I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I wish they had but we are where are. The deal is not passing and no extension or short extension will change that. Brexit is no deal or it is over and parliament needs to decide how it wants to break that to us.
"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."
Bollocks.
We are in the hands of tube-surfing Owen Paterson and a couple of dozen other ERG headbangers including perhaps your friends (I have a couple also in that group).
They manifestly don’t represent the views of the overwhelming majority of the country.
"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."
Bollocks.
Impeccable logic, as ever.
Disgusting talking down of Britain.
Britain is not a vassal state and that final sentence is hyperbole that totally fails to recognise what a vassal state actually means.
It would have been nice - and fundamentally more constructive - if you could have vociferously made that point when your fellow headbangers were bandying the phrase around. But you preferred to pander to their prejudices. The inactions of people like you are a central component of why Britain is currently in the mess that it is in.
He thought Band Of Outlaws was strong but he doesn't like giving short-priced favorites which may have put you off. He did mention the second though - Coko Beach - so maybe drink less Guinness next time? ;-)
He is a professional and always worth listening too but he almost invariably bets at double-figure prices, so it can be a long wait between successes.
so maybe drink less Guinness next time?
Huh?
Yes, I have done well out of listening to him in the past. I just do better off track than on. Maybe the Guinness is a factor...
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Probably another referendum would vote leave. The trouble is that our politicians are wedded to negative campaigning. The Remain campaign was not that the EU was a marvellous institution but that the EU was appalling but the world outside is a scary place. Always keep tight hold of nurse for fear of finding WTO worse! The case for Remain started by conceding most of the Brexiteers' case.
Until that changes, billions on advertising for Remain will actually mean Remain spending billions on advertising reasons to Leave.
It didn't help that the de-facto leader of the Remain side was David Cameron, who until about 25 minutes before had been telling everyone how unbelievably shit the EU was and implying that he'd want to leave it, but for the possibility that he might be able to show up there on a sunny Thursday afternoon and change it into something different, which he then proceeded to fail to do.
"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."
Bollocks.
Bollocks in what particular sense?
Fact - at this moment in time the UK has no control over its future economic and security relationships with the EU, and thereby with the rest of the world. We are entirely dependent on the goodwill of 27 other nations, any of whom could deny our elected leader her principle objective.
“Siri - show me what a vassal state looks like.”
I think some people have a sneaking feeling that we would be better off as a country if we were a vassal state for a year or so, while, say, Governor Barnier was installed to restore sanity. A bit like former colonies with rampantly hopeless governments thinking that actually British rule wasn't that bad.
I don't think anyone thinks being told what to do by an organisation you are not part of is a good thing. It is where we are ending up. "Vassal State" is a loaded term but there are big differences of principle and in practical outcome between collective decision making where you are bound by the common agreement, and being forced to do what you are told.
It must happen. The government is still pretending there is a possibility its deal passes and wont consider anything else. They must be made to do otherwise starting with the extension.
I'd prefer the deal to pass than a long extension too, but if they had the numbers for that theyd be voting on it already.
The only problem is that the government will whip against it and it will not pass.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
The problem is all the alternatives to Mrs May are worse.
She doesn't even agree with her own deputy. Blimey. The demise of the party cannot come soon enough
Her deputy is at the centre of it being a "Remainer Cabinet".
Trying to keep a Cabinet balanced between Remainers and Leavers has been fundamental to May's problems. The Cabinet has been polarised, unable to offer a strong direction to the House. Those MPs who want to Remain have been given ample cover, from within the heart of the Executive.
Remainers have to mobilise and get a strategy. The strategy has to lead to reversing the Referendum. No ifs no buts....We have to be as single minded and ruthless as the Leavers have been for the last 42 years.
48%-at least-don't want it and there's no reason why we should allow ourselves to go to hell in a handcart because three years ago the stupid half of the country were conned into voting for it by the drip feed of the right wing press.
We should start with the biggest advertising campaign in British history. It should be relentless. There are no restrictions on pro EU advertising now. We need a spend equivalent to the 42 years editorialising in the right wing press. We're talking billions....
Probably another referendum would vote leave. The trouble is that our politicians are wedded to negative campaigning. The Remain campaign was not that the EU was a marvellous institution but that the EU was appalling but the world outside is a scary place. Always keep tight hold of nurse for fear of finding WTO worse! The case for Remain started by conceding most of the Brexiteers' case.
Until that changes, billions on advertising for Remain will actually mean Remain spending billions on advertising reasons to Leave.
An astute post. There was no 'Remain' campaign last time other than -as you say- it could be worse. A difficult sell after the same team had spent years telling us the reverse. We now need a complete rethink.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
The problem is all the alternatives to Mrs May are worse in terms of Tory leadership candidates.
They need a coronation of someone with a temporary mandate, say two years. We are at the stage where anyone is better than her. We are doomed with May.
There is much in the thread header that I agree with. The dishonesty, self delusion and general incompetence of our political class did not start with May, even if the current Parliament has moved it onto a new level.
Where I slightly disagree with the tone and attitude is that the UK has by no means cornered the market in political stupidity and self delusion. There has been plenty of that on the EU side of the fence as well. This is not good news because it means that we cannot expect the EU to act in a way which we consider self evidently in their interests (German car makers anyone?). They are more than capable of matching our delusions despite the heroic efforts of Westminster.
Our perception of the EU self interest that they don't share is surely the self-deception Cyclefree talks about? The Brexit clusterfuck is in our interest, precisely how?
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Remainers have to mobilise and get a strategy. The strategy has to lead to reversing the Referendum. No ifs no buts....We have to be as single minded and ruthless as the Leavers have been for the last 42 years.
48%-at least-don't want it and there's no reason why we should allow ourselves to go to hell in a handcart because three years ago the stupid half of the country were conned into voting for it by the drip feed of the right wing press.
We should start with the biggest advertising campaign in British history. It should be relentless. There are no restrictions on pro EU advertising now. We need a spend equivalent to the 42 years editorialising in the right wing press. We're talking billions....
Probably another referendum would vote leave. The trouble is that our politicians are wedded to negative campaigning. The Remain campaign was not that the EU was a marvellous institution but that the EU was appalling but the world outside is a scary place. Always keep tight hold of nurse for fear of finding WTO worse! The case for Remain started by conceding most of the Brexiteers' case.
Until that changes, billions on advertising for Remain will actually mean Remain spending billions on advertising reasons to Leave.
An astute post. There was no 'Remain' campaign last time other than -as you say- it could be worse. A difficult sell after the same team had spent years telling us the reverse. We now need a complete rethink.
Agree. The 'deceptions' Cyclefree lists are mostly in truth the deceptions of a political class. Their greatest deception, now coming home to roost, is that Britain's part in the EU could be shaped without the whole hearted consent, based on compelling arguments and a clear vision, of the UK people in a series of referenda over the last 40 years. It is now too late to repair it, a fact which has the makings of tragedy.
In the short term maybe. But perhaps we’ve reached a stage where the only route back to sanity in our political class is to embrace insanity and find it wanting.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
The problem is all the alternatives to Mrs May are worse in terms of Tory leadership candidates.
They need a coronation of someone with a temporary mandate, say two years. We are at the stage where anyone is better than her. We are doomed with May.
The public do not agree with you that anyone is better
Remainers have to mobilise and get a strategy. The strategy has to lead to reversing the Referendum. No ifs no buts....We have to be as single minded and ruthless as the Leavers have been for the last 42 years.
48%-at least-don't want it and there's no reason why we should allow ourselves to go to hell in a handcart because three years ago the stupid half of the country were conned into voting for it by the drip feed of the right wing press.
We should start with the biggest advertising campaign in British history. It should be relentless. There are no restrictions on pro EU advertising now. We need a spend equivalent to the 42 years editorialising in the right wing press. We're talking billions....
To be honest, as much as I dislike Boris, I am struggling to see how he could be worse at this point. Assuming he pushed for no deal, at least positions would be clear and parliament would act accordingly. With May, everyone is just in an indefinite holding pattern.
She doesn't even agree with her own deputy. Blimey. The demise of the party cannot come soon enough
Her deputy is at the centre of it being a "Remainer Cabinet".
Trying to keep a Cabinet balanced between Remainers and Leavers has been fundamental to May's problems. The Cabinet has been polarised, unable to offer a strong direction to the House. Those MPs who want to Remain have been given ample cover, from within the heart of the Executive.
It's funny that people accuse her of not paying attention to Remainer voters, she has... otherwise she would have fully been on board with Boris, Davis et al.
I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
To be honest, as much as I dislike Boris, I am struggling to see how he could be worse at this point. Assuming he pushed for no deal, at least positions would be clear and parliament would act accordingly. With May, everyone is just in an indefinite holding pattern.
I have reached the point where I can't see that anyone would be worse than May, who just wants to stay in No.10 another day, each day, and stop a split in her party that has already happened. Her husband needs to have a word. This is enough now.
In 1985, I went to Wembley to watch Boston United play Wealdstone in the final of the FA Trophy. Just before Wealdstone scored their second and winning goal in a 2 - 1 victory, the ball ran out of play off a Wealdstone player, yet the throw-in was given their way. Surely, we should have a replay?
The referee was biased, the linesman (as they were called then) was wrong, and we were obviously the better team. But when I check the record books, they still won the Cup. Life's so unfair. The referendum has all brought this back to me. You bastards!
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
The problem is all the alternatives to Mrs May are worse in terms of Tory leadership candidates.
They need a coronation of someone with a temporary mandate, say two years. We are at the stage where anyone is better than her. We are doomed with May.
The public do not agree with you that anyone is better
The public are wrong on this point. She is the cause of much of the current pain. We need fresh air and new thinking.
"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."
Bollocks.
Bollocks in what particular sense?
Fact - at this moment in time the UK has no control over its future economic and security relationships with the EU, and thereby with the rest of the world. We are entirely dependent on the goodwill of 27 other nations, any of whom could deny our elected leader her principle objective.
“Siri - show me what a vassal state looks like.”
I think some people have a sneaking feeling that we would be better off as a country if we were a vassal state for a year or so, while, say, Governor Barnier was installed to restore sanity. A bit like former colonies with rampantly hopeless governments thinking that actually British rule wasn't that bad.
I don't think anyone thinks being told what to do by an organisation you are not part of is a good thing. It is where we are ending up. "Vassal State" is a loaded term but there are big differences of principle and in practical outcome between collective decision making where you are bound by the common agreement, and being forced to do what you are told.
No-one would be using the term Vassal State if it hadn't first been used by swivel-eyed Brexiteers to describe a relationship with the EU that gave us far more control than we currently have or will have for the forseeable future.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
Why should we believe Leavers that say No Deal Brexit will be fine when said Brexiteers said No Deal was just Project Fear?
BBC saying 90% of the conservative party would have rebelled if TM had asked for a long delay
FFS..what idiots. They're NOT GETTING A SHORT DELAY...
Unless, of course, they vote for the MV3...which Bercow now won't let them do.
Corbyn will be PM before long, this can't go on.
Please do not shout. It is unnecessary and with respect it does look as if the EU prefer the short extension as it does not complicate the EU elections. I would suggest it may be wise to see how this evolves over the next few days
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
Why should we believe Leavers that say No Deal Brexit will be fine when said Brexiteers said No Deal was just Project Fear?
Because that was before a Remainer came in and sabotaged our negotiations and folded our cards. Remainers May and Robbins will be gone from this very shortly.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
Why should we believe Leavers that say No Deal Brexit will be fine when said Brexiteers said No Deal was just Project Fear?
Because that was before a Remainer came in and sabotaged No Deal. Remainers May and Robbins will be gone from this very shortly.
Yeah, if only we had competent Leavers like DNSR Fox, Davis, Boris, Dominic 'I never knew Calais was this close to the UK' Raab, and Chris Grayling in charge of Brexit.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
The problem is all the alternatives to Mrs May are worse in terms of Tory leadership candidates.
They need a coronation of someone with a temporary mandate, say two years. We are at the stage where anyone is better than her. We are doomed with May.
The public do not agree with you that anyone is better
The public are wrong on this point. She is the cause of much of the current pain. We need fresh air and new thinking.
"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."
Bollocks.
Bollocks in what particular sense?
Fact - at this moment in time the UK has no control over its future economic and security relationships with the EU, and thereby with the rest of the world. We are entirely dependent on the goodwill of 27 other nations, any of whom could deny our elected leader her principle objective.
“Siri - show me what a vassal state looks like.”
I think some people have a sneaking feeling that we would be better off as a country if we were a vassal state for a year or so, while, say, Governor Barnier was installed to restore sanity. A bit like former colonies with rampantly hopeless governments thinking that actually British rule wasn't that bad.
I don't think anyone thinks being told what to do by an organisation you are not part of is a good thing. It is where we are ending up. "Vassal State" is a loaded term but there are big differences of principle and in practical outcome between collective decision making where you are bound by the common agreement, and being forced to do what you are told.
No-one would be using the term Vassal State if it hadn't first been used by swivel-eyed Brexiteers to describe a relationship with the EU that gave us far more control than we currently have or will have for the forseeable future.
Yep. They've dug their own grave.
Instead of shouting the deal was RUBBISH!!!!! they would have been much wiser to go for Not bad, but needs improvement - but thats the trouble with absolutists, they make the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
We probably need to stay in the EU for another two years or so to sort ourselves out because we obviously don't have a clue what to do.
Quite!
It's by no means certain the EU are going to agree to this short delay just to try and ram her deal through. They may well set conditions or a longer delay.
Sky have taken leave of their senses. They are fixated on their ocean dive and it is dominating their coverage at the expense of all other news
At this moment of crisis what do they think they are doing.
BBC thankfully are providing the news
It does sort of have the feel of "we planned all this a while back and we're locked into talking about this even if other stuff is happening now".
I also tire of Sky's attempts to create news rather than report news, between this and their constant plugging of petitions to get a formal set of rules for GE TV debates.
BBC saying 90% of the conservative party would have rebelled if TM had asked for a long delay
FFS..what idiots. They're NOT GETTING A SHORT DELAY...
Unless, of course, they vote for the MV3...which Bercow now won't let them do.
Corbyn will be PM before long, this can't go on.
Please do not shout. It is unnecessary and with respect it does look as if the EU prefer the short extension as it does not complicate the EU elections. I would suggest it may be wise to see how this evolves over the next few days
Yeh, I thought the EU wanted a delay to be as short as possible. They're as fed up as we are.
In 1985, I went to Wembley to watch Boston United play Wealdstone in the final of the FA Trophy. Just before Wealdstone scored their second and winning goal in a 2 - 1 victory, the ball ran out of play off a Wealdstone player, yet the throw-in was given their way. Surely, we should have a replay?
The referee was biased, the linesman (as they were called then) was wrong, and we were obviously the better team. But when I check the record books, they still won the Cup. Life's so unfair. The referendum has all brought this back to me. You bastards!
If you had spent the day in a law court instead, you would have found that in grown-up real world contexts, error and bias do actually lead to appeals and retrials. It takes an impressive degree of infantility to equate brexit with a kickball match.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
Well said. Sick of leavers threatening that if they don't get their way they might resort to violence. There is more likely to be civil unrest caused by their beloved No-deal
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
Sky have taken leave of their senses. They are fixated on their ocean dive and it is dominating their coverage at the expense of all other news
At this moment of crisis what do they think they are doing.
BBC thankfully are providing the news
It does sort of have the feel of "we planned all this a while back and we're locked into talking about this even if other stuff is happening now".
I also tire of Sky's attempts to create news rather than report news, between this and their constant plugging of petitions to get a formal set of rules for GE TV debates.
In a desperate attempt to appease her headbangers once again, it is just possible that tezza has succeeded in uniting the rest of her cabinet, most of her party, the speaker, the opposition, the EU, the press and probably the public against her.
I’ve been wondering who the public is blaming for the turmoil. I don’t think May has been doing a very good job, but when she asked for a mandate with a bigger majority we weren’t keen on that.
For all the tweets and arguments on here the main thing I hear in the pubs that I visit (all across SW England) is that she should just leave without a deal. Admittedly the closer you get to Bristol the more likely you are to hear it should be re run by people who voted remain.
Eventually a decision will have to be made, and I think patience is wearing thin in the Tory Party with Mays inability to make a decision. They need to come together and agree to the deal, and manufacture a way around the speaker preventing a vote. Or they need a long extension and May needs to resign and the Tories need a leadership election. May is too apologetic by half for the current situation, and I cannot believe I am writing this, but I think Gove is the one who could see it through. He is a much better salesman than May, he would have come back with the WA and said how good it was and what a success it was. I don’t think he could win an election but he could perhaps get the deal done and keep the Tory party together and perhaps that would be enough.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship and reopening the backstop
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
Nicely put and great rhetoric. But most people haven't been paying enough attention to know that Armageddon has been forecast. Their expectations haven't been managed to expect any disruption at all. And they won't necessarily make the link between reduced purchasing power/job availability/public services and Brexit. They will just blame the government.
As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.
One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.
That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
This was explained to me last night “no deal will be fine, so what if there’s disruption. I remember getting butter on the ration book”. Hmm, it wasn’t what I was hoping for voting to leave.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship
He doesn't mean "The" CU though, does he? He means an arrangement like Turkey has with the EU, possibly the worst of all worlds.
Sky have taken leave of their senses. They are fixated on their ocean dive and it is dominating their coverage at the expense of all other news
At this moment of crisis what do they think they are doing.
BBC thankfully are providing the news
That must have been a good planning meeting.
“So we have the opportunity to do this on March 21. Thanks for bringing it, Science Guys. Anyone else got stuff in round then? Not the cup final, is it, Sports Guys? Business looks all quiet. Westminster? Hello, Westminster Guys? Erm.. can someone call an ambulance?”
In a desperate attempt to appease her headbangers once again, it is just possible that tezza has succeeded in uniting the rest of her cabinet, most of her party, the speaker, the opposition, the EU, the press and probably the public against her.
Awesome stuff...
She has united remainers as this takes a referendum off the table. It is evident on here and in the media the complaints are coming mainly from those who want to remain
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Because the desire is not to limit immigration but to control it instead. Quality matters more than quantity.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship
It's an option if you accept things like financial contributions and FOM. On its own, it's a unicorn.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship and reopening the backstop
Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.
And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.
I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.
Bit harsh on Huddersfield fans, too. I know little of football, but even I am aware they are a pretty sporting lot.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship
He doesn't mean "The" CU though, does he? He means an arrangement like Turkey has with the EU, possibly the worst of all worlds.
Corbyn has referred constantly to 'a' customs union, with bells and whistles the EU are unlikely to commit to. It should be considered, at the moment, a unicorn.
Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.
And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.
As a Poker player it looks like all the players are determined to push their chips All In.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
This is possibly the most important moment of the past month. I really don't like Corbyn but he has done b ugger all so far. If he now cranks it up and finally steps in, then it's curtains for Brexit in its current form.
All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.
Unusually, I've read this carefully. This is realistic down-to-Earth stuff. Shades of Lysistrata?? I'd be curious to know how the Brexit vote split between the (two) sexes. There are differences you know.
I've just had a vision of Leavers running about with unfeasibly large members, à la the Beardsley illustrations for Lysistrata.
Comments
"National Portrait Gallery and Sackler Trust halt £1m donation
Fallout from US opioid health crisis reaches London art world"
https://www.ft.com/content/f5b47c02-4a65-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d
Young men march to war in the sunshine with smiles on their faces. They return from war hunched in the rain.
Trying to keep a Cabinet balanced between Remainers and Leavers has been fundamental to May's problems. The Cabinet has been polarised, unable to offer a strong direction to the House. Those MPs who want to Remain have been given ample cover, from within the heart of the Executive.
The PB Crisis Index (PBCX)?
Unless, of course, they vote for the MV3...which Bercow now won't let them do.
Corbyn will be PM before long, this can't go on.
The referee was biased, the linesman (as they were called then) was wrong, and we were obviously the better team. But when I check the record books, they still won the Cup. Life's so unfair. The referendum has all brought this back to me. You bastards!
There may be trouble ahead.
Hmm could we be getting No-deal after all???
At this moment of crisis what do they think they are doing.
BBC thankfully are providing the news
One way or another a decision needs to be made.
Wrong then, wrong now.
Instead of shouting the deal was RUBBISH!!!!! they would have been much wiser to go for Not bad, but needs improvement - but thats the trouble with absolutists, they make the impossible the enemy of the good enough.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
It's by no means certain the EU are going to agree to this short delay just to try and ram her deal through. They may well set conditions or a longer delay.
"I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile"
I would never accuse Ms Cyclefree of venting bile. She wouldn't anyway.
PS If I thought so, I would say so, but I'd still be polite. But as I don't ....
I also tire of Sky's attempts to create news rather than report news, between this and their constant plugging of petitions to get a formal set of rules for GE TV debates.
FFS.
Thank goodness for Sophy Ridge.
Awesome stuff...
For all the tweets and arguments on here the main thing I hear in the pubs that I visit (all across SW England) is that she should just leave without a deal. Admittedly the closer you get to Bristol the more likely you are to hear it should be re run by people who voted remain.
Eventually a decision will have to be made, and I think patience is wearing thin in the Tory Party with Mays inability to make a decision. They need to come together and agree to the deal, and manufacture a way around the speaker preventing a vote. Or they need a long extension and May needs to resign and the Tories need a leadership election. May is too apologetic by half for the current situation, and I cannot believe I am writing this, but I think Gove is the one who could see it through. He is a much better salesman than May, he would have come back with the WA and said how good it was and what a success it was. I don’t think he could win an election but he could perhaps get the deal done and keep the Tory party together and perhaps that would be enough.
I fear you don't understand the emotion a football match can generate.
https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1108297564170997767
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/juncker-may-backstop-eu-customs-union
One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.
That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/19/business/boeing-elaine-chao.html
This was explained to me last night “no deal will be fine, so what if there’s disruption. I remember getting butter on the ration book”. Hmm, it wasn’t what I was hoping for voting to leave.
“So we have the opportunity to do this on March 21. Thanks for bringing it, Science Guys. Anyone else got stuff in round then? Not the cup final, is it, Sports Guys? Business looks all quiet. Westminster? Hello, Westminster Guys? Erm.. can someone call an ambulance?”
May is probably in 10 Downing St right now with a pile of scrunched up balls of paper in the waste basket...
Can an SO24 be filibustered?
Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.
And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.
Remember most Tory MPs voted against any Article 50 extension at all but the Commons voted by a 200 majority to extend Article 50
At least that means we might get a resolution.
All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.