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There is this modern contraption called iPlayer I've heard.Morris_Dancer said:Interesting snippet from Portillo:
https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/1063220990845452288
Shame This Week isn't on rather earlier, to be honest.
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DecrepitJohnL said:
Dominic Cummings, who was looking at the data, credited the NHS bus with getting Leave over the line. The official leave campaign feared that Farage banging on about immigrants all the time was driving voters away. Of course, this could be because they'd already banked the anti-immigration vote.AmpfieldAndy said:
That was the sign in the Vote Leave bus. I don’t think any of the Vote Leave campaigners spent too much time on the doorstep discussing the NHS. I didn’t and Leave.EU seemed fixated on immigration almost exclusively.MikeSmithson said:AmpfieldAndy said:rcs1000 said:
And Mrs May does not understand that?AmpfieldAndy said:
Leave win because it secured 52% of the votes compared to Remain’s 48%.rcs1000 said:
Leave won because Northern Ireland doesn't want to be connected economically with the Republic?AmpfieldAndy said:JRM has been all mouth and no trousers for a long time but yesterday, finally, he did actually act. Mrs May doesn’t have a monopoly on brains, has produced a dire Brexit that is actually worse than staying in the EU and has fundamentally misunderstood why Leave won. To deliver such an cataclysmic climb down as her Brexit deal, she has sacriced the Gov’s entire domestic policy agenda which is an abdication of good government.
JRM did the right thing yesterday. If Brady doesn’t get his 48 letters, it will say a lot more about the gutless winders on the Tory back benches than it will about JRM himself.
Well, it's a view.
How does her deal deliver anything that reflects why voted Leave ? It doesn’t give us control of anything - not our money, not our borders, and not our laws let alone anything else.
The leave campaign was about more money for the NHS
So I believe. I haven’t seen any stats myself to confirm that. Of the 52%, how many voted on the basis of the NHS as opposed to say immigration, sovereignty etc.0 -
Twitter speculation that the 48 letters are in0
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Not just the UK in crisis at the moment, also Sweden and Italy. Sweden can't form a government and Italy is about to be taken to task by the EU for excessive spending.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2018/11/17/sweden-fails-to-form-a-government
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-462036050 -
One of his issues may have revolved around no clear and agreed position in UK.Roger said:
Interesting but not surprising. Though I now have quite a respect for Mrs May's qualities appointing Davis Johnson and Fox showed a reckless lack of judgementCarlottaVance said:"Interim Prime Minister"?
https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/1063344379820154880
You could say as Brexit secretary it was his job to formulate that. You could also wonder if he was allowed to formulate it.
Many things are not as clear cut as they appear.0 -
On the other hand...Harris_Tweed said:
You may be right.. but the movement could be either way.Mysticrose said:You're much too hasty Mike.
Events dear boy, events.
Watch the next 72 hours ...
I still think the view expressed on here - that the deal's not too bad and most people just want it to be got on with - has some merit.
Although I was surprised by the vehemence and unanimity against it in the Commons yesterday, it might not take too many constituency chairmen getting grief from their business chums on the golf course this week to soften it.
At the same time, the ultras on both sides might realise it's a complete coin toss if this fails whether they get No Deal or Remain, and decide this is the least worst option.
Apart from the vote in parliament, yesterday was the biggest chance to disrupt this. Had Mordaunt and Gove jumped with Raab and McVey, AND 48 letters gone in, it may have proved fatal. But every day she and the deal go on, they're stronger than they were the day before.
LONDON, Nov 16 (Reuters) - The 48 letters from Conservative
lawmakers required to trigger a vote of no confidence in Prime
Minister Theresa May have been submitted, the editor of
BrexitCentral said on Friday, citing a single source who he said
was always previously reliable.
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We do come out the CAP but as trade hasn’t been discussed yet, then we don’t know whether we’ll have to pay towards further trade as countries like Norway currently do. Where, in May’s deal is immigration dealt with ?OblitusSumMe said:
I thought that it would:AmpfieldAndy said:rcs1000 said:
And Mrs May does not understand that?AmpfieldAndy said:
Leave win because it secured 52% of the votes compared to Remain’s 48%.rcs1000 said:
Leave won because Northern Ireland doesn't want to be connected economically with the Republic?AmpfieldAndy said:JRM has been all mouth and no trousers for a long time but yesterday, finally, he did actually act. Mrs May doesn’t have a monopoly on brains, has produced a dire Brexit that is actually worse than staying in the EU and has fundamentally misunderstood why Leave won. To deliver such an cataclysmic climb down as her Brexit deal, she has sacriced the Gov’s entire domestic policy agenda which is an abdication of good government.
JRM did the right thing yesterday. If Brady doesn’t get his 48 letters, it will say a lot more about the gutless winders on the Tory back benches than it will about JRM himself.
Well, it's a view.
How does her deal deliver anything that reflects why voted Leave ? It doesn’t give us control of anything - not our money, not our borders, and not our laws let alone anything else.
- stop us paying for the CAP.
- stop freedom of movement.
I think in all circumstances we have to follow regulations in the single market if we want to sell into the single market, so I don't see any scenario - except some sort of self-defeating trade war - where we do not have to follow EU law to some extent.
Your side have won. My side lost. Rejoice?0 -
David and Fox, quite probably (although Fox never had anything real to do, so he was kept onside enjoying the trimmings with no power). But appointing BJ as FS (FFS) was a masterstroke, proving the Peter Principle and saving the nation from having that principle tested in the top job.Roger said:
Interesting but not surprising. Though I now have quite a respect for Mrs May's qualities appointing Davis Johnson and Fox showed a reckless lack of judgementCarlottaVance said:"Interim Prime Minister"?
https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/10633443798201548800 -
"London Capital Markets ®
@LCMTrading
1m1 minute ago
We are hearing they have the 48 letters required for a no confidence vote GBP down hard again.."0 -
I did say that when the ERG act, they act decisively...Harris_Tweed said:
On the other hand...Harris_Tweed said:
You may be right.. but the movement could be either way.Mysticrose said:You're much too hasty Mike.
Events dear boy, events.
Watch the next 72 hours ...
I still think the view expressed on here - that the deal's not too bad and most people just want it to be got on with - has some merit.
Although I was surprised by the vehemence and unanimity against it in the Commons yesterday, it might not take too many constituency chairmen getting grief from their business chums on the golf course this week to soften it.
At the same time, the ultras on both sides might realise it's a complete coin toss if this fails whether they get No Deal or Remain, and decide this is the least worst option.
Apart from the vote in parliament, yesterday was the biggest chance to disrupt this. Had Mordaunt and Gove jumped with Raab and McVey, AND 48 letters gone in, it may have proved fatal. But every day she and the deal go on, they're stronger than they were the day before.
LONDON, Nov 16 (Reuters) - The 48 letters from Conservative
lawmakers required to trigger a vote of no confidence in Prime
Minister Theresa May have been submitted, the editor of
BrexitCentral said on Friday, citing a single source who he said
was always previously reliable.
Damnit, this is so frustrating when there is a deal
On the table.0 -
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To paraphrase Dilbert, the Tories are in a car with a flat. Rotating the tyres isn't actually going to fix the problem.0
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If a leadership vote is called and May wins it, that means she cannot be removed if the deal fails, at which point she could opt for a second referendum vote with impunity. Just a thought on how this might backfire (the saga does seem to be a competitive sport of shooting oneself in one's foot).0
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Since his return to the team he has 22 wickets at under 22 runs per wicket.DavidL said:Far more serious than any of this what on earth has happened to Moeen's batting? On form Jimmy should be looking slightly askance at his position in the line up.
Match back in the balance again. It's riveting stuff.
Edit, in fairness unlucky there, struck outside the line.
He's had five innings at number three, where he's scored a fifty, but only 82 runs in total, but he didn't start back there and isn't there now. There's a general malaise in the team's batting which he is only a part of.0 -
General election in 2019 favourite on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1320998360 -
"Confidence vote in PM now "likely" as Tory whips told to return to London - Sky sources"
https://news.sky.com/story/live-michael-gove-could-quit-as-theresa-may-refuses-to-ditch-brexit-draft-115554470 -
She technically could...only if shed already faced a vote of no confidence and could not be challenged again. Although even then they could make her position untenable.DavidL said:
Its a plausible scenario (but let's face it, we are in a position where the apparently necessary unicorns arriving in formation as pegasuses is starting to seem all too possible) but I am not entirely sure that even the limpet May could survive (a) the first defeat and (b) the offer of a second referendum.OblitusSumMe said:If Theresa May can survive to take this to the meaningful vote it will be defeated in the first instance. It then looks like there are a couple of alternatives.
1. After failing with a vote of no confidence, the Labour frontbench adopts a second referendum as policy and the deal passes the Commons when May makes that concession. It's worth remembering that this is a concession she can offer, unlike many that will be demanded that would require a concession from the EU.
2. In the face of the threat of a second referendum the ERG and Labour Leavers cave and support May's deal in a second Commons vote.
This is why the ERG have made a move against May. If she survives then she finds a way to avoid a no-deal. If they can bring her down then they can create enough chaos and confusion for four months to achieve the no deal Brexit they want.
There will be immense pressure on May to stand down when the Commons rejects her deal in the meaningful vote. But she seems to be the only hope for avoiding a no-deal Brexit.
But everyone can see she will lose the vote so that is built in. The question, if it gets that far, is do the Tories want to deliver brexit or not. A referendum might be the only way.0 -
Has anyone backed the May out, Trump out double?0
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The trouble is there are two diametrically-opposed views of what that head should be (with May being Option 3 in the middle).Yorkcity said:
About time for the sake of everyone bring it to a head.Scott_P said:Twitter speculation that the 48 letters are in
I still think those pressing the button should be bloody careful what they wish for.0 -
I thought you said 2018 for a moment thereAndyJS said:General election in 2019 favourite on Betfair.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.1320998360 -
Also May not being straight with Raab has had consequences.GIN1138 said:
Portillo's prediction is that it will be the Cabinet that does May in when they realize the deal won't get through Parliament and as Theresa won't abandon it they'll have to abandon her (to save the government and their jobs)Morris_Dancer said:Interesting snippet from Portillo:
https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/1063220990845452288
Shame This Week isn't on rather earlier, to be honest.
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The Spectator has this updating page enabling letter writers to out themselves.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/letters-of-no-confidence-in-theresa-may-live-updates/0 -
Curious how a couple of hardcore Brexiteers with an uber-aggressive posting style have popped up since archer was banned.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t know much about the economy then do you. Exporters always have to comply with the trade regs of the country to whom they export. That is as true for U.K. companies exporting to the EU under Singke Marketrukes as it is for U.K. exporters selling to the US under WTO rules.not_on_fire said:
Well tough, the reality of the modern global economy is that common rules need to be followed between countries. It would of course far more preferably to have kept the status that meant we actually had a say in them.AmpfieldAndy said:
How does it actually gives back control of those. It says nothing about immigration, our trading laws are determined by Brussels with us having g no say; trade isn’t mentioned so the issue of paying for trade isn’t discussed let alone raised, and we are faced with being in a customs union which,together with the EU determining our trading laws, effectively rules out our ability to conclude any trade deals on our own.currystar said:
Have you read the deal? It does exactly that.AmpfieldAndy said:
That is not the point. Remainers didn’t get what they wanted in the referendum and look how badly they have behaved since - like spoilt brats.Bromptonaut said:
You cain’t always get what you want....AmpfieldAndy said:felix said:With apologies to the sensible 'Leavers' I now would prefer a second referendum in which I'd repeat my Remain vote and be moderately confident of victory. for me the antics of the 'ultras' have negated my willingness to accept the original result.
I voted Leave because I wanted a trade deal with the EU and nothing else. May should have stuck with David Davis’ approach. If there is a second referendum I shall still vote Leave. I think the behaviour of the Remoaners who have failed to respect the original referendum is abhorrent. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Leavers do not.
The problem with May’s deal is that it is not worth having at all. It has no merits and it doesn’t even give us back control of our borders, money and laws as he falsely claimed yesterday.
It doesn’t affect in the slightest how we choose to regulate our domestic economy and there is no sensible reason whatsoever for us to bind our domestic economy, which is 80% of our GDP, by the rules of the Single Market.
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or it's a clever ploy to pile the pressure on the waiverers.AndyJS said:"Confidence vote in PM now "likely" as Tory whips told to return to London - Sky sources"
https://news.sky.com/story/live-michael-gove-could-quit-as-theresa-may-refuses-to-ditch-brexit-draft-11555447
dunno0 -
0
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"Michael Gove has arrived for work at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in Westminster. But he did not comment to reporters as he went in, the Press Association reports."0
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Bet on Brexit falling and we remain in the EU0
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Which May will win and be untouchable until after Brexit if it now still happens at allAndyJS said:"Confidence vote in PM now "likely" as Tory whips told to return to London - Sky sources"
https://news.sky.com/story/live-michael-gove-could-quit-as-theresa-may-refuses-to-ditch-brexit-draft-115554470 -
If we have learned anything through this, they are simply not that clever.TheWhiteRabbit said:
or it's a clever ploy to pile the pressure on the waiverers.AndyJS said:"Confidence vote in PM now "likely" as Tory whips told to return to London - Sky sources"
https://news.sky.com/story/live-michael-gove-could-quit-as-theresa-may-refuses-to-ditch-brexit-draft-11555447
dunno
What's curious is that if they have now only just reached 48, there Brady must have been sitting on ewer than 20-25 letters in all this time. Nowhere near the 48.0 -
A better bet is laying JRM for next Tory leader. He's still around 12-13 on Betfair and his current demonstration as to why no-one in politics has ever trusted him with any sort of even junior power should put him firmly out of the race.0
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But they are not making rational, evidence-based judgments. Many of them are cultists, just as blinkered and fanatical (perhaps more so) as Corbyn cultists. Brexit is the revealed truth and sullying it with compromises such as the May deal is sacrilege.HYUFD said:
We now have a Deal. If May cannot get her Deal through Parliament it will now likely be EUref2, perhaps even called by May herself.Mortimer said:
HYUFD - the legal default is No deal. Politics needs to happen for that to change in any direction.HYUFD said:
For goodness sake only 32% back No Deal in Sky's poll yesterday, that is even less popular than the poll tax.murali_s said:Also, as a country we should back May's deal. It's the only deal in town, even though it's obviously inferior to remaining in the EU.
The default to this deal is a hard Brexit. I wish the default was the status-quo (remaining in the EU) but sadly it isn't.
The default without this deal will end up being Remain, the question then is just when not if
We’re not led by sentient opinion polls.
No Deal now means riots on the streets with less than a third support for it that make the poll tax riots look like a picnic and the collapse of the £, the stock exchange and the economy. I repeat No Deal means it is a question of when not if we stay in the EU before next March or we rejoin the EEA with full single market and customs union membership after
Brexiteers better realise this Deal is the best Brexit they will get
And many of the less devoted followers revel in opposition, grievance, and victimhood. They don't really care if Brexit collapses, they will go back to their comfort zone and spend the rest of their lives blaming the EU for everything that is wrong in the world. Much easier than taking responsibility for the unholy mess they have created.0 -
Who makes the laws? Parliament and we know Parliament will vote for EUref2 over No Deal.Mortimer said:
One of the problems of prioritising opinion polling over legislation on the statute book is that you don’t properly understand the legislation.HYUFD said:
We now have a Deal. If May cannot get her Deal through Parliament it will now likely be EUref2, perhaps even called by May herself.Mortimer said:
HYUFD - the legal default is No deal. Politics needs to happen for that to change in any direction.HYUFD said:
For goodness sake only 32% back No Deal in Sky's poll yesterday, that is even less popular than the poll tax.murali_s said:Also, as a country we should back May's deal. It's the only deal in town, even though it's obviously inferior to remaining in the EU.
The default to this deal is a hard Brexit. I wish the default was the status-quo (remaining in the EU) but sadly it isn't.
The default without this deal will end up being Remain, the question then is just when not if
We’re not led by sentient opinion polls.
No Deal now means riots on the streets with less than a third support for it that make the poll tax riots look like a picnic and the collapse of the £, the stock exchange and the economy. I repeat No Deal means it is a question of when not if we stay in the EU before next March or we rejoin the EEA with full single market and customs union membership after
Brexiteers better realise this Deal is the best Brexit they will get
I reluctantly support the deal, but telling people that No deal wont be the outcome of voting it down is irresponsible when that is what the laws point to.
Indeed May.might well propose EUref2 if her Deal cannot get through0 -
I missed his ban; without re-opening, what was the offence?El_Capitano said:
Curious how a couple of hardcore Brexiteers with an uber-aggressive posting style have popped up since archer was banned.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t know much about the economy then do you. Exporters always have to comply with the trade regs of the country to whom they export. That is as true for U.K. companies exporting to the EU under Singke Marketrukes as it is for U.K. exporters selling to the US under WTO rules.not_on_fire said:
Well tough, the reality of the modern global economy is that common rules need to be followed between countries. It would of course far more preferably to have kept the status that meant we actually had a say in them.AmpfieldAndy said:
How does it actually gives back control of those. It says nothing about immigration, our trading laws are determined by Brussels with us having g no say; trade isn’t mentioned so the issue of paying for trade isn’t discussed let alone raised, and we are faced with being in a customs union which,together with the EU determining our trading laws, effectively rules out our ability to conclude any trade deals on our own.currystar said:
Have you read the deal? It does exactly that.AmpfieldAndy said:
That is not the point. Remainers didn’t get what they wanted in the referendum and look how badly they have behaved since - like spoilt brats.Bromptonaut said:
You cain’t always get what you want....AmpfieldAndy said:felix said:With apologies to the sensible 'Leavers' I now would prefer a second referendum in which I'd repeat my Remain vote and be moderately confident of victory. for me the antics of the 'ultras' have negated my willingness to accept the original result.
I voted Leave because I wanted a trade deal with the EU and nothing else. May should have stuck with David Davis’ approach. If there is a second referendum I shall still vote Leave. I think the behaviour of the Remoaners who have failed to respect the original referendum is abhorrent. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Leavers do not.
The problem with May’s deal is that it is not worth having at all. It has no merits and it doesn’t even give us back control of our borders, money and laws as he falsely claimed yesterday.
It doesn’t affect in the slightest how we choose to regulate our domestic economy and there is no sensible reason whatsoever for us to bind our domestic economy, which is 80% of our GDP, by the rules of the Single Market.0 -
Most of politics is about relationships and respect. Unfortunately, TMay has never really built relationships within her party and particularly her cabinet, result? Having sent Olly Robbins off to Brussels to negotiate the leaving, with two appointed cabinet ministers to twiddle their thumbs completely outside the box, then presents the "Final Document" as all her own work.
Davis was a waste of space and his reputation has been severely damaged, but Raab was clever enough but appointed too late, but from the beginning, she appointed the wrong people into the wrong positions for the wrong reasons - and the whole of the Westminster Bubble knows it.
She has lost her own party, and the respect due to a PM, by everyone else. Whatever she came up with was always going to be destroyed.0 -
I can believe your first sentence which is why the deal must be voted on in the commons. If it is crap and must fall they must collectively, as Mps, reject it. Not have it withdrawn and, potentially at least, accidentally no deal and have some numpty say they might have voted for it after all.rcs1000 said:
There are a lot of people who want to vote against it to register a protest, but would secretly prefer it to pass. Which is why the 48 votes have not materialised. People want intellectual purity without the consequences, which means voting against something you hope will pass.DavidL said:
I was totally confident of that at the beginning of the week but yesterday was a shocker and no mistake. So many people will have to climb down from such peaks of pomposity that it is hard to imagine it happening any time soon. May's deal is the pragmatic thing to do but pragmatism is being trounced by vanity and self perceived virtuosity.rcs1000 said:
Well yes.John_M said:
It'll be a pity if Brexit is undone because Brexit Ultras can't compose themselves with a modicum of patience. We spent a long time in the EU. A gentle undocking over time would be better (and more respectful of a substantial minority who would like to reverse course!) than simply stripping naked and hurling ourselves out of the EU window.rcs1000 said:
"Perpetual" means "never ending or changing".daodao said:I disagree with your statement that "The May deal does not leave us as a perpetual vassal state." However, much of what you state is valid, and it may be better to look at the deal as a "cup half full", as the alternatives are likely to be much worse. I was merely highlighting the key issue, as I see things. I am not concerned about the implications for the 6 counties, as they are on the road to rejoining the rest of Ireland to make a whole nation once again.
I will bet you £5 that the UK-EU customs union ends before the heat death of the universe. I'll even offer you 10-1 if you like,
I am increasingly optimistic that the House of Commons will - reluctantly - back this deal.
I've loaded up on Dixons shares in anticipation.
But I do think it will fail and fail big. DavidL is right too many have to cling down too much, and more importantly labour need dozens to do so for this to pass.0 -
This guy lacks Archer's monomaniacal clarity.El_Capitano said:
Curious how a couple of hardcore Brexiteers with an uber-aggressive posting style have popped up since archer was banned.
I'm enjoying these Westminster shenanigans enormously,
"Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive
But to be a bitter remainer was very heaven."
Wordsworth0 -
Yes, Farage is warming up his UKIP leader return speech nowanothernick said:
But they are not making rational, evidence-based judgments. Many of them are cultists, just as blinkered and fanatical (perhaps more so) as Corbyn cultists. Brexit is the revealed truth and sullying it with compromises such as the May deal is sacrilege.HYUFD said:
We now have a Deal. If May cannot get her Deal through Parliament it will now likely be EUref2, perhaps even called by May herself.Mortimer said:
HYUFD - the legal default is No deal. Politics needs to happen for that to change in any direction.HYUFD said:
For goodness sake only 32% back No Deal in Sky's poll yesterday, that is even less popular than the poll tax.murali_s said:Also, as a country we should back May's deal. It's the only deal in town, even though it's obviously inferior to remaining in the EU.
The default to this deal is a hard Brexit. I wish the default was the status-quo (remaining in the EU) but sadly it isn't.
The default without this deal will end up being Remain, the question then is just when not if
We’re not led by sentient opinion polls.
No Deal now means riots on the streets with less than a third support for it that make the poll tax riots look like a picnic and the collapse of the £, the stock exchange and the economy. I repeat No Deal means it is a question of when not if we stay in the EU before next March or we rejoin the EEA with full single market and customs union membership after
Brexiteers better realise this Deal is the best Brexit they will get
And many of the less devoted followers revel in opposition, grievance, and victimhood. They don't really care if Brexit collapses, they will go back to their comfort zone and spend the rest of their lives blaming the EU for everything that is wrong in the world. Much easier than taking responsibility for the unholy mess they have created.0 -
If the concessions were made by her behind Raab's back as has been reported, then the Cabinet should oust her.TGOHF said:
Also May not being straight with Raab has had consequences.GIN1138 said:
Portillo's prediction is that it will be the Cabinet that does May in when they realize the deal won't get through Parliament and as Theresa won't abandon it they'll have to abandon her (to save the government and their jobs)Morris_Dancer said:Interesting snippet from Portillo:
https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/1063220990845452288
Shame This Week isn't on rather earlier, to be honest.0 -
If I had 1 pound every time I was told 48 letters were deffo almost in I'd have a good sight more than 48 quid.0
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So you want to hamstring part of the other 20% when we have a horrendous balance of payment deficit.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t know much about the economy then do you. Exporters always have to comply with the trade regs of the country to whom they export. That is as true for U.K. companies exporting to the EU under Singke Marketrukes as it is for U.K. exporters selling to the US under WTO rules.not_on_fire said:
Well tough, the reality of the modern global economy is that common rules need to be followed between countries. It would of course far more preferably to have kept the status that meant we actually had a say in them.AmpfieldAndy said:
How does it actually gives back control of those. It says nothing about immigration, our trading laws are determined by Brussels with us having g no say; trade isn’t mentioned so the issue of paying for trade isn’t discussed let alone raised, and we are faced with being in a customs union which,together with the EU determining our trading laws, effectively rules out our ability to conclude any trade deals on our own.currystar said:
Have you read the deal? It does exactly that.AmpfieldAndy said:
That is not the point. Remainers didn’t get what they wanted in the referendum and look how badly they have behaved since - like spoilt brats.Bromptonaut said:
You cain’t always get what you want....AmpfieldAndy said:felix said:With apologies to the sensible 'Leavers' I now would prefer a second referendum in which I'd repeat my Remain vote and be moderately confident of victory. for me the antics of the 'ultras' have negated my willingness to accept the original result.
I voted Leave because I wanted a trade deal with the EU and nothing else. May should have stuck with David Davis’ approach. If there is a second referendum I shall still vote Leave. I think the behaviour of the Remoaners who have failed to respect the original referendum is abhorrent. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Leavers do not.
The problem with May’s deal is that it is not worth having at all. It has no merits and it doesn’t even give us back control of our borders, money and laws as he falsely claimed yesterday.
It doesn’t affect in the slightest how we choose to regulate our domestic economy and there is no sensible reason whatsoever for us to bind our domestic economy, which is 80% of our GDP, by the rules of the Single Market.
Errm.. OK.0 -
Painful as it would be, would it not help our balance of payments?Pulpstar said:
So you want to hamstring part of the other 20% when we have a horrendous balance of payment deficit.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t know much about the economy then do you. Exporters always have to comply with the trade regs of the country to whom they export. That is as true for U.K. companies exporting to the EU under Singke Marketrukes as it is for U.K. exporters selling to the US under WTO rules.not_on_fire said:
Well tough, the reality of the modern global economy is that common rules need to be followed between countries. It would of course far more preferably to have kept the status that meant we actually had a say in them.AmpfieldAndy said:
How does it actually gives back control of those. It says nothing about immigration, our trading laws are determined by Brussels with us having g no say; trade isn’t mentioned so the issue of paying for trade isn’t discussed let alone raised, and we are faced with being in a customs union which,together with the EU determining our trading laws, effectively rules out our ability to conclude any trade deals on our own.currystar said:
Have you read the deal? It does exactly that.AmpfieldAndy said:
That is not the point. Remainers didn’t get what they wanted in the referendum and look how badly they have behaved since - like spoilt brats.Bromptonaut said:
You cain’t always get what you want....AmpfieldAndy said:felix said:With apologies to the sensible 'Leavers' I now would prefer a second referendum in which I'd repeat my Remain vote and be moderately confident of victory. for me the antics of the 'ultras' have negated my willingness to accept the original result.
I voted Leave because I wanted a trade deal with the EU and nothing else. May should have stuck with David Davis’ approach. If there is a second referendum I shall still vote Leave. I think the behaviour of the Remoaners who have failed to respect the original referendum is abhorrent. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Leavers do not.
The problem with May’s deal is that it is not worth having at all. It has no merits and it doesn’t even give us back control of our borders, money and laws as he falsely claimed yesterday.
It doesn’t affect in the slightest how we choose to regulate our domestic economy and there is no sensible reason whatsoever for us to bind our domestic economy, which is 80% of our GDP, by the rules of the Single Market.
Errm.. OK.0 -
Spot on Och Eye - add in her bizarre decision to make and keep the clot Hammond as CoTE when every budget turns to a turd and there should be little sympathy for her when she gets the boot.OchEye said:Most of politics is about relationships and respect. Unfortunately, TMay has never really built relationships within her party and particularly her cabinet, result? Having sent Olly Robbins off to Brussels to negotiate the leaving, with two appointed cabinet ministers to twiddle their thumbs completely outside the box, then presents the "Final Document" as all her own work.
Davis was a waste of space and his reputation has been severely damaged, but Raab was clever enough but appointed too late, but from the beginning, she appointed the wrong people into the wrong positions for the wrong reasons - and the whole of the Westminster Bubble knows it.
She has lost her own party, and the respect due to a PM, by everyone else. Whatever she came up with was always going to be destroyed.0 -
It will say things about both because there was no sensible reason he had not already sent in a letter as he and his cohort were furious about the plan already yet were pretending that could change without May going. It wasn't polite it was silly. I'm very glad he has finally acted as if he thinks the deal is that bad he should vote against her.AmpfieldAndy said:JRM has been all mouth and no trousers for a long time but yesterday, finally, he did actually act. Mrs May doesn’t have a monopoly on brains, has produced a dire Brexit that is actually worse than staying in the EU and has fundamentally misunderstood why Leave won. To deliver such an cataclysmic climb down as her Brexit deal, she has sacriced the Gov’s entire domestic policy agenda which is an abdication of good government.
JRM did the right thing yesterday. If Brady doesn’t get his 48 letters, it will say a lot more about the gutless winders on the Tory back benches than it will about JRM himself.
0 -
That assumes he reacts instantly. He may employ a cooling off period policy. He may not, but we do not know.Jonathan said:
If we have learned anything through this, they are simply not that clever.TheWhiteRabbit said:
or it's a clever ploy to pile the pressure on the waiverers.AndyJS said:"Confidence vote in PM now "likely" as Tory whips told to return to London - Sky sources"
https://news.sky.com/story/live-michael-gove-could-quit-as-theresa-may-refuses-to-ditch-brexit-draft-11555447
dunno
What's curious is that if they have now only just reached 48, there Brady must have been sitting on ewer than 20-25 letters in all this time. Nowhere near the 48.0 -
Immediately after the referendum, we had moans from the Remainers that we were paranoid, because we weren't over-joyed by our victory. Cheer up, you've won, they said..
The Leavers' fear was always that the EU and the Euro-fanatics would dissemble, time-waste, prevaricate (add your odd description) and generally hope to wear down the negotiators to maintain the status quo as long as possible, then claim we'd all changed our minds. The weariness has been achieved.
All very predictable. The EU is bureaucratic and never in a hurry, but acutely aware that the UK leaving will destabilise it.
There was no UK ready-made plan because Cameron prevented the CS from having one prepared, even in outline. The EU was never in a hurry to negotiate, and transition periods will always be time-wasting procedures. Mrs May's first priority was to keep the Tory party intact in the short-term. Labour's first priority was to gain power. The so-called will of the people was well down the list, if even on it.
Time now to move on to the final stages. A deal which basically guarantees more delay. Deadlock Parliament (which looks likely) and in desperation, reluctantly decide on another referendum to 'decide' the issue, hoping enough of the 'fed-up' will switch to secure a narrow victory. Celebrate a final decision and vow never to allow another referendum again. Hope the outrage will gradually dissipate.
This is what some of us feared all along. You didn't have to be Nostradamus. At least being cynical to start with means you're never going to be disappointed.0 -
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
0 -
How does that follow? All exporters have to meet the requirements of their export markets. That does not mean domestic suppliers have to do so.Pulpstar said:
So you want to hamstring part of the other 20% when we have a horrendous balance of payment deficit.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t know much about the economy then do you. Exporters always have to comply with the trade regs of the country to whom they export. That is as true for U.K. companies exporting to the EU under Singke Marketrukes as it is for U.K. exporters selling to the US under WTO rules.not_on_fire said:
Well tough, the reality of the modern global economy is that common rules need to be followed between countries. It would of course far more preferably to have kept the status that meant we actually had a say in them.AmpfieldAndy said:
How does it actually gives back control of those. It says nothing about immigration, our trading laws are determined by Brussels with us having g no say; trade isn’t mentioned so the issue of paying for trade isn’t discussed let alone raised, and we are faced with being in a customs union which,together with the EU determining our trading laws, effectively rules out our ability to conclude any trade deals on our own.currystar said:
Have you read the deal? It does exactly that.AmpfieldAndy said:
That is not the point. Remainers didn’t get what they wanted in the referendum and look how badly they have behaved since - like spoilt brats.Bromptonaut said:
You cain’t always get what you want....AmpfieldAndy said:felix said:With apologies to the sensible 'Leavers' I now would prefer a second referendum in which I'd repeat my Remain vote and be moderately confident of victory. for me the antics of the 'ultras' have negated my willingness to accept the original result.
I voted Leave because I wanted a trade deal with the EU and nothing else. May should have stuck with David Davis’ approach. If there is a second referendum I shall still vote Leave. I think the behaviour of the Remoaners who have failed to respect the original referendum is abhorrent. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Leavers do not.
The problem with May’s deal is that it is not worth having at all. It has no merits and it doesn’t even give us back control of our borders, money and laws as he falsely claimed yesterday.
It doesn’t affect in the slightest how we choose to regulate our domestic economy and there is no sensible reason whatsoever for us to bind our domestic economy, which is 80% of our GDP, by the rules of the Single Market.
Errm.. OK.
0 -
Plenty of people agreed with you on that when they were first appointed, even leavers.Roger said:
Interesting but not surprising. Though I now have quite a respect for Mrs May's qualities appointing Davis Johnson and Fox showed a reckless lack of judgementCarlottaVance said:"Interim Prime Minister"?
https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/10633443798201548800 -
0
-
Mr. kle4, not a stupid demand if you're playing for time, hoping May will be toppled without you having to either support or oppose her (and thereby annoy one side or the other).
Edited extra bit: got to go out for a bit. Will be interesting to see what drama will have occurred by this afternoon.0 -
His demand could well have been that Robbins gets out of the way.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
After Raab was deceived it's only fair.0 -
How is hamstringing the 20%. Nothing changes for them but it could potentially free up a lot of our domestic economy from costly compliance with EU regs to spend time and money more productively.Pulpstar said:
So you want to hamstring part of the other 20% when we have a horrendous balance of payment deficit.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t know much about the economy then do you. Exporters always have to comply with the trade regs of the country to whom they export. That is as true for U.K. companies exporting to the EU under Singke Marketrukes as it is for U.K. exporters selling to the US under WTO rules.not_on_fire said:
Well tough, the reality of the modern global economy is that common rules need to be followed between countries. It would of course far more preferably to have kept the status that meant we actually had a say in them.AmpfieldAndy said:
How does it actually gives back control of those. It says nothing about immigration, our trading laws are determined by Brussels with us having g no say; trade isn’t mentioned so the issue of paying for trade isn’t discussed let alone raised, and we are faced with being in a customs union which,together with the EU determining our trading laws, effectively rules out our ability to conclude any trade deals on our own.currystar said:
Have you read the deal? It does exactly that.AmpfieldAndy said:
That is not the point. Remainers didn’t get what they wanted in the referendum and look how badly they have behaved since - like spoilt brats.Bromptonaut said:
You cain’t always get what you want....AmpfieldAndy said:felix said:With apologies to the sensible 'Leavers' I now would prefer a second referendum in which I'd repeat my Remain vote and be moderately confident of victory. for me the antics of the 'ultras' have negated my willingness to accept the original result.
I voted Leave because I wanted a trade deal with the EU and nothing else. May should have stuck with David Davis’ approach. If there is a second referendum I shall still vote Leave. I think the behaviour of the Remoaners who have failed to respect the original referendum is abhorrent. They deserve a Corbyn Gov. Leavers do not.
The problem with May’s deal is that it is not worth having at all. It has no merits and it doesn’t even give us back control of our borders, money and laws as he falsely claimed yesterday.
It doesn’t affect in the slightest how we choose to regulate our domestic economy and there is no sensible reason whatsoever for us to bind our domestic economy, which is 80% of our GDP, by the rules of the Single Market.
Errm.. OK.0 -
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.0 -
kle4 said:
It will say things about both because there was no sensible reason he had not already sent in a letter as he and his cohort were furious about the plan already yet were pretending that could change without May going. It wasn't polite it was silly. I'm very glad he has finally acted as if he thinks the deal is that bad he should vote against her.AmpfieldAndy said:JRM has been all mouth and no trousers for a long time but yesterday, finally, he did actually act. Mrs May doesn’t have a monopoly on brains, has produced a dire Brexit that is actually worse than staying in the EU and has fundamentally misunderstood why Leave won. To deliver such an cataclysmic climb down as her Brexit deal, she has sacriced the Gov’s entire domestic policy agenda which is an abdication of good government.
JRM did the right thing yesterday. If Brady doesn’t get his 48 letters, it will say a lot more about the gutless winders on the Tory back benches than it will about JRM himself.
I agree that they have left it very late - too late, actually.0 -
In the outline on the future deal, noting that the four pillars of the single market are goods, services, capital and labour, it says on each in turn:AmpfieldAndy said:
We do come out the CAP but as trade hasn’t been discussed yet, then we don’t know whether we’ll have to pay towards further trade as countries like Norway currently do. Where, in May’s deal is immigration dealt with ?OblitusSumMe said:
I thought that it would:AmpfieldAndy said:rcs1000 said:
And Mrs May does not understand that?AmpfieldAndy said:
Leave win because it secured 52% of the votes compared to Remain’s 48%.rcs1000 said:
Leave won because Northern Ireland doesn't want to be connected economically with the Republic?AmpfieldAndy said:JRM has been all mouth and no trousers for a long time but yesterday, finally, he did actually act. Mrs May doesn’t have a monopoly on brains, has produced a dire Brexit that is actually worse than staying in the EU and has fundamentally misunderstood why Leave won. To deliver such an cataclysmic climb down as her Brexit deal, she has sacriced the Gov’s entire domestic policy agenda which is an abdication of good government.
JRM did the right thing yesterday. If Brady doesn’t get his 48 letters, it will say a lot more about the gutless winders on the Tory back benches than it will about JRM himself.
Well, it's a view.
How does her deal deliver anything that reflects why voted Leave ? It doesn’t give us control of anything - not our money, not our borders, and not our laws let alone anything else.
- stop us paying for the CAP.
- stop freedom of movement.
I think in all circumstances we have to follow regulations in the single market if we want to sell into the single market, so I don't see any scenario - except some sort of self-defeating trade war - where we do not have to follow EU law to some extent.
Your side have won. My side lost. Rejoice?
Goods - "Comprehensive arrangements creating a free trade area.."
Services - "Ambitious, comprehensive.."
Capital - "Provisions to enable free movement of capital.."
Labour - "Arrangements on temporary entry and stay of natural persons for business purposes in defined areas."
There is the cherry-picking the EU said they would never allow. What more can you expect?0 -
The current BBC news online headline is :" May defiant as Gove considers quitting."
Strength and weakness in one headline: defiance is a sign of strength (or perceived strength), and contrasts with 'considers', which is weak, an inaction.
It'd have been easy to write a headline that gave an opposite impression.0 -
She is either relying on the people opposing her deal to fragment because they oppose for contradictory reasons and so if she holds it together she wins. Or you totally misunderstand her and she knows it might not work and is doing her best to ensure they still have to officially reject the plan rather than get a cop out where it is pulled.Jonathan said:May has impressive resilience, but remains a lousy politician. She still takes the line ‘I am right’ and seems to think that fact alone will convince others to back her.
0 -
The lack of a reshuffle to fill the two vacant positions in the cabinet is probably indicative of something or other.
Even though I loathe May and her particular brand of High Anglican, WI, Heathite, Sunday Express toryism I do have an iota of sympathy for her in her desperate, albeit self-inflicted, position.0 -
On our side we had Robbins on theirs Selmayr, what could possibly have gone wrong?0
-
It's a nonsense, the deal is the deal. As Brexit Sec he could negotiate again with the EU after we're out. Perhaps May should leave the position vacant for the moment as there isn't anything to do there till March 29th now.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.0 -
Good point. Cons are determined at every stage to give Labour leverage and attack lines.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.0 -
I'm glad someone is. I'm having a breakdown.Dura_Ace said:
This guy lacks Archer's monomaniacal clarity.El_Capitano said:
Curious how a couple of hardcore Brexiteers with an uber-aggressive posting style have popped up since archer was banned.
I'm enjoying these Westminster shenanigans enormously,
"Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive
But to be a bitter remainer was very heaven."
Wordsworth0 -
Hey, leave us High Anglicans out of it!Dura_Ace said:The lack of a reshuffle to fill the two vacant positions in the cabinet is probably indicative of something or other.
Even though I loathe May and her particular brand of High Anglican, WI, Heathite, Sunday Express toryism I do have an iota of sympathy for her in her desperate, albeit self-inflicted, position.
(I live a couple of miles from one of the young Theresa’s parishes. Fair to say not many of my fellow churchgoers vote for her party.)0 -
Irrelevant at the moment - nobody is paying attention to Labour.TOPPING said:
Good point. Cons are determined at every stage to give Labour leverage and attack lines.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
0 -
That has been confirmed by the Austrian leader this morning and Merkel last night.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
No more negotiation, this deal or no deal0 -
Wasn't she widely predicted to ditch Hammond prior to the GE result?TGOHF said:
Spot on Och Eye - add in her bizarre decision to make and keep the clot Hammond as CoTE when every budget turns to a turd and there should be little sympathy for her when she gets the boot.OchEye said:Most of politics is about relationships and respect. Unfortunately, TMay has never really built relationships within her party and particularly her cabinet, result? Having sent Olly Robbins off to Brussels to negotiate the leaving, with two appointed cabinet ministers to twiddle their thumbs completely outside the box, then presents the "Final Document" as all her own work.
Davis was a waste of space and his reputation has been severely damaged, but Raab was clever enough but appointed too late, but from the beginning, she appointed the wrong people into the wrong positions for the wrong reasons - and the whole of the Westminster Bubble knows it.
She has lost her own party, and the respect due to a PM, by everyone else. Whatever she came up with was always going to be destroyed.
0 -
Not completely since it might mean minor changes are possibly only so labour could not substantively change as they claim.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
But he has massively undermined the argument since if he thinks it can be changed why shouldn't they try.
That report is one reason I'm sure he'll quit - he's revealed he doesn't support the draft, not merely that he is not happy with parts of it, so his position is untenable.0 -
You're kidding, right? Every Theresa May pronouncement of these past 24 hours has been aimed directly at the Labour Party MPs. Even her silky-voiced entreaty non-press conference was addressed to them.TGOHF said:
Irrelevant at the moment - nobody is paying attention to Labour.TOPPING said:
Good point. Cons are determined at every stage to give Labour leverage and attack lines.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.0 -
I'm sure he is. The collapse of Brexit is the only thing that could save UKIP from oblivion. And Farage needs a platform and salary, both of which will go if he loses his MEP position.HYUFD said:
Yes, Farage is warming up his UKIP leader return speech nowanothernick said:
But they are not making rational, evidence-based judgments. Many of them are cultists, just as blinkered and fanatical (perhaps more so) as Corbyn cultists. Brexit is the revealed truth and sullying it with compromises such as the May deal is sacrilege.HYUFD said:
We now have a Deal. If May cannot get her Deal through Parliament it will now likely be EUref2, perhaps even called by May herself.Mortimer said:
HYUFD - the legal default is No deal. Politics needs to happen for that to change in any direction.HYUFD said:
For goodness sake only 32% back No Deal in Sky's poll yesterday, that is even less popular than the poll tax.murali_s said:Also, as a country we should back May's deal. It's the only deal in town, even though it's obviously inferior to remaining in the EU.
The default to this deal is a hard Brexit. I wish the default was the status-quo (remaining in the EU) but sadly it isn't.
The default without this deal will end up being Remain, the question then is just when not if
We’re not led by sentient opinion polls.
No Deal now means riots on the streets with less than a third support for it that make the poll tax riots look like a picnic and the collapse of the £, the stock exchange and the economy. I repeat No Deal means it is a question of when not if we stay in the EU before next March or we rejoin the EEA with full single market and customs union membership after
Brexiteers better realise this Deal is the best Brexit they will get
And many of the less devoted followers revel in opposition, grievance, and victimhood. They don't really care if Brexit collapses, they will go back to their comfort zone and spend the rest of their lives blaming the EU for everything that is wrong in the world. Much easier than taking responsibility for the unholy mess they have created.0 -
It makes me wonder if Graham Brady is really a CCHQ sleeper (I'm sure he isn't).Alistair said:If I had 1 pound every time I was told 48 letters were deffo almost in I'd have a good sight more than 48 quid.
0 -
I think Joe Root may have won the Test with this innings, 106 off 126 balls, a fine attacking innings.
Perhaps May should take more inspiration from Root than from Boycott's bore them all to death approach. Root seems to be a more popular captain than Boycott too.0 -
Morning all,
Is today, the day of the 48?0 -
-
Except he has just said he is staying put at Defra.... if this is truekle4 said:
Not completely since it might mean minor changes are possibly only so labour could not substantively change as they claim.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
But he has massively undermined the argument since if he thinks it can be changed why shouldn't they try.
That report is one reason I'm sure he'll quit - he's revealed he doesn't support the draft, not merely that he is not happy with parts of it, so his position is untenable.
https://order-order.com/2018/11/16/gove-not-resigning/0 -
That is not confirmed. Barnier explicitly left it open in his press conference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That has been confirmed by the Austrian leader this morning and Merkel last night.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
No more negotiation, this deal or no deal0 -
I suspect this move by ERG to vnoc TM is another example of their lack of thinking things through.
TM wins, she brings back the deal, the deal is voted down, she then confirms a second referendum and there is nothing they can do to stop her0 -
-
Translation: May is going to win the VONC handilyBenpointer said:0 -
Barnier is a middle manager. Merkel, she say NEINJonathan said:
That is not confirmed. Barnier explicitly left it open in his press conference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That has been confirmed by the Austrian leader this morning and Merkel last night.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
No more negotiation, this deal or no deal0 -
He's the gatekeeper, and doing a good job. Personally I think he'll vote in favour of May though.FrankBooth said:
It makes me wonder if Graham Brady is really a CCHQ sleeper (I'm sure he isn't).Alistair said:If I had 1 pound every time I was told 48 letters were deffo almost in I'd have a good sight more than 48 quid.
0 -
Thats big backing for May.Scott_P said:0 -
Pretty feeble when 'minister not quitting' is breaking news.Scott_P said:
Now, how are Hunt, Javid and co going out to sell this deal today? Sitting back and letting the PM do it all won't do.0 -
That was Sky 's Europe report in the last 45 minutesJonathan said:
That is not confirmed. Barnier explicitly left it open in his press conference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That has been confirmed by the Austrian leader this morning and Merkel last night.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
No more negotiation, this deal or no deal0 -
If there is a VoNC and she loses, then surely we are looking at No Deal? The clock will have run out.0
-
It's not Barnier, it's everyone else that won't accept itBig_G_NorthWales said:
That was Sky 's Europe report in the last 45 minutesJonathan said:
That is not confirmed. Barnier explicitly left it open in his press conference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That has been confirmed by the Austrian leader this morning and Merkel last night.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
No more negotiation, this deal or no deal0 -
Yes, my timing is truly horrendous.philiph said:
Except he has just said he is staying put at Defra.... if this is truekle4 said:
Not completely since it might mean minor changes are possibly only so labour could not substantively change as they claim.DecrepitJohnL said:
Politically, Gove's renegotiation demand also gives the lie to the Conservatives' attack line that the deal is set in stone and could not be renegotiated by Labour.kle4 said:
which was a stupid demand. Even if it can be how substantive could it be? Because the problems people have with it aren't solved by tweaks.Mortimer said:
Not yet.GIN1138 said:One thing I missed in all yesterdays hubbub - Did Theresa ever manage to fill the vacant Brexit and Work and Pensions jobs? Or are those seats still empty in the Cabinet?
According to Sam Coates at the Times Gove gave her an ultimatum that he’d only take the job if allowed to renegotiate, at 4.45.
But he has massively undermined the argument since if he thinks it can be changed why shouldn't they try.
That report is one reason I'm sure he'll quit - he's revealed he doesn't support the draft, not merely that he is not happy with parts of it, so his position is untenable.
https://order-order.com/2018/11/16/gove-not-resigning/
Fortunately I don't let being wrong a lot slow me down. I share that trait with May and Corbyn.
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Tom Watson emphasising this morning, that 2nd vote is an option.Big_G_NorthWales said:I suspect this move by ERG to vnoc TM is another example of their lack of thinking things through.
TM wins, she brings back the deal, the deal is voted down, she then confirms a second referendum and there is nothing they can do to stop her0 -
Who the f*** knows to be honest.rottenborough said:If there is a VoNC and she loses, then surely we are looking at No Deal? The clock will have run out.
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What have things come to when the headline is that a minister is not resigning.
Reminds me of the old HMF sober/drunk joke (which in effect had one orderly officer reporting in the logs that another officer was drunk on duty; when it was the other officers turn at orderly officer he reported that the first officer was sober on duty...)0 -
If she loses the VONC (Which quite obviously kills the deal), after crying over my betfair losses I'll get on the nauseating "People's vote" bandwagon.rottenborough said:If there is a VoNC and she loses, then surely we are looking at No Deal? The clock will have run out.
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If she loses I cannot predict but the utter horror of no deal within the HOC is likely to see it preventedrottenborough said:If there is a VoNC and she loses, then surely we are looking at No Deal? The clock will have run out.
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So she will argue. Some in her party want that. Others take the labour approach of 'something would work out'. Reassuring.rottenborough said:If there is a VoNC and she loses, then surely we are looking at No Deal? The clock will have run out.
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