The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship
He doesn't mean "The" CU though, does he? He means an arrangement like Turkey has with the EU, possibly the worst of all worlds.
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship
It's an option if you accept things like financial contributions and FOM. On its own, it's a unicorn.
Customs Union does not require FOM unlike Single Market, more contributions maybe
The headbangers are right. May's deal is a terrible deal. But they are right for the wrong reasons.
May's deal prioritises ending FoM but with no desire by anyone in the Establishment to limit immigration, why bother? It then favours maintaining a free-ish market for goods, where we have a trade deficit with Europe, over services where we run a surplus. It is entirely the wrong way round.
Quite. And FoM will be dispensed with within weeks of the next labour gvt. But the WA is just that, it is not the end point. But it does work on the assumption we want the red lines laid down.
What would it take to get labour support? A permanent customs union is for the next stage not this one, but could the government be persuaded to explore customs union and single market membership and publish the options as part of the next stage?
Permanent CU is another unicorn, from the EU's point of view, it's cherry-picking.
No, Juncker has said permanent Customs Union is an option open to reconsideration in terms of future relationship and reopening the backstop
Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.
And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.
But how.
90% of the conservative party are not remainers nor are a considerably number of labour mps
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
Why should we believe Leavers that say No Deal Brexit will be fine when said Brexiteers said No Deal was just Project Fear?
Because that was before a Remainer came in and sabotaged No Deal. Remainers May and Robbins will be gone from this very shortly.
Yeah, if only we had competent Leavers like DNSR Fox, Davis, Boris, Dominic 'I never knew Calais was this close to the UK' Raab, and Chris Grayling in charge of Brexit.
I'd settle for Gove.
As for Grayling he is the one who helped ensure your beloved Poundshop Gordon Brown became PM. That should have set off some alarm bells beforehand.
As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.
One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.
That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Anyway, this may look like a temporary win for ERG but what it will actually do is harden the HoC remainers who will most likely take control this, or next, week.
And that will be the end of Brexit altogether. This is classic May.
But how.
90% of the conservative party are not remainers nor are a considerably number of labour mps
In a hung parliament 90% of Tory MPs is nowhere near a majority, the Commons voted by 200 to extend Article 50, most Tory MPs voted against extending Article 50
That's still quite possible. But a factual question as I've genuinely lost track. There was a suggestion that the Government would be allowing indicative votes in the next few days. Is that going to happen?
This is possibly the most important moment of the past month. I really don't like Corbyn but he has done b ugger all so far. If he now cranks it up and finally steps in, then it's curtains for Brexit in its current form.
All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.
You are not being realistic. Half of Corbyn's front bench will resign if he seeks a referendum
As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.
One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.
That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
I think this is both an over- and an under-statement. Civil unrest is chiefly caused by young males given an excuse to kick off, and that genie has already been let out of the bottle (the dramatic increase in violent, racist crimes). Oh, and 70-odd leaver pensioners trudging through the drizzle.
That's the overstatement aspect.
The understatement is that it doesn't matter what the ultimate outcome is - we have already precipitated a "sudden earth movement" in what could have instead been a managed relative decline that took place over decades.
How well we contain it depends on the kind of Brexit that occurs; but there will be increasing numbers of poorer, more disenfranchised people with no coherent political leadership, and no sense of hope for improvement. A very dangerous vacuum. That is the long term disaster we have wrought upon ourselves and it will take more than one generation to play out (rather like the post-war consensus itself).
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
That's still quite possible. But a factual question as I've genuinely lost track. There was a suggestion that the Government would be allowing indicative votes in the next few days. Is that going to happen?
This is possibly the most important moment of the past month. I really don't like Corbyn but he has done b ugger all so far. If he now cranks it up and finally steps in, then it's curtains for Brexit in its current form.
All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.
You are not being realistic. Half of Corbyn's front bench will resign if he seeks a referendum
Well that's the Labour Party official position. But that's not what I meant or said. He just needs to take control of it with the EU-HoC. If they go full-bore on the HoC deciding the future of Brexit he will win a majority for that. End of May's deal. Probably end of May too.
BBC saying 90% of the conservative party would have rebelled if TM had asked for a long delay
FFS..what idiots. They're NOT GETTING A SHORT DELAY...
Unless, of course, they vote for the MV3...which Bercow now won't let them do.
Corbyn will be PM before long, this can't go on.
Please do not shout. It is unnecessary and with respect it does look as if the EU prefer the short extension as it does not complicate the EU elections. I would suggest it may be wise to see how this evolves over the next few days
Yeh, I thought the EU wanted a delay to be as short as possible. They're as fed up as we are.
Even countries like Denmark who really really like the UK and don't want to lose their bigger stronger brother in the EU have had enough. A long extension is not going to be on offer because there is zero evidence it could be used for anything other than timewasting. It's getting to the point of No Deal or Revoke being the only two credible options - either will destroy the tories so May might just as well pick Revoke as it will do less damage overall. Perhaps she could do it very publically at the summit and then take a long long holiday far far away.
Unusually, I've read this carefully. This is realistic down-to-Earth stuff. Shades of Lysistrata?? I'd be curious to know how the Brexit vote split between the (two) sexes. There are differences you know.
I've just had a vision of Leavers running about with unfeasibly large members, à la the Beardsley illustrations for Lysistrata.
Wow! I wasn't aware of those. They are fabulous, in a not-to-be-googled-at-work kind of way.
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
You won.
Suck it up.
No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
She should stop appeasing them once we're out. As has been oft-said by Remainers like yourself "we haven't left yet".
This is possibly the most important moment of the past month. I really don't like Corbyn but he has done b ugger all so far. If he now cranks it up and finally steps in, then it's curtains for Brexit in its current form.
All he has to do is swallow his left-wing ideology for a brief moment and unite the opposition to May's deal.
You are not being realistic. Half of Corbyn's front bench will resign if he seeks a referendum
Well that's the Labour Party official position. But that's not what I meant or said. He just needs to take control of it with the EU-HoC. If they go full-bore on the HoC deciding the future of Brexit he will win a majority for that. End of May's deal. Probably end of May too.
Cyclefree clearsighted as usual. I was recently in Tasmania and one of my friends said that looking at Brexit from the EU's perspective the logical decision would be to refuse an extension and enter a period of "no Deal". He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.
Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.
If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?
Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Not remainers: Brexiteers and hardcore leavers who wanted to leave the EU and damn the price, monetary or social.
They're a bunch of fucking winnets.
The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.
"Britain may be about to learn what being a vassal state really means."
Bollocks.
Bollocks in what particular sense?
Fact - at this moment in time the UK has no control over its future economic and security relationships with the EU, and thereby with the rest of the world. We are entirely dependent on the goodwill of 27 other nations, any of whom could deny our elected leader her principle objective.
“Siri - show me what a vassal state looks like.”
The UK is requesting an emergency (temporary) extension to an organisation it wishes to leave, which is no doubt exasperated by it. That is very different to a vassal state which is where a state is dictated to by its superiors.
Brexit means we do have more immediate control over trade, regulation and immigration within the UK, and it also means at the same time that we have less influence within a neighbouring bigger player of which we used to be a member of the same. Sometimes that'll work out in our favour, sometimes it won't, and that's the trade off.
It's not what a vassal state means. Such phrases are sheer journalistic hyperbole, and rather cliched ones at that. And i'm getting rather tired of them.
It is not journalistic hyperbole. It is hyperbole used repeatedly - and apparently intended to be taken seriously - by the head of the ERG, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
Hyperbolic nonsense: yes. But when we are dependant on the decisions of 27 other states to get enough time to pass our own legislation, we are not in control.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.
One feature that did not receive exceptional scrutiny: a new software system intended to prevent stalls.
That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....
Yes, that's new today. Not good for the airline, that plane should have been grounded for inspection the day before the crash.
Dead-head or relief pilots can be very useful in an emergency. When the Qantas A380 had an engine explode a few years ago, there were five pilots in the cockpit, including three Captains - which was a huge factor in a successful resolution to the incident. A regular two-person crew might not have been so lucky.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Not remainers: Brexiteers and hardcore leavers who wanted to leave the EU and damn the price, monetary or social.
They're a bunch of fucking winnets.
The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
You won.
Suck it up.
No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.
Why do you concentrate on the remainer MPs? There is a deal at the table, and the running on debasing that deal has been done by the ERG. If the ERG had accepted that deal, we might actually get a workable Brexit. Instead, they've blocked it at every turn, and given others cover to block it.
If leavers want to look at the cause of this mess, they should look no further than their own actions.
(Remainers share some of the blame, but only a tiny fraction of the burden that leavers have.)
. He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.
I think the EU and UK business know just how utterly disastrous it would be.
As Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said f*ck business, remember. That's the kind of idiot Brexiteer we're contending with here. They have their large offshore funds and don't give a shit about the short to medium term catastrophe that would be inflicted on ordinary people.
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Cyclefree clearsighted as usual. I was recently in Tasmania and one of my friends said that looking at Brexit from the EU's perspective the logical decision would be to refuse an extension and enter a period of "no Deal". He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.
Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.
If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?
Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.
Seems sensible from where we are now. Rip off the bandage and lets see where we are.
One way or another this needs to end. Limbo is not good for anyone.
Cyclefree clearsighted as usual. I was recently in Tasmania and one of my friends said that looking at Brexit from the EU's perspective the logical decision would be to refuse an extension and enter a period of "no Deal". He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.
Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.
If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?
Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.
Sadly, I'd have to agree with him. No deal is looking ever more likely, and we need to prepare for it. It's going to be a dark time, but the possibility of rejoining the EU will be the light at the end of the tunnel.
As regulators at the Federal Aviation Administration reviewed designs for Boeing’s newest passenger jet, they paid extra attention to several features, including the lithium batteries, the pressure fueling system and the inflatable safety slides.
That same software is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving the same jet, the Boeing 737 Max. Authorities around the world are now taking a closer look at the jet’s approval by the F.A.A., a process that relies heavily on Boeing employees to certify the safety of the plane.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....
Yes, that's new today. Not good for the airline, that plane should have been grounded for inspection the day before the crash.
Dead-head or relief pilots can be very useful in an emergency. When the Qantas A380 had an engine explode a few years ago, there were five pilots in the cockpit, including three Captains - which was a huge factor in a successful resolution to the incident. A regular two-person crew might not have been so lucky.
If nothing else, it provides a casting vote on how to react.
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
Another bad advert for the supposed rigours of Oxford, unfortunately, like Hannan.
Unusually, I've read this carefully. This is realistic down-to-Earth stuff. Shades of Lysistrata?? I'd be curious to know how the Brexit vote split between the (two) sexes. There are differences you know.
I've just had a vision of Leavers running about with unfeasibly large members, à la the Beardsley illustrations for Lysistrata.
Wow! I wasn't aware of those. They are fabulous, in a not-to-be-googled-at-work kind of way.
Yeah, sorry, I should probably have included a nsfw.
Cyclefree clearsighted as usual. I was recently in Tasmania and one of my friends said that looking at Brexit from the EU's perspective the logical decision would be to refuse an extension and enter a period of "no Deal". He thought it would take that experience for people to understand just how traumatic the severance would be.
Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.
If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?
Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.
Sadly, I'd have to agree with him. No deal is looking ever more likely, and we need to prepare for it. It's going to be a dark time, but the possibility of rejoining the EU will be the light at the end of the tunnel.
I am not so sanguine. A painful no deal exit is quite likely to be followed by a lengthy sulk.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Not remainers: Brexiteers and hardcore leavers who wanted to leave the EU and damn the price, monetary or social.
They're a bunch of fucking winnets.
The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.
I wish you had not made me google that.
The Cabinet should act now. Remove May and instal Hague as caretaker. Enough now.
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
There is a very vivid description in PPRUNE of the challenges faced after take off facing the Lion & Ethiopian pilots:
Second: For all the arm-chair Monday morning QB's who are saying: "Oh, they should have recognized it immediately and disconnected the trim:"
(1) Just after takeoff there is a lot going on with trim, power, configuration changes, and as noted above, the darn speed trim is always moving that trim wheel in seemingly random directions to the point that experienced NG pilots would treat its movement as background noise and normal ops. Movement of the trim wheel in awkward amounts and directions would not immediately trigger a memory item response of disconnecting the servos. No way.
(2) The pilots could very reasonably not have noticed the stab trim movement. Movement of the stab trim on the 737 is indicated by very loud clacking as the wheel rotates. On the -200 it was almost shockingly loud. On the NG, much less so. HOWEVER, the 737 cockpit is NOISY. It's one reason I am happy to not be flying it any more. The ergonomics are ridiculous. Especially at high speeds at low altitudes. With the wind noise, they may not have heard the trim wheel moving. The only other way to know it was moving would be yoke feel and to actually look at the trim setting on the center pedestal, which requires looking down and away from the windows and the instruments in a 'leans'-inducing head move. On the 717, for example, Ms. Douglas chimes in with an audible "Stablizer Motion" warning. There is no such indication on the 737.
(3) The fact that they were at high power and high speed tells me the stick shaker was activated. With that massive vibrator between your legs, alternating blue sky and brown out the window, your eye balls bouncing up and down in their sockets as the plane lurches up and down in positive and negative G's, it would have been a miracle if one of the pilots calmly reached down, flicked off the stab servo cutout switches, folded out the trim handle, and started grinding the wheel in the direction of normalcy. These pilots said over the radio that they had "unreliable airspeed". So they did not even know which instruments to rest their eyes on for reliable info. Their eyes were all over the cockpit looking for reliable info, the plane is all over the place like a wild boar in a blanket not behaving in any rational way.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
You won.
Suck it up.
No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.
Why do you concentrate on the remainer MPs? There is a deal at the table, and the running on debasing that deal has been done by the ERG. If the ERG had accepted that deal, we might actually get a workable Brexit. Instead, they've blocked it at every turn, and given others cover to block it.
If leavers want to look at the cause of this mess, they should look no further than their own actions.
(Remainers share some of the blame, but only a tiny fraction of the burden that leavers have.)
The ERG are being entirely logical from where they stand. There are two feasible states of Brexit at this point: Brexit with a deal, Brexit without a deal.
Apart from Grieve and a few other headbangers the Tories fall under one category or another. May, Gove etc back Brexit with a deal. Mogg, Johnson etc back Brexit without a deal.
What I find contemptible is those supposedly against no deal who also go against the deal. That is contemptible. If you want to avoid no deal then take the deal. If you're OK with no deal then oppose the deal.
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
What? Are you mad?
No. What is your point?
A statement of fact that in the modern world it only requires the motivation of a small number of people to create unrest, become a “threat of terrorism” can only happen in a mind that is not entirely balanced.
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
Another bad advert for the supposed rigours of Oxford, unfortunately, like Hannan.
Hang on, she got a 2:2
Hannan is an ass but he's very bright. Not fair to compare the two at all.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Not remainers: Brexiteers and hardcore leavers who wanted to leave the EU and damn the price, monetary or social.
They're a bunch of fucking winnets.
The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.
I wish you had not made me google that.
The Cabinet should act now. Remove May and instal Hague as caretaker. Enough now.
Problem is the cabinet are split but in the wider party leave dominates hence TM decision to ask for a short extension
No idea where this ends but the deal has always been the way out, like it or not
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.
No, no, no, no, no.
You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.
I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
Another bad advert for the supposed rigours of Oxford, unfortunately, like Hannan.
Hang on, she got a 2:2
Hannan is an ass but he's very bright. Not fair to compare the two at all.
Not just bright, he got a double first apparently ;-)
I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.
The irony is that 3 years ago I was tending towards Leave for many of the same reasons as @rcs1000. When Leave won, contrary to my expectations, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and expected, naively I realise, that they had a plan. It is the behaviour of Leavers over the last two and a half years which has turned me into a Remainer.
Yes because Parliament has been so decisive so far. What will they do have indicative votes on every date for the next two years, then reject them all and ask the Eu to agree to an exit date on the first of Remainuary and ask some philosophers to propose a way of thinking our way out of the EU
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
Those 17.4 million will be even more put out by the consequences of a no deal Brexit. And they won't blame themselves.
No deal brexit will not be the Armageddon that’s been claimed . There will be some short term disruption but the uk economy will adapt and become stronger over the medium long term . It will be so funny seeing the excuses that will come out when the fallout isn’t as bad as claimed from WTO brexit and we make it work to our advantage .
Why should we believe Leavers that say No Deal Brexit will be fine when said Brexiteers said No Deal was just Project Fear?
Because that was before a Remainer came in and sabotaged No Deal. Remainers May and Robbins will be gone from this very shortly.
Yeah, if only we had competent Leavers like DNSR Fox, Davis, Boris, Dominic 'I never knew Calais was this close to the UK' Raab, and Chris Grayling in charge of Brexit.
Exactly. Because no-one can possibly prove it either way leavers who dismiss the whole sorry mess by telling us it would have been fine with a leaver in charge are really really beginning to p*ss me off. It's the sort of delusional attitude that led us to where we are now. There is zero indication that any of the leading leaders would have been anything but useless. Gove might have done OK but would certainly have been reclassified as an enemy of the people months ago.
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
When will she stop appeasing these nutters? Whatever she does isn't enough. Never ever. Not a single time. We have gone from we don't want to be in the SM to we don't care if every supermarket and SME in Britain is shuttered.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
Another bad advert for the supposed rigours of Oxford, unfortunately, like Hannan.
Hang on, she got a 2:2
Hannan is an ass but he's very bright. Not fair to compare the two at all.
Not just bright, he got a double first apparently ;-)
To be fair to him, that means a distinction in prelims or a first in mods (1st year) and a first in finals. It's not an outrageous claim. What is fairly gauche is announcing the fact to the world.
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.
No, no, no, no, no.
You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.
I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.
I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.
Then you will have no objection to this Parliament finding ways to hold this government to account when it wilfully disregards the instructions given to it.
I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.
The irony is that 3 years ago I was tending towards Leave for many of the same reasons as @rcs1000. When Leave won, contrary to my expectations, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and expected, naively I realise, that they had a plan. It is the behaviour of Leavers over the last two and a half years which has turned me into a Remainer.
and you think remainers have a plan for remaining ?
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
MP's currently have a favorability rating of 5%, so the answer is plain.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.
The irony is that 3 years ago I was tending towards Leave for many of the same reasons as @rcs1000. When Leave won, contrary to my expectations, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and expected, naively I realise, that they had a plan. It is the behaviour of Leavers over the last two and a half years which has turned me into a Remainer.
It was obvious at the time they had no plan. I mean there was Vote Leave and Leave.EU for a start. Cameron designed the referendum so that they didn’t need one, and because it was status quo versus ethereal concept we would all dutifully vote for remain. I know I voted for remain as I didn’t think the short term financial uncertainty was worth the trouble.
The other thing about Alison's SO24 is that the timing is brilliant for helping to undermine TM's attempt to con the EU.
There may well be a majority in the HOC for a short delay and most certainly in the Country
Try telling the electorate we are looking at a delay of two years and we have to hold EU elections in May (which by the way have to be legislated for by the HOC by the 21st April) and see the response you will receive
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
MP's currently have a favorability rating of 5%, so the answer is plain.
Yes, the nihilism of Leavers has been mortally successful.
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.
No, no, no, no, no.
You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.
I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.
I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.
Then you will have no objection to this Parliament finding ways to hold this government to account when it wilfully disregards the instructions given to it.
Since the government is trying to find ways to honour the instruction given to it by the people and this Parliament is not, yes I do object.
Remainers will have done something the IRA could never have achieved in their wildest dreams: the debasing of British democracy.
Fuck off. Please, just fuck off.
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
You won.
Suck it up.
No but if it doesn't happen because Remainer MPs in Parliament refuse to honour it then that would be the fault of Remainers.
Why do you concentrate on the remainer MPs? There is a deal at the table, and the running on debasing that deal has been done by the ERG. If the ERG had accepted that deal, we might actually get a workable Brexit. Instead, they've blocked it at every turn, and given others cover to block it.
If leavers want to look at the cause of this mess, they should look no further than their own actions.
(Remainers share some of the blame, but only a tiny fraction of the burden that leavers have.)
The ERG are being entirely logical from where they stand. There are two feasible states of Brexit at this point: Brexit with a deal, Brexit without a deal.
Apart from Grieve and a few other headbangers the Tories fall under one category or another. May, Gove etc back Brexit with a deal. Mogg, Johnson etc back Brexit without a deal.
What I find contemptible is those supposedly against no deal who also go against the deal. That is contemptible. If you want to avoid no deal then take the deal. If you're OK with no deal then oppose the deal.
That's illogical, as there's more feasible end-states than Brexit: extension or revoke being two (and an extension could still end in revoke). The hardcore Brexiteers are taking a massive gamble with their vision, and with the future of the country.
The contemptible ones are the no-dealers. I mean, just look at them and ask yourself how much the likes of Johnson and JRM will be hurt by it: in fact, JRM might even make money out of it.
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
MP's currently have a favorability rating of 5%, so the answer is plain.
Yes, the nihilism of Leavers has been mortally successful.
I rather think MPs have brought this on themselves
Starting with the expenses scandal 10 years ago its been all downhill ever since
When the government so wilfully disregards its own mandate and even its own word, Parliament must find a way to find its voice.
The government's mandate is to leave the EU. Parliament is the one wilfully disregarding that.
Parliament instructed it to seek a long delay if the meaningful vote were not passed by now. The Deputy Prime Minister averred the same last week. Or do Leavers now hold Parliament in contempt along with every other civic institution?
Don't know about Leavers in general but I do yes. The way Parliament has acted in recent months has been contemptible.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
Thus it ends. Those seeking Parliamentary sovereignty originally now seek to destroy it.
No, no, no, no, no.
You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.
I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.
I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.
Then you will have no objection to this Parliament finding ways to hold this government to account when it wilfully disregards the instructions given to it.
Since the government is trying to find ways to honour the instruction given to it by the people and this Parliament is not, yes I do object.
So you do want the government to ignore Parliament? So you do want to destroy Parliamentary sovereignty?
Make your mind up. The principle is not contingent on whether you like Parliament’s instructions.
I still don't see what advantage an extension is to anyone but those who have never accepted the referendum result and have been working to delay it as long as possible. For them it is the longer the better, and the more uncertainty the better.
I've now doubt the EU is annoyed with the UK. If nothing else, it will lose a large source of income which will need to be replaced. I don't see a long queue of volunteers to replace it.
With the EU, you should always use the maxim … "It's not personal, it's business." They aren't our enemies, but neither are they our bosom buddies unless our interests coincide. These interests do coincide at times, but not always.
Unfortunately, for some politicians, the union is a political project, a statement of their projections for the future. yet, they get exceedingly annoyed with others who don't share their wishes. Like fans of a football team, they thus see few of the faults. I'm sure Huddersfield fans and Fulham fans will follow their team just as strongly when they are relegated this season, and dislike the successful teams. Discovering that half of the Fulham electorate support Manchester United goes down like a cup of cold sick, but it is reality.
As you can see, this criticism apples to both sides. but trying to re-rum the referendum will solve nothing. Getting a few people together to march in support to show you really, really, like your side doesn't prove anything. It reminds me of the old football chant in the home end. "Stand up, stand up, if you like City." It makes them feel better but doesn't do anything.
Vent your bile by all means, but isn't time some of you accepted the nation's democratic decision?.
I think it is wrong and discourteous to accuse cyclefree of "venting bile", and anyway you are strawmanning. There are plenty of people who accepted the referendum result and gave Leave more than a fair chance to implement it, and now consider that Leave has failed. You say "those who have *never* accepted the referendum result" because you think that gives you a get out of jail free card in that you can entirely ignore them as howwid anti-democrats. It doesn't work.
The irony is that 3 years ago I was tending towards Leave for many of the same reasons as @rcs1000. When Leave won, contrary to my expectations, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and expected, naively I realise, that they had a plan. It is the behaviour of Leavers over the last two and a half years which has turned me into a Remainer.
and you think remainers have a plan for remaining ?
No. But that is why we need a Pause while we think about what our European strategy should be - as I have repeatedly bored on in comments below the line and headers above it.
The Tories need a caretaker leader with some authority that does not stem from a Brexit faction . I don’t know if it would work in 2019, but Hague is probably best placed to rise above all factions. In the HoC they should go for Clarke, but obviously won’t. Gove is just about viable, maybe.
Yes ignoring 17.4 million voters who were told this vote is going to be final if we vote leave we leave - is going to do wonders for our cohesive society . Civil unrest here we come
You need to ask yourself by whom they were told that, and whether that person actually has the power to unilaterally amend a statute. As for the "civil unrest" threat, when I look at Farage's attempt to organise a march, I find myself able to respond to the threat of him organising an armed insurrection with a massive calm. Or to put it another way, you and whose army?
In an era of readily available knowledge and motivation, it doesn’t require an army to bring civil unrest. A handful of motivated individuals can do immense harm.
Difficult to read that as anything other than a threat of terrorism. Again, if we could contain the IRA and militant Islam, I don't think we have much to fear from the provisional Brexit Mean's Brexit Army.
What? Are you mad?
No. What is your point?
A statement of fact that in the modern world it only requires the motivation of a small number of people to create unrest, become a “threat of terrorism” can only happen in a mind that is not entirely balanced.
It's actually a reasonable assumption where the potential of a small number of people to cause damage is put forward as an alternative to war. But anyway, civilly disobedient Nigel frightens me exactly as much as warrior Nigel or terrorist Nigel.
Comments
Huddersfield fans are far more sporting than average, and to a lesser extent so are Fulham fans. But they are both likely to be relegated this season.
90% of the conservative party are not remainers nor are a considerably number of labour mps
As for Grayling he is the one who helped ensure your beloved Poundshop Gordon Brown became PM. That should have set off some alarm bells beforehand.
FFS
She announced a short delay to appease the headbangers and is now assessing the backlash from EVERYONE else...
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/03/20/world/one-day-deadly-crash-off-duty-pilot-saved-lion-air-737-max-malfunctioning-flight-control-system/
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jump seat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 189 aboard.
The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster, while others lost control of their planes and crashed. The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s Nov. 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.
The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the sources, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize....
That's the overstatement aspect.
The understatement is that it doesn't matter what the ultimate outcome is - we have already precipitated a "sudden earth movement" in what could have instead been a managed relative decline that took place over decades.
How well we contain it depends on the kind of Brexit that occurs; but there will be increasing numbers of poorer, more disenfranchised people with no coherent political leadership, and no sense of hope for improvement. A very dangerous vacuum. That is the long term disaster we have wrought upon ourselves and it will take more than one generation to play out (rather like the post-war consensus itself).
Brexit is the project that has doomed the country. It was not, is not, will never be the fault of those who warned against it, campaigned against it, or voted against it.
You won.
Suck it up.
Why does this have to be so difficult?
That would be breaking the rules.
He'll finally become Prime Minister.
She learns nothing.
How on earth did she pass exams and get into Oxford?
Then in 3 months or a year or whatever we could all look again at the merits or otherwise of EU membership.
If as the ERG say it's all sunny uplands and great world trade, all good. If not, perhaps we return to the EU sadder but wiser, if they will have us after all this hassle. Maybe we need to go through this experience for its educational value?
Oh and by the way, as to favoured trade deals with Australia, "Good luck with that!" was what he said.
They're a bunch of fucking winnets.
The're also utterly incapable of taking responsibility for their actions.
Hyperbolic nonsense: yes. But when we are dependant on the decisions of 27 other states to get enough time to pass our own legislation, we are not in control.
Dead-head or relief pilots can be very useful in an emergency. When the Qantas A380 had an engine explode a few years ago, there were five pilots in the cockpit, including three Captains - which was a huge factor in a successful resolution to the incident. A regular two-person crew might not have been so lucky.
"SEND HELP PLS"
and a smudge at the bottom
(Cue people telling me that he is. In which case, we really are in a Fuhrerbunker situation.)
If leavers want to look at the cause of this mess, they should look no further than their own actions.
(Remainers share some of the blame, but only a tiny fraction of the burden that leavers have.)
As Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said f*ck business, remember. That's the kind of idiot Brexiteer we're contending with here. They have their large offshore funds and don't give a shit about the short to medium term catastrophe that would be inflicted on ordinary people.
One way or another this needs to end. Limbo is not good for anyone.
If Parliament wants to take no deal off the table it can back the deal. If it doesn't we can exit without a deal. Time to make a bloody choice.
A painful no deal exit is quite likely to be followed by a lengthy sulk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election#Pre-campaign_period
Meanwhile, the Australian Labour Party have a fairly significant lead ahead of the election this year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_Australian_federal_election#Voting_intention
Second: For all the arm-chair Monday morning QB's who are saying: "Oh, they should have recognized it immediately and disconnected the trim:"
(1) Just after takeoff there is a lot going on with trim, power, configuration changes, and as noted above, the darn speed trim is always moving that trim wheel in seemingly random directions to the point that experienced NG pilots would treat its movement as background noise and normal ops. Movement of the trim wheel in awkward amounts and directions would not immediately trigger a memory item response of disconnecting the servos. No way.
(2) The pilots could very reasonably not have noticed the stab trim movement. Movement of the stab trim on the 737 is indicated by very loud clacking as the wheel rotates. On the -200 it was almost shockingly loud. On the NG, much less so. HOWEVER, the 737 cockpit is NOISY. It's one reason I am happy to not be flying it any more. The ergonomics are ridiculous. Especially at high speeds at low altitudes. With the wind noise, they may not have heard the trim wheel moving. The only other way to know it was moving would be yoke feel and to actually look at the trim setting on the center pedestal, which requires looking down and away from the windows and the instruments in a 'leans'-inducing head move. On the 717, for example, Ms. Douglas chimes in with an audible "Stablizer Motion" warning. There is no such indication on the 737.
(3) The fact that they were at high power and high speed tells me the stick shaker was activated. With that massive vibrator between your legs, alternating blue sky and brown out the window, your eye balls bouncing up and down in their sockets as the plane lurches up and down in positive and negative G's, it would have been a miracle if one of the pilots calmly reached down, flicked off the stab servo cutout switches, folded out the trim handle, and started grinding the wheel in the direction of normalcy. These pilots said over the radio that they had "unreliable airspeed". So they did not even know which instruments to rest their eyes on for reliable info. Their eyes were all over the cockpit looking for reliable info, the plane is all over the place like a wild boar in a blanket not behaving in any rational way.
https://www.pprune.org/10423122-post2021.html
The extra pair of eyes may easily have saved the day.
Apart from Grieve and a few other headbangers the Tories fall under one category or another. May, Gove etc back Brexit with a deal. Mogg, Johnson etc back Brexit without a deal.
What I find contemptible is those supposedly against no deal who also go against the deal. That is contemptible. If you want to avoid no deal then take the deal. If you're OK with no deal then oppose the deal.
Hannan is an ass but he's very bright. Not fair to compare the two at all.
No idea where this ends but the deal has always been the way out, like it or not
You misunderstood what we sought. I don't seek Parliamentary sovereignty because I think this current crop of MPs is perfect.
I seek Parliamentary sovereignty because if ever our current crop of MPs are bad then we can kick the bastards out at the next election.
I seek sovereignty for the people at elections.
There is a certain piquancy to #Brexit being scuppered by Parliamentary Sovereignty...
https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1108293072390098944
Try telling the electorate we are looking at a delay of two years and we have to hold EU elections in May (which by the way have to be legislated for by the HOC by the 21st April) and see the response you will receive
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1108305511269761025
The contemptible ones are the no-dealers. I mean, just look at them and ask yourself how much the likes of Johnson and JRM will be hurt by it: in fact, JRM might even make money out of it.
Starting with the expenses scandal 10 years ago its been all downhill ever since
Make your mind up. The principle is not contingent on whether you like Parliament’s instructions.