politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast. May fights on – so what now?
Comments
-
Given that NI itself is nearly 50-50 now, you would soon end up with a majority Catholic statelet next to a majority Catholic stateOblitusSumMe said:
My Irish wife said yesterday that she thought the DUP wanted a hard border because they saw it as the way to ensure that demographics didn't lead to a united Ireland as such a border would create a practical division across the islandJosiasJessop said:The DUP are supposed to want to keep NI in the UK.
--> they're risking exactly the opposite.0 -
I bet the ERG wish sir Graham’s shredder hadn’t broken until today. The reports of the Maybot not having a clue what she wants I am sure would have got another 20-30 votes on their side and made mays position untenable.0
-
Nightmare? Keep May, but swap cabinet and shadow cabinet. People would be fleeing to Venezuala within six months.Scott_P said:0 -
Luckyguy1983 said:
That timing was down to Sir Graham.Freggles said:Seems like today would have been a better day to trigger the 48 letters
Nope, it was down to the incompetent quarterwits who utterly mismanaged the mailshot0 -
Mr. M, Ed Miliband was an atrocious Energy secretary. Grayling should remain at Transport.
Edited extra bit: for those reading this without context, it's a discussion about a nightmare government, not a good one.0 -
Who wants to disguise it?algarkirk said:Essential to Tony Blair's position on Today this morning is that the EU has to offer the UK something on FoM very like the offer they conspicuously did not make to David Cameron - which would have led to a very different outcome in 2016. While I am sure they should do exactly that, and hope they will, it would be hard to disguise in that scenario the absolute folly of events prior to Mrs May becoming PM.
A large chunk of the blame for the current mess is attributable to the EU itself, but we are where we are and the voices of Blair, Clarke and other grown-ups need to be listened to if we are going to get out of it.0 -
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.Gardenwalker said:
Is it because they are as fed up with this shitshow as the rest of us?kle4 said:
It does seem to have gone even worse than she could have imagined. MV today as no pretext was provided for delaying.grabcocque said:
She told her party she was going to get "legally binding assurance" about the backstop being undesirable for the EU too. They actually removed that text, and replaced it with text affirming the backstop is there to protect the single market.HYUFD said:
It doesn't actuallygrabcocque said:
Well yes, we could all have told her that. But this communique actually puts her into a worse position than she started in. A remarkable achievement, even for her.HYUFD said:
So even the EU affirm the backstop is seatsgrabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than ?"
Not only has May not gotten what she promised on the backstop from her party or the DUP, she's actually gottent the EUCO to re-affirm their support for it!
This has contrived to make May's impossible parliamentary arithmetic even harder, because she's now lied to her party and DUP (again) about the backstop, and suffered what is being widely reported as a "rebuff", "humiliation", "Salzburg 2.0" and my personal favorite, "diplomatic disaster".
Realpolitik suggests that May is a lame duck and that there is simply no Deal which will get through Parliament. 118 “extremists” and 10 DUPers will put pay to that.
The EU needed to tell May to stop fucking about and find a cross-party solution. She has all the tools necessary to do so (inc A50 extension, A50 revocation, referendum, making the customs union permanent etc).
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
0 -
She is blatant and cynical liar of Trump like dimensions. At various times she has said:Peter_the_Punter said:
That mistrust is widely shared, Morris.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Walker, I agree with you. And with Mr. Meeks. I'm not an EU fan but I simply don't trust May, and I sympathise with them trying to negotiate with her.
She should've known her deal was a non-starter. Maybe she did.
She says she will not allow No Deal, but then she said she wouldn't call a General Election. She also promised a Meaningful Vote. Can we trust her No Deal promise?
Personally I wouldn't want to.
Remaining in the EU is in the national interest.
Leaving the EU is in the national interest.
Not having a GE is in the national interest.
Having a GE is in the national interest.
Not having a referendum is in the national interest.
Complete the sequence...0 -
No. At which point they should just revoke then and there since a public vote on the EU deal or no deal would be pointless.logical_song said:
... and surely they won't.YellowSubmarine said:Does anyone seriously think there aren't already draft Revocation Bills in desk draws all over Westminster ? If we are heading toward no deal in March one or two of them will be introduced and the Lords version will pass. Which means if the government wants no deal it will have to vote for no deal in the Commons by at least denying the Lords bill time and/or the SNP/PC/LD/Green Commons version. The CJEU ruling means the Commons is going to have to vote for no deal.
0 -
No because they did not involve primary legislation. A revocation needs primary legislation.Scott_P said:
Dos the humble address, legal advice, contempt of Parliament episode demonstrate that Parliament can force the Executive to do things it doesn't want to?Richard_Tyndall said:The problem you have there is how do Parliament revoke when that cannot be done without the agreement if the Executive. Scott was contending the other night that the Executive can do it on their own. Now I think he is incorrect but what no one has argued is that Parliament can do it on their own without the agreement of the Executive.
So how do you see us getting to a position where we can revoke as long as the Tories remain in control of the Executive?0 -
May allowed herself to be humiliated - yet again - by making promises she had no hope of keeping. That is no-one's fault but her own. She was not mocked. She was just told what she surely must have known she would be told.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.Gardenwalker said:
Is it because they are as fed up with this shitshow as the rest of us?kle4 said:
It does seem to have gone even worse than she could have imagined. MV today as no pretext was provided for delaying.grabcocque said:
She market.HYUFD said:
It doesn't actuallygrabcocque said:
Well yes, we could all have told her that. But this communique actually puts her into a worse position than she started in. A remarkable achievement, even for her.HYUFD said:
So even the EU affirm the backstop is seatsgrabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than ?"
Not only has May not gotten what she promised on the backstop from her party or the DUP, she's actually gottent the EUCO to re-affirm their support for it!
This has contrived to make May's impossible parliamentary arithmetic even harder, because she's now lied to her party and DUP (again) about the backstop, and suffered what is being widely reported as a "rebuff", "humiliation", "Salzburg 2.0" and my personal favorite, "diplomatic disaster".
Realpolitik suggests that May is a lame duck and that there is simply no Deal which will get through Parliament. 118 “extremists” and 10 DUPers will put pay to that.
The EU needed to tell May to stop fucking about and find a cross-party solution. She has all the tools necessary to do so (inc A50 extension, A50 revocation, referendum, making the customs union permanent etc).
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
0 -
It's also an EU largely composed of very different leaders - Merkel excepted. And she is on the way out.Peter_the_Punter said:
Who wants to disguise it?algarkirk said:Essential to Tony Blair's position on Today this morning is that the EU has to offer the UK something on FoM very like the offer they conspicuously did not make to David Cameron - which would have led to a very different outcome in 2016. While I am sure they should do exactly that, and hope they will, it would be hard to disguise in that scenario the absolute folly of events prior to Mrs May becoming PM.
A large chunk of the blame for the current mess is attributable to the EU itself, but we are where we are and the voices of Blair, Clarke and other grown-ups need to be listened to if we are going to get out of it.
0 -
This was another point of debate the other night. I am not sure we are agreed on that point eitherRichard_Tyndall said:A revocation needs primary legislation.
0 -
I notice May has had to publicly repeat her private assurance to the '22 that she won't lead the Tories into the next scheduled election. Always a moment when a PM says that publicly.0
-
They are now, but not when Cameron went to them.Luckyguy1983 said:
True.AlastairMeeks said:
I have a lot of sympathy with the EU on this. They're negotiating with a blancmange.kle4 said:
So much for helping 'facilitate' things. Couldn't even be arsed to fig leaf it. They really have given up on the deal have their eggs in the Remain basket if They wont even try some classic last minute EU fudge.williamglenn said:
What excuse does May have for not holding the MV now?
Juncker made a big mistake when deciding to play hardball with him.0 -
They weren't exactly private.YellowSubmarine said:I notice May has had to publicly repeat her private assurance to the '22 that she won't lead the Tories into the next scheduled election. Always a moment when a PM says that publicly.
0 -
Morning all,
The May's EU meeting seems to have gone well.0 -
You can respect even an enemy for positive qualities, even where those qualities are misdirected. She has no choice but to change course again whether now or after Xmas no matter how dogged she is. She's the best friend of the EU in trying to find something and they don't care enough to even pretend to care about that any more, which you'd hope will close down labour and Tory unicorn believers at least.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, she's also promised no second referendum.
I do find it interesting people seem to respect May for her dogged determination. It's not a view I share, but is worth noting.
0 -
In a sense, it has. It has been tremendously clarifying.rottenborough said:Morning all,
The May's EU meeting seems to have gone well.0 -
There's a new backstop avoiding proposal over on Conhome. No idea if it's any good but surely May could have just taken that with her rather than being tongue tied when Mutti asked what she wanted.0
-
Its not the most convincing of articles, and the conclusion is not well grounded. And from the photo, Starmer doesn't appear to have got the memo about the dress code?NickPalmer said:
True. Owen Jones is a useful outrider for the leadership on this:SouthamObserver said:
Nick, what we do not have at the moment is any notion that Labour will do all it can to prevent a No Deal Brexit. There is a majority in the House of Commons to prevent one, but it needs Labour to lead. Labour is not doing that. Everything else is detail right now.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/labour-prepare-second-referendum-peoples-vote0 -
Are you referring to Theresa with that?kle4 said:
They believe frightening people is better than enticing people.Nemtynakht said:
I’m unsure what the EU reasoning for this is. There is a possibility that we will be asked in the near future whether we want to change our minds and associate with the EU again, I cannot fathom why they would think this would be a good idea.grabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than at Salzburg.
As predicted, the draft addendum has been salami sliced till there's nothing left. I think EUCO are trying to send May a message: "WHICH PART OF THE DEAL IS FINAL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?"
The EU have merely agreed with her redlines.0 -
We have not been helpful. May is undercut by how divided the country is but she's not exactly helped.AlastairMeeks said:
I have a lot of sympathy with the EU on this. They're negotiating with a blancmange.kle4 said:
So much for helping 'facilitate' things. Couldn't even be arsed to fig leaf it. They really have given up on the deal have their eggs in the Remain basket if They wont even try some classic last minute EU fudge.williamglenn said:
What excuse does May have for not holding the MV now?0 -
Incidentally, why did she need to go in person - no internet in Downing Street? She doesn't know how to text?SouthamObserver said:
May allowed herself to be humiliated - yet again - by making promises she had no hope of keeping. That is no-one's fault but her own. She was not mocked. She was just told what she surely must have known she would be told.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry th want either.Gardenwalker said:
Is it because they are as fed up with this shitshow as the rest of us?kle4 said:
It does seem to have gone even worse than she could have imagined. MV today as no pretext was provided for delaying.grabcocque said:
She market.HYUFD said:
It doesn't actuallygrabcocque said:
Well yes, we could all have told her that. But this communique actually puts her into a worse position than she started in. A remarkable achievement, even for her.HYUFD said:
So even the EU affirm the backstop is seatsgrabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than ?"
Not only has May not gotten what she promised on the backstop from her party or the DUP, she's actually gottent the EUCO to re-affirm their support for it!
This has contrived to make May's impossible parliamentary arithmetic even harder, because she's now lied to her party and DUP (again) about the backstop, and suffered what is being widely reported as a "rebuff", "humiliation", "Salzburg 2.0" and my personal favorite, "diplomatic disaster".
Realpolitik suggests that May is a lame duck and that there is simply no Deal which will get through Parliament. 118 “extremists” and 10 DUPers will put pay to that.
The EU needed to tell May to stop fucking about and find a cross-party solution. She has all the tools necessary to do so (inc A50 extension, A50 revocation, referendum, making the customs union permanent etc).
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?0 -
Totally O/T but seems being a massive online retailer isn’t all sweetness and light...crazy tales of massive amounts of amazon returns, which then get sold to B2B who sell them to small Del Boys types, who then sell them through amazon!!!!...head spins..
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/13/returned-goods-are-a-problem-for-retailers-resellers-are-cashing-in.html0 -
Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.0
-
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome0 -
Yes, what we need now is to introduce new, untested mechanisms into our convoluted constitutional processes. I get not wanting to he accountable but toughen the fuck up.HYUFD said:
Nandy and Kendall want to pass the decision of a referendum question to Citizens' Assemblies before they even.vote on holding a referendummalcolmg said:
They need to p*** or get off the pot, stop thinking of their personal interests. Either revoke A50 or get ready for a No Deal, it is painfully obvious and simple decision.tottenhamWC said:
Hopefully rightly because it would be bloody stupid!malcolmg said:
the yellow bellied Tories will never have the balls to make that decision.Luckyguy1983 said:No deal please. Apparently on the EU side they're fine and prepared. I'm sure it will not present France with any issues, it's not like they're a fractious bunch who take to the streets at the drop of a hat is it? And I'm sure they won't miss that £39bn either. Let's just prepare as best we can, and get on with it.
I think they are actually generally more scared about being seen to act against the result of the referendum, apart from the ERG faction who are effectively controlling the prospect of a no deal outcome (and largely mad).
If we want to let the ERG dictate that, then parliament has gone collectively crazy. Probably a poetic denouement in some ways.
PS: These arses get paid shedloads to make decisions, supposedly.0 -
The suggestion is of course nonsense. Indeed after JRM and others threats to the party since the vote I would expect she would have added to her support.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
0 -
It would have only taken another say 30 and her position wouldn’t have been safe and I bet there was at least that who thought usual EU game, May will get a bit of fudge when she goes at the end of the week.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
0 -
I think her determination and perseverance pays off in situations where she controls most of the pieces, or where it is simply a matter of grinding down an opponent. But as a control freak she cannot cope in situations where the solution relies upon others and demands compromise, co-operation and give-and-take. Unfortunately politics isn't a very good career match for such a character.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, she's also promised no second referendum.
I do find it interesting people seem to respect May for her dogged determination. It's not a view I share, but is worth noting.0 -
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.0 -
They didn't even try useful diplomatic fudge they do it too.Foxy said:
Are you referring to Theresa with that?kle4 said:
They believe frightening people is better than enticing people.Nemtynakht said:
I’m unsure what the EU reasoning for this is. There is a possibility that we will be asked in the near future whether we want to change our minds and associate with the EU again, I cannot fathom why they would think this would be a good idea.grabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than at Salzburg.
As predicted, the draft addendum has been salami sliced till there's nothing left. I think EUCO are trying to send May a message: "WHICH PART OF THE DEAL IS FINAL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?"
The EU have merely agreed with her redlines.
0 -
Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
I can imagine how the WhatsApp group would have gone.Peter_the_Punter said:
Incidentally, why did she need to go in person - no internet in Downing Street? She doesn't know how to text?SouthamObserver said:
May allowed herself to be humiliated - yet again - by making promises she had no hope of keeping. That is no-one's fault but her own. She was not mocked. She was just told what she surely must have known she would be told.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry th want either.Gardenwalker said:
Is it because they are as fed up with this shitshow as the rest of us?kle4 said:
It does seem to have gone even worse than she could have imagined. MV today as no pretext was provided for delaying.grabcocque said:
She market.HYUFD said:
It doesn't actuallygrabcocque said:
Well yes, we could all have told her that. But this communique actually puts her into a worse position than she started in. A remarkable achievement, even for her.HYUFD said:
So even the EU affirm the backstop is seatsgrabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than ?"
Not only has May not gotten what she promised on the backstop from her party or the DUP, she's actually gottent the EUCO to re-affirm their support for it!
This has contrived to make May's impossible parliamentary arithmetic even harder, because she's now lied to her party and DUP (again) about the backstop, and suffered what is being widely reported as a "rebuff", "humiliation", "Salzburg 2.0" and my personal favorite, "diplomatic disaster".
Realpolitik suggests that May is a lame duck and that there is simply no Deal which will get through Parliament. 118 “extremists” and 10 DUPers will put pay to that.
The EU needed to tell May to stop fucking about and find a cross-party solution. She has all the tools necessary to do so (inc A50 extension, A50 revocation, referendum, making the customs union permanent etc).
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
- Can we have a chat about the backstop
- No
- Please
- No
- we aren’t renegotiating
- what about some sort of clarification
- no
- please
- no
- what exactly do you want clarified
- stuff
....0 -
There are different ways of being told things. Blunt diplomatic language is a choice they made rather than any traditional EU fudge. What does thatachieve here? May already knew they didn't want to renegotiate it's parliament that needs convincing, does this help that?SouthamObserver said:
May allowed herself to be humiliated - yet again - by making promises she had no hope of keeping. That is no-one's fault but her own. She was not mocked. She was just told what she surely must have known she would be told.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and away from the edge, which they dont want either.Gardenwalker said:
Is it because they are as fed up with this shitshow as the rest of us?kle4 said:
It does seem to have gone even worse than she could have imagined. MV today as no pretext was provided for delaying.grabcocque said:HYUFD said:
It doesn't actuallygrabcocque said:
Well yes, we could all have told her that. But this communique actually puts her into a worse position than she started in. A remarkable achievement, even for her.HYUFD said:
So even the EU affirm the backstop is seatsgrabcocque said:EUCO have given May an even more brutal rebuff than ?"
This has contrived to make May's impossible parliamentary arithmetic even harder, because she's now lied to her party and DUP (again) about the backstop, and suffered what is being widely reported as a "rebuff", "humiliation", "Salzburg 2.0" and my personal favorite, "diplomatic disaster".
Realpolitik suggests that May is a lame duck and that there is simply no Deal which will get through Parliament. 118 “extremists” and 10 DUPers will put pay to that.
The EU needed to tell May to stop fucking about and find a cross-party solution. She has all the tools necessary to do so (inc A50 extension, A50 revocation, referendum, making the customs union permanent etc).
Its not about I'm sure but what does it achieve?
Diplomats don't just get sick of others' shit and get blunt they do it to achieve an outcome, I just am not sure which outcome they thought this helped, since May is only a very small part off The problem.
And the BBC says her performance was labelled bad. Only the EU saw the performance that personal judgement must come from them.
0 -
The EU is a Eurozone club now. The UK can sit at the back of the bus with the Visigrad countries. If you look at the new rules for QMV, it's fecking hard for a non-EZ country to summon a blocking minority and EZ countries make up more than 55% of the votes.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains
Under the current rules QMV is also contextual, which is fair enough - the UK gets no votes on Euro or Schengen measures.
'Influence' is a hollow joke whether in or out.0 -
May's Deal is fine for the UK as it ends free movement and avoids permanent Customs Union unlike what will happen under PM Corbyn.Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
We should fear WTO terms far more than the EU as it would hugely damage our economy and more so than theirs as 44% of UK exports go to the EU but only 16% of EU exports to the UK0 -
I'd prefer Darling to Balls, and swap Clegg, Clarke and Sturgeon about, but that's a solid lineup.Freggles said:
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome0 -
The combination of May being a control freak, combined with being a poor listener makes her particularly unsuited to being a negotiator. She has totally failed, yet her party decided to keep her on the rack rather than try anything else.IanB2 said:
I think her determination and perseverance pays off in situations where she controls most of the pieces, or where it is simply a matter of grinding down an opponent. But as a control freak she cannot cope in situations where the solution relies upon others and demands compromise, co-operation and give-and-take. Unfortunately politics isn't a very good career match for such a character.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, she's also promised no second referendum.
I do find it interesting people seem to respect May for her dogged determination. It's not a view I share, but is worth noting.0 -
Corbyn will give you permanent Customs Union and you will deserve it through your refusal to compromiseAmpfieldAndy said:
It’s May and her incompetence making a Corbyn Gov more likely. Neither May’s word nor that of the EU has been good for anything thus far so why would that change. May has surrendered in every issue she is so weak and inept. Once we’ve parted with our £ 39 bn and are in the Withdrawal agreement we’re trapped. It’s either agree to EU dictated terms on trade of Exeter the backstop in perpetuity. That shouldn’t appeal to anyone - Leaver or Remainer.HYUFD said:
It is No Deal Brexit that opens the door to Corbyn and the EU have confirmed again they aim to have have completed an agreement by the end of 2020 so the backstop is not triggered.AmpfieldAndy said:200 Tory MPs now regretting they didn’t boot May out when they had the chance, after the EU give her the usual two fingered salute over the backstop. What a shower. That’s any chance of Toryunity beingrestored gine, any chance of rebuilding bridges with the DUP gone, any chance of fending off a VNOC gine. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Just a shame they are going to inflict Calamity Corbyn on the rest of us.
What price a General Election in March. Still, at least Brenda in Bristol didn’t have one this year. She must be getting withdrawal symptoms.
A no deal Brexit is looking more likely every day and every day this pathetic Giv refuses to prepare properly for it. The electorate will never forgive them. The Tory Party must surely split now if there is to be sane party in British politics. Let the muppets like Soubry, Allen Morgan go off to the LibDems or join Umnunna, Cooper, Kendall is a new SDP.
However of cause if Corbyn does get it No Deal will not last long, Corbyn will agree to permanent Customs Union as per Labour policy and most likely permanent Customs Union too as the SNP will demand in return for confidence and supply. So by rejecting May's Deal hardliners like you will just end up with BINO in the end ( though the Tories may go on a more hard line position in opposition under Boris)
A permanent customs union is worthless. Might as well stay in the EU and revoke Article 50 as do that and Corbyn makes up policy on the hoof. Starmer might want a permanent customs union but that doesn’t make it Labour policy. Corbyn and McDonnell are so shallow they’ll just say anything g to get an election and power. No one in their right minds is going to trust them.0 -
I quite like Darling, but in a pure fantasy world, I'd like to get Martin Lewis into the Treasury.IanB2 said:
I'd prefer Darling to Balls, and swap Clegg, Clarke and Sturgeon about, but that's a solid lineup.Freggles said:
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome0 -
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance of changing anything then but will see themselves kicked out of office. Plenty of cause for regret I would have thought.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
0 -
May still leads Corbyn as preferred PM and still the Tories largely tied with Labour in the pollsAmpfieldAndy said:
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance then.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
0 -
Good, lets remain, and try to bugger things up from the inside and make ourselves as difficult as possibleBig_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
With Johnson and Rees Mogg threatening economic armageddon it was the right decisionFoxy said:
The combination of May being a control freak, combined with being a poor listener makes her particularly unsuited to being a negotiator. She has totally failed, yet her party decided to keep her on the rack rather than try anything else.IanB2 said:
I think her determination and perseverance pays off in situations where she controls most of the pieces, or where it is simply a matter of grinding down an opponent. But as a control freak she cannot cope in situations where the solution relies upon others and demands compromise, co-operation and give-and-take. Unfortunately politics isn't a very good career match for such a character.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, she's also promised no second referendum.
I do find it interesting people seem to respect May for her dogged determination. It's not a view I share, but is worth noting.0 -
Doubly awesome.tlg86 said:
I quite like Darling, but in a pure fantasy world, I'd like to get Martin Lewis into the Treasury.IanB2 said:
I'd prefer Darling to Balls, and swap Clegg, Clarke and Sturgeon about, but that's a solid lineup.Freggles said:
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome0 -
All the alternatives wanted to renegotiate and the EU doesn't want to. A better negotiator would only help if they took over years ago.Foxy said:
The combination of May being a control freak, combined with being a poor listener makes her particularly unsuited to being a negotiator. She has totally failed, yet her party decided to keep her on the rack rather than try anything else.IanB2 said:
I think her determination and perseverance pays off in situations where she controls most of the pieces, or where it is simply a matter of grinding down an opponent. But as a control freak she cannot cope in situations where the solution relies upon others and demands compromise, co-operation and give-and-take. Unfortunately politics isn't a very good career match for such a character.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, she's also promised no second referendum.
I do find it interesting people seem to respect May for her dogged determination. It's not a view I share, but is worth noting.
The leader now seems kind of irrelevant. They need to choose. No deal or remain. (Labour have deal or remain to pick from and sure as he'll won't deal, so that's off the table)0 -
HYUFD said:
May still leads Corbyn as preferred PM and still the Tories largely tied with Labour in the pollsAmpfieldAndy said:
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance then.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
That is true, HUYFD, but do you think the polls mean much at the moment?HYUFD said:
May still leads Corbyn as preferred PM and still the Tories largely tied with Labour in the pollsAmpfieldAndy said:
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance then.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
We're in the middle of a national crisis. When it is resolved, things are likely to look very different.
0 -
tbf this would be the worst possible time to make a switch. There aren't any risk-free alternatives. And the state of their party is such that a contest could easily light the touchpaper.Foxy said:
The combination of May being a control freak, combined with being a poor listener makes her particularly unsuited to being a negotiator. She has totally failed, yet her party decided to keep her on the rack rather than try anything else.IanB2 said:
I think her determination and perseverance pays off in situations where she controls most of the pieces, or where it is simply a matter of grinding down an opponent. But as a control freak she cannot cope in situations where the solution relies upon others and demands compromise, co-operation and give-and-take. Unfortunately politics isn't a very good career match for such a character.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, she's also promised no second referendum.
I do find it interesting people seem to respect May for her dogged determination. It's not a view I share, but is worth noting.
Edit/The negotiation bit, in terms of the contents of the deal, hasn't gone all that badly. Where she has failed is in strategy and presentation, specifically in not working out how the deal would be delivered and working out how to present it and build the necessary consensus and buy-in.
0 -
QTWTAIY. For him anyway.Peter_the_Punter said:HYUFD said:
May still leads Corbyn as preferred PM and still the Tories largely tied with Labour in the pollsAmpfieldAndy said:
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance then.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
That is true, HUYFD, but do you think the polls mean much at the moment?HYUFD said:
May still leads Corbyn as preferred PM and still the Tories largely tied with Labour in the pollsAmpfieldAndy said:
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance then.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
0 -
The way to do the emergency national unity government would be to turn all the select committee chairs directly into ministers.IanB2 said:
I'd prefer Darling to Balls, and swap Clegg, Clarke and Sturgeon about, but that's a solid lineup.Freggles said:
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome
This works uniquely well right now because, what with both the main parties being run by total and utter arsehats, all the competent people are sitting things out on the committees rather than serving on their respective front benches.0 -
Shouldnt have supported such a lame duck leader and a lame duck policy and been so contemptuous of 17.4m voters then should you. Corbyn will give the whole of Britain plenty of cause to regret. If you think that is a price worth paying to spit in the eye of Leavers, you’ll get your wish. Personally, I think you’ll regret it but, hey, maybe you are a closet socialist.HYUFD said:
Corbyn will give you permanent Customs Union and you will deserve it through your refusal to compromiseAmpfieldAndy said:
It’s May and her incompetence making a Corbyn Gov more likely. Neither May’s word nor that of the EU has been good for anything thus far so why would that change. May has surrendered in every issue she is so weak and inept. Once we’ve parted with our £ 39 bn and are in the Withdrawal agreement we’re trapped. It’s either agree to EU dictated terms on trade of Exeter the backstop in perpetuity. That shouldn’t appeal to anyone - Leaver or Remainer.HYUFD said:
However of cause if Corbyn does get it No Deal will not last long, Corbyn will agree to permanent Customs Union as per Labour policy and most likely permanent Customs Union too as the SNP will demand in return for confidence and supply. So by rejecting May's Deal hardliners like you will just end up with BINO in the end ( though the Tories may go on a more hard line position in opposition under Boris)AmpfieldAndy said:200 Tory MPs now regretting they didn’t boot May out when they had the chance, after the EU give her the usual two fingered salute over the backstop. What a shower. That’s any chance of Toryunity beingrestored gine, any chance of rebuilding bridges with the DUP gone, any chance of fending off a VNOC gine. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Just a shame they are going to inflict Calamity Corbyn on the rest of us.
What price a General Election in March. Still, at least Brenda in Bristol didn’t have one this year. She must be getting withdrawal symptoms.
A no deal Brexit is looking more likely every day and every day this pathetic Giv refuses to prepare properly for it. The electorate will never forgive them. The Tory Party must surely split now if there is to be sane party in British politics. Let the muppets like Soubry, Allen Morgan go off to the LibDems or join Umnunna, Cooper, Kendall is a new SDP.
A permanent customs union is worthless. Might as well stay in the EU and revoke Article 50 as do that and Corbyn makes up policy on the hoof. Starmer might want a permanent customs union but that doesn’t make it Labour policy. Corbyn and McDonnell are so shallow they’ll just say anything g to get an election and power. No one in their right minds is going to trust them.0 -
Who's going to do that? If we remain the political class will see it as the green light to join the Euro, EU army etc. That's why people took their chance to vote to leave in 2016 in the first place.Slackbladder said:
Good, lets remain, and try to bugger things up from the inside and make ourselves as difficult as possibleBig_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?0 -
Those will be the same polls that May lost a 20% lead in during the last election will they. Worth a lot at this stage to be parity with a party racked with problems on antisemitism and misogyny.HYUFD said:
May still leads Corbyn as preferred PM and still the Tories largely tied with Labour in the pollsAmpfieldAndy said:
She only got 200 because of the payroll vote and by promising to step down as leader. I don’t think changing or not changing the backstop had much to do with it. That was more about trying to get something to persuade MPs to approve her deal because unless the backstop changes she’ll lose the vote on her deal and lose the VNOC that will surely follow as the DUP will side with Labour. Tories who supported her will then find themselves in a GE with May still party leader which she has promised them she wouldn’t be. She and they will have no chance then.kle4 said:Not sure why the 200 Tories would regret their choice now. May had previously told them the deal was it and about that many were going to vote for it. She was right.
0 -
I saw an extract of Angela Rayner ruling out a second referendum on question time last night. I was surprised how firmly she was against it.
So when will the labour split occur
0 -
I particularly like Davidson at Defence. Nobody would mess with her!IanB2 said:
I'd prefer Darling to Balls, and swap Clegg, Clarke and Sturgeon about, but that's a solid lineup.Freggles said:
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome
By the way, I am a dedicated Gove-hater, but my son who is a lecturer in agriculture and no friend of the Tories has dealt directly with him and was very impressed. So he's in. :-)0 -
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
It would leave her very vulnerable after the referendum vote had been passed. But given she has already accepted that she is going soon anyway, she might as well accept this as her quietus rather than hunkering down in a corner waiting to be overwhelmed.rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?0 -
With luck, both sides will have learned from this scorching experience. It could lead to a far better relationship.Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains
Could.0 -
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?0 -
Seemingly yes, though they could just refuse to pass necessary other legislation.rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?
I think May has to do it. The big firsr issue is do her cabinet resign if she tries. She can't be removed as such but she won't have the votes even with labour if she is all alone. Then would no dealers split. Then would a GE occur.
Unlike her changing her mind on a GE this would actually be a reasonable change in response to circumstance. But a farce without no deal as an option.0 -
Mr. Punter, not sure if you were here, but one PBer (I forget who, alas), described Gove's role as being to un-fuck the departments the likes of Grayling has previously run
0 -
Because no sane politician or sensible government would or could afford to put it forward.GIN1138 said:
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?0 -
Constructive and cordial - as they do with the Jewish community and their women members you mean.Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
Commentators seem to imply the EU hardened their position due to the state of UK politics and that they are unable to know what would pass the HOC0
-
This mess is at least partly his fault for not giving us the referendum on the constitution he promised, and for not pushing the euro which he believed in (probably still does, too).Roger said:Tony Blair is the most clear thinking politician we have ever had. Even now he makes the rest sound self serving confused or stupid. For an explanation which makes sense switch onto radio 4 and listen to his whole interview
0 -
Yes, I think that correct. We would only be difficult while the Tories are in power, and that would not be for long after an A50 withdrawal.Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains
The only way for the Tories to survive is for May's Deal to pass, and that requires a #peoplesvote, as Parliament is not willing.0 -
But Leave Means Leave (or some other group) will take the electoral commission to court as soon as the question is revealed without WTO Brexit on the ballot?IanB2 said:
Because no sane politician or sensible government would or could afford to put it forward.GIN1138 said:
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?
What if the "enemies of the people" side with the people and say WTO must be on the ballot?
Would't that be delicious.
0 -
Lol! No I didn't catch that.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, not sure if you were here, but one PBer (I forget who, alas), described Gove's role as being to un-fuck the departments the likes of Grayling has previously run
Number One Son tends to be apolitical and calls things straight, so it was intriguing he spoke so highly of Gove as a Minister, especially as he thinks Brexit is Bonkers and Gove of course is....0 -
Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this0
-
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
Yes, but is so then any Hard Irish Border would be blamed on Britain, not agreed by the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
So if they don't want a border they can compromise.Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
So what's the big fuss about?GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
Donny43 said:
This mess is at least partly his fault for not giving us the referendum on the constitution he promised, and for not pushing the euro which he believed in (probably still does, too).Roger said:Tony Blair is the most clear thinking politician we have ever had. Even now he makes the rest sound self serving confused or stupid. For an explanation which makes sense switch onto radio 4 and listen to his whole interview
The blame spreads far and wide, Donny, but as usual the greatest responsibility rests on those with the greatest power.Donny43 said:
This mess is at least partly his fault for not giving us the referendum on the constitution he promised, and for not pushing the euro which he believed in (probably still does, too).Roger said:Tony Blair is the most clear thinking politician we have ever had. Even now he makes the rest sound self serving confused or stupid. For an explanation which makes sense switch onto radio 4 and listen to his whole interview
I'd start in Brussels and work down.0 -
I cannot see a referendum without no deal on itGIN1138 said:
But Leave Means Leave (or some other group) will take the electoral commission to court as soon as the question is revealed without WTO Brexit on the ballot?IanB2 said:
Because no sane politician or sensible government would or could afford to put it forward.GIN1138 said:
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?
What if the "enemies of the people" side with the people and say WTO must be on the ballot?
Would't that be delicious.
Even Gina Miller has said it would have to be deal - no deal - remain 'to be fair to all parties'0 -
With Corbyn as leader?Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains 0 -
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
Gove was quite controversial at schools and justice, but I've heard equally high praise from non-Tories at DEFRA. I think he genuinely enjoys it too.Peter_the_Punter said:
Lol! No I didn't catch that.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, not sure if you were here, but one PBer (I forget who, alas), described Gove's role as being to un-fuck the departments the likes of Grayling has previously run
Number One Son tends to be apolitical and calls things straight, so it was intriguing he spoke so highly of Gove as a Minister, especially as he thinks Brexit is Bonkers and Gove of course is....0 -
Well thats on them for not providing a workable deal then....Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
Apparently they would have toGIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
How about this for a Gov't of all the talents ?
PM: Raab
Chancellor: McDonald
Home: Boris Johnson
Foreign: David Davis
Defence: Corbyn
Health: Mogg
Business: Burgon
Work and pensions: IDS
Education: Angela Rayner
DEFRA: Paterson
Transport: Grayling
International development: Patel
Fun: May0 -
I think that Corbyn would be cordial and constructive with the EU. Some elements of the UK population may find him less so, but even with opponents he is generally well mannered and cordial.RobD said:
With Corbyn as leader?Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
EU members get a vote and can trade off most of the things they dislike through horse trading. You get influence from those facts. The corrollary is that outside that trading system and without a vote no-one is interested in your horse or will pay you any attention at all.John_M said:
The EU is a Eurozone club now. The UK can sit at the back of the bus with the Visigrad countries. If you look at the new rules for QMV, it's fecking hard for a non-EZ country to summon a blocking minority and EZ countries make up more than 55% of the votes.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains
Under the current rules QMV is also contextual, which is fair enough - the UK gets no votes on Euro or Schengen measures.
'Influence' is a hollow joke whether in or out.0 -
Horses for courses, Rabbit. I hate the bastard but even I would put him in a position for which he showed real talent.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Gove was quite controversial at schools and justice, but I've heard equally high praise from non-Tories at DEFRA. I think he genuinely enjoys it too.Peter_the_Punter said:
Lol! No I didn't catch that.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, not sure if you were here, but one PBer (I forget who, alas), described Gove's role as being to un-fuck the departments the likes of Grayling has previously run
Number One Son tends to be apolitical and calls things straight, so it was intriguing he spoke so highly of Gove as a Minister, especially as he thinks Brexit is Bonkers and Gove of course is....0 -
So they can compromise then.Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
No sign of that currently.0 -
I would go back and live in Scotland as they become IndependentPulpstar said:How about this for a Gov't of all the talents ?
PM: Raab
Chancellor: McDonald
Home: Boris Johnson
Foreign: David Davis
Defence: Corbyn
Health: Mogg
Business: Burgon
Work and pensions: IDS
Education: Angela Rayner
DEFRA: Paterson
Transport: Grayling
International development: Patel
Fun: May0 -
I don't think that one would get past the first round of Britain's Got Talent!Pulpstar said:How about this for a Gov't of all the talents ?
PM: Raab
Chancellor: McDonald
Home: Boris Johnson
Foreign: David Davis
Defence: Corbyn
Health: Mogg
Business: Burgon
Work and pensions: IDS
Education: Angela Rayner
DEFRA: Paterson
Transport: Grayling
International development: Patel
Fun: May0 -
How can the WTO force us to build a border if neither country wants to?
Could we just sign a WTO-like deal with the EU which is exactly the same but without a border with Ireland?0 -
You really are a CorbynistaFoxy said:
I think that Corbyn would be cordial and constructive with the EU. Some elements of the UK population may find him less so, but even with opponents he is generally well mannered and cordial.RobD said:
With Corbyn as leader?Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
I thought WTO had said exceptions can be made when the political situation is particularly "delicate" like with NI and ROI?Foxy said:
Have they? On the radio last night they were saying that they (and we) would be obliged to under WTO rules.GIN1138 said:
The EU has said they won't erect a hard border in any circumstances (as as ROI and UK? )Big_G_NorthWales said:Commentators confirm the ERG position that if we leave on no deal in March the EU will be forced into erecting a border and they have a real blind spot on this
0 -
how much is a one way plane ticket out of here?Foxy said:
I don't think that one would get past the first round of Britain's Got Talent!Pulpstar said:How about this for a Gov't of all the talents ?
PM: Raab
Chancellor: McDonald
Home: Boris Johnson
Foreign: David Davis
Defence: Corbyn
Health: Mogg
Business: Burgon
Work and pensions: IDS
Education: Angela Rayner
DEFRA: Paterson
Transport: Grayling
International development: Patel
Fun: May0 -
A farmer friend of mine I was speaking to yesterday called him a weedy little man but reading between the lines I rather suspect he holds a grudging respect for the guy.Peter_the_Punter said:
I particularly like Davidson at Defence. Nobody would mess with her!IanB2 said:
I'd prefer Darling to Balls, and swap Clegg, Clarke and Sturgeon about, but that's a solid lineup.Freggles said:
PM: Hilary BennScott_P said:
Chancellor: Ed Balls
Foreign Secretary: Nick Clegg
Home Secretary: Ken Clarke
Health: Norman Lamb
Communities and Local Govt including devolution: Nicola Sturgeon
Defense: Ruth Davidson
Transport: Andy Burnham
Environment: Michael Gove
That would be awesome
By the way, I am a dedicated Gove-hater, but my son who is a lecturer in agriculture and no friend of the Tories has dealt directly with him and was very impressed. So he's in. :-)0 -
No, but neither am I a Jezzaphobe. He has many positive qualities, but also many negative ones.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You really are a CorbynistaFoxy said:
I think that Corbyn would be cordial and constructive with the EU. Some elements of the UK population may find him less so, but even with opponents he is generally well mannered and cordial.RobD said:
With Corbyn as leader?Dura_Ace said:
Only while this disgusting wreck of a government staggers on. The imminent and inevitable Labour government will have a more cordial and constructive relationship with the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:Wulfrun_Phil said:
The EU don't really need to achieve anything more now. They have achieved everything they need. May's deal is fine for the EU if not the UK and so would be our rescinding A50. They fear our exit on WTO terms as well they should but know that there is no chance of it happening thanks to 1. 5 out of 6 MPs being against it and that 2. May clearly sees it as the worst of all options.kle4 said:
I'm sure they are sick of it but holing May below waterline isn't helpful - her ability to carry those other options had just been reduced because they've humiliated her, and it will increase the number of eff off sentiment. I get they want us to revoke A50 rather than take the deal, they want to keep that money so badly, but if someone has approached a cliff edge, even of their own accord, I don't know that insulting them and mocking then when they complain about their own problems helps draw them away from the edge, which they dont want either.
Its not about May it's about the Commons. Even fewer Tories will now back the deal with no clear support for anything else and Labour only care about a GE. Mocking the one person who did want a deal and at least tried has made them feel better I'm sure but what does it achieve?
So they are free to insult and humiliate the UK PM as much as they wish.
I agree with your comments but the EU are going to have one very difficult member if the UK remains0 -
Parliament decides what the referendum choice is; the Commission just confirms the wording of the statements on offer.GIN1138 said:
But Leave Means Leave (or some other group) will take the electoral commission to court as soon as the question is revealed without WTO Brexit on the ballot?IanB2 said:
Because no sane politician or sensible government would or could afford to put it forward.GIN1138 said:
Why is there the assumption that the second referendum doesn't have WTO on the ballot paper?rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?
What if the "enemies of the people" side with the people and say WTO must be on the ballot?
Would't that be delicious.0 -
And I don't think Labour moderates are interested. They are now convinced that Brexit can be reversed and they have nothing to gain by digging May out of the pile of ordure she has poured over herself.rottenborough said:Philip Collins has a cunning plan for May to do a deal with Lab moderate remainers for a 2nd vote: her deal vs remain.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/163188a2-fef4-11e8-92e0-7fb8092617eb
Very much doubt May has it in her to be so bold. And he fails to say what happens if her deal wins and then HoC again doesn't pass it. I suppose the referendum could be made binding - can that be done?0
