politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Britain has deceived itself about the EU for decades and is do

Mr b,

Huddersfield fans are far more sporting than average, and to a lesser extent so are Fulham fans. But they are both likely to be relegated this season.

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:

notme2 said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.

May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.

Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.

What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?

Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.

No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship

It's an option if you accept things like financial contributions and FOM. On its own, it's a unicorn.

Customs Union does not require FOM unlike Single Market, more contributions maybe

Mysticrose said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1108287579055632384

Can an SO24 be filibustered?

Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.

And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.

But how.

90% of the conservative party are not remainers nor are a considerably number of labour mps

CarlottaVance said:

As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.

One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.

That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html

That plane's going to be getting recertified from scratch - good luck getting them back in the air this year!

Ishmael_Z said:

notme2 said:

Ishmael_Z said:

kjohnw said:

Jonathan said:

The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.

Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come

You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?

In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.

Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.

Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mysticrose said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1108287579055632384

Can an SO24 be filibustered?

Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.

And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.

But how.

90% of the conservative party are not remainers nor are a considerably number of labour mps

In a hung parliament 90% of Tory MPs is nowhere near a majority, the Commons voted by 200 to extend Article 50, most Tory MPs voted against extending Article 50

Mysticrose said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/DanielBoffey/status/1108299016062799874

This is possibly the most important moment of the past month. I really don't like Corbyn but he has done b ugger all so far. If he now cranks it up and finally steps in, then it's curtains for Brexit in its current form.

All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.

You are not being realistic. Half of Corbyn's front bench will resign if he seeks a referendum

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.

One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.

That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html

That plane's going to be getting recertified from scratch - good luck getting them back in the air this year!

Rather startling detail about the first crash, which I don't think I've seen previously reported:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/03/20/world/one-day-deadly-crash-off-duty-pilot-saved-lion-air-737-max-malfunctioning-flight-control-system/
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.

The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.

The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....

kjohnw said:

Jonathan said:

The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.

Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come

I think this is both an over- and an under-statement. Civil unrest is chiefly caused by young males given an excuse to kick off, and that genie has already been let out of the bottle (the dramatic increase in violent, racist crimes). Oh, and 70-odd leaver pensioners trudging through the drizzle.

That's the overstatement aspect.

The understatement is that it doesn't matter what the ultimate outcome is - we have already precipitated a "sudden earth movement" in what could have instead been a managed relative decline that took place over decades.

How well we contain it depends on the kind of Brexit that occurs; but there will be increasing numbers of poorer, more disenfranchised people with no coherent political leadership, and no sense of hope for improvement. A very dangerous vacuum. That is the long term disaster we have wrought upon ourselves and it will take more than one generation to play out (rather like the post-war consensus itself).

NickPalmer said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1108291357435744256

That's still quite possible. But a factual question as I've genuinely lost track. There was a suggestion that the Government would be allowing indicative votes in the next few days. Is that going to happen?

Nobody knows.

The lesson for all parties, keep a few elder statesmen on the back benches just in case you need them.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sky news have jumped the shark today....

And yesterday. They are barking mad

Jonathan said:

The lesson for all parties, keep a few elder statesmen on the back benches just in case you need them.

This is Ken Clarke's moment.

He'll finally become Prime Minister.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mysticrose said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/DanielBoffey/status/1108299016062799874

This is possibly the most important moment of the past month. I really don't like Corbyn but he has done b ugger all so far. If he now cranks it up and finally steps in, then it's curtains for Brexit in its current form.

All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.

You are not being realistic. Half of Corbyn's front bench will resign if he seeks a referendum

Well that's the Labour Party official position. But that's not what I meant or said. He just needs to take control of it with the EU-HoC. If they go full-bore on the HoC deciding the future of Brexit he will win a majority for that. End of May's deal. Probably end of May too.

Sean_F said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Slackbladder said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

BBC saying 90% of the conservative party would have rebelled if TM had asked for a long delay

FFS..what idiots. They're NOT GETTING A SHORT DELAY...

Unless, of course, they vote for the MV3...which Bercow now won't let them do.

Corbyn will be PM before long, this can't go on.

Please do not shout. It is unnecessary and with respect it does look as if the EU prefer the short extension as it does not complicate the EU elections. I would suggest it may be wise to see how this evolves over the next few days

Yeh, I thought the EU wanted a delay to be as short as possible. They're as fed up as we are.

Even countries like Denmark who really really like the UK and don't want to lose their bigger stronger brother in the EU have had enough. A long extension is not going to be on offer because there is zero evidence it could be used for anything other than timewasting. It's getting to the point of No Deal or Revoke being the only two credible options - either will destroy the tories so May might just as well pick Revoke as it will do less damage overall. Perhaps she could do it very publically at the summit and then take a long long holiday far far away.

Scott_P said:

MarqueeMark said:

Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.

Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.

Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.

You won.

Suck it up.

No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.

rottenborough said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1108300782020018178

FFS

She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...

When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.

She learns nothing.

How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?

She should stop appeasing them once we're out. As has been oft-said by Remainers like yourself "we haven't left yet".

Cyclefree clearsighted as usual. I was recently in Tasmania and one of my friends said that looking at Brexit from the EU's perspective the logical decision would be to refuse an extension and enter a period of "no Deal". He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.

Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.

If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?

Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.

Casino_Royale said:

Streeter said:

Casino_Royale said:

"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."

Bollocks.

Bollocks in what particular sense?

Fact - at this moment in time the UK has no control over its future economic and security relationships with the EU, and thereby with the rest of the world. We are entirely dependent on the goodwill of 27 other nations, any of whom could deny our elected leader her principle objective.

“Siri - show me what a vassal state looks like.”

The UK is requesting an emergency (temporary) extension to an organisation it wishes to leave, which is no doubt exasperated by it. That is very different to a vassal state which is where a state is dictated to by its superiors.

Brexit means we do have more immediate control over trade, regulation and immigration within the UK, and it also means at the same time that we have less influence within a neighbouring bigger player of which we used to be a member of the same. Sometimes that'll work out in our favour, sometimes it won't, and that's the trade off.

It's not what a vassal state means. Such phrases are sheer journalistic hyperbole, and rather cliched ones at that. And i'm getting rather tired of them.

It is not journalistic hyperbole. It is hyperbole used repeatedly - and apparently intended to be taken seriously - by the head of the ERG, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Hyperbolic nonsense: yes. But when we are dependant on the decisions of 27 other states to get enough time to pass our own legislation, we are not in control.

Nigelb said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.

One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.

That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html

That plane's going to be getting recertified from scratch - good luck getting them back in the air this year!

Rather startling detail about the first crash, which I don't think I've seen previously reported:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/03/20/world/one-day-deadly-crash-off-duty-pilot-saved-lion-air-737-max-malfunctioning-flight-control-system/
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.

The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.

The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....

Yes, that's new today. Not good for the airline, that plane should have been grounded for inspection the day before the crash.

Dead-head or relief pilots can be very useful in an emergency. When the Qantas A380 had an engine explode a few years ago, there were five pilots in the cockpit, including three Captains - which was a huge factor in a successful resolution to the incident. A regular two-person crew might not have been so lucky.

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1108303155765407745

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

MarqueeMark said:

Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.

Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.

Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.

You won.

Suck it up.

No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.

Why do you concentrate on the remainer MPs? There is a deal at the table, and the running on debasing that deal has been done by the ERG. If the ERG had accepted that deal, we might actually get a workable Brexit. Instead, they've blocked it at every turn, and given others cover to block it.

If leavers want to look at the cause of this mess, they should look no further than their own actions.

(Remainers share some of the blame, but only a tiny fraction of the burden that leavers have.)

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?

https://twitter.com/gabrielmilland/status/1108294736459239424

Sandpit said:

Nigelb said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.


That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html

That plane's going to be getting recertified from scratch - good luck getting them back in the air this year!

Rather startling detail about the first crash, which I don't think I've seen previously reported:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/03/20/world/one-day-deadly-crash-off-duty-pilot-saved-lion-air-737-max-malfunctioning-flight-control-system/
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.

The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.

The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....

Yes, that's new today. Not good for the airline, that plane should have been grounded for inspection the day before the crash.

Dead-head or relief pilots can be very useful in an emergency. When the Qantas A380 had an engine explode a few years ago, there were five pilots in the cockpit, including three Captains - which was a huge factor in a successful resolution to the incident. A regular two-person crew might not have been so lucky.

If nothing else, it provides a casting vote on how to react.

rottenborough said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1108300782020018178

FFS

She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...

When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.

She learns nothing.

How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?

Another bad advert for the supposed rigours of Oxford, unfortunately, like Hannan.

FeersumEnjineeya said:

topherdawson said:

Cyclefree clearsighted as usual. I was recently in Tasmania and one of my friends said that looking at Brexit from the EU's perspective the logical decision would be to refuse an extension and enter a period of "no Deal". He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.

Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.

If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?

Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.

Sadly, I'd have to agree with him. No deal is looking ever more likely, and we need to prepare for it. It's going to be a dark time, but the possibility of rejoining the EU will be the light at the end of the tunnel.

I am not so sanguine.
A painful no deal exit is quite likely to be followed by a lengthy sulk.

Ishmael_Z said:

JosiasJessop said:

MarqueeMark said:

Ishmael_Z said:

notme2 said:

Ishmael_Z said:

kjohnw said:

Jonathan said:

The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.

Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come

You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?

In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.

Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.

Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.

Not remainers: Brexiteers and hardcore leavers who wanted to leave the EU and damn the price, monetary or social.

They're a bunch of fucking winnets.

The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.

I wish you had not made me google that.

The Cabinet should act now. Remove May and instal Hague as caretaker. Enough now.

The Conservatives have moved into the lead in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election#Pre-campaign_period

Meanwhile, the Australian Labour Party have a fairly significant lead ahead of the election this year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_Australian_federal_election#Voting_intention

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1108304140164386816

Bercow will give this big time backing. Question is, can it be filibustered? Or objected?

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1108304140164386816

Go!!!!!

rottenborough said:

Ishmael_Z said:

JosiasJessop said:

MarqueeMark said:

Ishmael_Z said:

notme2 said:

Ishmael_Z said:

kjohnw said:

Jonathan said:

The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.

Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come

You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?

In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.

Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.

Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.

Not remainers: Brexiteers and hardcore leavers who wanted to leave the EU and damn the price, monetary or social.

They're a bunch of fucking winnets.

The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.

I wish you had not made me google that.

The Cabinet should act now. Remove May and instal Hague as caretaker. Enough now.

Problem is the cabinet are split but in the wider party leave dominates hence TM decision to ask for a short extension

No idea where this ends but the deal has always been the way out, like it or not

AndyJS said:

The Conservatives have moved into the lead in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election#Pre-campaign_period

The Trudeu scandal continues.

Ishmael_Z said:

CD13 said:

Ms Cyclefree,

I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.

I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.

With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.

Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.

As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.

Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.

I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.

The irony is that 3 years ago I was tending towards Leave for many of the same reasons as @rcs1000. When Leave won, contrary to my expectations, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and expected, naively I realise, that they had a plan. It is the behaviour of Leavers over the last two and a half years which has turned me into a Remainer.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

kjohnw said:

Recidivist said:

kjohnw said:

Jonathan said:

The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.

Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come

Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.

No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .

Why should we believe Leavers that say No Deal Brexit will be fine when said Brexiteers said No Deal was just Project Fear?

Because that was before a Remainer came in and sabotaged No Deal. Remainers May and Robbins will be gone from this very shortly.

Yeah, if only we had competent Leavers like DNSR Fox, Davis, Boris, Dominic 'I never knew Calais was this close to the UK' Raab, and Chris Grayling in charge of Brexit.

Exactly. Because no-one can possibly prove it either way leavers who dismiss the whole sorry mess by telling us it would have been fine with a leaver in charge are really really beginning to p*ss me off. It's the sort of delusional attitude that led us to where we are now. There is zero indication that any of the leading leaders would have been anything but useless. Gove might have done OK but would certainly have been reclassified as an enemy of the people months ago.

AlastairMeeks said:

Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.

https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1108068777919479810

There is a certain piquancy to #Brexit being scuppered by Parliamentary Sovereignty...

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?

Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.

If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.

Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.

No, no, no, no, no.

You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.

I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.

I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.

Then you will have no objection to this Parliament finding ways to hold this government to account when it wilfully disregards the instructions given to it.

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?

MP's currently have a favorability rating of 5%, so the answer is plain.

Cyclefree said:

Ishmael_Z said:

CD13 said:

Ms Cyclefree,

I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.

With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.

Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.

As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.

Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.

I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.

The irony is that 3 years ago I was tending towards Leave for many of the same reasons as @rcs1000. When Leave won, contrary to my expectations, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and expected, naively I realise, that they had a plan. It is the behaviour of Leavers over the last two and a half years which has turned me into a Remainer.

It was obvious at the time they had no plan. I mean there was Vote Leave and Leave.EU for a start. Cameron designed the referendum so that they didn’t need one, and because it was status quo versus ethereal concept we would all dutifully vote for remain. I know I voted for remain as I didn’t think the short term financial uncertainty was worth the trouble.

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1108302669549105152

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1108304984498679808

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?

Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.

If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.

Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.

No, no, no, no, no.

You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.

I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.

I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.

Then you will have no objection to this Parliament finding ways to hold this government to account when it wilfully disregards the instructions given to it.

Since the government is trying to find ways to honour the instruction given to it by the people and this Parliament is not, yes I do object.

Theuniondivvie said:

Nice to see a flash of the old Tory party that we know and love.

https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1108293072390098944

She is so going to hate my next thread header. Good.

Philip_Thompson said:

JosiasJessop said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

MarqueeMark said:

Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.

Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.

Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.

You won.

Suck it up.

No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.

Why do you concentrate on the remainer MPs? There is a deal at the table, and the running on debasing that deal has been done by the ERG. If the ERG had accepted that deal, we might actually get a workable Brexit. Instead, they've blocked it at every turn, and given others cover to block it.

If leavers want to look at the cause of this mess, they should look no further than their own actions.

(Remainers share some of the blame, but only a tiny fraction of the burden that leavers have.)

The ERG are being entirely logical from where they stand. There are two feasible states of Brexit at this point: Brexit with a deal, Brexit without a deal.

Apart from Grieve and a few other headbangers the Tories fall under one category or another. May, Gove etc back Brexit with a deal. Mogg, Johnson etc back Brexit without a deal.

What I find contemptible is those supposedly against no deal who also go against the deal. That is contemptible. If you want to avoid no deal then take the deal. If you're OK with no deal then oppose the deal.

That's illogical, as there's more feasible end-states than Brexit: extension or revoke being two (and an extension could still end in revoke). The hardcore Brexiteers are taking a massive gamble with their vision, and with the future of the country.

The contemptible ones are the no-dealers. I mean, just look at them and ask yourself how much the likes of Johnson and JRM will be hurt by it: in fact, JRM might even make money out of it.

AlastairMeeks said:

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?

MP's currently have a favorability rating of 5%, so the answer is plain.

Yes, the nihilism of Leavers has been mortally successful.

I rather think MPs have brought this on themselves

Starting with the expenses scandal 10 years ago its been all downhill ever since

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1108301413376053248

Bent? The only thing bent is Bercow.

That would be breaking the rules.

When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.

The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.

Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?

Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.

If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.

Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.

No, no, no, no, no.

You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.

I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.

I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.

Then you will have no objection to this Parliament finding ways to hold this government to account when it wilfully disregards the instructions given to it.

Since the government is trying to find ways to honour the instruction given to it by the people and this Parliament is not, yes I do object.

So you do want the government to ignore Parliament? So you do want to destroy Parliamentary sovereignty?

Make your mind up. The principle is not contingent on whether you like Parliament’s instructions.