This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Could Paul Nuttall hurry up and resign after his lamentable performance? Some of us have bets riding on him doing so and I don't want it spoiled by the Prime Minister succumbing to a bout of integrity.
She's resigning today.
I suppose it is just possible Nuttall beats her to it but otherwise go directly to Betfair, now.
Well she should. The difficult bit is working out how to manage the transition or whether the Conservatives go straight to a unity candidate (they don't seem in the mood for that).
The Conservatives should stop worrying about their own mood and start thinking about the mood of the country. This could get ugly.
A little contrition wouldn't go amiss.
The Conservatives aren't in the least contrite. They think the only mistake was in the execution rather than the content. If they were chocolate, they'd eat themselves.
I thought the electorate gave some pretty clear signals yesterday. The Conservatives need to consider how they are going to address them.
Absolutely correct. The arrogance is astonishing. All I'm hearing is that the silly old British public - and the pampered youth in particular - weren't intellectually equipped enough to appreciate their, and Theresa's, unquestionable talents. I'm starting to think that a bit of the 1997 treatment would do them some good.
If it goes to a second election they might get it.
Raving Marxists in the Labour party and a hung parliament. Welcome to 1974!
Brexit Secretary David Davis could be being primed to take the fall for Theresa may's disastrous performance in last night's election.
Mr Davis is now the greatest threat to the Tory leadership.
ITV News' Chris Ship said Boris Johnson's team is "trying to pin the election fail" on him as Mrs May is now "damaged goods".
He added former Chancellor George Osborne had said "Boris (who many have speculated wants to be one day be prime minister) has a little smile on his face today".
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
On a personal level I feel sorry for her, last night she looked crushed by it all.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Everyone's got to forget Brexit. It's not going to happen.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
She needs to let the Labour coalition have a crack at running things, fail over the next twelve months, and collapse - otherwise I think that, when we go back to the polls in six months time well end up with a labour absolute majority under the current leadership.
Yes in any normal circumstances that would be a potential strategy. But there is Brexit to contend with. Labour can't be trusted with it.
Wherever you stand right now Brexit is fucked; it's fast EEA or bust.
I don't see brexit in doubt, that would have required a lib dem surge.
EEA is brexit. And, in the long term, EEA + 12 months of Corbyn would be far better than Crash out + 5 years of Corbyn for the first 75% of the population.
Brexit Secretary David Davis could be being primed to take the fall for Theresa may's disastrous performance in last night's election.
Mr Davis is now the greatest threat to the Tory leadership.
ITV News' Chris Ship said Boris Johnson's team is "trying to pin the election fail" on him as Mrs May is now "damaged goods".
He added former Chancellor George Osborne had said "Boris (who many have speculated wants to be one day be prime minister) has a little smile on his face today".
Could Paul Nuttall hurry up and resign after his lamentable performance? Some of us have bets riding on him doing so and I don't want it spoiled by the Prime Minister succumbing to a bout of integrity.
She's resigning today.
I suppose it is just possible Nuttall beats her to it but otherwise go directly to Betfair, now.
Well she should. The difficult bit is working out how to manage the transition or whether the Conservatives go straight to a unity candidate (they don't seem in the mood for that).
The Conservatives should stop worrying about their own mood and start thinking about the mood of the country. This could get ugly.
A little contrition wouldn't go amiss.
The Conservatives aren't in the least contrite. They think the only mistake was in the execution rather than the content. If they were chocolate, they'd eat themselves.
I thought the electorate gave some pretty clear signals yesterday. The Conservatives need to consider how they are going to address them.
Absolutely correct. The arrogance is astonishing. All I'm hearing is that the silly old British public - and the pampered youth in particular - weren't intellectually equipped enough to appreciate their, and Theresa's, unquestionable talents. I'm starting to think that a bit of the 1997 treatment would do them some good.
I am going to go out on a limb here as I have not really crunched the numbers. But it seems to me it is dumb for anyone to blame the young vote for this result (even though of course they did increase their turnout.) That on its own would not have been enough. It took the Tories managing to piss off their core elder vote as well to make the real difference. Yes Corbyn managed to enthuse the young but turnout was only up 2% so it took a lot of older voters to sit on their hands or switch away from the Tories to make this result happen.
The fault for all of this lies squarely with May and her team.
Yep, that dementia tax, and police numbers were utterly toxic, and really the turning point.
Don't forget the foxes! Many Pensioners are animal lovers.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
Brexit Secretary David Davis could be being primed to take the fall for Theresa may's disastrous performance in last night's election.
Mr Davis is now the greatest threat to the Tory leadership.
ITV News' Chris Ship said Boris Johnson's team is "trying to pin the election fail" on him as Mrs May is now "damaged goods".
He added former Chancellor George Osborne had said "Boris (who many have speculated wants to be one day be prime minister) has a little smile on his face today".
Would be funny if UKIP re-surge and take more votes off labour again in the next election.
Brexit won't happen (there's no majority and little will within Parliament to do it) so not only will UKIP under Farage surge but those that have had Brexit stolen from them will be incredibly angry.
It's going to get nasty,,,
Something will happen that they can call "Brexit". We were weak before the election, now we are very exposed.
Just had a friend on the blower from Crewe & nantwich spitting feathers. He is no tory fanboy but said timpson was a really good constituency mp.
That is seriously impressive of may to lose a seat that is brexit central, hardly any students and a totally scandal free well respected and well known local mp whose family has serious name recognition in the area for their business and charity work.
The fate of the Fixed Term Parliament Act is now incredibly important. The Tories promised to repeal it but arguably it provides their best defence for the next five years!
Ozzie noted that too re being no certainty another election later this year due to it remaining in force and Tory mps likely won't want one.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
they can spend the next five years making a success of Brexit, culminating in offering £350million a week to the NHS in the next manifesto instead of social care, and drip feeding serious economic doubts about labours credibility to handle the nations finances and put a better leader in place before 2022 who can hurt Labour and can resonate with the young and old. There is still the opportunity here to turn this around for the tories
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Various EU big cheeses are reported as saying Brexit talks can be delayed. The German election is in September which gives plenty of time for Theresa May to be replaced.
For sure, having less time for talks is in the EU27 interests as they attempt to push through a bad deal. Post article 50 clock is ticking. UK needs to get started now.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
But less adept at using parliamentary procedure and doing all the co-ordinating, teamwork and basic management/leadership that such an opposition strategy would require?
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Optically it might be better to write off the debt and levy a graduate tax. When I graduated in the 80s I paid 34% tax on everything I earned over about £2.5k, which was about £10k in total. So my degree was free, but my taxes were higher than they are now. It would probably be revenue neutral.
What's missing from this student debt stuff is that universities aren't going bust when their expensive degrees turn out to be worthless in the market. If that happened nobody would start their working life in a non grad job with £40k of debt. If they had the debt the degree that gave rise to it would command a salary that made it worthwhile.
Could Paul Nuttall hurry up and resign after his lamentable performance? Some of us have bets riding on him doing so and I don't want it spoiled by the Prime Minister succumbing to a bout of integrity.
She's resigning today.
I suppose it is just possible Nuttall beats her to it but otherwise go directly to Betfair, now.
Well she should. The difficult bit is working out how to manage the transition or whether the Conservatives go straight to a unity candidate (they don't seem in the mood for that).
The Conservatives should stop worrying about their own mood and start thinking about the mood of the country. This could get ugly.
A little contrition wouldn't go amiss.
The Conservatives aren't in the least contrite. They think the only mistake was in the execution rather than the content. If they were chocolate, they'd eat themselves.
I thought the electorate gave some pretty clear signals yesterday. The Conservatives need to consider how they are going to address them.
Absolutely correct. The arrogance is astonishing. All I'm hearing is that the silly old British public - and the pampered youth in particular - weren't intellectually equipped enough to appreciate their, and Theresa's, unquestionable talents. I'm starting to think that a bit of the 1997 treatment would do them some good.
I am going to go out on a limb here as I have not really crunched the numbers. But it seems to me it is dumb for anyone to blame the young vote for this result (even though of course they did increase their turnout.) That on its own would not have been enough. It took the Tories managing to piss off their core elder vote as well to make the real difference. Yes Corbyn managed to enthuse the young but turnout was only up 2% so it took a lot of older voters to sit on their hands or switch away from the Tories to make this result happen.
The fault for all of this lies squarely with May and her team.
Yep, that dementia tax, and police numbers were utterly toxic, and really the turning point.
Don't forget the foxes! Many Pensioners are animal lovers.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Doesn't NI have any young voters?
Plenty. And most vote Sinn Fein or DUP.
So my point is that DUp might not retain its share of them if an NI election becomes a proxy second GE?
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Yes but SF would also make gains and the centre will be almost crushed. Hardly a positive.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Everyone's got to forget Brexit. It's not going to happen.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
Don't be ridiculous. We're on course for a transitional Brexit where we leave in stages. If we manage to leave for EFTA/EEA we can sort out our global trading position over the next 3-4 years and get a bespoke trading deal with the EU afterwards that leaves us with the ability to trade freely and easily with the EU and the rest of the world while having some kind of border control system.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Doesn't NI have any young voters?
Plenty. And most vote Sinn Fein or DUP.
Unionism in both Scotland and Northern Ireland will now be indelibly linked with this minority Conservative government trying to negotiate Brexit.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
Just had a friend on the blower from Crewe & nantwich spitting feathers. He is no tory fanboy but said timpson was a really good constituency mp.
That is seriously impressive of may to lose a seat that is brexit central, hardly any students and a totally scandal free well respected and well known local mp whose family has serious name recognition in the area for their business and charity work.
Yep, she threatened to steal her own voters WFA (while continuing to let Scottish voters keep there's) and steal people's houses if they get dementia!
That's what's done for her.
And as for trying to blame David David for this cluster **** Ugh!
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Everyone's got to forget Brexit. It's not going to happen.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
Don't be ridiculous. We're on course for a transitional Brexit where we leave in stages. If we manage to leave for EFTA/EEA we can sort out our global trading position over the next 3-4 years and get a bespoke trading deal with the EU afterwards that leaves us with the ability to trade freely and easily with the EU and the rest of the world while having some kind of border control system.
If we Brexited into an EEA style transitional arrangement that would only start in 2019. The timetable is already laid out in the EU27's negotiation guidelines. They control the timing and roadmap, and there's no shortcut on the technical issues to be dealt with in the Article 50 process.
She needs to let the Labour coalition have a crack at running things, fail over the next twelve months, and collapse - otherwise I think that, when we go back to the polls in six months time, we'll end up with a labour absolute majority under the current leadership.
Labour don't have close to the numbers to form a government. Even the backing of Plaid, SNP, and Greens would only take them up to 300.
Sit out the confidence vote - it's not just up or down, abstain is also an option.
What makes anyone confident that a Corbyn government that lost a confidence vote in the House would then resign?
He lost one in his leadership and didn't resign.
Because one was a meaningless advisory vote that had no meaning, the other is not. Labour's rulebook has no such thing as a confidence vote, the way to get rid of a leader is to challenge them - so he called their bluff and won.
Westminster's rulebook does have a confidence vote. Lose that and you're out.
Interesting, thanks. Where is the rule written down and what makes it binding? Wasn't it the case in the past that governments resigned if defeated on any major measure (but of course no longer do)?
Just had a friend on the blower from Crewe & nantwich spitting feathers. He is no tory fanboy but said timpson was a really good constituency mp.
That is seriously impressive of may to lose a seat that is brexit central, hardly any students and a totally scandal free well respected and well known local mp whose family has serious name recognition in the area for their business and charity work.
Yes, the worst loss for me. Inexplicable. Timpson is precisely the kind of MP they need if they are to win round more voters. Does seem a shame the likes of him and Rory Stewart have been locked away.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
Could Starmer survive the Momentumers screams of betrayal? He could find himself without a whip and running against one of his own - possibly in less than a year.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Doesn't NI have any young voters?
Plenty. And most vote Sinn Fein or DUP.
So my point is that DUp might not retain its share of them if an NI election becomes a proxy second GE?
I heard Daniel Finkelstein the archetypal Tory intellectual say that Labour was now representing the better educated younger professionals who were mainly Remainers whereas the Tories were targetting the uneducated older voters who were mainly Leavers.
If this is the new division in politics it spells disaster for the Tories into the future. If the young are now prepared to vote to overturn the old order The Times They Are A Changing
Problem is the young tend to lean left wing and have for a long long time, don't see how the Conservatives can win them over. It's an ideological thing or where just young people sit on the political spectrum at that age and a lot shift more to the right as they get older.
This is why I know another election is likely this year and I can see Labour winning it.
Would be funny if UKIP re-surge and take more votes off labour again in the next election.
Brexit won't happen (there's no majority and little will within Parliament to do it) so not only will UKIP under Farage surge but those that have had Brexit stolen from them will be incredibly angry.
It's going to get nasty,,,
The Tories are going to lose their UKIP supporters and move back down to say 35% share.
If there is an election in the near term, Corbyn is going to lead a majority Labour government. UKIP has it in their power to make that happen by splitting the Tory vote.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Doesn't NI have any young voters?
Plenty. And most vote Sinn Fein or DUP.
Unionism in both Scotland and Northern Ireland will now be indelibly linked with this minority Conservative government trying to negotiate Brexit.
Can Nikkla detoxify the Nats ?
To motivate such numbers of red, blue and orange to forgo their tribal beliefs in an to stop Indyref 2 in such numbers is an epic fail of Maysian proportions.
Young people cant buy and renting is killing them, all roads leave to Right to Buy, the most stupid policy ever.
It's time to gut the buy-to-let sector and crash the housing market and introduce government backed mortgages for first time buyers. We've got five years until the next election, a recession is due anyway. Parasitical landlords (the parents of those young people struggling to get on the housing ladder, sadly) need to be made an example of, destroy the sector and raise home ownership levels again.
First of all, sympathies to all the decent Tories out there like @david_herdson who work bloody hard only to be let down by the worst Conservative leader in living memory.
May must go, and go now. She has lost. She cannot lead her party, least of all her country, and the DUP 'deal' is so weak as to be useless. Any such coalition won't last the year.
Finally... checks betting slip. Labour @10-1 in Leeds NW. I wish I could remember who tipped this on here. Was it Peter? Anyway, my one and only bet of the election is a big winner.
Commiserations to all PBers who lost money. I suspect many lost a great deal on the Tory majority.
Young people cant buy and renting is killing them, all roads leave to Right to Buy, the most stupid policy ever.
But having a council house is not the same as owning a property? The youth want property, not council houses.
my nephew would kill for a one bed flat in Enfield for £80pw, he is 25 and sick of living with 2 stupid girls who vomit on the toilet floor when drunk
Well London and the South East is maybe a special case. I pay £80 a week for a brand new 3 bedroom house with a garden within 20 minutes walk of Newcastle City Centre.
Morning all from that banana republic of unstable governments and frequent changes of PMs, Italy.
They are laughing at us this morning, by the way.
An horrific night although it turned out slightly less horrific than I expected when the exit poll confirmed all the fears I had been articulating on here for weeks including the cold sweat "Revenge of the Youthful Remainers" vision I posted about yesterday morning. Kudos to Davidson. She might have saved the Union, the UK economy and the Tory Party. Otherwise what a fucking disaster with bells on.
I think May has to plough on. Folk voted Tory in their millions yesterday in support of her and whilst she's humiliated beyond belief, the nation cannot indulge the Tory Party having another leadership change 11 months on.
But the Tories longer term are surely sunk. Another GE any time soon will see a Labour majority for certain whoever leads them. One imagines a possible South Thanet by election in the near term will decrease Tory numbers and UKIP standing there presumably open it up to a resurgent Labour. It's another Black Wednesday moment - a needless GE which has divided the nation further and made Brexit even more impossible. Only after a period of Labour government can the Tories recover from this. And yet they probably weren't that far from an increased majority. Fine margins.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Everyone's got to forget Brexit. It's not going to happen.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
Don't be ridiculous. We're on course for a transitional Brexit where we leave in stages. If we manage to leave for EFTA/EEA we can sort out our global trading position over the next 3-4 years and get a bespoke trading deal with the EU afterwards that leaves us with the ability to trade freely and easily with the EU and the rest of the world while having some kind of border control system.
We're in a national emergency now. Brexit was a good idea a year ago but through the idiocy of the Tory Party it's all fallen apart - This is now a fight to keep the lights on for UKPLC literally.
We need to find a way out of Brexit ASAP (of course that will lead to a surge in support for Farage and probable street riots with people having Brexit stolen from them but we are where we are)
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
I think we may see a "Brexit negotiating committee" to which Starmer and even Cable will be invited to join. They'd be absolute idiots to accept, but I don't see how they could turn it down.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Equally to the point, if SF just sit there, can the government avoid another Stormont election (assuming direct rule is a non-starter)? If there is another NI election it will be a proxy for another mini-referendum on the Tory government by NI voters. Given the concerns about Brexit that the province has, it is hard to see the DUP improving its position?
If Northern Ireland voted in a fresh Assembly election as it did yesterday, the DUP would win very big.
Doesn't NI have any young voters?
Plenty. And most vote Sinn Fein or DUP.
Unionism in both Scotland and Northern Ireland will now be indelibly linked with this minority Conservative government trying to negotiate Brexit.
Just had a friend on the blower from Crewe & nantwich spitting feathers. He is no tory fanboy but said timpson was a really good constituency mp.
That is seriously impressive of may to lose a seat that is brexit central, hardly any students and a totally scandal free well respected and well known local mp whose family has serious name recognition in the area for their business and charity work.
Yes, the worst loss for me. Inexplicable. Timpson is precisely the kind of MP they need if they are to win round more voters. Does seem a shame the likes of him and Rory Stewart have been locked away.
Rory the tory is a seriously impressive individual. The likes of kwasi kwarteng as well. Instead we have the shit show of may clinging on and a smirking John the Marxist all over my tv screens.
This deal with the DUP is going to utterly toxify the Tories. The Tories will hold Mansfield in the next election mind
One can only wonder at the DUP shopping list :
1. Reverend Ian Paisley Snr interred in Buckingham Palace. 2. Flat earth atlases in schools. 3. Gays to be thrown off from the walls of the Tower of London 4. Peter Tatchell to be extradited to Mosul 5. RUC reformed. 6. Sinn Fein members to be interned on the Falkland Islands 7. UDA to be merged into the army. 8. Roman Catholic churches to be closed. 9. Dinosaurs to be removed from museums.
Lol! Thank you Jack. Needed a laugh this morning.
How's the ARSE? Not too sore I hope.
My ARSE retired after POTUS and I think JWBWI should too !! ....
Fortunately as is my usual practice I closed down all my positions over the past week and was looking forward to coming back after the exit poll .... and then WOW. I had to reassess bloody quickly and added to the Mrs JackW shoe fund over the hours that followed.
My reputation is on the floor but fortunately my wallet didn't join it in an empty state.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
I think we may see a "Brexit negotiating committee" to which Starmer and even Cable will be invited to join. They'd be absolute idiots to accept, but I don't see how they could turn it down.
Very easily, they just say they don't want to be part of a coalition of chaos.
Young people cant buy and renting is killing them, all roads leave to Right to Buy, the most stupid policy ever.
I don't understand how you get to that conclusion, If a council house is sold then it is one less rented property and one more bought property.
Governments have done lots of stupid things that have paused up the price of housing, both rents and sale prices, above what they should/would be if left to the free market, but selling council houses is not one of them.
We don't want Vince. Farron stays, or Swinson takes over.
Agreed
How much of a handicap do you think is having a party led from Scotland nowadays?
We've done well in the past under Steele and Kennedy. So I would think not a handicap at all. I'd vote for Jo Swinson. We also need someone who can handle Vince.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
I think we may see a "Brexit negotiating committee" to which Starmer and even Cable will be invited to join. They'd be absolute idiots to accept, but I don't see how they could turn it down.
Not f##kigg Vince cable he would spend every minute leaking to the press and trying to sabotage everything and anything. He was one of the worst coalition ministers.
I would put far more blame on Lynton Crosby. As he always does he treats the electorate like simpletons who can only absorb one simple message oft repeated. That is both old fashioned and inappropriate for a better educated and younger audience.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Everyone's got to forget Brexit. It's not going to happen.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
Don't be ridiculous. We're on course for a transitional Brexit where we leave in stages. If we manage to leave for EFTA/EEA we can sort out our global trading position over the next 3-4 years and get a bespoke trading deal with the EU afterwards that leaves us with the ability to trade freely and easily with the EU and the rest of the world while having some kind of border control system.
We're in a national emergency now. Brexit was a good idea a year ago but through the idiocy of the Tory Party it's all fallen apart - This is now a fight to keep the lights on for UKPLC literally.
We need to find a way out of Brexit ASAP (of course that will lead to a surge in support for Farage and probable street riots with people having Brexit stolen from them but we are where we are)
No need to be so alarmist. Labour are still 50 seats behind and once we get rid of May at least some of the problems go away. The new PM is going to dump house theft immediately, for example, we will probably extend the triple lock (sadly) and keep the WFA for everyone to get older voters back on side. May and her team will get shat on from the greatest of heights by the next PM, the stink of her policies need to be purged.
UKIP smashed to smitherooons Massive swathes of Scotland turn blue Labour's allies in NI the SDLP wiped out Prospect of NI MPs joining the government, making it, along with the new Scots Tories, a truly UK administration.
Young people cant buy and renting is killing them, all roads leave to Right to Buy, the most stupid policy ever.
I don't understand how you get to that conclusion, If a council house is sold then it is one less rented property and one more bought property.
Governments have done lots of stupid things that have paused up the price of housing, both rents and sale prices, above what they should/would be if left to the free market, but selling council houses is not one of them.
My friend owns over 100 ex-LA flats, the company is registered in the BVI via Panama etc. It pays no tax and the flats are used by AirBnB for £100 per night. Why should tenants be able to buy at a discount?
I would put far more blame on Lynton Crosby. As he always does he treats the electorate like simpletons who can only absorb one simple message oft repeated. That is both old fashioned and inappropriate for a better educated and younger audience.
Lynton Crosby only joined the campaign in April and by all accounts wielded far less power than these two. Timothy, Hill and May should take the blame here.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
I think we may see a "Brexit negotiating committee" to which Starmer and even Cable will be invited to join. They'd be absolute idiots to accept, but I don't see how they could turn it down.
Very easily, they just say they don't want to be part of a coalition of chaos.
Then every time either party disagrees with the Tories it will come down to "well we asked if you wanted to be a part of the process". If offered I'm not sure they can turn it down.
With regards to how to sort out the young people. Anyone that feels that a graduate tax is one way to get them back then you're very, very delusional. If anything we'll hear that a new special tax is being levied on us, and go even further towards Lab.
Any offer to the young has to be near what Lab are offering. I.e. tuition fees dropped to at least 3k.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Agreed. The Tories could go down the 1923 route and refuse to govern, put Jezza in for a yea and then collapse the administration next year - From the 1923 defeat the Tories won a landslide in 1924.
If the most important post war negotiations weren't starting in 10 days they may have been tempted. No alternative for May but to stick it out.
Horrific situation all round, but for the fact it's entirely of her own making I'd feel sorry for her.
Everyone's got to forget Brexit. It's not going to happen.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
Don't be ridiculous. We're on course for a transitional Brexit where we leave in stages. If we manage to leave for EFTA/EEA we can sort out our global trading position over the next 3-4 years and get a bespoke trading deal with the EU afterwards that leaves us with the ability to trade freely and easily with the EU and the rest of the world while having some kind of border control system.
We're in a national emergency now. Brexit was a good idea a year ago but through the idiocy of the Tory Party it's all fallen apart - This is now a fight to keep the lights on for UKPLC literally.
We need to find a way out of Brexit ASAP (of course that will lead to a surge in support for Farage and probable street riots with people having Brexit stolen from them but we are where we are)
No need to be so alarmist. Labour are still 50 seats behind and once we get rid of May at least some of the problems go away. The new PM is going to dump house theft immediately, for example, we will probably extend the triple lock (sadly) and keep the WFA for everyone to get older voters back on side. May and her team will get shat on from the greatest of heights by the next PM, the stink of her policies need to be purged.
I just don't see how the Tories can win these young people back without Labour having a stint in government?
Me neither, but they need to really start thinking about how to do
Lots of sweeties?
I think that student debt is too high. The fees being raised from £3k to £9k (and now even higher) was a terrible mistake and meant that people started off working life going from £10k debt (manageable) to £40k debt (ridiculous). And then they have to try and buy an overpriced house.
Changing fees back to £3k (applied retrospectively) and even making it free for key subjects I think needs to be looked at.
Corbyn could never actually deliver on this because of the rest of his policies, but the Tories could.
Even with fees at 3k, the debt typically is 25k because of maintenance loans.
Labour needs to get tactically sharp and start putting some carefully considered proposals and amendments in Parliament. If they choose their ground carefully it will be very difficult for May to hold her side together.
This is where Corbyn becomes an asset for the Tories. For two years they bungled their way through Parliament, but clearly they know how to campaign and sell a message/idea.
The Tories need to get a few Labour moderates on board, maybe involve Starmer in Brexit as a national interest. The division in Labour is still huge, it's just the Blairites are going to keep quiet about it until Corbyn steers them further to the left.
I think we may see a "Brexit negotiating committee" to which Starmer and even Cable will be invited to join. They'd be absolute idiots to accept, but I don't see how they could turn it down.
LOL! Why on Earth should Starmer and Cable get involved with this shower of sh*te?
Comments
But this is a situation of her own making.
We need to get down on our hands and knees and beg/grovel to the EU to let us stay.
That is seriously impressive of may to lose a seat that is brexit central, hardly any students and a totally scandal free well respected and well known local mp whose family has serious name recognition in the area for their business and charity work.
What's missing from this student debt stuff is that universities aren't going bust when their expensive degrees turn out to be worthless in the market. If that happened nobody would start their working life in a non grad job with £40k of debt. If they had the debt the degree that gave rise to it would command a salary that made it worthwhile.
That's what's done for her.
And as for trying to blame David David for this cluster **** Ugh!
If it came to a Conservative Party Leadership election between David Davis and Boris, which way would PB Torys vote?
If this is the new division in politics it spells disaster for the Tories into the future. If the young are now prepared to vote to overturn the old order The Times They Are A Changing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ
This is why I know another election is likely this year and I can see Labour winning it.
If there is an election in the near term, Corbyn is going to lead a majority Labour government. UKIP has it in their power to make that happen by splitting the Tory vote.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3760850/tory-mps-fury-at-theresa-mays-aides-nick-timothy-and-fiona-hill-over-disastrous-election-2017-campaign/
To motivate such numbers of red, blue and orange to forgo their tribal beliefs in an to stop Indyref 2 in such numbers is an epic fail of Maysian proportions.
First of all, sympathies to all the decent Tories out there like @david_herdson who work bloody hard only to be let down by the worst Conservative leader in living memory.
May must go, and go now. She has lost. She cannot lead her party, least of all her country, and the DUP 'deal' is so weak as to be useless. Any such coalition won't last the year.
Finally... checks betting slip. Labour @10-1 in Leeds NW. I wish I could remember who tipped this on here. Was it Peter? Anyway, my one and only bet of the election is a big winner.
Commiserations to all PBers who lost money. I suspect many lost a great deal on the Tory majority.
DD is yesterdays man. Again.
They are laughing at us this morning, by the way.
An horrific night although it turned out slightly less horrific than I expected when the exit poll confirmed all the fears I had been articulating on here for weeks including the cold sweat "Revenge of the Youthful Remainers" vision I posted about yesterday morning. Kudos to Davidson. She might have saved the Union, the UK economy and the Tory Party. Otherwise what a fucking disaster with bells on.
I think May has to plough on. Folk voted Tory in their millions yesterday in support of her and whilst she's humiliated beyond belief, the nation cannot indulge the Tory Party having another leadership change 11 months on.
But the Tories longer term are surely sunk. Another GE any time soon will see a Labour majority for certain whoever leads them. One imagines a possible South Thanet by election in the near term will decrease Tory numbers and UKIP standing there presumably open it up to a resurgent Labour. It's another Black Wednesday moment - a needless GE which has divided the nation further and made Brexit even more impossible. Only after a period of Labour government can the Tories recover from this. And yet they probably weren't that far from an increased majority. Fine margins.
Deeply uneasy but not as fretful as I was.
Edited extra bit: sorry, did you mean actual Conservatives, or the PB Tories [which is almost everyone]?
I wouldn't have a vote in such a leadership contest.
We need to find a way out of Brexit ASAP (of course that will lead to a surge in support for Farage and probable street riots with people having Brexit stolen from them but we are where we are)
Just like in 2015, GIGO!
Not my fault, mind
Fortunately as is my usual practice I closed down all my positions over the past week and was looking forward to coming back after the exit poll .... and then WOW. I had to reassess bloody quickly and added to the Mrs JackW shoe fund over the hours that followed.
My reputation is on the floor but fortunately my wallet didn't join it in an empty state.
Governments have done lots of stupid things that have paused up the price of housing, both rents and sale prices, above what they should/would be if left to the free market, but selling council houses is not one of them.
PS Nigel Evans taking the Tory manifesto apart on ITV at the moment
UKIP smashed to smitherooons
Massive swathes of Scotland turn blue
Labour's allies in NI the SDLP wiped out
Prospect of NI MPs joining the government, making it, along with the new Scots Tories, a truly UK administration.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/867850918871445504
Any offer to the young has to be near what Lab are offering. I.e. tuition fees dropped to at least 3k.