politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting opinion moves sharply against TMay’s chances of gettin
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An AV election.Anorak said:I think this country needs to move past things like this.
https://twitter.com/AmIRightSir/status/11055140330866892800 -
Mr. Gin, 7pm, I think.0
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Honestly, if I was in Number 10, I'd be calling up Tom Watson and asking him what it would take to get his wing of the Labour party to abstain tonight. However many billions in bribes for their local areas etc...0
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I'm as socially-liberal as the next person, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to be aware of every single racist term/trope in the world. That goes for Tories like Amber Rudd and Michael Fabricant (who retweeted that Islamophobic picture of Sadiq Khan having sex with a pig) too; in both cases, they said that they weren't aware that what they were saying/supporting was racist in advance, and they both apologised immdiately when it was pointed out to them. IMO, benefit of the doubt should be given, rather than just automatically assuming anyone who said something offensive has bad intentions.DavidL said:
Like @SeanF my first instinct was that it was that it was focused on Masons rather than Jews although it was clear that at least some of the Masons had Jewish characteristics. It used imagery that I have only seen in those absurd Dan Brown books and the rather better ones by Umberto Eco.
I did not find it as obvious as @SeanT thinks it is but then I have not spent the last 40 years of my life obsessing about the anti-Zionist cause. I think Corbyn has rather less excuse for not picking up on it.
Even the most tolerant, "anti-racist" person has some ignorance or blind spots. The responsibility starts when they've been made aware that they've fucked up, it's on them to make amends and do better in future - and, to be fair, this is where Corbyn is deserving of criticism, because he's still not really acknowledged that he was ignorant of certain aspects of anti-semitism in the past, or properly made amends for it.0 -
Don't be daft. One is acceptable. One isn't.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
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Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
It might well have been true at that point, since the working assumption was 'surely May is not so stupid as to not get Cox's take before announcing a new deal had been done?', and while agreement was not certain it looked a decent shout as a result, and therefore anyone panicking would either be a no deal or remain fanatic._Anazina_ said:
"Remainers worried about a deal in the air"TGOHF said:
Not me.TheScreamingEagles said:How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
I also didn't want May after Cameron left nor in December.
She needs to go whatever happens - this is a terrible failure.
TGOHF last night – not a post that has aged well.0 -
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.0 -
Maybe something to do with the absence of 100's of years of slavery and abuse. Just a thought. Your use of 'orientals' sounds a bit off to my ears, too.kinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?0 -
I love the fact that David Davis - consummate dealmaker, the man who assured us the EU would fold at the last minute - is going to fold and vote for May’s deal. That so sums him up.0
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Pah, that's nothing on when there was the one with 7 candidates and only 3 voters. All 3 voted the same way, incidentally, and for the one candidate who, iirc, did not submit a statement even.Anorak said:I think this country needs to move past things like this.
https://twitter.com/AmIRightSir/status/1105514033086689280
It is actually funny that 20 years on from a temporary arrangement there's barely even serious talk of what to do with the place.0 -
And I suppose the first four letters of Pakistani is just an abbreviation, so nothing to worry about.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
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Which means a result about 7.15 surely?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Gin, 7pm, I think.
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I don't find it a struggle. I wouldn't use the term 'coloured' myself, although no doubt there are other Guardianista traps I'd fall into. I'm just puzzled (a) as to who decided on these bizarre rules and why, and (b) how on earth anyone could claim that an accidental misspeak of using a somewhat old-fashioned term is somehow evidence of racism or is in any way even remotely comparable to retweeting with approval a Nazi-style anti-semitic cartoon._Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.0 -
The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. Sounds pants, but has a teacher stabbed in the neck with scissors inside the first 10 minutes._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
20 years ago, I made that mistake in polite company...there was audible grasps and was informed very strongly the term I was looking for was Asian.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.0 -
If May has 240 she would need something like 166 abstentions to win. That looks....a bit of a stretch.MaxPB said:Honestly, if I was in Number 10, I'd be calling up Tom Watson and asking him what it would take to get his wing of the Labour party to abstain tonight. However many billions in bribes for their local areas etc...
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He could read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book). I've only ever read snippets myself.Anorak said:
Maybe something to do with the absence of 100's of years of slavery and abuse. Just a thought. Your use of 'orientals' sounds a bit off to my ears, too.kinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?0 -
I've got half-Thai grandchildren. Their skin isn't the sort of off-pink to weather-beaten sort of brown I am but they are very definitely not black.0
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It's surprisingly messed up, which is cool.Anorak said:
The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. Sounds pants, but has a teacher stabbed in the neck with scissors inside the first 10 minutes._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
(a) The same people who made 'c*nt' worse that 'twat' which is worse than 'fanny'. You can call an idiot any one of the three but the level of offence will vary wildly.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't find it a struggle. I wouldn't use the term 'coloured' myself, although no doubt there are other Guardianista traps I'd fall into. I'm just puzzled (a) as to who decided on these bizarre rules and why, and (b) how on earth anyone could claim that an accidental misspeak of using a somewhat old-fashioned term is somehow evidence of racism or is in any way even remotely comparable to retweeting with approval a Nazi-style anti-semitic cartoon._Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
(b) A fair and valid point, and of course partisan axes were waiting to be ground. Amber should still have known better.0 -
If you haven't done Mindhunters, then see that. Series 2 is out "first half of 2019", and I am really looking forward to it._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
The Last Kingdom, Better Call Saul._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
Definitely recommend Mindhunters....MarqueeMark said:
If you haven't done Mindhunters, then see that. Series 2 is out "first half of 2019", and I am really looking forward to it._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
williamglenn said:
What, it's just a journalist arguing with what is obviously a satirical parody twitter account. What's that? It's real?!0 -
Confusingly "asian" in the USA means of (normally Chinese decent) or other east asian/(peoples posessing an epicanthic fold), whereas in the UK it almost always means people from the Indian subcontinent.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.0 -
Some better CVs than before.TheScreamingEagles said:
An AV election.Anorak said:I think this country needs to move past things like this.
https://twitter.com/AmIRightSir/status/11055140330866892800 -
Jim Fitpatrick voting against. The Labour cavalry riding to the rescue appears to have turned tail...0
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The number of abstentions is just as interesting.Richard_Nabavi said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1105513486107529218
Personally I think that's an underestimate based on what we already know. I agree with @Sandpit that it's looking like a total 240ish Ayes.
Especially if they were on the Labour side.0 -
Will Quince is switching to support the WA, and I believe, so will Graham Brady.0
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Perhaps.kle4 said:
It might well have been true at that point, since the working assumption was 'surely May is not so stupid as to not get Cox's take before announcing a new deal had been done?', and while agreement was not certain it looked a decent shout as a result, and therefore anyone panicking would either be a no deal or remain fanatic._Anazina_ said:
"Remainers worried about a deal in the air"TGOHF said:
Not me.TheScreamingEagles said:How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
I also didn't want May after Cameron left nor in December.
She needs to go whatever happens - this is a terrible failure.
TGOHF last night – not a post that has aged well.
More likely it was sheer hubris.0 -
Indeed. I put the word in a Tom Knox thriller, many years ago, and I got an astonished and near-furious reaction from my American editors. I had to explain that it was an innocent word for Brits.FrancisUrquhart said:
20 years ago, I made that mistake in polite company...there was audience grasps and was informed very strongly the term I was looking for was Asian.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
The dictionary of acceptable race-terms is a ludicrous minefield in which anyone can lose a leg. I therefore have sympathy for someone like Rudd.
Not recognizing anti-Semitic tropes and memes which have been around for a hundred years is far less understandable or forgiveable. We are all heirs to the Holocaust, it happened in the lifetimes of our parents and it happened in Europe.0 -
And me.FrancisUrquhart said:
Definitely recommend Mindhunters....MarqueeMark said:
If you haven't done Mindhunters, then see that. Series 2 is out "first half of 2019", and I am really looking forward to it._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
Try Secret City._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
It’s an Australian political drama set in Canberra , there’s two series . It’s excellent . Also Mindhunter, that’s from the USA and is about the beginnings of psychological profiling in the FBI, it’s a bit slow to begin with but well worth sticking with .0 -
Thanks Mark, will take a look!MarqueeMark said:
If you haven't done Mindhunters, then see that. Series 2 is out "first half of 2019", and I am really looking forward to it._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.0 -
Sean_F said:
The Last Kingdom, Better Call Saul._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
I haven't watched either of those either – thanks.0 -
Brady is an interesting one. Is that a quiet nod from the '22?Sean_F said:Will Quince is switching to support the WA, and I believe, so will Graham Brady.
0 -
I don't think there will be many abstentions, certainly not enough to make a material difference.MarqueeMark said:
The number of abstentions is just as interesting.Richard_Nabavi said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1105513486107529218
Personally I think that's an underestimate based on what we already know. I agree with @Sandpit that it's looking like a total 240ish Ayes.
Especially if they were on the Labour side.0 -
There's a thing - in the US the term 'Asian' is used differently to how it is used in the UK.FrancisUrquhart said:
20 years ago, I made that mistake in polite company...there was audible grasps and was informed very strongly the term I was looking for was Asian.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Edit - others have made this point already.
Anyway, I'll wait until Wor Lass gets home to discover what 'The Asian Community' thinks about tonight's vote.0 -
Similar in Canada. Asians are from Thailand eastwards. Subcontinent are "South Asians".Philip_Thompson said:
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
I don't think they ever mounted their horses. For all the talk ever since the deal was announced of potential Labour votes or abstentions a bare handful have ever been named and they usually strenuously deny they will do it, so I think realistically it is all just a lot of talk from the hopeful that they might in any serious numbers do so.dixiedean said:Jim Fitpatrick voting against. The Labour cavalry riding to the rescue appears to have turned tail...
0 -
That's because until fairly recently there were very few immigrants from the Indian subcontinent in the US, but lots from eastern Asia, mostly China and Japan. The reverse is true in the UK.Pulpstar said:
Confusingly "asian" in the USA means of (normally Chinese decent) or other east asian/(peoples posessing an epicanthic fold), whereas in the UK it almost always means people from the Indian subcontinent.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.0 -
And I guess in USA too in relation to what SeanT just wrote.dixiedean said:
Similar in Canada. Asians are from Thailand eastwards. Subcontinent are "South Asians".Philip_Thompson said:
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
_Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
I don’t struggle. I know all the right words. I knew - see below - that you can’t say “orientals” in America. I am just fascinated, as a writer, by the mentality that drives this ever-changing linguistic rule book.0 -
Well sure, but if she can get to 260 than she only needs 146 abstentions to win! Look on the brightsideDavidL said:
If May has 240 she would need something like 166 abstentions to win. That looks....a bit of a stretch.MaxPB said:Honestly, if I was in Number 10, I'd be calling up Tom Watson and asking him what it would take to get his wing of the Labour party to abstain tonight. However many billions in bribes for their local areas etc...
0 -
A good (if a little long) read on "The Awokening"SeanT said:
Indeed. I put the word in a Tom Knox thriller, many years ago, and I got an astonished and near-furious reaction from my American editors. I had to explain that it was an innocent word for Brits.FrancisUrquhart said:
20 years ago, I made that mistake in polite company...there was audience grasps and was informed very strongly the term I was looking for was Asian.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
The dictionary of acceptable race-terms is a ludicrous minefield in which anyone can lose a leg. I therefore have sympathy for someone like Rudd.
Not recognizing anti-Semitic tropes and memes which have been around for a hundred years is far less understandable or forgiveable. We are all heirs to the Holocaust, it happened in the lifetimes of our parents and it happened in Europe.
https://quillette.com/2018/09/21/the-preachers-of-the-great-awokening/
tl:dr "The danger is that the status desires of these preachers will eclipse their moral concerns.
...
"And this will ultimately lead to a situation in which social justice activists pay more attention to the pronouns on a box of cereal than to the sufferings of the less fortunate."0 -
Fair enough. Regarding the rules being bizarre, I think lots of politeness in the English language is a matter of nuance. For example, if I told my employee her work was rather good, she would be chuffed. If I told her it was fairly good, she might be upset. There is not much logic there – it is just a matter of usage, and inferred meaning.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't find it a struggle. I wouldn't use the term 'coloured' myself, although no doubt there are other Guardianista traps I'd fall into. I'm just puzzled (a) as to who decided on these bizarre rules and why, and (b) how on earth anyone could claim that an accidental misspeak of using a somewhat old-fashioned term is somehow evidence of racism or is in any way even remotely comparable to retweeting with approval a Nazi-style anti-semitic cartoon._Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.0 -
It's not an unreasonable concern that it could happen - the use of a word by the ignorant is wrong, but not as bad as actual horrid action, but let us not, I hope, be in a situation where we do not care about words at all.Sandpit said:
A good (if a little long) read on "The Awokening"SeanT said:
Indeed. I put the word in a Tom Knox thriller, many years ago, and I got an astonished and near-furious reaction from my American editors. I had to explain that it was an innocent word for Brits.FrancisUrquhart said:
20 years ago, I made that mistake in polite company...there was audience grasps and was informed very strongly the term I was looking for was Asian.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
The dictionary of acceptable race-terms is a ludicrous minefield in which anyone can lose a leg. I therefore have sympathy for someone like Rudd.
Not recognizing anti-Semitic tropes and memes which have been around for a hundred years is far less understandable or forgiveable. We are all heirs to the Holocaust, it happened in the lifetimes of our parents and it happened in Europe.
https://quillette.com/2018/09/21/the-preachers-of-the-great-awokening/
tl:dr "The danger is that the status desires of these preachers will eclipse their moral concerns.
...
"And this will ultimately lead to a situation in which social justice activists pay more attention to the pronouns on a box of cereal than to the sufferings of the less fortunate."0 -
Indeed, it's pretty indefensible not to vote meaningfully on one of the most important divisions of your career.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think there will be many abstentions, certainly not enough to make a material difference.MarqueeMark said:
The number of abstentions is just as interesting.Richard_Nabavi said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1105513486107529218
Personally I think that's an underestimate based on what we already know. I agree with @Sandpit that it's looking like a total 240ish Ayes.
Especially if they were on the Labour side.
Boris up now.0 -
.0
-
Yes, okay, and thanks for the tip on orientals. You may very possibly have saved my bacon there – I had no idea it was regarded that way (although I might not have tended to use it – I say East Asian generally) – and have lots of American clients.SeanT said:_Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
I don’t struggle. I know all the right words. I knew - see below - that you can’t say “orientals” in America. I am just fascinated, as a writer, by the mentality that drives this ever-changing linguistic rule book.
0 -
I can't imagine any non-gammon using the term orientals here either.SeanT said:_Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
I don’t struggle. I know all the right words. I knew - see below - that you can’t say “orientals” in America. I am just fascinated, as a writer, by the mentality that drives this ever-changing linguistic rule book.0 -
If he says he's voting for it I will be astonished beyond measure. Cannot see him voting for something that will lose unless he thinks the massed ranks of the Tory faithful are behind it, which they aren't.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, it's pretty indefensible not to vote meaningfully on one of the most important divisions of your career.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think there will be many abstentions, certainly not enough to make a material difference.MarqueeMark said:
The number of abstentions is just as interesting.Richard_Nabavi said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1105513486107529218
Personally I think that's an underestimate based on what we already know. I agree with @Sandpit that it's looking like a total 240ish Ayes.
Especially if they were on the Labour side.
Boris up now.
I, of course, entirely discount the possibility something other than personal tactical considerations are affecting his decision.0 -
My late uncle always made this point when discussing the cricket with me. "Aussie is alright, how is Paki any different?"SandyRentool said:
And I suppose the first four letters of Pakistani is just an abbreviation, so nothing to worry about.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
0 -
A French colleague of mine, bemused by this argument pointed out that the acceptable Person of Colour and the unacceptable Coloured Person are in fact the same in French - personne de couleur0
-
When even Hodges sees no point in May's strategy, boy
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/11054781904060293120 -
Thanks – I like the sound of Secret City.nico67 said:
Try Secret City._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
It’s an Australian political drama set in Canberra , there’s two series . It’s excellent . Also Mindhunter, that’s from the USA and is about the beginnings of psychological profiling in the FBI, it’s a bit slow to begin with but well worth sticking with .0 -
SeanT said:
I don’t struggle. I know all the right words. I knew - see below - that you can’t say “orientals” in America. I am just fascinated, as a writer, by the mentality that drives this ever-changing linguistic rule book.
Everyone needs *something* by which they can feel mortally offended. It's an innate human need.
0 -
-
The US has come quite a long way from whites only buses and Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Not surprising there are quite a number of hot buttons left._Anazina_ said:
Yes, okay, and thanks for the tip on orientals. You may very possibly have saved my bacon there – I had no idea it was regarded that way (although I might not have tended to use it – I say East Asian generally) – and have lots of American clients.SeanT said:_Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
I don’t struggle. I know all the right words. I knew - see below - that you can’t say “orientals” in America. I am just fascinated, as a writer, by the mentality that drives this ever-changing linguistic rule book.0 -
Asian Americans - if I was in America.Anorak said:Maybe something to do with the absence of 100's of years of slavery and abuse. Just a thought. Your use of 'orientals' sounds a bit off to my ears, too.
Regarding the (relative absence of) slavery point, yes that must be relevant.
But nevertheless when I mix in oriental circles (as I do a lot) I am often struck by the acceptance of racism, both dished and received, as being nothing to get worked up about at all, like it's sort of just a natural thing.
Anecdote only, though, no data or studies to quote.0 -
Was very comfused by East Indian first time I heard it. In Canada it means from India. To distinguish from a member of the First Nations...though this was 30 years ago.Philip_Thompson said:
And I guess in USA too in relation to what SeanT just wrote.dixiedean said:
Similar in Canada. Asians are from Thailand eastwards. Subcontinent are "South Asians".Philip_Thompson said:
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
Boris appears to be speaking against.0
-
Davis was never doing the deals. He was just a smokescreen so May and Robbins could fuck up the negotiations all on their own. And when he realised this he quit - as did his successor.SouthamObserver said:I love the fact that David Davis - consummate dealmaker, the man who assured us the EU would fold at the last minute - is going to fold and vote for May’s deal. That so sums him up.
0 -
The thing is with any of these non-PC faux pas. I always look to if it is a pattern. Somebody once slipping up using the wrong terminology, jumping to bury them is totally wrong....especially in Rudd's case when she was rising above party politics and defending Abbott.
However, when there is a pattern of this behaviour, that is when it should be pointed out e.g. Jared O'Mara didn't just once say some nasty thing on twitter at 3am after a few too many shandies, there was a pattern both online and in person (including extremely recently).
The same with all these people on twitter with the antisemitic / Islamophobic stuff online. Those being brought to attention didn't innocently just "like" one tweet, there is a history of them exchanging in this stuff.0 -
Sons of Anarchy is worth a watch, if you don't mind the violence. Sex Education has been recommended to me but I haven't seen it._Anazina_ said:
Thanks – I like the sound of Secret City.nico67 said:
Try Secret City._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
It’s an Australian political drama set in Canberra , there’s two series . It’s excellent . Also Mindhunter, that’s from the USA and is about the beginnings of psychological profiling in the FBI, it’s a bit slow to begin with but well worth sticking with .0 -
Johnson is so deeply unimpressive.0
-
The spin-off, Mayans MC is deeply disappointing however.IanB2 said:
Sons of Anarchy is worth a watch, if you don't mind the violence. Sex Education has been recommended to me but I haven't seen it._Anazina_ said:
Thanks – I like the sound of Secret City.nico67 said:
Try Secret City._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
It’s an Australian political drama set in Canberra , there’s two series . It’s excellent . Also Mindhunter, that’s from the USA and is about the beginnings of psychological profiling in the FBI, it’s a bit slow to begin with but well worth sticking with .0 -
So is someone ethnically Asian but who comes from Trinidad a West Indian East Indian?dixiedean said:
Was very comfused by East Indian first time I heard it. In Canada it means from India. To distinguish from a member of the First Nations...though this was 30 years ago.Philip_Thompson said:
And I guess in USA too in relation to what SeanT just wrote.dixiedean said:
Similar in Canada. Asians are from Thailand eastwards. Subcontinent are "South Asians".Philip_Thompson said:
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
Perhaps the prevalence of racism within the Far East - meaning between peoples of that area - has desensitised them to it.kinabalu said:
Asian Americans - if I was in America.Anorak said:Maybe something to do with the absence of 100's of years of slavery and abuse. Just a thought. Your use of 'orientals' sounds a bit off to my ears, too.
Regarding the (relative absence of) slavery point, yes that must be relevant.
But nevertheless when I mix in oriental circles (as I do a lot) I am often struck by the acceptance of racism, both dished and received, as being nothing to get worked up about at all, like it's sort of just a natural thing.
Anecdote only, though, no data or studies to quote.0 -
Boris is the man to unite the Tory party. But perhaps not in the way he wants.0
-
I tend to operate on British lines.SeanT said:Lol
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
"Saw this oriental girl in Tesco earlier. Phew, what a scorcher!"
Nothing offensive about that surely?0 -
Agreed. It's on iPlayer and I lost interest after one episode.FrancisUrquhart said:
The spin-off, Mayans MC is deeply disappointing however.IanB2 said:
Sons of Anarchy is worth a watch, if you don't mind the violence. Sex Education has been recommended to me but I haven't seen it._Anazina_ said:
Thanks – I like the sound of Secret City.nico67 said:
Try Secret City._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
It’s an Australian political drama set in Canberra , there’s two series . It’s excellent . Also Mindhunter, that’s from the USA and is about the beginnings of psychological profiling in the FBI, it’s a bit slow to begin with but well worth sticking with .0 -
Nothing, fundamentally, is going to get them on board. At least nothing the EU is willing to give.kle4 said:When even Hodges sees no point in May's strategy, boy
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105478190406029312
I now seriously believe we’re looking at a GE or EuRef2 (probably deal vs remain).0 -
Relevant for leadership betting?
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/11055207302241607680 -
Have you asked Shivnarine Chanderpaul ?SandyRentool said:
So is someone ethnically Asian but who comes from Trinidad a West Indian East Indian?dixiedean said:
Was very comfused by East Indian first time I heard it. In Canada it means from India. To distinguish from a member of the First Nations...though this was 30 years ago.Philip_Thompson said:
And I guess in USA too in relation to what SeanT just wrote.dixiedean said:
Similar in Canada. Asians are from Thailand eastwards. Subcontinent are "South Asians".Philip_Thompson said:
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
Yep Boris is speaking for the already dead Malthouse with no deal as the alternative.
Putting himself out of the mainstream. Speech didn't get much appreciation in the House.0 -
I've made the Native American / Indian rather than using "First Nation" faux pas in Canada as well.....
Hopefully I don't get de-platformed !!!!0 -
IanB2 said:
Sons of Anarchy is worth a watch, if you don't mind the violence. Sex Education has been recommended to me but I haven't seen it._Anazina_ said:
Thanks – I like the sound of Secret City.nico67 said:
Sex Education I have seen – it is superb._Anazina_ said:
Can you recommend a Netflix series? I have finally finished Ozark so am in the market for a new one, starting tonight.SeanT said:
snipdavid_herdson said:
Politicians follow the people. You can build great enterprises based on a sense of national mission *but* (1) that sense of mission and the kind of sacrifices it demands will invariably end up trampling over others in the process, and (2) in time, the rigour and discipline needed to build the enterprise will drift, in favour of comfort and luxury.Jonathan said:
Alternatively eries of dysfunction.SeanT said:
Brexit we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.OldKingCole said:eek said:Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Britain built a great enterprise in the empire but even leaving aside the moral questions associated with it, the public fell out of love with the mission - and nothing has ever really replaced it (and how can you really replace 'running the world'?). You can blame Westminster and Whitehall but there's never since been the kind of national story around which to build a new narrative.
As an aside, there are certainly Eurocrats who truly believe in the European project just as much as empire-builders of old. Their mistake is in failing to inspire the kind of national mission that drove nations from Athens and Rome through to post-WW2 America or perhaps China today.
Just a late night guess. And now, definitely, Netflix and wine. KapKap.
Try Secret City.
It’s an Australian political drama set in Canberra , there’s two series . It’s excellent . Also Mindhunter, that’s from the USA and is about the beginnings of psychological profiling in the FBI, it’s a bit slow to begin with but well worth sticking with .0 -
Unless they were inducted into one of the First Nations. Then they certainly wouldn't be any kind of Indian!SandyRentool said:
So is someone ethnically Asian but who comes from Trinidad a West Indian East Indian?dixiedean said:
Was very comfused by East Indian first time I heard it. In Canada it means from India. To distinguish from a member of the First Nations...though this was 30 years ago.Philip_Thompson said:
And I guess in USA too in relation to what SeanT just wrote.dixiedean said:
Similar in Canada. Asians are from Thailand eastwards. Subcontinent are "South Asians".Philip_Thompson said:
One linguistic issue I found strange when moving from Australia back to the UK is the word Asians. In Australia in the 90s it tended to refer to far East Asia. Collectively the Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Japanese etc are Asians.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
Here in the UK it tends to mean Indian/Pakistani.
Its remarkable how things stick with you from when you're growing up. I only lived in Australia for just over 7 years, I've lived in the UK for nearly 3 decades. But my teenage/high school/formative years were down under and to this day if I hear the word Asian I think of the far East and not the subcontinent.0 -
kinabalu said:
I tend to operate on British lines.SeanT said:Lol
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.
"Saw this oriental girl in Tesco earlier. Phew, what a scorcher!"
Nothing offensive about that surely?
It sounds more like you are describing the weather.
0 -
That's the key to all these things. If people have suffered abuse using term X, they are naturally sensitive to its use. If they haven't, then broadly speaking they don't care. I was brought up in Denmark - you can call me a Scandi any time, shrug. But if during the German occupation there had been a policy of abusing and torturing people while calling them Scandis, then not.Anorak said:Maybe something to do with the absence of 100's of years of slavery and abuse.
0 -
Boris Johnson speaking as the ERG were meeting. That looks like unfortunate timing to me.0
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On the other hand they still use the word "handicapped" in the USA for disabled people, which has become non-PC over here.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.0 -
Can't say I heard common use of First Nation until about 5 years ago, no doubt it was in use a lot longer than that but I was not aware of it.FrancisUrquhart said:I've made the Native American / Indian rather than using "First Nation" faux pas in Canada as well.....
Hopefully I don't get de-platformed !!!!0 -
Because No Deal will have been taken off the table by Parliament.kle4 said:When even Hodges sees no point in May's strategy, boy
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105478190406029312
The only calculation for the ERG at that point is Deal via MV3 or softer/no Brexit.
A number (most?) of the Brexiteers voting against tonight will comfort themselves that a hard Brexit is still possible via no-deal.
Once that comfort disappears, their calculation is very different.
Tuesday: MV2 - lost
Wednesday: No deal - rejected
Thursday: MV3 + Extend for legislative processes - wins
She just has to retain control until Thursday and it could all finally fall into place. Simples - as she said.
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Yes. I have avoided it since my lecture from America. It does now sound jarring to me, even as a Brit.SandyRentool said:
I can't imagine any non-gammon using the term orientals here either.SeanT said:_Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't the more basic point that it is widely recognised to be offensive to a whole community(rather than just one or two individuals taking offense) and as such any decent person who wasn't actually setting out to offend, would avoid using it.Ishmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ah, perhaps you can help me. I've heard this explanation before, but it makes no sense. Even if you take the irrational view that 'coloured woman' implies that the default woman is white, why on earth is 'woman of colour' any more acceptable? I'm sure people who read the Guardian more avidly than me must know the answer, but I've never found it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
I don’t struggle. I know all the right words. I knew - see below - that you can’t say “orientals” in America. I am just fascinated, as a writer, by the mentality that drives this ever-changing linguistic rule book.
Yet I would forgive a non-writer with less education for using it. How would he or she even know?
This is where I object to the Latest Acceptable Race-Word Lexicon. It is used to trap people and embarrass them, or humiliate them, or even destroy their careers. But it tends to trap people with less education and less information who are often entirely innocent. E.g. I have no doubt there are entirely non-racist old people in the UK who genuinely think “colored” is the polite way to describe BAMEs (and just listen to that: BAMEs - how is that “better”???). Yet if they used it on TV they’d be pilloried until death.
It’s a total load of wank. And I speak as a cracker, honky, doughboy, kaffir, gringo, and a pasty-eater.
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Any worries on the number of switchers ?AlastairMeeks said:Boris Johnson speaking as the ERG were meeting. That looks like unfortunate timing to me.
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How come there were no amendments (or none worth selecting), what happened there? Missed that bit of the story.
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Well, thanks. Things of which I was not aware, and wish I was not still not aware of.FrancisUrquhart said:I've made the Native American / Indian rather than using "First Nation" faux pas in Canada as well.....
Hopefully I don't get de-platformed !!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy0 -
I was not aware that it had become non-PC.AndyJS said:
On the other hand they still use the word "handicapped" in the USA for disabled people, which has become non-PC over here.SeanT said:
Lolkinabalu said:'Women of Colour' but far less frequently 'Men of Colour', I have noticed. It's the linguistic equivalent of opening the car door.
Why is 'coloured person' offensive? It's the 'white is default' point already made and there is also another aspect. It dates from when 'black' was seen as being something to be slightly ashamed of, like being illegitimate or something, and hence people would say 'coloured' in this kind of mealy mouthed whispery way, to avoid giving what they thought might be offence. My old mum was still doing it even a couple of years back and I had to give her quite a bollocking to get her to stop it and just say black.
Oh and addendum, has anybody else noticed how orientals appear on the whole to be far less sensitive to this sort of stuff - both as directed against them and in terms of what they dish out?
You do realize that the word “Orientals” is regarded as MASSIVELY offensive in the USA? For them it is worse than “Pakis” and pretty close to the N word. A politician using it might have to resign.
But of course you don’t realize this, or you wouldn’t have used the word. You prove my point, precisely.0 -
On the other side:Pulpstar said:
Any worries on the number of switchers ?AlastairMeeks said:Boris Johnson speaking as the ERG were meeting. That looks like unfortunate timing to me.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1105521288603410432
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I always worry. The numbers so far are higher than I expected. Let's see what comes out of the ERG. While they aren't a cohesive group, we should get a general sense of where they are all landing.Pulpstar said:
Any worries on the number of switchers ?AlastairMeeks said:Boris Johnson speaking as the ERG were meeting. That looks like unfortunate timing to me.
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However, you can see the logic here. They are neither Indian, nor American after all.FrancisUrquhart said:I've made the Native American / Indian rather than using "First Nation" faux pas in Canada as well.....
Hopefully I don't get de-platformed !!!!0 -
Davis is an incompetent windbag. Part of the reason we're where we are today is his complete failure to do anything much. Talks a good game, but delivers like a drunk postman in a maze.Richard_Tyndall said:
Davis was never doing the deals. He was just a smokescreen so May and Robbins could fuck up the negotiations all on their own. And when he realised this he quit - as did his successor.SouthamObserver said:I love the fact that David Davis - consummate dealmaker, the man who assured us the EU would fold at the last minute - is going to fold and vote for May’s deal. That so sums him up.
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It may be hard to tell the difference sometimes, since someone would use it as an excuse evenif not the case, but there is surely a distinction between someone perhaps using an older term that used to be acceptable but is no longer but clearly meaning no offence even though they have caused it, and those who swing around racial epithets as casual insults.SeanT said:
Yes. I have avoided it since my lecture from America. It does now sound jarring to me, even as a Brit.SandyRentool said:
I can't imagine any non-gammon using the term orientals here either.SeanT said:_Anazina_ said:
Spot on. This really is a tedious discussion. Grown men like SeanT and RichardN really ought to be able to manage this. I'm surprised they find it such a struggle.Richard_Tyndall said:
IsnIshmael_Z said:
But what usage? Racists have never said "coloured woman," they say "n-gg-r" - unless you can point us to some counter examples. And anyway "of colour" is close enough to "coloured" that if one is offensive they both are.Stereotomy said:
Because whether a word is a slur is based on usage, not something you can derive purely from etymology.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ahound it.SeanT said:Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
As someone pointed out last week this seems to me to be more of a basic principle of good manners.
I dbook.
Yet I would forgive a non-writer with less education for using it. How would he or she even know?
This is where I object to the Latest Acceptable Race-Word Lexicon. It is used to trap people and embarrass them, or humiliate them, or even destroy their careers. But it tends to trap people with less education and less information who are often entirely innocent. E.g. I have no doubt there are entirely non-racist old people in the UK who genuinely think “colored” is the polite way to describe BAMEs (and just listen to that: BAMEs - how is that “better”???). Yet if they used it on TV they’d be pilloried until death.
It’s a total load of wank. And I speak as a cracker, honky, doughboy, kaffir, gringo, and a pasty-eater.
The first terminological change I can remember from being young was use of spastic, which I heard recently (I cannot confirm) is not considered as offensive in the US as it is here now.0
