I have a sneaking suspicion that 90% of vociferous leavers (you know "WTO will be fine" and "traitor!!") have no real idea what's in the withdrawal agreement they hate so much.
Just a feeling, mind.
Then they would be in the same boat as the apparently much-admired Ken Clarke when he voted for the Maastricht Treaty “without having read it”. He even boasted about it.
The respect for Clarke on here bewilders me. I’m sure he’s a lovely affable jazz loving dude and all that, but really, the lazy arrogant complacency of ardent europhiles like him - never questioning the views of their youth, just like Corbyn - are one of the reasons we are now in this deep pile of dung.
If the europhiles had been more intelligent, wise and humble, they would have realised that resentment against the EU was slowly building, and needed to be vented in a safe, democratic way. With a referendum on one of the prior Treaties, which would not have resulted in the fatal rupture of Brexit.
But no, the europhiles just kept on keeping on, ignoring the people, or outright lying to them. And constantly denying promised plebiscites.
And here we are. Discussing the break up of the nation and the impoverishment of all.
Clarke at least has compromised and accepted the deal.
Yes he has, and TMs now busted deal is the one way back not only for the excellent Kenneth Clarke but the thousands of other politicians who over decades have allowed this democratic deficit to develop and fester. KC is prepared to vote for it; and he was (alone among the Tories I think) prepared not to vote to trigger Art 50 before we knew what we wanted. He was right when the others were all wrong.
Goodness knows what the way back will be now. Unless of course the EU being the EU and TM being TM we are not quite at the 59th minute of the 11th hour??
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I don't like the sound of Scott Mann voting for the deal though )
So how is this lying, useless, hypocritical collection of scum bags going to get us back to remain? Surely that is the only question that is left.
Extension for 3 months, then referendum.
I'd say a GE is more likely than a second ref. It is the only escape route that doesn't blow the Tory party apart.
A GE also does that and does not secure an outcome.
Time to face up to facts, my friends. The Tory Party has been held together for years and years only by string, chewing gum, bluff and a desire to cling on to power. Finally the underlying reality is catching up with them
It's for the best. They cannot pretend this is normal.
How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
Am I misremembering, or were you considering voting Leave very early on in the referendum campaign?
A 52/48 victory for remain would not have solved the problem of the long term democratic deficit over Europe, any more than the first Scottish IndiRef has cured the SNP of a desire for independence.
So how is this lying, useless, hypocritical collection of scum bags going to get us back to remain? Surely that is the only question that is left.
Extension for 3 months, then referendum.
I'd say a GE is more likely than a second ref. It is the only escape route that doesn't blow the Tory party apart.
A GE also does that and does not secure an outcome.
+1 If the Tory Manifesto says that they will implement May's Deal how does JRM or other ERG members stand under the Tory banner...
It can't be May you are being asked to give another go. At best, it would be a collective "Mea culpa - we dicked around under her and wasted a couple of years, but the new team, they will REALLY be shit-hot from day one...."
I'm thinking that might not hold up.
How many of those who were swigging champers after they helped keep May in power giving her the VONC are now thinking "bollocks....." What has held the Tory party together in recent years has been the desire to block Boris. Well, turning tha inot backing for May means they are paying a high price for that now.
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was an MP, a man who claims not to see any anti-Semitism in THAT mural. He is either lying (and I don’t wish to think that of Nick) or really quite remarkably ignorant.
On the other side you have Leavers like John Redwood (another man who I presumed had a basic intelligence) claiming that Airbus quitting was never a problem for Britain, because they would never quit, as “they will always need our wings to fly”.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Any odds on Liz Truss delivering the spring statement tomorrow?
Isn't the extension vote thursday ?
Yes, although there was some rumour it might be brought forward.
May's best move would be to announce an extension application as soon as her deal is voted down. At least that would allow her to retain a bit of ability to steer events.
It was noticeable during her opening speech when she was challenged on the point that we need an extension even if the deal is agreed, she didn't deny it but simply said it would be subject to discussion between the parties.
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
Looking at this as I do from a transactional perspective, if I were advising the conservatives at least, I'd be telling them that they need to do the f***ing deal. Yes it's imperfect, but so are 99% of deals. Yes there's a risk, but again all deals are to an extent a balance of risk between the two sides. Most importantly, there's nothing that can be changed - the added wording has reduced the risk, and reduced is all we're going to get - so while it's good that we've held out for these small concessions now we just have to accept the deal and move forward.
The alternatives - if you're a tory at least - are much worse. No Deal might have been an option 2 years ago, but we've not prepared therefore the risk is too great, while those wishing for Ref2 or Remain will surely see their party split and democracy undermined for generations. And worst of all, what happens next may be totally out of their control.
So in short, do the f***ing deal. You'll regret it if you don't one way or the other.
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I'm not watching, but is there a steady stream of leavers standing up saying they can't back the deal still ?
Looking at this as I do from a transactional perspective, if I were advising the conservatives at least, I'd be telling them that they need to do the f***ing deal. Yes it's imperfect, but so are 99% of deals. Yes there's a risk, but again all deals are to an extent a balance of risk between the two sides. Most importantly, there's nothing that can be changed - the added wording has reduced the risk, and reduced is all we're going to get - so while it's good that we've held out for these small concessions now we just have to accept the deal and move forward.
The alternatives - if you're a tory at least - are much worse. No Deal might have been an option 2 years ago, but we've not prepared therefore the risk is too great, while those wishing for Ref2 or Remain will surely see their party split and democracy undermined for generations. And worst of all, what happens next may be totally out of their control.
So in short, do the f***ing deal. You'll regret it if you don't one way or the other.
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I'm not watching, but is there a steady stream of leavers standing up saying they can't back the deal still ?
Bill Cash (apparently on behalf of the ERG), John Redwood, JRM. There may be some more.
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I'm not watching, but is there a steady stream of leavers standing up saying they can't back the deal still ?
Bill Cash (apparently on behalf of the ERG), John Redwood, JRM. There may be some more.
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I'm not watching, but is there a steady stream of leavers standing up saying they can't back the deal still ?
Bill Cash (apparently on behalf of the ERG), John Redwood, JRM. There may be some more.
JRM says he hasn't decided yet. Most of the others only implied they would vote against. There's an ERG meeting at 5 to decide their position though it looks like their internal Whip has broken down anyway.
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was an MP, a man who claims not to see any anti-Semitism in THAT mural. He is either lying (and I don’t wish to think that of Nick) or really quite remarkably ignorant.
On the other side you have Leavers like John Redwood (another man who I presumed had a basic intelligence) claiming that Airbus quitting was never a problem for Britain, because they would never quit, as “they will always need our wings to fly”.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
Looking at this as I do from a transactional perspective, if I were advising the conservatives at least, I'd be telling them that they need to do the f***ing deal. Yes it's imperfect, but so are 99% of deals. Yes there's a risk, but again all deals are to an extent a balance of risk between the two sides. Most importantly, there's nothing that can be changed - the added wording has reduced the risk, and reduced is all we're going to get - so while it's good that we've held out for these small concessions now we just have to accept the deal and move forward.
The alternatives - if you're a tory at least - are much worse. No Deal might have been an option 2 years ago, but we've not prepared therefore the risk is too great, while those wishing for Ref2 or Remain will surely see their party split and democracy undermined for generations. And worst of all, what happens next may be totally out of their control.
So in short, do the f***ing deal. You'll regret it if you don't one way or the other.
Amen to that, but you're being too rational.
It's my job to be rational as towards the end of most difficult transactions irrationality is rife! Unfortunately our HOC is a prime example of that. And I say that as someone who always felt most of the ERG would eventually fall behind the deal. I sadly suspect that I will be wrong.
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I'm not watching, but is there a steady stream of leavers standing up saying they can't back the deal still ?
Bill Cash (apparently on behalf of the ERG), John Redwood, JRM. There may be some more.
JRM says he hasn't decided yet. Most of the others only implied they would vote against. There's an ERG meeting at 5 to decide their position though it looks like their internal Whip has broken down anyway.
If it's going to fail anyway (which without the DUP and assorted extreme headbangers is inevitable), what have they got to lose by voting against?
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was an MP, a man who claims not to see any anti-Semitism in THAT mural. He is either lying (and I don’t wish to think that of Nick) or really quite remarkably ignorant.
On the other side you have Leavers like John Redwood (another man who I presumed had a basic intelligence) claiming that Airbus quitting was never a problem for Britain, because they would never quit, as “they will always need our wings to fly”.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
Wasn't Redwood a fellow of All Souls, meaning he had to past the most difficult exam on the planet?
You're all assuming that everyone that voted for the deal last time will do so this time.
Yes, I said that when I started the count. I think it's a fair working assumption, though, and in any case for us sellers on the spreads, any switchers in that direction are bunce.
I'm not watching, but is there a steady stream of leavers standing up saying they can't back the deal still ?
Bill Cash (apparently on behalf of the ERG), John Redwood, JRM. There may be some more.
Probably the same twenty geniuses that last time found reasons to vote against the harmless programme motion simply noting Parliaments decision
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was an MP, a man who claims not to see any anti-Semitism in THAT mural. He is either lying (and I don’t wish to think that of Nick) or really quite remarkably ignorant.
On the other side you have Leavers like John Redwood (another man who I presumed had a basic intelligence) claiming that Airbus quitting was never a problem for Britain, because they would never quit, as “they will always need our wings to fly”.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was an MP, a man who claims not to see any anti-Semitism in THAT mural. He is either lying (and I don’t wish to think that of Nick) or really quite remarkably ignorant.
On the other side you have Leavers like John Redwood (another man who I presumed had a basic intelligence) claiming that Airbus quitting was never a problem for Britain, because they would never quit, as “they will always need our wings to fly”.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
Wasn't Redwood a fellow of All Souls, meaning he had to past the most difficult exam on the planet?
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
Am American colleague just asked me what was going on...
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
The other point is that the left are always incredibly keen to tell us that we should listen to the victims of prejudice when deciding whether something is racist, for example to ensure that we avoid using terms like 'coloured'. So you might naively have thought that they'd apply this principle to anti-semitism, and that therefore they'd go out of their way to educate themselves on the subject - especially a leader of the opposition who claims to have fought anti-semitism all his life. After all, they wouldn't want to be seen as self-serving hypocrites, would they?
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
I don’t like your negativity.
We hold all the cards which means we’re headed for sunlit uplands.
Those German carmakers forced Merkel to give us a good deal.
How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
Based on the incredibly naïve idea that the problem would just have gone away and we wouldn't now be seeing the real extremists sitting on the benches in Parliament making laws on our behalf.
The biggest myth perpetuated by people like you is that there was such a thing as the status quo and that the alternative to what we have now was settled membership of the EU. All you would have been doing would be delaying the inevitable and making the situation all the worse. Which is exactly what will happen if we revoke now.
It is you one nation Tories who have played down the problems of EU membership and happily watched as we got drawn ever further into their power that are the root cause of this issue. If the Tories had had any balls we would never have got to this point.
BBC reporting talk that there could be an MV3 on Thursday.
Presumably TM will head to Brussels tomorrow evening to get a piece of paper saying “we really really mean it, promise” which could tip the balance...
What a pathetic showing. The only benefit would be not dragging that failed vote out into next week.
But she wont get the chance
MV3 could be a one with a second referendum amendment tacked on, with the backing of the government.
I presume the hope is that MPs will vote against no deal and against an extension for the second time for both, and so MV3 would be presented as the only way to reconcile those two votes.
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
Am American colleague just asked me what was going on...
What other politics in the world sends the leader into such a bear pit to debate for their political life? Incompetent clowns or very essence of debate and democracy in action
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
And did you get the 'coloured' issue?
Yes. Of course. I’m so up-to-speed I know you have to say (as of today) “black and minority ethnic” or BAME, rather than “ethnic minority”, as that is now deemed pejorative. Who knows what will be the accepted terminology tomorrow.
I actually have more sympathy for people who get words wrong, for this reason: the “politically correct” words keep changing. In my lifetime we’ve gone from colored to black to Afro-Caribbean to people of color to blah blah. It’s insane and I forgive people who fuck up.
But the tropes of anti-Semitism (hook noses, gloating bankers, etc) have NOT changed in a hundred years, which is why ignorance of them is much more unforgivable.
How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
Am I misremembering, or were you considering voting Leave very early on in the referendum campaign?
I said I’d look at the evidence before deciding.
If we’d kept membership of the single market and customs union I might have voted Leave.
As a child of Thatcher I consider the single market her second finest achievement.
With you in that... her first must be that old claim to mr whippie ice cream?
Her finest achievement was taming the trade union movement (as part of her economic reforms)
Isn't that why we now have the gig economy?
No, thats globalisation.... gig economy exists all over the world.
Not just globalisation, also the changing nature of demand, the increased importance of services in the economy, the 24 by 7 lifestyle, the break-up of traditional families, etc etc.
How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
Am I misremembering, or were you considering voting Leave very early on in the referendum campaign?
I said I’d look at the evidence before deciding.
If we’d kept membership of the single market and customs union I might have voted Leave.
As a child of Thatcher I consider the single market her second finest achievement.
With you in that... her first must be that old claim to mr whippie ice cream?
Her finest achievement was taming the trade union movement (as part of her economic reforms)
Isn't that why we now have the gig economy?
No, thats globalisation.... gig economy exists all over the world.
Not quite its the joys of the internet (consolidating things globally) and compartmental-ism of jobs.
Uber is a great example, previously everywhere had a local taxi firm now there is a single app you download and that can be used wherever you are (although not in Sofia).
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
And did you get the 'coloured' issue?
Yes. Of course. I’m so up-to-speed I know you have to say (as of today) “black and minority ethnic” or BAME, rather than “ethnic minority”, as that is now deemed pejorative. Who knows what will be the accepted terminology tomorrow.
I actually have more sympathy for people who get words wrong, for this reason: the “politically correct” words keep changing. In my lifetime we’ve gone from colored to black to Afro-Caribbean to people of color to blah blah. It’s insane and I forgive people who fuck up.
But the tropes of anti-Semitism (hook noses, gloating bankers, etc) have NOT changed in a hundred years, which is why ignorance of them is much more unforgivable.
I do quite like 'Red Sea pedestrian' - hope noones offended though.
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
And did you get the 'coloured' issue?
Yes. Of course. I’m so up-to-speed I know you have to say (as of today) “black and minority ethnic” or BAME, rather than “ethnic minority”, as that is now deemed pejorative. Who knows what will be the accepted terminology tomorrow.
I actually have more sympathy for people who get words wrong, for this reason: the “politically correct” words keep changing. In my lifetime we’ve gone from colored to black to Afro-Caribbean to people of color to blah blah. It’s insane and I forgive people who fuck up.
But the tropes of anti-Semitism (hook noses, gloating bankers, etc) have NOT changed in a hundred years, which is why ignorance of them is much more unforgivable.
So you don't know why it is offensive. I suggest you find out before judging others.
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was an MP, a man who claims not to see any anti-Semitism in THAT mural. He is either lying (and I don’t wish to think that of Nick) or really quite remarkably ignorant.
On the other side you have Leavers like John Redwood (another man who I presumed had a basic intelligence) claiming that Airbus quitting was never a problem for Britain, because they would never quit, as “they will always need our wings to fly”.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. I got it when it was pointed out. I did however understand immediately that 'coloured' was not an acceptable description for black people. I don't know if you were among them, but it seemed to cause quite some confusion when it was discussed on here. I didn't assume that the people who somehow managed to miss it were liars or ignoramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
And did you get the 'coloured' issue?
IMHO, the difference is that Rudd was offering moral support to Abbott, whereas the painter was denigrating Jews.
Well, yes, except that if there is a fatal flaw, it will be identified and fixed within a pretty short time. Hopefully any such fix won’t require costly modifications to the existing fleet, but the 5,000 on order will have it from the factory, if one should prove necessary. There are plenty of examples of aircraft types that had serious issues found early on that once rectified had long careers and plentiful production runs. The DC-10 and its derivatives are the prime example.
He closes some strange examples. Christian Democracy has collapsed in Holland and Denmark, in favour of Populist right parties, and Social Democracy has collapsed in Holland and Germany, in favour of Populist left parties.
How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
Am I misremembering, or were you considering voting Leave very early on in the referendum campaign?
I said I’d look at the evidence before deciding.
If we’d kept membership of the single market and customs union I might have voted Leave.
As a child of Thatcher I consider the single market her second finest achievement.
With you in that... her first must be that old claim to mr whippie ice cream?
Her finest achievement was taming the trade union movement (as part of her economic reforms)
Isn't that why we now have the gig economy?
No, thats globalisation.... gig economy exists all over the world.
Not just globalisation, also the changing nature of demand, the increased importance of services in the economy, the 24 by 7 lifestyle, the break-up of traditional families, etc etc.
I'm starting to think Theresa has played a blinder and her approach will be utterly vindicated. Of course, nothing significant has changed with the deal, but grinding things out so that everyone eventually just votes for it out of sheer exhaustion may prove to be a masterstroke.
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Brexit is a shambolic festival of democratic chaos BUT I am with dots on this, at least we have a democratic festival, however chaotic.
Other nations simply abjured their awkward referendum results, or overruled them. We are going through embarrassing paroxysms BECAUSE we are an ancient democracy, and we see the people’s will as important. If people want to laugh and point from foreign parts, fuck ‘em. We are British and we take these things very seriously. Hence the anarchy. It would be so much easier if we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
The other point is that the left are always incredibly keen to tell us that we should listen to the victims of prejudice when deciding whether something is racist, for example to ensure that we avoid using terms like 'coloured'. So you might naively have thought that they'd apply this principle to anti-semitism, and that therefore they'd go out of their way to educate themselves on the subject - especially a leader of the opposition who claims to have fought anti-semitism all his life. After all, they wouldn't want to be seen as self-serving hypocrites, would they?
Not sure what you mean by the left. I have never noticed that left wing people I know are anti-semitic. I have come across right wing people who are. And I was very happy to be educated about that trope that the mural used. I am afraid my interest in politics isn't deep enough to have found out about it myself but I know now. If that makes me a self serving hypocrite, well I've got a wife at home to love me.
There is very much a "two wrongs make a right" fallacy occurring in this debate.
If you believe an extension or no Brexit is wrong that doesn't make the deal right. It can also be wrong. If Parliament is only willing to accept bad choices then that doesn't make them right.
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Brexit is a shambolic festival of democratic chaos BUT I am with dots on this, at least we have a democratic festival, however chaotic.
Other nations simply abjured their awkward referendum results, or overruled them. We are going through embarrassing paroxysms BECAUSE we are an ancient democracy, and we see the people’s will as important. If people want to laugh and point from foreign parts, fuck ‘em. We are British and we take these things very seriously. Hence the anarchy. It would be so much easier if we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.
Alternatively Westminster/Whitehall is a basket case, it really represents only itself, has been unfit for purpose for years and has been instrumental in the century long decline of the UK.
Brexit is merely a Christmas special in a long series of dysfunction.
He closes some strange examples. Christian Democracy has collapsed in Holland and Denmark, in favour of Populist right parties, and Social Democracy has collapsed in Holland and Germany, in favour of Populist left parties.
He writes well, but writes variations on the same piece time and time again. It's a little dull and one of the reasons that I enjoy the Economist less.
He's one of those people who leaves their home country and thinks that the best way to ingratiate themselves into their new environment is compare their home country unfavourably in every aspect when compared to their new host.
Oh, add Nicky Morgan to the list of people who’ve gone up in estimation during the Brexit process. She rather worryingly talks quite a lot of sense nowadays.
Well, yes, except that if there is a fatal flaw, it will be identified and fixed within a pretty short time. Hopefully any such fix won’t require costly modifications to the existing fleet, but the 5,000 on order will have it from the factory, if one should prove necessary. There are plenty of examples of aircraft types that had serious issues found early on that once rectified had long careers and plentiful production runs. The DC-10 and its derivatives are the prime example.
Except if it's the same flaw that caused the earlier crash and wasn't fixed in the interim then it looks pretty awful.
Watching NTV news in Germany (well I'm in Sofia but there are more Germans in the lounge than me) and Brexit is the main news story. As a country we look like a bunch of incompetent clowns...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
Brexit is a shambolic festival of democratic chaos BUT I am with dots on this, at least we have a democratic festival, however chaotic.
Other nations simply abjured their awkward referendum results, or overruled them. We are going through embarrassing paroxysms BECAUSE we are an ancient democracy, and we see the people’s will as important. If people want to laugh and point from foreign parts, fuck ‘em. We are British and we take these things very seriously. Hence the anarchy. It would be so much easier if we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.
We should be very proud of our ancient democracy.
We should utterly condemn our political class who have dragged it into the gutter.
IMHO, the difference is that Rudd was offering moral support to Abbott, whereas the painter was denigrating Jews.
Very true. Another difference is that Rudd spoke the words but Corbyn did not wield the brush.
My initial reaction was to view the mural as anti-masonic - but anti-masonry and anti-Semitism frequently go hand in hand. However, the painter was very honest about his anti-Jewish intentions.
Well, well. Just looked at the Guardian site and this popped up 'US federal prosecutors have charged dozens of people in a years-old $25m scheme to help wealthy Americans buy their children’s way into elite universities including Yale, Georgetown and Stanford, and the University of Southern California.'
Not sure what you mean by the left. I have never noticed that left wing people I know are anti-semitic. I have come across right wing people who are. And I was very happy to be educated about that trope that the mural used. I am afraid my interest in politics isn't deep enough to have found out about it myself but I know now. If that makes me a self serving hypocrite, well I've got a wife at home to love me.
Well we had a very interesting chat on here the other day about how 'understandable' the widespread prejudice in this country against Muslims was. Perhaps you missed it. It was rather illuminating!
Whilst we're having a good time lampooning the ERG for not taking yes for an answer, can anyone explain the remainers on twitter who seem to value "parliamentary sovereignty" whilst at the same time wishing to put the decision "back to the people", when it was "parliamentary sovereignty" that gave the decision to the people in the first place ?
How many of PB one nation Leavers now wish they had voted Remain?
It avoids this shit show and we’d probably still have Dave in charge.
Am I misremembering, or were you considering voting Leave very early on in the referendum campaign?
I said I’d look at the evidence before deciding.
If we’d kept membership of the single market and customs union I might have voted Leave.
As a child of Thatcher I consider the single market her second finest achievement.
With you in that... her first must be that old claim to mr whippie ice cream?
Her finest achievement was taming the trade union movement (as part of her economic reforms)
Isn't that why we now have the gig economy?
No, thats globalisation.... gig economy exists all over the world.
Not just globalisation, also the changing nature of demand, the increased importance of services in the economy, the 24 by 7 lifestyle, the break-up of traditional families, etc etc.
I'm starting to think Theresa has played a blinder and her approach will be utterly vindicated. Of course, nothing significant has changed with the deal, but grinding things out so that everyone eventually just votes for it out of sheer exhaustion may prove to be a masterstroke.
Once the Tories would have taken their lead from the approval of industry and business and the consequent sight of Sterling strengthening as it did last night when it was though the deal might go through. Hardline ERG Tory MPs in parliament have become so introspective they can't see the wood from the trees.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
The other point is that the left are always incredibly keen to tell us that we should listen to the victims of prejudice when deciding whether something is racist, for example to ensure that we avoid using terms like 'coloured'. So you might naively have thought that they'd apply this principle to anti-semitism, and that therefore they'd go out of their way to educate themselves on the subject - especially a leader of the opposition who claims to have fought anti-semitism all his life. After all, they wouldn't want to be seen as self-serving hypocrites, would they?
Not sure what you mean by the left. I have never noticed that left wing people I know are anti-semitic. I have come across right wing people who are. And I was very happy to be educated about that trope that the mural used. I am afraid my interest in politics isn't deep enough to have found out about it myself but I know now. If that makes me a self serving hypocrite, well I've got a wife at home to love me.
I mean those who support the Greens, the Labour Party, and to an extent the LibDems in the UK, i.e. 'the left' as usually defined in this country.
As for your hypocrisy, my comment wasn't aimed at you, but as it happens you've just reprimanded @SeantT for allegedly not doing enough research into why 'coloured' has been moved into the no-go list. I would put it to you gently that any accidental negative connotations of this once common word are utterly trivial compared with a mural directly echoing Nazi and other propaganda which was deliberately designed to stir up hatred and which contributed to a moral insanity unprecedented in history. Perhaps you should reflect on that, and on why you have never troubled to educate yourself on it, before accusing Sean of neglect.
Any Tory MP who votes against the Deal today is essentially saying they are opposed to any achievable Brexit. It's really that simple. I honestly thought they were smarter than they are giving the impression of being. I consistently over-estimate the intelligence of MPs of all parties. I must keep reminding myself that the only skill they have that I envy is their ability to stay awake in meetings.
Yes. Remember that Nick Palmer was.
I mean. Fuck me. Help.
I didn't see anything antisemitic in that mural either. ramuses. I think it better to give people the benefit of the doubt on these matters. We all have blind spots.
Sorry. But no. Only a very badly educated person, or a moron, could fail to spot the anti-Semitism in that mural. It used ALL the tropes of Jew-hating Nazi cartoons: the hook noses, the flowing beards, the gloating faces, the strangely long hair, the conspiratorial table, it even had a floating symbol, only the artist switched the Star of David for some Illuminati wotsit.
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
And did you get the 'coloured' issue?
Yes. Of course. I’m so up-to-speed I know you have to say (as of today) “black and minority ethnic” or BAME, rather than “ethnic minority”, as that is now deemed pejorative. Who knows what will be the accepted terminology tomorrow.
I actually have more sympathy for people who get words wrong, for this reason: the “politically correct” words keep changing. In my lifetime we’ve gone from colored to black to Afro-Caribbean to people of color to blah blah. It’s insane and I forgive people who fuck up.
But the tropes of anti-Semitism (hook noses, gloating bankers, etc) have NOT changed in a hundred years, which is why ignorance of them is much more unforgivable.
So you don't know why it is offensive. I suggest you find out before judging others.
Yes, I know why it is offensive. It implies whiteness is the default and normal setting. Plus it was used during the era of everyday racism. Yawn. Next question.
The ERG and DUP are nutjobs and deserve to lose Brexit.
I expect there will be huge anger amongst more saner Tories against them and they really are taking a huge gamble.
Sammy Wilson saying voting the deal down will allow May to go back to Brussels and re-negotiate "from a position of strength..." Jesus wept.
He’s demented and if the DUP back no deal they’re in big trouble . A majority of DUP voters want a soft Brexit not no deal .
One would have thought the ONE thing they would be desperate to avoid is a GE. They would be lucky to hit 10 MPs again, and spectacularly lucky to hold the balance of power. That, however, seems to be what they are facilitating. But who I am to say?
Comments
Goodness knows what the way back will be now. Unless of course the EU being the EU and TM being TM we are not quite at the 59th minute of the 11th hour??
Presumably TM will head to Brussels tomorrow evening to get a piece of paper saying “we really really mean it, promise” which could tip the balance...
I'm thinking that might not hold up.
How many of those who were swigging champers after they helped keep May in power giving her the VONC are now thinking "bollocks....." What has held the Tory party together in recent years has been the desire to block Boris. Well, turning tha inot backing for May means they are paying a high price for that now.
If we’d kept membership of the single market and customs union I might have voted Leave.
As a child of Thatcher I consider the single market her second finest achievement.
May's best move would be to announce an extension application as soon as her deal is voted down. At least that would allow her to retain a bit of ability to steer events.
It was noticeable during her opening speech when she was challenged on the point that we need an extension even if the deal is agreed, she didn't deny it but simply said it would be subject to discussion between the parties.
The alternatives - if you're a tory at least - are much worse. No Deal might have been an option 2 years ago, but we've not prepared therefore the risk is too great, while those wishing for Ref2 or Remain will surely see their party split and democracy undermined for generations. And worst of all, what happens next may be totally out of their control.
So in short, do the f***ing deal. You'll regret it if you don't one way or the other.
That 10% lead this morning was unfortunately timed.
Imagine how awful the debates will be.
I also didn't want May after Cameron left nor in December.
She needs to go whatever happens - this is a terrible failure.
But she wont get the chance
When I first saw it I thought it was actually a hoax, or some kind of parody, I didn’t believe anyone could go out and paint that, on a wall, in East London.
So if you didn’t see the anti-Semitism you either have no education, or you are very dim, and there’s an end to it.
I know. It is quite bizarre. Apparently super smart people without a bloody clue. Is it a mental disease?
https://twitter.com/DavidLearmount/status/1105409712399532033
https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corbyn-statement-house-commons-2/
Must be just the pointless analogy Corbyn was looking for all morning.
Other gems, a Hotel California or Royston Vasey Brexit, where we never leave subject to a peoples' confirmatory vote or referendum.
There is only one terse response to Corbyn's position, i.e. Geoffrey Cox's reply to Jon Snow.
We hold all the cards which means we’re headed for sunlit uplands.
Those German carmakers forced Merkel to give us a good deal.
The biggest myth perpetuated by people like you is that there was such a thing as the status quo and that the alternative to what we have now was settled membership of the EU. All you would have been doing would be delaying the inevitable and making the situation all the worse. Which is exactly what will happen if we revoke now.
It is you one nation Tories who have played down the problems of EU membership and happily watched as we got drawn ever further into their power that are the root cause of this issue. If the Tories had had any balls we would never have got to this point.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1105498473183485953
If you don't want a delay, vote for the deal...
One of my sons, who travels the Asia-Pacific area as an exporter says that's how we're coming across there. Kevin Rudds' remarks the other day remarks couldn't be construed as complimentary either, even by Australian standards.
I actually have more sympathy for people who get words wrong, for this reason: the “politically correct” words keep changing. In my lifetime we’ve gone from colored to black to Afro-Caribbean to people of color to blah blah. It’s insane and I forgive people who fuck up.
But the tropes of anti-Semitism (hook noses, gloating bankers, etc) have NOT changed in a hundred years, which is why ignorance of them is much more unforgivable.
I expect there will be huge anger amongst more saner Tories against them and they really are taking a huge gamble.
Uber is a great example, previously everywhere had a local taxi firm now there is a single app you download and that can be used wherever you are (although not in Sofia).
It is the advent of technology that had facilitated the gig economy.
Jesus wept.
Other nations simply abjured their awkward referendum results, or overruled them. We are going through embarrassing paroxysms BECAUSE we are an ancient democracy, and we see the people’s will as important. If people want to laugh and point from foreign parts, fuck ‘em. We are British and we take these things very seriously. Hence the anarchy. It would be so much easier if we could all be like Dominic Grieve, or China, and ignore the proles.
If you believe an extension or no Brexit is wrong that doesn't make the deal right. It can also be wrong. If Parliament is only willing to accept bad choices then that doesn't make them right.
Brexit is merely a Christmas special in a long series of dysfunction.
He's one of those people who leaves their home country and thinks that the best way to ingratiate themselves into their new environment is compare their home country unfavourably in every aspect when compared to their new host.
We should utterly condemn our political class who have dragged it into the gutter.
The problem is two months won’t be enough for that. The ERG and DUP might get behind a longer extension if a “true believer “ is in charge .
As for your hypocrisy, my comment wasn't aimed at you, but as it happens you've just reprimanded @SeantT for allegedly not doing enough research into why 'coloured' has been moved into the no-go list. I would put it to you gently that any accidental negative connotations of this once common word are utterly trivial compared with a mural directly echoing Nazi and other propaganda which was deliberately designed to stir up hatred and which contributed to a moral insanity unprecedented in history. Perhaps you should reflect on that, and on why you have never troubled to educate yourself on it, before accusing Sean of neglect.
That, however, seems to be what they are facilitating.
But who I am to say?