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  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    The poor little isis bride Shamima Begum is so misunderstood -

    KILLER NAME ISIS bride Shamima Begum names baby son Jarrah ‘after barbaric jihadi warlord who massacred Jews’ at the request of her terrorist husband

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8450050/shamima-begum-isis-named-baby-jarrah-husband/

    From the BBC interview:

    ' Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.

    She watched videos of the murders of British hostages, she told the BBC, but said she did not know the names of any of the victims.

    Our correspondent said that "throughout the interview, Shamima Begum continued to espouse Islamic State philosophy." He added: "When I asked her about the enslavement, murder and rape of Yazidi women by IS, she said 'Shia do the same in Iraq'." '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47276572
    She also think the Manchester bombing was fair game.
    I wonder if she thinks anyone killing her in this country would be fair game ?
    Well she was in this country when a british soldier was murdered on the london streets and two british hostages were beheaded by isis but it didn't stop her running away to become a jihadi bride.
    Did she run off to become a jihadi bride? Or simply a jihadi?

    If she comes back to this country she should be charged with treason and jailed for life.
    She wanted to join isis so probably jihadi at first but when needs must a jihadi bride.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620

    Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
  • https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1097625570010120195

    'patter'
    'flipping'
    'legend'
    'Mate'
    'fella'

    God, I hate that shite.

    The faux working class schtick of the middle class Corbynistas is one of the worst aspects of this shitshow.

    For balance, Darren Grimes 'eeee I'm just a simple Geordie, divvent ye knaaaar' is equally irritating.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620

    The poor little isis bride Shamima Begum is so misunderstood -

    KILLER NAME ISIS bride Shamima Begum names baby son Jarrah ‘after barbaric jihadi warlord who massacred Jews’ at the request of her terrorist husband

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8450050/shamima-begum-isis-named-baby-jarrah-husband/

    From the BBC interview:

    ' Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.

    She watched videos of the murders of British hostages, she told the BBC, but said she did not know the names of any of the victims.

    Our correspondent said that "throughout the interview, Shamima Begum continued to espouse Islamic State philosophy." He added: "When I asked her about the enslavement, murder and rape of Yazidi women by IS, she said 'Shia do the same in Iraq'." '

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47276572
    She also think the Manchester bombing was fair game.
    I wonder if she thinks anyone killing her in this country would be fair game ?
    Well she was in this country when a british soldier was murdered on the london streets and two british hostages were beheaded by isis but it didn't stop her running away to become a jihadi bride.
    Did she run off to become a jihadi bride? Or simply a jihadi?

    If she comes back to this country she should be charged with treason and jailed for life.
    She wanted to join isis so probably jihadi at first but when needs must a jihadi bride.
    I think the media should be ashamed of themselves for giving her a platform. There is no news value in letting her spout nonsense on TV or in print.
  • AnotherEngineerAnotherEngineer Posts: 64
    edited February 2019
    Scott_P said:
    I remember visiting those before they were demolished. What a shame that was. He also closed down the adult education centres claiming they were "too Middle Class", this being code for the same reason the greenhouses were knocked down.

    I have an original "taxi" letter in the drawer, as my mother was a teacher. She carried on working despite being "sacked", of course.


    Most of Corbyn's supporters will be too young to remember all this, though, so I don't suppose admitting Hatton will make much difference.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,893
    RoyalBlue said:


    Israel is now unofficially working with the Gulf states (Qatar excepted) as part of their proxy war with Iran. Netanyahu knows that this makes Israel more secure than it has ever been, so he can afford some historical truth-telling. I’m not sure it’s a good long-term strategy.

    Qatar's new Rafales have the Israeli Targo2 helmet display and targeting system (and a great piece of kit it is too). It's just business...
  • I think I have found something going worse than trumps presidency and brexit negotiations...tottenhams new stadium!

    Tottenham Hotspur new stadium move delayed until April at earliest
  • Scott_P said:
    I remember visiting those before they were demolished. What a shame that was. He also closed down the adult education centres claiming they were "Too Middle Class", which was code for the same reason.

    I have an original "taxi" letter in the drawer, as my mother was a teacher. She carried on working despite being "sacked", of course.


    Most of Corbyn's supporters will be too young to remember all this, though, so I don't suppose admitting Hatton will make much difference.

    The play/series GBH summed it all up nicely.

    Time for a repeat showing?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620
    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620

    I think I have found something going worse than trumps presidency and brexit negotiations...tottenhams new stadium!

    Tottenham Hotspur new stadium move delayed until April at earliest

    Is it being built by the same people doing Crossrail?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Scott_P said:
    I remember visiting those before they were demolished. What a shame that was. He also closed down the adult education centres claiming they were "Too Middle Class", which was code for the same reason.

    I have an original "taxi" letter in the drawer, as my mother was a teacher. She carried on working despite being "sacked", of course.


    Most of Corbyn's supporters will be too young to remember all this, though, so I don't suppose admitting Hatton will make much difference.

    The play/series GBH summed it all up nicely.

    Time for a repeat showing?
    Ah bollocks, you are ahead of me. I'd just logged on to say time to get a viewing of GBH again.
  • Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    Taking stock of the events and reactions today that followed the initial announcement, it looks like there could be many more leaving in the days to come. The genie is out of the bottle and Corbyn and his supporters are doing absolutely nothing to try and put it back in.

    It seems appropriate that this also happened on a symbolic day when memories of the 1980s were revived:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/derek-hatton-been-allowed-back-14017366
  • Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
    The Labour party she and others joined doesn't exist anymore. Or at the very least is on life support.

    It has been infiltrated and taken over by a Marxist Cult.

    The only surprise is why the major unions have gone along with all this (except Red Len, who is, well Red).

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The play/series GBH summed it all up nicely.

    Time for a repeat showing?

    Allegedly the greenhouses were the inspiration for the play
  • Y0kel said:

    Scott_P said:
    I remember visiting those before they were demolished. What a shame that was. He also closed down the adult education centres claiming they were "Too Middle Class", which was code for the same reason.

    I have an original "taxi" letter in the drawer, as my mother was a teacher. She carried on working despite being "sacked", of course.


    Most of Corbyn's supporters will be too young to remember all this, though, so I don't suppose admitting Hatton will make much difference.

    The play/series GBH summed it all up nicely.

    Time for a repeat showing?
    Ah bollocks, you are ahead of me. I'd just logged on to say time to get a viewing of GBH again.
    :+1:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,807
    edited February 2019

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...

    http://www.governorbranstad2010.com/img/nascar-jokes-left-turn.png
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,194
    Yes - but you won't care

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620

    Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
    The Labour party she and others joined doesn't exist anymore. Or at the very least is on life support.

    It has been infiltrated and taken over by a Marxist Cult.

    The only surprise is why the major unions have gone along with all this (except Red Len, who is, well Red).

    I agree - the Labour Party died when it failed to get rid of Corbyn after the VONC.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,916

    I think these 7 have f****d it. Quite possibly saved Jeremy Corbyn. I mean The Daily Mail attacking Corbyn and his bags of potatoes? It could not look much worse if Tony Blair had appeared at their launch event.

    I don't follow your reasoning. What it has done is exposed the Jew hate within the party and that is a huge electoral turnoff.
    But also mostly untrue.
    Mostly?????
  • I think these 7 have f****d it. Quite possibly saved Jeremy Corbyn. I mean The Daily Mail attacking Corbyn and his bags of potatoes? It could not look much worse if Tony Blair had appeared at their launch event.

    I don't follow your reasoning. What it has done is exposed the Jew hate within the party and that is a huge electoral turnoff.
    But also mostly untrue.
    Are you calling ms Berger a liar?
    With regards to police protection at Labour Conference the police called her a liar.

    With respect to where the AS abuse comes from she is economical with the truth you would think it was mainly from Corbynites when its actually mainly from Right Wingers not in the Labour Party.

    If any party members have used AS against her they should be kicked out. It is completely unacceptable
    If you don't see the scale of the Antisemitism, it's because you've chosen not to see it.

    The police didn't call her a liar, they made clear that she only needed protection outside the secure zone, and the Antisemites made this into some sort of "Ahhh so she didn't need it inside the actual conference hall" gotcha, in defiance of reality.

    The AS abuse comes mainly from the left. Have a look, any tweet, any Facebook post, follow the people with the vile abuse, join the hardcore Corbynite Facebook groups. The problem is mainly with the left, as 86% of Jews will tell you. That's increasingly true across Western Europe - the far right is the 3rd most likely group to commit threatening or violent Antisemitic acts.

    "If" any party members have used AS against her. If. You're having a laugh. It's a constant flowing sewer. Even the guy they put up to propose the no-confidence vote against her called her a "Disruptive Zionist", nudge nudge wink wink.
  • Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
    The Labour party she and others joined doesn't exist anymore. Or at the very least is on life support.

    It has been infiltrated and taken over by a Marxist Cult.

    The only surprise is why the major unions have gone along with all this (except Red Len, who is, well Red).

    I agree - the Labour Party died when it failed to get rid of Corbyn after the VONC.
    That combined with their egos and arrogance being multiplied exponentially since the 2017 election.

    Many of the Labour voters did so not because they loved Corbyn or the far left, but because they didn't like the Tories/Brexit and wanted to prevent a huge Tory landslide majority. And because there was no viable alternative.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Best hope May doesn't get pictured doing something mundane during a crisis.
    Yeh. Not sure the Mail has got this right. Having an allotment, making jam and watching Arsenal are not the fundamental reasons to criticise JC.
    I get the point they want to make, but I don't know why they've framed the story around that point rather than just focus on the crisis, the condemnations about antisemitism and such.
    Because political journalists are so out of touch that any interest outside politics is considered "weird", quirky or even downright suspicious.
    They never fail to introduce Ken Clarke as jazz-loving, or Major as MCC member, etc.
    The general public don't see it that way. Am reminded of the pearl clutching when Corbyn was photographed at an Arsenal game during the GE campaign. Regular people have interests and hobbies and don't think it controversial when politicians do.
    It cuts both ways, remember the pear clutching when Cameron forgot which football team he supports. :smiley:
    Or the banana clutching when David Miliband stopped for a fruity snack at conference
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    He wanted them deselected and replaced, not voting against him in the lobbies
    Well they're not going to be voting against him in most votes I would have thought. On Brexit, sure, and a vote of no confidence in the government (not out of liking the government though). How much else do they actually disagree with him on? As a group?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,807
    edited February 2019
    Are those two separate polls, or is that some poll they did where they gave people two sets of options ie with and without the tiggers?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620
    Scott_P said:
    As of yet, there is no new centrist party.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Are those two separate polls, or is that some poll they did where they gave people two sets of options ie with and without the tiggers?

    They did normal VI then prompted same respondents with 'new centre party' etc and asked again
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Are those two separate polls, or is that some poll they did where they gave people two sets of options ie with and without the tiggers?

    Two sets of options, same poll, was my reading.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Are those two separate polls, or is that some poll they did where they gave people two sets of options ie with and without the tiggers?

    Good question.
  • dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    He wanted them deselected and replaced, not voting against him in the lobbies
    Well they're not going to be voting against him in most votes I would have thought. On Brexit, sure, and a vote of no confidence in the government (not out of liking the government though). How much else do they actually disagree with him on? As a group?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Does the centre ground on foreign policy belong to Jezza? Hates NATO, US, EU. Loves Russia, Iran. Has Milne as his director of, well, everything: someone who appears to believe Mao was essentially correct.
  • A customer who called a bank to apply for a loan was told "all vegans should be punched in the face".

    I am not quite sure that fits the slogan of “helpful banking”....and good job they don’t really stick to “we are what we do”.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Should be noted Survation heavily caveating this and suggest reading intra and inter party movement and effects the thing to look at not the putative headline figure for a non existant party
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    edited February 2019
    https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1097637395934130176

    I'll be honest I've been wondering about this.


    Scott_P said:

    They are doing better than I thought but that is without really being introduced to the MPs and their policies so plenty of time for that to change.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    philiph said:
    New centrist party + old centrist party = 14, so clear centrist surge.

    Take 14 off if Blair campaigns for it.

    Blair has been told to keep his silence and distance from them 🙃
  • I think I have found something going worse than trumps presidency and brexit negotiations...tottenhams new stadium!

    Tottenham Hotspur new stadium move delayed until April at earliest

    But unfair... The delay this time is solely down to Crystal Palace winning their FA cup tie so our prem league match at home to them on Mar 15th has to be rearranged.... We've no other home games bar the arsenal game on 2nd march which is at Wembley.
  • Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1097639773429211137

    Even more impressive when the party doesn’t even exist yet...:
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Time for Odges call it quits and retire.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour are rooked.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712
    edited February 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Poor LDs.

    But it's worse, since the party doesn't exist yet.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    He wanted them deselected and replaced, not voting against him in the lobbies
    Well they're not going to be voting against him in most votes I would have thought. On Brexit, sure, and a vote of no confidence in the government (not out of liking the government though). How much else do they actually disagree with him on? As a group?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Chuka was also part of a cross party parliamentary group in 2016 that made comments along the lines of Labour being no more anti semitic than other parties.

    It seems to have been since Corbyn did well in the 2017 election and the right looked further from power in the party that Labour has become institutionally racist.
  • I think I have found something going worse than trumps presidency and brexit negotiations...tottenhams new stadium!

    Tottenham Hotspur new stadium move delayed until April at earliest

    But unfair... The delay this time is solely down to Crystal Palace winning their FA cup tie so our prem league match at home to them on Mar 15th has to be rearranged.... We've no other home games bar the arsenal game on 2nd march which is at Wembley.
    May as well just call it a day and aim for start of next season now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,523

    https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1097637395934130176

    I'll be honest I've been wondering about this.




    Scott_P said:

    They are doing better than I thought but that is without really being introduced to the MPs and their policies so plenty of time for that to change.
    Pause for thought for those Tories thinking of defecting.......
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,807
    edited February 2019
    There is also a host of supplementary questions....at the bottom of the link.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6718625/Leader-whos-lost-plot.html
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    He wanted them deselected and replaced, not voting against him in the lobbies
    Well they're not going to be voting against him in most votes I would have thought. On Brexit, sure, and a vote of no confidence in the government (not out of liking the government though). How much else do they actually disagree with him on? As a group?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Does the centre ground on foreign policy belong to Jezza? Hates NATO, US, EU. Loves Russia, Iran. Has Milne as his director of, well, everything: someone who appears to believe Mao was essentially correct.
    I agree. For "dots" read "dotty"
  • dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    He wanted them deselected and replaced, not voting against him in the lobbies
    Well they're not going to be voting against him in most votes I would have thought. On Brexit, sure, and a vote of no confidence in the government (not out of liking the government though). How much else do they actually disagree with him on? As a group?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Chuka was also part of a cross party parliamentary group in 2016 that made comments along the lines of Labour being no more anti semitic than other parties.

    It seems to have been since Corbyn did well in the 2017 election and the right looked further from power in the party that Labour has become institutionally racist.
    Since 2016 and since 2017 especially the far left have increasingly felt it is ok to be openly institutionally racist and Corbyn tolerates it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712
    If she thinks a few deselections will mean there is nothing left of the moderate centre ground of the party at all then you would have to assume so.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    If the new grouping/party/whatever survives for any time, it's really going to mess up the polling.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620
    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,378
    edited February 2019

    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    Snip in here. s a group?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Chuka was also part of a cross party parliamentary group in 2016 that made comments along the lines of Labour being no more anti semitic than other parties.

    It seems to have been since Corbyn did well in the 2017 election and the right looked further from power in the party that Labour has become institutionally racist.
    Nothing to do with any change in the make up of the membership?
    Nothing to do with the unequivocal support the leader gives to Palestinian causes giving the more extreme supporters the confidence and freedom to express As views publicly?
    Nothing to do with any retribution for expressing AS views amounting to no punishment in most cases?

    The views are legitimised by the actions of the leadership and party machinary.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828

    https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1097637395934130176

    I'll be honest I've been wondering about this.




    Scott_P said:

    They are doing better than I thought but that is without really being introduced to the MPs and their policies so plenty of time for that to change.
    Pause for thought for those Tories thinking of defecting.......
    It is why I was in a few minds about Angela's funny tinge comments, I'd like them to draw in a few tories before they let loose the likes of Angela Smith and Mike Gapes on the microphones.

  • From the polling, seems people think they were right to leave, jezza at fault and he is a threat to
    National security, but the break away MPs should hold by-elections.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    If she thinks a few deselections will mean there is nothing left of the moderate centre ground of the party at all then you would have to assume so.
    really?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,893

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...

    http://www.governorbranstad2010.com/img/nascar-jokes-left-turn.png
    Three rounds of this year's NASCAR series are run on racetracks with right and left turns so that makes no sense.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    There is also a host of supplementary questions....at the bottom of the link.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6718625/Leader-whos-lost-plot.html

    Well the Mail is certainly getting carried away. Up to 50?!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    kle4 said:

    If she thinks a few deselections will mean there is nothing left of the moderate centre ground of the party at all then you would have to assume so.
    really?
    If a few people being ousted, including oneself, is all that remains of the sensible wing of a party, then it surely has to be time to go even if not ousted?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,807
    edited February 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...

    http://www.governorbranstad2010.com/img/nascar-jokes-left-turn.png
    Three rounds of this year's NASCAR series are run on racetracks with right and left turns so that makes no sense.
    I know....it’s very old joke /meme when they only used to race on ovals. They still race something like 20 on left turn only ovals.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Is this the Labour party? Is there a prize?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712
    edited February 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...

    http://www.governorbranstad2010.com/img/nascar-jokes-left-turn.png
    Three rounds of this year's NASCAR series are run on racetracks with right and left turns so that makes no sense.
    Most people don't know enough about NASCAR to know if it does not make sense, so it works.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    edited February 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
    The Labour party she and others joined doesn't exist anymore. Or at the very least is on life support.

    It has been infiltrated and taken over by a Marxist Cult.

    The only surprise is why the major unions have gone along with all this (except Red Len, who is, well Red).

    I agree - the Labour Party died when it failed to get rid of Corbyn after the VONC.
    I disagree. There has not been that many Marxist cultists in the country for the last seventy years. Marxist cultists would have made more noise about the 2017 manifesto being such social democratic drivel. Corbyn and McDonnell themeslves and the people around them in shadow cabinet aren’t that left wing. To see the answer look no further than nick P and bigjohn, they ain’t Marxists, but they are corbynite. They are The stormtroopers of corbynism.

    For me the key moment is team corbyn showed too much hubris and triumphalism in the summer of 17 (and to this day in fact!) Moderates wanted to come back in, and that was the moment to have started building a broader coalition, not because it would have been nice or easy, it would have been hard work, but it would have lent credibility to policies and cemented that support from voters that looks ethereal to me. The art of political power is to build such arrangements between you and them, for example if May had kept Davis, rabb, and boris in cabinet she would have passed a deal by now.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,620
    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    If this new group does become a party then it needs a better leader than Chuka. All the reasons why he withdrew from the leadership process a few years ago still hold true and the press would love nothing more than to take him down.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    My post from this morning:

    "Prediction: 10% in the immediate polls, with their support being drawn roughly evenly from the Lib Dems and Labour (maybe 1-2% off the Tories at a real push)."

    Survation says they've only slightly underperformed that. And says they've drawn 4% from the Lib Dems, 2% from Labour, and 1% from the Tories. Not the worst prediction I ever made.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,213

    Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
    The Labour party she and others joined doesn't exist anymore. Or at the very least is on life support.

    It has been infiltrated and taken over by a Marxist Cult.

    The only surprise is why the major unions have gone along with all this (except Red Len, who is, well Red).

    I agree - the Labour Party died when it failed to get rid of Corbyn after the VONC.
    That combined with their egos and arrogance being multiplied exponentially since the 2017 election.

    Many of the Labour voters did so not because they loved Corbyn or the far left, but because they didn't like the Tories/Brexit and wanted to prevent a huge Tory landslide majority. And because there was no viable alternative.
    Ive been sayin* for a while on here that the confluence of Labour expecting to be well behind, or just behind, and Mays wish for a large majority to ram through Brexit and whatever other policies she wanted, gave a strong reason to vote labour as the only real way of stopping her. This has been interpreted as support for Corbyn brand of socialism.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    If this new group does become a party then it needs a better leader than Chuka. All the reasons why he withdrew from the leadership process a few years ago still hold true and the press would love nothing more than to take him down.
    I kept an eye out for chuck in the 2016 campaign, because I expected great things from him with that stage. But what I saw of him in ref campaign he was shite.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    Did they jump before they were pushed though?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    If this new group does become a party then it needs a better leader than Chuka. All the reasons why he withdrew from the leadership process a few years ago still hold true and the press would love nothing more than to take him down.
    I really don't know who could be the leader of such a group, since (and this may happen anyway) they will surely have baggage which they are seen, well, as nothing but a Labour splinter group.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    philiph said:

    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    Snip in here. s a group?

    Chuka was also part of a cross party parliamentary group in 2016 that made comments along the lines of Labour being no more anti semitic than other parties.

    It seems to have been since Corbyn did well in the 2017 election and the right looked further from power in the party that Labour has become institutionally racist.
    Nothing to do with any change in the make up of the membership?
    Nothing to do with the unequivocal support the leader gives to Palestinian causes giving the more extreme supporters the confidence and freedom to express As views publicly?
    Nothing to do with any retribution for expressing AS views amounting to no punishment in most cases?

    The views are legitimised by the actions of the leadership and party machinary.
    Bans for consistent blockquote offenders IMO...

    The party membership hasn't changed a whole lot since 2016, the vast majority were already in by then.

    The last leader gave support to Palestinian causes as well, same policies of recognising Palestine and stopping weapon sales to Israel.

    We'll see what kind of punishment the group gives Angela Smith, will she even get a suspension I wonder?

    Chuka doesn't give a damn about racism, some of the people's vote crowd are annoyed that Chuka seemed to be maneuvering for himself rather than for their cause.

    Chuka came to this view when it suited his purposes because Chuka is about Chuka.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828

    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Chuka was also part of a cross party parliamentary group in 2016 that made comments along the lines of Labour being no more anti semitic than other parties.

    It seems to have been since Corbyn did well in the 2017 election and the right looked further from power in the party that Labour has become institutionally racist.
    Since 2016 and since 2017 especially the far left have increasingly felt it is ok to be openly institutionally racist and Corbyn tolerates it.
    Ahh yes pure coincidence that as Chuka looked further from power Labour become institutionally racist according to him, poor loyal limelight avoiding foot soldier Chuka forced out into the bright lights...

    A reluctant hero for our times.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    If she thinks a few deselections will mean there is nothing left of the moderate centre ground of the party at all then you would have to assume so.
    really?
    If a few people being ousted, including oneself, is all that remains of the sensible wing of a party, then it surely has to be time to go even if not ousted?
    "sensible" is a big ask of a politician
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    Did they jump before they were pushed though?
    Probably. They still did not need to jump, they could have bowed out, capitulated and begged for mercy from the Momentum hordes or whatever. It would still have been a tough and emotional choice to jump, it has no doubt burned some bridges that would have stayed in place had they been pushed out. I want to see what they can make of this, and I've always felt more parties would be better in our system even if we don't go full chaotic PR. The big two use the broad coalition/tent justification for clearly incompatible people and ideas staying in the same party because it is too hard to do otherwise.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,893
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...

    http://www.governorbranstad2010.com/img/nascar-jokes-left-turn.png
    Three rounds of this year's NASCAR series are run on racetracks with right and left turns so that makes no sense.
    Most people don't know enough about NASCAR to know if it does not make sense, so it works.
    NASCAR must be the best managed motorsport series in existence. F1 could learn a lot from it...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    If she thinks a few deselections will mean there is nothing left of the moderate centre ground of the party at all then you would have to assume so.
    really?
    If a few people being ousted, including oneself, is all that remains of the sensible wing of a party, then it surely has to be time to go even if not ousted?
    "sensible" is a big ask of a politician
    Each will self assess what counts as sensible. If she thinks there's so little of that left, or so little to appeal to moderate centre ground types, then its time to go.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    dots said:

    Jonathan said:

    Labour, condemned to the Corbyn of history. Disaster.

    The irony the biggest serial rebel couldn’t tolerate dissent or other views. Didn’t call off the attack dogs. Drove his own MPs away.

    Corbyn is not Labour.

    I thought Berger spoke very powerfully today, not just on antisemitism, but why she joined labour and what that it stood for.
    Given her grandfather is Manny Shinwell, it would have been quite something if she hadn't joined Labour.

    However, she was the most fluent and persuasive speaker at the launch. Gapes made some decent points. But the rest were a waste of space.

    Chuka has such a bizarre speech pattern that it is just too much effort to listen to him say anything.
    The Labour party she and others joined doesn't exist anymore. Or at the very least is on life support.

    It has been infiltrated and taken over by a Marxist Cult.

    The only surprise is why the major unions have gone along with all this (except Red Len, who is, well Red).

    I agree - the Labour Party died when it failed to get rid of Corbyn after the VONC.
    I disagree. There has not been that many Marxist cultists in the country for the last seventy years. Marxist cultists would have made more noise about the 2017 manifesto being such social democratic drivel. Corbyn and McDonnell themeslves and the people around them in shadow cabinet aren’t that left wing. To see the answer look no further than nick P and bigjohn, they ain’t Marxists, but they are corbynite. They are The stormtroopers of corbynism.

    For me the key moment is team corbyn showed too much hubris and triumphalism in the summer of 17 (and to this day in fact!) Moderates wanted to come back in, and that was the moment to have started building a broader coalition, not because it would have been nice or easy, it would have been hard work, but it would have lent credibility to policies and cemented that support from voters that looks ethereal to me. The art of political power is to build such arrangements between you and them, for example if May had kept Davis, rabb, and boris in cabinet she would have passed a deal by now.
    It really should be "dotty" - they're not joined up!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,807
    edited February 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...

    http://www.governorbranstad2010.com/img/nascar-jokes-left-turn.png
    Three rounds of this year's NASCAR series are run on racetracks with right and left turns so that makes no sense.
    Most people don't know enough about NASCAR to know if it does not make sense, so it works.
    NASCAR must be the best managed motorsport series in existence. F1 could learn a lot from it...
    Errrhhh isn’t it in trouble. Tv and in person attendances right down, sponsors pulling out, teams in big financial trouble, etc?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/auto-racing/a-sale-of-nascar-was-once-unthinkable-now-it-may-be-overdue/2018/05/17/8a1742b4-577b-11e8-8836-a4a123c359ab_story.html

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davecaldwell/2018/05/02/stock-car-fans-continue-racing-away-from-nascar/
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,006
    EMA after Survation poll:

    Con 39% Lab 37%

    Con 311
    LAB 260
    LD 17
    UKIP 0
    Grn 1
    PC 3
    SNP 40

    Tories 15 short of overall majority

    Con + DUP 321 seats
    Lab + all other parties 321 seats
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712
    Barnesian said:

    EMA after Survation poll:

    Con 39% Lab 37%

    Con 311
    LAB 260
    LD 17
    UKIP 0
    Grn 1
    PC 3
    SNP 40

    Tories 15 short of overall majority

    Con + DUP 321 seats
    Lab + all other parties 321 seats

    Ha. Just what we need.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,916
    Scott_P said:
    The sad thing is, that I was coincidentally looking at that speech on YouTube a week ago, and all the comments were "ew! Europhile!". People forget how much bloody hard work it took to get from there to here, and Kinnock played a major part in that.
  • dots said:



    For me the key moment is team corbyn showed too much hubris and triumphalism in the summer of 17 (and to this day in fact!) Moderates wanted to come back in, and that was the moment to have started building a broader coalition, not because it would have been nice or easy, it would have been hard work, but it would have lent credibility to policies and cemented that support from voters that looks ethereal to me. The art of political power is to build such arrangements between you and them, for example if May had kept Davis, rabb, and boris in cabinet she would have passed a deal by now.

    As a Labour member of 41 years who finally cancelled his direct debit 10 minutes ago, I agree with you.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,858

    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surely worth remembering that Jezza and co wanted rid of these 7 MP’s

    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Chuka was also part of a cross party parliamentary group in 2016 that made comments along the lines of Labour being no more anti semitic than other parties.

    It seems to have been since Corbyn did well in the 2017 election and the right looked further from power in the party that Labour has become institutionally racist.
    Since 2016 and since 2017 especially the far left have increasingly felt it is ok to be openly institutionally racist and Corbyn tolerates it.
    Ahh yes pure coincidence that as Chuka looked further from power Labour become institutionally racist according to him, poor loyal limelight avoiding foot soldier Chuka forced out into the bright lights...

    A reluctant hero for our times.
    Do you think Chuka is a) closer to, or b) further away from power than he was 24 hours ago?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    Did they jump before they were pushed though?
    Probably. They still did not need to jump, they could have bowed out, capitulated and begged for mercy from the Momentum hordes or whatever. It would still have been a tough and emotional choice to jump, it has no doubt burned some bridges that would have stayed in place had they been pushed out. I want to see what they can make of this, and I've always felt more parties would be better in our system even if we don't go full chaotic PR. The big two use the broad coalition/tent justification for clearly incompatible people and ideas staying in the same party because it is too hard to do otherwise.
    I think you're placing them too high up on the moral high ground
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,932

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...
    This one ?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BP_OPJoszjU
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    If she thinks a few deselections will mean there is nothing left of the moderate centre ground of the party at all then you would have to assume so.
    really?
    If a few people being ousted, including oneself, is all that remains of the sensible wing of a party, then it surely has to be time to go even if not ousted?
    "sensible" is a big ask of a politician
    Each will self assess what counts as sensible. If she thinks there's so little of that left, or so little to appeal to moderate centre ground types, then its time to go.
    I agree, she should fuck off
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    Did they jump before they were pushed though?
    Probably. They still did not need to jump, they could have bowed out, capitulated and begged for mercy from the Momentum hordes or whatever. It would still have been a tough and emotional choice to jump, it has no doubt burned some bridges that would have stayed in place had they been pushed out. I want to see what they can make of this, and I've always felt more parties would be better in our system even if we don't go full chaotic PR. The big two use the broad coalition/tent justification for clearly incompatible people and ideas staying in the same party because it is too hard to do otherwise.
    I think you're placing them too high up on the moral high ground
    I don't think I am. I know their prospects as avowed critics of the leadership were low, and they might have been deselected anyway, and they have scored to settle. They might prove no better than anyone they claim to hate (certainly I would be skeptical they will actually operate any differently if they form a new party, it will be just new tribalism). But that doesn't diminish that it would have been a hard thing to do, and after so much whinging we have to be fair to them that they stood up to be counted. They might be awful, but that took balls.
  • Nigelb said:

    I don't think there can be any doubt that Hatton is back

    https://twitter.com/DegsyHatton/status/1097600464567369728

    Labour are following the strategy of a nascar driver...
    This one ?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BP_OPJoszjU
    Thread winner...that had to be a secret Zionist plot right?
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    How much else do they actually disagree with him on?
    red on red like Thatchers two landslides in the eighties? 🤔

    When asked to spell out clear differences between themselves and Labour, Chucks 7 list the fact the whole Labour Party is institutionally anti Semite (implying entryism has made it this way, because just a few years ago it wasn’t on the radar, certainly not when the son of Jewish refugee was leader, though some Blairite electioneering such as Howard as Fagin had a whiff of it), clearly they detest the Labour leader for not being rabidly pro remain as they are, Chucks 7 give impression they won’t honour the 2016 referendum, on C4 Chuck also listed differences on foreign policy, and that’s much more interesting, there is a clear schism in whole Labour movement, with strident views on each side over foreign policy, much to Corbyns advantage as the centre ground belongs to Corbyn and libdems in not wishing to repeat the foreign policy errors of the new labour era.

    Aside from genuine concerns about taking abuse for standing up to antisemitism, whole tigger launch had a huge air of naivety to it imo, old meaningless empty vessels like new kind of politics, away from the tribalism, 21st century time to look forward trotted out oblivious to the fact first past the post knifes their intentions through the heart. With PV, yeah, a chance for them to build a centre ground rival to the libdems, with FPtP no chance for them. They can’t even end up in the libdems with reactionary right wing views on foreign policy. In the Tories under a moderate Cammo or Osborne type leader is natural home for all seven. Will be interesting to see if that’s where they end up
    Does the centre ground on foreign policy belong to Jezza? Hates NATO, US, EU. Loves Russia, Iran. Has Milne as his director of, well, everything: someone who appears to believe Mao was essentially correct.
    I agree. For "dots" read "dotty"
    Yes I do. I think Jez foreign policy has the backing of the Labour membership, its the PLP (and tiggers) out of step in that regard. I don’t think Jez anti Iraq war position and other foreign policy position is all that different than the libdems. I think voters are behind them.
    Perhaps you need to look at yourselves, if you genuinely believe Jez and Milne are more in favour of Iran and Russia than they are british patriots wanting best for Britain.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It is ludicrous to try to contrive polling about a party that does not exist, that may never exist and has certainly not yet got a leadership structure, a policy platform or a political identity.

    People are getting a bit over-excited.

    At the moment we have a couple of minor names and some nobodies having resigned.

    All we know at the moment is that they are against something.

    Well, it has been an exciting day - something actually happened for once - so the fevered speculation will have gotten away from us a bit.

    But I would very much hope that this can keep building, drawing in some more on left and right, and then see if they can come up with something other than the few things they are against. I'd hate for those who have, in the end, been bold enough to make this leap, to be rewarded with a day and done sort of situation.
    Did they jump before they were pushed though?
    Probably. They still did not need to jump, they could have bowed out, capitulated and begged for mercy from the Momentum hordes or whatever. It would still have been a tough and emotional choice to jump, it has no doubt burned some bridges that would have stayed in place had they been pushed out. I want to see what they can make of this, and I've always felt more parties would be better in our system even if we don't go full chaotic PR. The big two use the broad coalition/tent justification for clearly incompatible people and ideas staying in the same party because it is too hard to do otherwise.
    I think you're placing them too high up on the moral high ground
    I don't think I am. I know their prospects as avowed critics of the leadership were low, and they might have been deselected anyway, and they have scored to settle. They might prove no better than anyone they claim to hate (certainly I would be skeptical they will actually operate any differently if they form a new party, it will be just new tribalism). But that doesn't diminish that it would have been a hard thing to do, and after so much whinging we have to be fair to them that they stood up to be counted. They might be awful, but that took balls.
    Being awful takes balls? Redemption at last
This discussion has been closed.