead away at Newcastle so they need to keep it up.dixiedean said:Either Everton have suddenly become Brazil in 1970, or West Ham are very, very dire.
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C'mon. Don't be churlish. Parris is a top class writer. You don't need to agree with him to appreciate that.AmpfieldAndy said:It’s all invective and no substance. He writes like a petulant child, rather like Grieve is behaving. Actions have consequences as Grieve is now discovering.
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Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
And my girlfriend who goes to a different school so you won't know her says the opposite.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!0 -
Well spotted. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't pointed it out.kjh said:
Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Yes of course people do, but they may not be correct. A cleaner might feel that low wage competition from Europe is depressing her wages, for instance, but not take into account the demand for her services created by the high wage jobs in London's service industries that EU membership facilitates, that is pushing in the other direction.brendan16 said:
But of course people generally vote on their 'anecdotal' experiences in the real world - not on some academic or ONS statistics based on recorded data (not all reality is recorded!).
If you are immune from the effects of something you are far less likely to see something as being an issue or a problem.
A bit like 'right on' people who choose to live in the most white middle class British parts of London - Twickenham or Barnes say - and then lecture others on 'celebrating diversity'. If they truly did - why don't they buy a bigger house in more diverse parts of London such as Newham or Croydon where their money would go much further?
My point is that none of us are immune from the effects of being in the EU. Many EU citizens do my job, so presumably they could be reducing my wage. But I suspect on balance I benefit economically from EU membership. Although that's not why I support it (in the same way I support Labour even though I would be worse off financially if they won). I suspect that the suspicion that EU immigrants are reducing your wage is not highly correlated with whether that has actually happened. But it is the suspicion that counts unfortunately.
Incidentally, do 'right on' people live in Barnes and Twickenham? I thought places like that were stuffed full of smug Tories in rugby shirts. Personally I live in a fairly diverse and less affluent area of SE London. As you observe, you get more for your money, and also I suspect that if an area is too posh the state schools are less good because the upper middle class families all go private. Plus I don't want to be surrounded exclusively by white people.0 -
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.0 -
Only spotted it because I got confused. Started to think I might need to book my place in the home for the permanently bewildered.Recidivist said:
Well spotted. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't pointed it out.kjh said:
Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Those areas are generally more Tory than twenty years ago, due to shifts in house prices. The Lib Dem party in the Richmond and Twickenham area was far bigger a couple of years ago, for instance. The children of the media intelligentsia who used to populate them have moved to places like Sydenham, Herne Hill and East Dulwich in South London, in my experience.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Yes of course people do, but they may not be correct. A cleaner might feel that low wage competition from Europe is depressing her wages, for instance, but not take into account the demand for her services created by the high wage jobs in London's service industries that EU membership facilitates, that is pushing in the other direction.brendan16 said:
But of course people generally vote on their 'anecdotal' experiences in the real world - not on some academic or ONS statistics based on recorded data (not all reality is recorded!).
If you are immune from the effects of something you are far less likely to see something as being an issue or a problem.
A bit like 'right on' people who choose to live in the most white middle class British parts of London - Twickenham or Barnes say - and then lecture others on 'celebrating diversity'. If they truly did - why don't they buy a bigger house in more diverse parts of London such as Newham or Croydon where their money would go much further?
My point is that none of us are immune from the effects of being in the EU. Many EU citizens do my job, so presumably they could be reducing my wage. But I suspect on balance I benefit economically from EU membership. Although that's not why I support it (in the same way I support Labour even though I would be worse off financially if they won). I suspect that the suspicion that EU immigrants are reducing your wage is not highly correlated with whether that has actually happened. But it is the suspicion that counts unfortunately.
Incidentally, do 'right on' people live in Barnes and Twickenham? I thought places like that were stuffed full of smug Tories in rugby shirts. Personally I live in a fairly diverse and less affluent area of SE London. As you observe, you get more for your money, and also I suspect that if an area is too posh the state schools are less good because the upper middle class families all go private. Plus I don't want to be surrounded exclusively by white people.0 -
We’ll have to agree to disagree. He is a bigoted, bitter and twisted man in my view. How Remainers have the audacity to call Leavers bigoted when Parris writes tripe like his article today is beyond me.kinabalu said:
C'mon. Don't be churlish. Parris is a top class writer. You don't need to agree with him to appreciate that.AmpfieldAndy said:It’s all invective and no substance. He writes like a petulant child, rather like Grieve is behaving. Actions have consequences as Grieve is now discovering.
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Well done for spotting that apples are *exactly* the same thing as oranges. It's a point which escapes a lot of people.MarqueeMark said:
Just 10m short of those who actually voted to Remain........Ishmael_Z said:5,992,000 ish signatures on the revoke petition. Will be comfortably over 6m on Monday when it's debated.
Perhaps they've all died?0 -
:-)MarqueeMark said:
If you can't beat 'em....leave 'em!Stark_Dawning said:
Get them to vote again and again until she gets the result she wants. I thought that was only a dastardly EU trick.brendan16 said:I see Mrs May is planning to bring her deal back again next week for another vote.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122
230 to 149 to 58 - she is getting closer every time....0 -
Snow clearly missed the People's Vote march...
https://tinyurl.com/y2czbknr
Channel 4 News has apologised after its presenter Jon Snow said he had “never seen so many white people in one place”, referring to the pro-Brexit protesters who flooded the centre of London on Friday.0 -
I'm confused. Has he been deselected? I thought it was a no confidence motion, which is different.WhisperingOracle said:This is exactly the sort of reaction I've sniffed from some of the reactions of less prominent Tories to Grieve today. Brexiters should beware of dismissing these future predictions just because they seem to come mainly from Remainers ; Remainers can still make a split happen.
http://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/11119011683541196810 -
DittoFloater said:
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.0 -
If either party had a leader who wasn’t a total waste of space, that party would have massive lead. If May doesn’t try and call another snap election, there is a lot resting on who succeeds her.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Who are the morons who haven't figured out Boris yet?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
On a more important note than Brexit - How do you stop pheasants eating your grass seed? I don't own a shot gun and chasing them around the garden is pointless; we just go around in circles. They don't even have the decency to fly away.0
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George Osborne is right about this. The moderate centre right has done well over a long time by not splitting, and by that ground not being contested by a lot of parties. Increasingly the LDs are not inhabiting centre right territory - and they hit a big problem the last time they did, in 2010. Millions of moderates will be less sympathetic to the Tories if it either stops being a place of intelligent dialogue (Clarke, Grieve, Cox, JRM, Stewart, Spelman to name a few) or starts being open to loud mothed extremes.WhisperingOracle said:This is exactly the sort of reaction I've sniffed from some of the reactions of less prominent Tories to Grieve today. Brexiters should beware of dismissing these future predictions just because they seem to come mainly from Remainers ; Remainers can still make a split happen.
http://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/11119011683541196810 -
Who are the morons who haven't figured out that in this dark age of anti-politics, Boris still represents sticking two fingers up to the political Establishment?Casino_Royale said:
Who are the morons who haven't figured out Boris yet?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
It might depend on the wording/question order*, this was the polling of the week for me.Casino_Royale said:
Who are the morons who haven't figured out Boris yet?TheScreamingEagles said:
This is of Tory voters.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/1111555698918330370
*I'm not questioning Opinium's motives or methodology but sometimes the question order has a minor impact on wording.0 -
Most of these who would make the best leader/PM polls are name recognition and little more IMO...Casino_Royale said:
Who are the morons who haven't figured out Boris yet?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
If you have to get out of bed in the morning to pay your bills, you are working classFloater said:
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.0 -
Ha ha, none of them a million miles from where we live. Although I am not sure I know any of the "children of the media intelligencia". I obviously don't go to the right dinner parties! Although perhaps we might share a cheap Bulgarian cleaner or our children may go to the same interpretive dance class.WhisperingOracle said:
Those areas are generally more Tory than twenty years ago, due to shifts in house prices. The Lib Dem party in the Richmond and Twickenham area was far bigger a couple of years ago, for instance. The children of the media intelligentsia who used to populate them have moved to places like Sydenham, Herne Hill and East Dulwich in South London, in my experience.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Yes of course people do, but they may not be correct. A cleaner might feel that low wage competition from Europe is depressing her wages, for instance, but not take into account the demand for her services created by the high wage jobs in London's service industries that EU membership facilitates, that is pushing in the other direction.brendan16 said:
But of course people generally vote on their 'anecdotal' experiences in the real world - not on some academic or ONS statistics based on recorded data (not all reality is recorded!).
If you are immune from the effects of something you are far less likely to see something as being an issue or a problem.
A bit like 'right on' people who choose to live in the most white middle class British parts of London - Twickenham or Barnes say - and then lecture others on 'celebrating diversity'. If they truly did - why don't they buy a bigger house in more diverse parts of London such as Newham or Croydon where their money would go much further?
My point is that none of us are immune from the effects of being in the EU. Many EU citizens do my job, so presumably they could be reducing my wage. But I suspect on balance I benefit economically from EU membership. Although that's not why I support it (in the same way I support Labour even though I would be worse off financially if they won). I suspect that the suspicion that EU immigrants are reducing your wage is not highly correlated with whether that has actually happened. But it is the suspicion that counts unfortunately.
Incidentally, do 'right on' people live in Barnes and Twickenham? I thought places like that were stuffed full of smug Tories in rugby shirts. Personally I live in a fairly diverse and less affluent area of SE London. As you observe, you get more for your money, and also I suspect that if an area is too posh the state schools are less good because the upper middle class families all go private. Plus I don't want to be surrounded exclusively by white people.0 -
Wonder if we're going to have more Saturday night madness from the Tory Party?
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The "small" Lib Dem Party was still able to thrash the Conservatives in Richmond and KIngston last year.WhisperingOracle said:
Those areas are generally more Tory than twenty years ago, due to shifts in house prices. The Lib Dem party in the Richmond and Twickenham area was far bigger a couple of years ago, for instance. The children of the media intelligentsia who used to populate them have moved to places like Sydenham, Herne Hill and East Dulwich in South London, in my experience.
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I'm expecting it tonight from the No Deal wing.GIN1138 said:Wonder if we're going to have more Saturday night madness from the Tory Party?
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Well for every anecdote, there is another in the opposite direction.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!
My mother was visiting me this weekend, she is a retired teacher, LD voter but not particularly politically active. Voted Remain in 2016. She says she worries for faith in democracy if, having asked the people their opinion, the politicians then fail to implement their decision. She wants to see Brexit happen and then time can judge whether returning to the EU is a good idea or not. She understands how much changed between what was voted on in 1975 and what the EU became 40 years later after Lisbon.0 -
There are two counteracting trends, identified by polling. There are Remain voters who think the result should be respected and would view vote Leave, and there are Leave voters who realise what a mess Brexit will be and would now vote Remain. The number in the second category is increasing, while those in the first appear to be static or decreasing. Such that on current polling, Remain would win a second referendum.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!
Tellingly, there are increasing numbers who voted Leave and now pretend they didn't.0 -
Even the lefties at Channel 4 must be starting to get pissed off with Snow saying stupid things...tlg86 said:Snow clearly missed the People's Vote march...
https://tinyurl.com/y2czbknr
Channel 4 News has apologised after its presenter Jon Snow said he had “never seen so many white people in one place”, referring to the pro-Brexit protesters who flooded the centre of London on Friday.0 -
True, which I think is a measure of the anger over Europe. Even with a much more affluent population, that will still be enough to get Goldsmith out next time, too, I think.stodge said:
The "small" Lib Dem Party was still able to thrash the Conservatives in Richmond and KIngston last year.WhisperingOracle said:
Those areas are generally more Tory than twenty years ago, due to shifts in house prices. The Lib Dem party in the Richmond and Twickenham area was far bigger a couple of years ago, for instance. The children of the media intelligentsia who used to populate them have moved to places like Sydenham, Herne Hill and East Dulwich in South London, in my experience.
;.)OnlyLivingBoy said:
Ha ha, none of them a million miles from where we live. Although I am not sure I know any of the "children of the media intelligencia". I obviously don't go to the right dinner parties! Although perhaps we might share a cheap Bulgarian cleaner or our children may go to the same interpretive dance class.WhisperingOracle said:
Those areas are generally more Tory than twenty years ago, due to shifts in house prices. The Lib Dem party in the Richmond and Twickenham area was far bigger a couple of years ago, for instance. The children of the media intelligentsia who used to populate them have moved to places like Sydenham, Herne Hill and East Dulwich in South London, in my experience.OnlyLivingBoy said:brendan16 said:
But of course people generally vote on their 'anecdotal' experiences in the real world - not on some academic or ONS statistics based on recorded data (not all reality is recorded!).
If you are immune from the effects of something you are far less likely to see something as being an issue or a problem.
A bit like 'right on' people who choose to live in the most white middle class British parts of London - Twickenham or Barnes say - and then lecture others on 'celebrating diversity'. If they truly did - why don't they buy a bigger house in more diverse parts of London such as Newham or Croydon where their money would go much further?
Incidentally, do 'right on' people live in Barnes and Twickenham? I thought places like that were stuffed full of smug Tories in rugby shirts. Personally I live in a fairly diverse and less affluent area of SE London. As you observe, you get more for your money, and also I suspect that if an area is too posh the state schools are less good because the upper middle class families all go private. Plus I don't want to be surrounded exclusively by white people.0 -
I think at one time Opinium did include them in the voting intention question, though.TheScreamingEagles said:
Fieldwork was before TIG became a registered party.Chris said:0 -
OK, now I'm so puzzled I'll look like a fool. What's the mistake?kjh said:
Only spotted it because I got confused. Started to think I might need to book my place in the home for the permanently bewildered.Recidivist said:
Well spotted. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't pointed it out.kjh said:
Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Also telling that Leavers seem to be changing their mind on the substance of Brexit, whereas Remainers have switched for procedural grounds, ie to respect the result of the democratic vote, not because they now think Brexit is a good thing per se.FF43 said:
There are two counteracting trends, identified by polling. There are Remain voters who think the result should be respected and would view vote Leave, and there are Leave voters who realise what a mess Brexit will be and would now vote Remain. The number in the second category is increasing, while those in the first appear to be static or decreasing. Such that on current polling, Remain would win a second referendum.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!
Tellingly, there are increasing numbers who voted Leave and now pretend they didn't.0 -
That was to see their potential alongside a normal VI poll without them in.Chris said:
I think at one time Opinium did include them in the voting intention question, though.TheScreamingEagles said:
Fieldwork was before TIG became a registered party.Chris said:
They and a few other pollsters decided not to include TIG until they became a registered party.0 -
Lib Dems are listed as minus 2 when they should be plus 2.ydoethur said:
OK, now I'm so puzzled I'll look like a fool. What's the mistake?kjh said:
Only spotted it because I got confused. Started to think I might need to book my place in the home for the permanently bewildered.Recidivist said:
Well spotted. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't pointed it out.kjh said:
Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The Tories just have to hope this is a passing Brexit madness. I'm not so hopeful. Brexit was just the Gavrilo Princip; many battles and the spillage of much blood still awaits.algarkirk said:
George Osborne is right about this. The moderate centre right has done well over a long time by not splitting, and by that ground not being contested by a lot of parties. Increasingly the LDs are not inhabiting centre right territory - and they hit a big problem the last time they did, in 2010. Millions of moderates will be less sympathetic to the Tories if it either stops being a place of intelligent dialogue (Clarke, Grieve, Cox, JRM, Stewart, Spelman to name a few) or starts being open to loud mothed extremes.WhisperingOracle said:This is exactly the sort of reaction I've sniffed from some of the reactions of less prominent Tories to Grieve today. Brexiters should beware of dismissing these future predictions just because they seem to come mainly from Remainers ; Remainers can still make a split happen.
http://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/11119011683541196810 -
Yes this casting of Grieve as a moderate by the media is a joke. He's just as extreme as Mark Francois and Steve baker.MarqueeMark said:
"moderates like Grieve".OblitusSumMe said:
Yes, it would seem that UK politics is continuing to polarise to the extremes and moderates like Grieve are being left behind.IanB2 said:
That is what *ought* to be happening.HYUFD said:
It is possible we could see CUK/TIG become a UK En Marche if say Raab or Boris succeeds May as Tory Leader and Corbyn stays Labour LeaderWhisperingOracle said:
If you look at those MPs and journalists who've already publicly aligned themselves with Grieve, you already have the first outlines of the next split. A big question in the Tory parliamentary party is how many "quiet remainers" are left, behind the familiar figures of Grieve and Clarke. There's certainly more than three or four, and those opposed to no-deal may be much greater. In the government alone you have Rudd, Liddington, Hammond, Clark, Gauke, Mundell, etc.HYUFD said:
Given 8 Labour MPs and 3 Tory MPs have already defected to CUK/TIG, both main parties are already split anyway, it is just the extent of the split that may get bigger but Blairites in Labour and Remainers in the Tory Party are now clearly a minorityWhisperingOracle said:The talk of national unity governments from people like Kirkup on the one hand, and no-deal campaigns by more than half of Tory members on the other, are so far apart that this is the kind of disconnected talk at the extreme ends of the spectrum that usually presages and predicts a split. The Tories will be incredibly lucky to get through the week without one.
And I would be early to the barricades.
But the evidence I would be followed by many isn't appearing. Yet, at least.
I would mind less about this were the representatives of those extremes not so monumentally stupid.
lol.....0 -
Ah. Now I see it. I'm sure there's some kind of metaphor for their current state in that...TheScreamingEagles said:
Lib Dems are listed as minus 2 when they should be plus 2.ydoethur said:
OK, now I'm so puzzled I'll look like a fool. What's the mistake?kjh said:
Only spotted it because I got confused. Started to think I might need to book my place in the home for the permanently bewildered.Recidivist said:
Well spotted. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't pointed it out.kjh said:
Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Over a small area you could try putting up some netting - for a larger area hire Victor Meldrew.kjh said:On a more important note than Brexit - How do you stop pheasants eating your grass seed? I don't own a shot gun and chasing them around the garden is pointless; we just go around in circles. They don't even have the decency to fly away.
0 -
Beaconsfield Betrayer Bites Back or Commons Conservative Constitutionalist Counters :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-477612410 -
Some of the Tories who claim to have been duped by the Whips might well switch back again in revenge.brendan16 said:I see Mrs May is planning to bring her deal back again next week for another vote.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122
230 to 149 to 58 - she is getting closer every time....0 -
But a potent and elegant scribe.AmpfieldAndy said:We’ll have to agree to disagree. He is a bigoted, bitter and twisted man in my view. How Remainers have the audacity to call Leavers bigoted when Parris writes tripe like his article today is beyond me.
0 -
I wonder if some or all of these polls now contain a Shy Leaver bias, rather like some VI surveys used to contain a Shy Tory bias?FF43 said:
There are two counteracting trends, identified by polling. There are Remain voters who think the result should be respected and would view vote Leave, and there are Leave voters who realise what a mess Brexit will be and would now vote Remain. The number in the second category is increasing, while those in the first appear to be static or decreasing. Such that on current polling, Remain would win a second referendum.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!
Tellingly, there are increasing numbers who voted Leave and now pretend they didn't.0 -
Wire mesh about 6 cm above the grass should do itkjh said:On a more important note than Brexit - How do you stop pheasants eating your grass seed? I don't own a shot gun and chasing them around the garden is pointless; we just go around in circles. They don't even have the decency to fly away.
0 -
Never thought I’d be described as working class!RochdalePioneers said:
If you have to get out of bed in the morning to pay your bills, you are working classFloater said:
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.
That’s one off the bucket list 😂0 -
There's no copyright on the "working class" term, so we can all be working class if we want to be. I don't think it's a classification that people doing analysis find useful. The ONS use socio-economic classifications based on employment. I think you would fall in their highest classification.Floater said:
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.0 -
Even as dumb as they are claiming they are to have been duped in such a fashion, I could believe they would do something like that. Ultimately there's large numbers who just don't want this, and they'll find a reason why even after concluding they should back it last time they won't this time, however silly. I'm surprised some of the MV2 remainers did not switch away from the WA.justin124 said:
Some of the Tories who claim to have been duped by the Whips might well switch back again in revenge.brendan16 said:I see Mrs May is planning to bring her deal back again next week for another vote.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122
230 to 149 to 58 - she is getting closer every time....
And in all honesty as much criticism as May does deserve for being too paralysed with fear of internal Tory factions to try a plan B, and elevating the risk we have as a result, parliament definitely has the chance to overcome that now. She made sure her deal was the most popular (though not least unpopular) of options to date, and it is not in parliament's court to show to her other options will do better.
Certainly not. While of course I have always been a fervent remainer, had I been so foolish as to have voted Leave I am sure I would feel no shame in admitting that.Black_Rook said:
I wonder if some or all of these polls now contain a Shy Leaver bias, rather like some VI surveys used to contain a Shy Tory bias?FF43 said:
There aThe_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who vot
Apparently the no dealers have not given up yet, so probably.GIN1138 said:Wonder if we're going to have more Saturday night madness from the Tory Party?
0 -
Doesn't count if the bills are for the upkeep of a country estate or the like, Charles!Charles said:
Never thought I’d be described as working class!RochdalePioneers said:
If you have to get out of bed in the morning to pay your bills, you are working classFloater said:
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.
That’s one off the bucket list 😂0 -
I think it’s sweet that someone still caresydoethur said:
Ah. Now I see it. I'm sure there's some kind of metaphor for their current state in that...TheScreamingEagles said:
Lib Dems are listed as minus 2 when they should be plus 2.ydoethur said:
OK, now I'm so puzzled I'll look like a fool. What's the mistake?kjh said:
Only spotted it because I got confused. Started to think I might need to book my place in the home for the permanently bewildered.Recidivist said:
Well spotted. I wouldn't have seen it if you hadn't pointed it out.kjh said:
Wasn't exactly proof read before published was it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Well he would say that wouldn't he?JackW said:Beaconsfield Betrayer Bites Back or Commons Conservative Constitutionalist Counters :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-47761241 0 -
If the Tories want to beat Corbyn confirms they need BorisTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Just a small house in the suburbskle4 said:
Doesn't count if the bills are for the upkeep of a country estate or the like, Charles!Charles said:
Never thought I’d be described as working class!RochdalePioneers said:
If you have to get out of bed in the morning to pay your bills, you are working classFloater said:
I earn a fair bit over the 60k figure.isam said:
I think that is valid actually. Personally I think someones class is defined by their upbringing, not current salary.tlg86 said:According to Figure 2 in that piece linked to by Richard Tyndall, there are people who earn over £60k who consider themselves to be working class:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/
I hope no one here falls into that category.
If a privately educated son of millionaires loses all his inherited wealth aged 40 and ends up on the dole in social housing, I would say they were an upper class person who has fallen on hard times. They're not working class.
Likewise, a council estate boy done good, maybe a rapper that comes from a disadvantaged upbringing, will always be working class even if they make £10m a year
I grew up in a council house and I very much still think of myself as working class.
That’s one off the bucket list 😂0 -
Depends what they are being shy about! That they have been made fools of, or that they actually think Brexit is a stunning success, despite being told the opposite?Black_Rook said:
I wonder if some or all of these polls now contain a Shy Leaver bias, rather like some VI surveys used to contain a Shy Tory bias?FF43 said:
There are two counteracting trends, identified by polling. There are Remain voters who think the result should be respected and would view vote Leave, and there are Leave voters who realise what a mess Brexit will be and would now vote Remain. The number in the second category is increasing, while those in the first appear to be static or decreasing. Such that on current polling, Remain would win a second referendum.The_Taxman said:Brexit:
I bumped into an old friend today who voted for Brexit and I was astonished to hear they wanted a second referendum and the decision to Brexit reversed. Something has shifted and they said others with similar opinions cannot believe the mess we are in at the moment.They did not realise the implications when they voted for it. They said the promises made by Leave were all based on sand and Boris Johnson was cited as warranting special criticism. So I learned two things from this Conservative member 1/ Brexit is becoming unpopular even with those who voted for it! 2/ Boris Johnson has suffered collateral damage to his standing amongst Tory members due to his Brexit posturing.
I realise those who support Brexit will say the above cannot be representative of the population but I disagree. This was a qualitive assessment of a typical person who voted leave. The cracks in the Brexit supporting monolith are starting to rupture the project!
Tellingly, there are increasing numbers who voted Leave and now pretend they didn't.0 -
No they don't.HYUFD said:
If the Tories want to beat Corbyn confirms they need BorisTheScreamingEagles said:
That opinium poll is an outlier.
Ipsos Mori are the gold standard.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/11115556989183303700 -
His popularity is surprisingly enduring for someone who has been fairly prominent for a long time, has held high office, has had numerous scandals, and flip flopped so publicly and so frequently with so little disguising his motivations of personal advancement. I don't understand it, but I don't think I can dismiss it because of how enduring it is.Casino_Royale said:
Who are the morons who haven't figured out Boris yet?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
May will put her Deal up against Customs Union or EUref2 though or whichever Brexit option wins the indicative votes head to head, not on its own like last weekjustin124 said:
Some of the Tories who claim to have been duped by the Whips might well switch back again in revenge.brendan16 said:I see Mrs May is planning to bring her deal back again next week for another vote.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47756122
230 to 149 to 58 - she is getting closer every time....0 -
No one would agree on who could receive a coronation to lead them into another one.IanB2 said:May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html
Maybe they should go into the upcoming GE with no leader at all, send a poster with the Tory logo to the leaders' debates - Corbyn would be flummoxed.0 -
Job done; 3 points. West Ham never in the game.0
-
Johnson still joint top on agree he has what it takes to be PM after May even on that poll.TheScreamingEagles said:
It might depend on the wording/question order*, this was the polling of the week for me.Casino_Royale said:
Who are the morons who haven't figured out Boris yet?TheScreamingEagles said:
This is of Tory voters.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/1111555698918330370
*I'm not questioning Opinium's motives or methodology but sometimes the question order has a minor impact on wording.
As Trump proved Marmite candidates can win0 -
Having lost a 20% lead in the polls last time, it would be electoral suicide to repeat it.kle4 said:
No one would agree on who could receive a coronation to lead them into another one.IanB2 said:May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html
Maybe they should go into the upcoming GE with no leader at all, send a poster with the Tory logo to the leaders' debates - Corbyn would be flummoxed.0 -
A split is probably inevitable, it's a question of timing and how big it is. No doubt he has said otherwise but I would not be surprised if Grieve, for instance, would probably quit the party if we do actually leave the EU. But as for the rest surely some split with a long extension, which we are getting unless no deal, which causes a smaller split.WhisperingOracle said:This is exactly the sort of reaction I've sniffed from some of the reactions of less prominent Tories to Grieve today. Brexiters should beware of dismissing these future predictions just because they seem to come mainly from Remainers ; Remainers can still make a split happen.
http://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1111901168354119681
It's no great loss. They cannot govern if they are so split on this issue, it doesn't matter if it is only 10 or 20%, or whatever, it is enough to paralyse them.
It'd just be nice if they could pass some Brexit outcome before they split.0 -
But it has been clear since her first "I might step down" speech that she is itching to have another go to wipe the humiliation of last time. With a double humiliation now from Brexit, maybe she feels like third time lucky?AmpfieldAndy said:
Having lost a 20% lead in the polls last time, it would be electoral suicide to repeat it.kle4 said:
No one would agree on who could receive a coronation to lead them into another one.IanB2 said:May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html
Maybe they should go into the upcoming GE with no leader at all, send a poster with the Tory logo to the leaders' debates - Corbyn would be flummoxed.0 -
Not disagreeing. I think a GE is an astoundingly stupid idea for the Tories, and a very bad idea for the country, nothing more than an epic can kicking exercise, with all the supposed chance of resolution people expect from it dependent on such a GE going exactly as they want, and ignoring the riven state of the Tories in particular.AmpfieldAndy said:
Having lost a 20% lead in the polls last time, it would be electoral suicide to repeat it.kle4 said:
No one would agree on who could receive a coronation to lead them into another one.IanB2 said:May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html
Maybe they should go into the upcoming GE with no leader at all, send a poster with the Tory logo to the leaders' debates - Corbyn would be flummoxed.
Unless they truly, deeply believe that a sub-optimal Brexit outcome is worth fighting at every cost (and there are some who think that) the rest of the party should do whatever it takes - CU, referemdum, whatever - to avoid going to a GE this year.
But so many seem to want it now.0 -
Boris joint top even on that poll on agree he has what it takes to be PM.TheScreamingEagles said:
No they don't.HYUFD said:
If the Tories want to beat Corbyn confirms they need BorisTheScreamingEagles said:
That opinium poll is an outlier.
Ipsos Mori are the gold standard.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/1111555698918330370
Javid may have the best net rating of all voters with Mori but most of the disagree voters will never vote Tory anyway. UKIP on 9% with Opinium too, many of those voters would return to a Boris led Tory Party and give the Tories the lead0 -
or get a dog or catCharles said:
Wire mesh about 6 cm above the grass should do itkjh said:On a more important note than Brexit - How do you stop pheasants eating your grass seed? I don't own a shot gun and chasing them around the garden is pointless; we just go around in circles. They don't even have the decency to fly away.
0 -
He seems like a very reasonable and moderate soul to me.MaxPB said:
Yes this casting of Grieve as a moderate by the media is a joke. He's just as extreme as Mark Francois and Steve baker.MarqueeMark said:
"moderates like Grieve".OblitusSumMe said:
Yes, it would seem that UK politics is continuing to polarise to the extremes and moderates like Grieve are being left behind.IanB2 said:
That is what *ought* to be happening.HYUFD said:
It is possible we could see CUK/TIG become a UK En Marche if say Raab or Boris succeeds May as Tory Leader and Corbyn stays Labour LeaderWhisperingOracle said:
If you look at those MPs and journalists who've already publicly aligned themselves with Grieve, you already have the first outlines of the next split. A big question in the Tory parliamentary party is how many "quiet remainers" are left, behind the familiar figures of Grieve and Clarke. There's certainly more than three or four, and those opposed to no-deal may be much greater. In the government alone you have Rudd, Liddington, Hammond, Clark, Gauke, Mundell, etc.HYUFD said:
Given 8 Labour MPs and 3 Tory MPs have already defected to CUK/TIG, both main parties are already split anyway, it is just the extent of the split that may get bigger but Blairites in Labour and Remainers in the Tory Party are now clearly a minorityWhisperingOracle said:The talk of national unity governments from people like Kirkup on the one hand, and no-deal campaigns by more than half of Tory members on the other, are so far apart that this is the kind of disconnected talk at the extreme ends of the spectrum that usually presages and predicts a split. The Tories will be incredibly lucky to get through the week without one.
And I would be early to the barricades.
But the evidence I would be followed by many isn't appearing. Yet, at least.
I would mind less about this were the representatives of those extremes not so monumentally stupid.
lol.....0 -
Perhaps Texit really is like Brexit. There'll be lots of infighting before the Tory party realises that none of the alternatives are better than the status quo, and they'll beg for a May extension.HYUFD said:
Boris joint top even on that poll on agree he has what it takes to be PM.TheScreamingEagles said:
No they don't.HYUFD said:
If the Tories want to beat Corbyn confirms they need BorisTheScreamingEagles said:
That opinium poll is an outlier.
Ipsos Mori are the gold standard.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/1111555698918330370
Javid may have the best net rating of all voters with Mori but most of the disagree voters will never vote Tory anyway0 -
Too many Tory marginals at stake to want to humour her desire to go for “third time lucky”. The time for an election is after they have a new leader not before.IanB2 said:
But it has been clear since her first "I might step down" speech that she is itching to have another go to wipe the humiliation of last time. With a double humiliation now from Brexit, maybe she feels like third time lucky?AmpfieldAndy said:
Having lost a 20% lead in the polls last time, it would be electoral suicide to repeat it.kle4 said:
No one would agree on who could receive a coronation to lead them into another one.IanB2 said:May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html
Maybe they should go into the upcoming GE with no leader at all, send a poster with the Tory logo to the leaders' debates - Corbyn would be flummoxed.0 -
He has been prepared to risk absolutely everything to achieve what he wants. His mildness of tone and intelligence do not disguise that he would be content see everything burn to achieve his aims. It is a joke that because he is articulate and mild that he gets a pass on the same pig headed stubborness and willingness to damn all but his preferred outcome as Baker or Francois.IanB2 said:
He seems like a very reasonable and moderate soul to me.MaxPB said:
Yes this casting of Grieve as a moderate by the media is a joke. He's just as extreme as Mark Francois and Steve baker.MarqueeMark said:
"moderates like Grieve".OblitusSumMe said:
Yes, it would seem that UK politics is continuing to polarise to the extremes and moderates like Grieve are being left behind.IanB2 said:
That is what *ought* to be happening.HYUFD said:
It is possible we could see CUK/TIG become a UK En Marche if say Raab or Boris succeeds May as Tory Leader and Corbyn stays Labour LeaderWhisperingOracle said:
If you ll, etc.HYUFD said:
Given 8 Labour MPs and 3 Tory MPs have already defected to CUK/TIG, both main parties are already split anyway, it is just the extent of the split that may get bigger but Blairites in Labour and Remainers in the Tory Party are now clearly a minorityWhisperingOracle said:The talk of national unity governments from people like Kirkup on the one hand, and no-deal campaigns by more than half of Tory members on the other, are so far apart that this is the kind of disconnected talk at the extreme ends of the spectrum that usually presages and predicts a split. The Tories will be incredibly lucky to get through the week without one.
And I would be early to the barricades.
But the evidence I would be followed by many isn't appearing. Yet, at least.
I would mind less about this were the representatives of those extremes not so monumentally stupid.
lol.....
He's more effective than them and a damn sight more likable, but he's the flip side of the coin - obsessive (as I am about him because people given him a free pass), uncaring of the risk to the country if he cannot get what he wants, and fanatically certain in the moral mission he is undertaking.
It's like how Corbyn is a mild mannered chap, pretty genial most of the time, but that doesn't mean everything he wants to do is as mild and genial, nor what he will do to get it.0 -
Look at who the Tories cosy up to in Scotland GIN, desperate indeed.GIN1138 said:Wonder if we're going to have more Saturday night madness from the Tory Party?
https://wingsoverscotland.com/ruths-fishy-friends/
0 -
You sound like IOS back in 2014/early 2015.HYUFD said:
Boris joint top even on that poll on agree he has what it takes to be PM.TheScreamingEagles said:
No they don't.HYUFD said:
If the Tories want to beat Corbyn confirms they need BorisTheScreamingEagles said:
That opinium poll is an outlier.
Ipsos Mori are the gold standard.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/1111555698918330370
Javid may have the best net rating of all voters with Mori but most of the disagree voters will never vote Tory anyway. UKIP on 9% with Opinium too, many of those voters would return to a Boris led Tory Party and give the Tories the lead
You need to look at the net ratings, looking at the absolute ratings is misleading, and not very accurate.0 -
Lab and SNP Government on those numbers but Tories largest partyTheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1112058941238841344?s=200 -
I assume May, whose credibility is non existent, is trying to scare a few more rebels into supporting her woeful deal with talk of an election. A soft Brexit is not a long term solution for anyone because it has no wororthwile benefits in their own right. For Remainers it’s just a temporary stop on the way to re-entry. For Leavers, there is no realistic exit out - just back in.kle4 said:
Not disagreeing. I think a GE is an astoundingly stupid idea for the Tories, and a very bad idea for the country, nothing more than an epic can kicking exercise, with all the supposed chance of resolution people expect from it dependent on such a GE going exactly as they want, and ignoring the riven state of the Tories in particular.AmpfieldAndy said:
Having lost a 20% lead in the polls last time, it would be electoral suicide to repeat it.kle4 said:
No one would agree on who could receive a coronation to lead them into another one.IanB2 said:May to lead Tories into another GE (!?):
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/general-election-strong-prospect-theresa-181000280.html
Maybe they should go into the upcoming GE with no leader at all, send a poster with the Tory logo to the leaders' debates - Corbyn would be flummoxed.
Unless they truly, deeply believe that a sub-optimal Brexit outcome is worth fighting at every cost (and there are some who think that) the rest of the party should do whatever it takes - CU, referemdum, whatever - to avoid going to a GE this year.
But so many seem to want it now.0 -
Grieve has almost single-handedly ensured parliament a greater say in a project which the executive has almost catastrophically failed to implement, failed to reach a clear position on - the barely agreed WA is no clear position - and never fully understood. I'd find that strange to describe as fanaticism.kle4 said:
He has been prepared to risk absolutely everything to achieve what he wants. His mildness of tone and intelligence do not disguise that he would be content see everything burn to achieve his aims. It is a joke that because he is articulate and mild that he gets a pass on the same pig headed stubborness and willingness to damn all but his preferred outcome as Baker or Francois.IanB2 said:
He seems like a very reasonable and moderate soul to me.MaxPB said:
Yes this casting of Grieve as a moderate by the media is a joke. He's just as extreme as Mark Francois and Steve baker.MarqueeMark said:
"moderates like Grieve".OblitusSumMe said:
Yes, it would seem that UK politics is continuing to polarise to the extremes and moderates like Grieve are being left behind.IanB2 said:
That is what *ought* to be happening.HYUFD said:
It is possible we could see CUK/TIG become a UK En Marche if say Raab or Boris succeeds May as Tory Leader and Corbyn stays Labour LeaderWhisperingOracle said:
If you ll, etc.HYUFD said:
Given 8 Labour MPs and 3 Tory MPs have already defected to CUK/TIG, both main parties are already split anyway, it is just the extent of the split that may get bigger but Blairites in Labour and Remainers in the Tory Party are now clearly a minorityWhisperingOracle said:The talk of national unity governments from people like Kirkup on the one hand, and no-deal campaigns by more than half of Tory members on the other, are so far apart that this is the kind of disconnected talk at the extreme ends of the spectrum that usually presages and predicts a split. The Tories will be incredibly lucky to get through the week without one.
And I would be early to the barricades.
But the evidence I would be followed by many isn't appearing. Yet, at least.
I would mind less about this were the representatives of those extremes not so monumentally stupid.
lol.....
He's more effective than them and a damn sight more likable, but he's the flip side of the coin - obsessive (as I am about him because people given him a free pass), uncaring of the risk to the country if he cannot get what he wants, and fanatically certain in the moral mission he is undertaking.0 -
Surely Opinium suggests the best leader for Con at a GE would be TMay - by miles.
Now that may seem ridiculous after the 2017 campaign but who knows.
If they can avoid any unforced errors like the dementia tax and just campaign on delivering Brexit + a strong economy - and make "tax bombshell" the main focus of attack on Labour then she might surprise on the upside.0 -
Last play of the Tory no dealers. Larger group than I would have thought.williamglenn said:
Long extension means no brexit, I get what they are anxious. But fact is the Brexiteers have blown it, they've had their chance and failed. Now it is just scrabbling against the inevitable.0 -
Not necessarily, in 2016 Trump's net ratings were awful but his absolute ratings were better and he won as his supporters were enthused to turn out and voteTheScreamingEagles said:
You sound like IOS back in 2014/early 2015.HYUFD said:
Boris joint top even on that poll on agree he has what it takes to be PM.TheScreamingEagles said:
No they don't.HYUFD said:
If the Tories want to beat Corbyn confirms they need BorisTheScreamingEagles said:
That opinium poll is an outlier.
Ipsos Mori are the gold standard.
https://twitter.com/timesredbox/status/1111555698918330370
Javid may have the best net rating of all voters with Mori but most of the disagree voters will never vote Tory anyway. UKIP on 9% with Opinium too, many of those voters would return to a Boris led Tory Party and give the Tories the lead
You need to look at the net ratings, looking at the absolute ratings is misleading, and not very accurate.0 -
Presumably the no dealers and others positioning themselves for the leadership. But more than 400 MPs will favour delay over no deal.williamglenn said:0
