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If the polls are anything close to correct then this is shaping up to be the most fascinating election to be held during my lifetime.
Even as a Lib Dem (albeit one who used to vote Conservative at all previous general elections until the EU referendum showed me that I'm more "yellow" than "blue") I don't find it at all difficult to understand Theresa May's popularity. I'll readily concede that I find her to be the most likeable of the party leaders by some distance. I don't even feel particularly uncomfortable with the idea of a Conservative landslide or super-landslide in the present circumstances... though obviously I would very much prefer very substantial Lib Dem progress. The main thing is that Corbyn's Labour needs to be politically killed off for the greater good of UK politics.0 -
Labour have won some big battles, and irrevocably lost others.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's going a little far. It's just that the foundations on which the Labour party were built have largely disappeared, and it has failed to evolve.kle4 said:
If that were so the party would not rebound, ever. Even the most optimistic Tory would not say that I think.JosiasJessop said:
My theory is that the important battles that faced those great men have largely been won. The country no longer has vast areas that could be from "the road to Wigan Pier". The great injustices have largely (though not wholly) gone, and what's more, Labour won many of the battles.
But nowadays we're talking about 'relative' poverty. We're talking about the state of the NHS, not the availability of universal healthcare. People have statutory holidays, and there is a minimum wage.
Now Labour's won the big battles, they have to move on to smaller items. And the public gives a heartfelt "meh!"
I think Blair recognised this, and this was part (though not all) of his thinking with 'the third way'. A move away from the party's roots towards electibility. An evolution that was sadly reversible.
With the battles won, Labour are left with redundant trade unionism and socialism. Hence Corbyn, and the difficulty in shifting him. Fifty years ago those two factors were supported by real injustices. Nowadays, whilst there are injustices about, they're generally more nebulous.
But, there must be a place for a centre left party.0 -
That is a very good question.surbiton said:
In fairness, I don't know enough about her to guess an answer.
In further fairness, Corbyn was dealt a pretty poor hand as well, and has played it with skill and sophistication - that is, the skill and sophistication of a drunken village idiot who moonlights as an officer of the Student Loan Company.0 -
Not sure what she's smoking but it's available in Aveimore !!ydoethur said:
She's still on stage - the latest snippet:
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/8565667878566297630 -
Ouch! Has any parliamentary candidate for a main party ever defected between being nominated and polling date?bobajobPB said:
Can you register candidates after parliament dissolves? The trick is to stage the rebellion after the registration date, surely?Fysics_Teacher said:
That is the nuclear option though isn't it? There would be a lot of constituencies with two 'Labour' candidates, there would be huge rows over what name they could use and May would be looking at 500+ seats.bobajobPB said:
Andy has already explained how it could be done - the dissolution of parliament means they could rebel en masse and still fight as anti Corbyn Labour. Nothing stopping them doing it.Fysics_Teacher said:
I can see that that might be the only way to do it, but there would be lawyers all over it to start with. I also get the impression that the Labour Party is even less keen on what it sees as betrayal than the Conservatives. Corbyn would hang on to the party name, funds and database and both sides would be slaughtered in the polls while May looked on slightly bemused.
It would be just like the Tory party leadership contest all over again.
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+1surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
That is old news though!0 -
Labour's firewall could not be 30%. In 2010, it got 29+% and in 1983, it received 28+ %. In both cases, Scotland was big with Labour.FrancisUrquhart said:I might have to go and have a lie down, as I agree with Nick....Lab vote seems to be stuck at 25%. Looks like that might be the bedrock for Labour support, still impressive as we always used to talk about Labour and Tory having a firewall of 30%.
So the equivalent figure would be about 26%.0 -
If Lib Dem Voice is any indication, the Lib Dems don't want to be middle of the road, and increasingly want a progressive alliance (while recognising working with Lab in particular is complicated).
Seems like we truly might as well just have two parties for each country of the UK.0 -
The comment we pre-2010, where we regularly said when Brown was polling 25-26% that still Labour brand strong enough to get 30%....and they very nearly did.surbiton said:
Labour's firewall could not be 30%. In 2010, it got 29+% and in 1983, it received 28+ %. In both cases, Scotland was big with Labour.FrancisUrquhart said:I might have to go and have a lie down, as I agree with Nick....Lab vote seems to be stuck at 25%. Looks like that might be the bedrock for Labour support, still impressive as we always used to talk about Labour and Tory having a firewall of 30%.
So the equivalent figure would be about 26%.
Seems like we are now downgrading that to 25%.0 -
Presumably because no matter whether it is proposed by a party that is red, blue or orange with pink spots, it is as Cicero pointed out a damn fool and disastrous proposal.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites0 -
May isn't proposing a freeze.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
But apart from that......0 -
I repeat, no decision made yet.Black_Rook said:
Yes, announced yesterday I believe. I wonder what the logic of that is?RobD said:Interesting, looks as though the LDs are standing against the Speaker.
Buckingham is not exactly the kind of place where one might expect the Lib Dems, starting from nothing, to score a dramatic victory. It's not even a mad-keen Remain area.0 -
It is the reason that private sector unions have declined, so I agree that JJ has a point. The Labour battle is won. It is the failure to formulate Macron style optomistic Social Democracy that will do in Jezza.HurstLlama said:
A very fair point, Mr. Jessop. Perhaps then Labour, like UKIP, is a party whose job is done. They both have nothing more relevant to say and should go into history together. Perhaps that is the message of this GE, an explanation, if you will, of what is going on.JosiasJessop said:
My theory is that the important battles that faced those great men have largely been won. The country no longer has vast areas that could be from "the road to Wigan Pier". The great injustices have largely (though not wholly) gone, and what's more, Labour won many of the battles.HurstLlama said:
A week or so back I was in DurhamCasino_Royale said:
Their pitch to the country was just as crap: vacuous Blairism-plus, ContinuityBrown and I'maScouserwhowenttoCambridgeandhasneverkissedaTory.Scott_P said:
They were pitching at the country. not the membership.Casino_Royale said:Why was it they so comprehensively failed to articulate a convincing and passionate alternative to Corbyn to their own membership back in 2015, with all the other pitches seeming so utterly insipid and hollow?
Pathetic.
You can argue that was dumb, as it cost them the leadership, but ti would have given them a chance now.
Unlike Corbyn.
The bigger mistake was not resigning the whip when he stayed after the vote of no confidence.
Where are the serious thinkers in Labour?
Are there any?
The big mistake(s) Labour have made is to take almost all their voters outside the core cities for granted, ceased to make themselves relevant in an era where There is No Money Left, maintained a total tin ear for the concept of nationhood, and relied almost exclusively on the cuts the Tories have made to do all the hard work for them.
Corbyn could fall under a bus tomorrow, and none of that would go away.
But nowadays we're talking about 'relative' poverty. We're talking about the state of the NHS, not the availability of universal healthcare. People have statutory holidays, and there is a minimum wage.
Now Labour's won the big battles, they have to move on to smaller items. And the public gives a heartfelt "meh!"0 -
SCon election literature watch.
Council election leaflet manages a new Con record of mentioning Conservatives more than the legal minimum, however Independence + Referendum beats out Conservative by 8 to 7 overall.
For referemce the SNP council leaflet mentioned independence and referendum zero times but it is apparently the SNP who are obsessed.0 -
More nebulous, isolated and petty.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's going a little far. It's just that the foundations on which the Labour party were built have largely disappeared, and it has failed to evolve.kle4 said:
If that were so the party would not rebound, ever. Even the most optimistic Tory would not say that I think.JosiasJessop said:
My theory is that the important battles that faced those great men have largely been won. The country no longer has vast areas that could be from "the road to Wigan Pier". The great injustices have largely (though not wholly) gone, and what's more, Labour won many of the battles.
But nowadays we're talking about 'relative' poverty. We're talking about the state of the NHS, not the availability of universal healthcare. People have statutory holidays, and there is a minimum wage.
Now Labour's won the big battles, they have to move on to smaller items. And the public gives a heartfelt "meh!"
I think Blair recognised this, and this was part (though not all) of his thinking with 'the third way'. A move away from the party's roots towards electibility. An evolution that was sadly reversible.
With the battles won, Labour are left with redundant trade unionism and socialism. Hence Corbyn, and the difficulty in shifting him. Fifty years ago those two factors were supported by real injustices. Nowadays, whilst there are injustices about, they're generally more nebulous.0 -
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.0 -
Just dissecting the tables for the Welsh poll. The values displayed are largely reminiscent of the GB-wide surveys, except that the crossover to the Tories as the first party occurs further up the age range, and the Conservative lead amongst the C2DE's is narrow (but it is still there.)
Other observations (with the usual caveats about small sub-sample sizes):
1. Only about a third of 2015 Ukip voters still backed the party, with almost all of the defectors intending to back the Tories (the fact that Ukip isn't lower than 6% appears to be down to small dribs and drabs crossing over from other parties, but not on a significant scale.)
2. The headline Conservative lead of 10% masks a heavy (and predictable) geographical skew. Broken down by region, Labour is ahead by 10% in Cardiff and South Central (basically, the Valleys,) but behind the Tories by anything between 12% and 22% in the other regions. Those sub-samples are small, *but* taken together they indicate a substantial Conservative advantage everywhere in the country outside of that South Central zone. This suggests that the mooted wipeout everywhere except Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli and the Valleys is very much a possibility.0 -
Will he? I will the cultists remain deluded and believe all the tosh about the campaign being undermined by Mandelson? Or have they all failed to renew their membership fees?justin124 said:
It won't be his decision. He will be challenged - and trounced.bobajobPB said:
'What do they do if Corbyn refuses to go after the election?'Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jim, yet entirely predictable.
What do they do if Corbyn refuses to go after the election?
Mr. Rabbit, or, to paraphrase Murray Walked - there's nothing wrong with the Labour Party, except that it's on fire.
.... I hope after the election they either finally get rid of Corbyn or just split. The country needs an opposition.
This is the key question. Can we get a thread on this from a Labour insider?0 -
Are you sure Torby is not Tory ?Torby_Fennel said:If the polls are anything close to correct then this is shaping up to be the most fascinating election to be held during my lifetime.
Even as a Lib Dem (albeit one who used to vote Conservative at all previous general elections until the EU referendum showed me that I'm more "yellow" than "blue") I don't find it at all difficult to understand Theresa May's popularity. I'll readily concede that I find her to be the most likeable of the party leaders by some distance. I don't even feel particularly uncomfortable with the idea of a Conservative landslide or super-landslide in the present circumstances... though obviously I would very much prefer very substantial Lib Dem progress. The main thing is that Corbyn's Labour needs to be politically killed off for the greater good of UK politics.0 -
I thought we were all PB Tories now?kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
But leaving that aside, I'd need a great deal of persuasion that this policy was a good one. It doesn't seem quite as stupid as Ed's initial offering, but that view could easily change.
The energy market is borken in many ways. This does not seem to be addressing the correct issues.0 -
The candidate seems to think otherwise:MrsB said:
I repeat, no decision made yet.Black_Rook said:
Yes, announced yesterday I believe. I wonder what the logic of that is?RobD said:Interesting, looks as though the LDs are standing against the Speaker.
Buckingham is not exactly the kind of place where one might expect the Lib Dems, starting from nothing, to score a dramatic victory. It's not even a mad-keen Remain area.
https://twitter.com/SarahLowesLD/status/8562204721109729300 -
It essentially amounts to the same thing. Continue your pointless spinning if you like...CarlottaVance said:
May isn't proposing a freeze.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
But apart from that......0 -
What can she do realistically?surbiton said:
You either commit to it fully, and say "let's rally behind Jez and kick the Tories out! SNP votes can't do that! Only we can form a Government!" or you do what some Labour MPs are doing and say, "we won't win, but vote for us anyway to allow us to regroup in the Autumn under a new leader and form an opposition with more than about 150 seats".
I don't see the latter approach being effective as people don't distinguish. When the Tories were routed in 1997, or the Lib Dems in 2015, it didn't matter a damn if the candidate said "I was a rebel so not really responsible". Realistically, the choice is hanging together or hanging separately.
That said, an MP who has opposed Corbyn vocally may just feel incapable of spouting the former line with any conviction. The latter approach has the advantage of honesty even if it's doomed.0 -
Perhaps the SNP dare not mention it?Alistair said:SCon election literature watch.
Council election leaflet manages a new Con record of mentioning Conservatives more than the legal minimum, however Independence + Referendum beats out Conservative by 8 to 7 overall.
For referemce the SNP council leaflet mentioned independence and referendum zero times but it is apparently the SNP who are obsessed.
0 -
Errr, wasn't Sturgeon leading the SNP when the brave defenders of the Union got their worst ever vote share?Scott_P said:0 -
They were spontaneously talking about it on the train, so presumably more motivated than most!FrancisUrquhart said:
#2 - Chances they actually get registered and don't forget / oversleep / can be arsed to get to the polling station....very low.foxinsoxuk said:
Fox's anecdata:NickPalmer said:It's interesting that all the polls are showing that Labour's vote is fairly stable at a low level (26ish): there isn't a panicky flight from Corbyn. What's happening is that UKIP's vote (some of it former Labour) is going Tory. The poll published earlier this week showing that the Tory score has actually declined in Tory seats while increasing in strong Labour seats is a good illustration. That's as the Tories would want it, in terms of winning seats, though it may not be altogether healthy in the medium term if they can't meet the aspirations of their former Kipper friends.
1) Romsey Constituency, visiting grandpa Fox: Orange diamonds and blue posters sighted in equal (low!) numbers.
2) Overheard train conversation of bunch of students heading London to Leeds. Not v keen on Corbyn, but voting Labour anyway.
3) Naturalised Greek voting LD in Harborough, his British wife voting Labour.0 -
1997 was bad for the Tories in terms of seats but their vote share was 31.4% in GB. Labour would be happy to get that sort of percentage this time. In fact it's 0.2 points higher than Ed got in 2015.dr_spyn said:Every day I look at the @newdawn1997 Tweets - a cut and paste job for today's headline writers re 2017. Looks as if Worcester Women & Mondeo Men are no longer voting Labour.
1997 was bad for The Tories, it took them 5 General Elections to get a majority, and even then Cameron contrived to screw things up by that Referendum.
It could be a long way back for Labour.0 -
It is the fault of Harriet Harman.Casino_Royale said:This might not be a popular point of view, but I'd argue this is just as much the fault of the Labour moderates as it is of Corbyn, who's a symptom, not a cause. And why Labour wouldn't recover much even if they ditched him right now.
Why was it they so comprehensively failed to articulate a convincing and passionate alternative to Corbyn to their own membership back in 2015, with all the other pitches seeming so utterly insipid and hollow?
Pathetic.0 -
Not Carlotta and Fitalass. But then again, CCHQ dictates...........kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites0 -
Slowpokes!AndyJS said:
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.0 -
Not sure if Kezia Dugdale is tilting at windmills or just having her last rant. She's in for a rude awakening, come June 10th and probably out on her ear.calum said:
Not sure what she's smoking but it's available in Aveimore !!ydoethur said:
She's still on stage - the latest snippet:
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/8565667878566297630 -
It is, our democracy only works when we have a functioning opposition.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am cautious and not counting chickens. However the decapitation of Corbyn and labour is needed to open the way to a new social democratic party.CommanderShepard said:TheScreamingEagles said:To my fellow blues, calm down, a single vote has yet to be cast.
You don't want to become the IOS de nos jours
I agree with TSE. Hubris can still bite the Tories and Hubris is just a step away from being the nasty party again.TheScreamingEagles said:To my fellow blues, calm down, a single vote has yet to be cast.
You don't want to become the IOS de nos jours
0 -
0
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Even PB Tories are not a homogenous mass.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
0 -
Turnout in 1992 was nearly 80% too. The slow down in result rate is staggering.AndyJS said:
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.0 -
I have to agree with other posters, this is tectonic plate shifting moment stuff, there is some major re alignment going on, it is not a Maygasm,yes Corbyn is crap, but the change is much more than that, beginning to think that it is becoming increasingly unpopular to associate yourself with the Labour brand.
Start of the Shy Labour vote?0 -
I was a PB Tory for a couple of days!kle4 said:
Even PB Tories are not a homogenous mass.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
A subset of the PB Tories are the PB Burleys. Those are truly nasty folk!0 -
There is no firewall (rock bottom) percentage. SLAB have proven that, why should England or Wales be different?surbiton said:
Labour's firewall could not be 30%. In 2010, it got 29+% and in 1983, it received 28+ %. In both cases, Scotland was big with Labour.FrancisUrquhart said:I might have to go and have a lie down, as I agree with Nick....Lab vote seems to be stuck at 25%. Looks like that might be the bedrock for Labour support, still impressive as we always used to talk about Labour and Tory having a firewall of 30%.
So the equivalent figure would be about 26%.0 -
One of the funniest lines of all time.calum said:0 -
Haha, next PM I'm splitting my sides.calum said:0 -
I haven't commented on the merits as the details are unknown - but I have described it as possibly good politics but iffy policy.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass. But then again, CCHQ dictates...........kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
But then when have you been remotely interested in the truth?0 -
A dark time, to be sure - everyone's drawn in at some point, but it is possible to escape, never fear.murali_s said:
I was a PB Tory for a couple of days!kle4 said:
Even PB Tories are not a homogenous mass.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
My strategy is to feed them chum every now and then to avoid being eaten.0 -
Cuts, damn cuts !AndyJS said:
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.0 -
1992 was the last time local election votes didn't have to be separated out from the general election ballots. That will be the case this year as well, so it should be faster.ToryJim said:
Turnout in 1992 was nearly 80% too. The slow down in result rate is staggering.AndyJS said:
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.0 -
So much for Labour's retire anywhere you want pledge of last week - it appears to now exclude sunny Scotland !!
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/8565707447293706240 -
It's tough in here though - the PB Tories hunt in packs!kle4 said:
A dark time, to be sure - everyone's drawn in at some point, but it is possible to escape, never fear.murali_s said:
I was a PB Tory for a couple of days!kle4 said:
Even PB Tories are not a homogenous mass.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
My strategy is to feed them chum every now and then to avoid being eaten.0 -
Has Fitalass even been on? ...surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass. But then again, CCHQ dictates...........kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites0 -
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Simultaneous localssurbiton said:
Cuts, damn cuts !AndyJS said:
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.0 -
This was a Brown line. Surprised Corbyn is quoting that old scottish Blairite scum running dog.calum said:So much for Labour's retire anywhere you want pledge of last week - it appears to now exclude sunny Scotland !!
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/8565707447293706240 -
Words fail.....
The National Union of Students (NUS) is embroiled in a fresh anti-Semitism row after three candidates holding or running for positions on its executive committee were revealed to have made offensive comments.
In online posts seen by The Independent, one current member of the union’s National Executive Council shared a video mocking Jews as having big noses and being tight with money, while another publicly suggested Jewish people are tight-fisted and said he wanted to destroy Israel.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/nus-anti-semitism-national-union-students-offensive-tweets-jews-racism-adolf-hitler-israel-executive-a7696566.html0 -
I remember when PBTories were the ones being hunted ...murali_s said:
It's tough in here though - the PB Tories hunt in packs!kle4 said:
A dark time, to be sure - everyone's drawn in at some point, but it is possible to escape, never fear.murali_s said:
I was a PB Tory for a couple of days!kle4 said:
Even PB Tories are not a homogenous mass.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
My strategy is to feed them chum every now and then to avoid being eaten.0 -
@surbiton You don't have to be a Tory to believe that Corbynism needs to die as a force in British politics. Corbyn is essentially the reason as to why this country effectively as no opposition right now.0
-
I seem to remember somebody introduced a former Labour leader like that.ToryJim said:
Haha, next PM I'm splitting my sides.calum said:
The place was Sheffield.
The date was (appropriately) April 1st 1992.
The Labour leader was a bloke called Neil Kinnock, who won the election and went on to be a great Prime Mini...ahhh.
Hubris among the Tories looks bad. Hubris for Labour makes me wonder whether my earlier sarcastic comment on hallucinogenic substances was actually correct.-1 -
surbiton said:
Cuts, damn cuts !AndyJS said:
1992: 385 results by 2am, 570 by 3am.AndyJS said:
My 1992 election running totals spreadsheet:dr_spyn said:Labour conceding defeat might be at earlier this time round.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/856559822644404228
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10JXFr2nEi6_H_CXvdvrpezS7Rfv6UwzLMrHZcsrsxMI/edit#gid=0
2015: 17 results by 2am, 72 by 3am.
Results that early will lead to a foreshortening of the fun this side of the Atlantic. Done and dusted by 10pm? Boring!0 -
How about, "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government"ydoethur said:
I seem to remember somebody introduced a former Labour leader like that.ToryJim said:
Haha, next PM I'm splitting my sides.calum said:
The place was Sheffield.
The date was (appropriately) April 1st 1992.
The Labour leader was a bloke called Neil Kinnock, who won the election and went on to be a great Prime Mini...ahhh.
Hubris among the Tories looks bad. Hubris for Labour makes me wonder whether my earlier sarcastic comment on hallucinogenic substances was actually correct.0 -
Wouldn't you?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:
Its universities have been trashed.
Its economy is weak and erratic, heavily reliant on a government that is notoriously weak and corrupt. In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population.
It is remote and outside Cardiff a cultural wilderness. Transport links are atrocious and the roads are very dangerous.
It is not cheap to live in. Good houses are snapped up as second homes and bad ones are - well, bad.
Why do you think I live in Cannock?0 -
But who remembers Burley these days? A relic of a past so distant, it was before Labour acquired exclusive rights to the anti-Semitism franchise.murali_s said:
I was a PB Tory for a couple of days!kle4 said:
Even PB Tories are not a homogenous mass.surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass.kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
A subset of the PB Tories are the PB Burleys. Those are truly nasty folk!0 -
That was just funny.jayfdee said:
How about, "Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government"ydoethur said:
I seem to remember somebody introduced a former Labour leader like that.ToryJim said:
Haha, next PM I'm splitting my sides.calum said:
The place was Sheffield.
The date was (appropriately) April 1st 1992.
The Labour leader was a bloke called Neil Kinnock, who won the election and went on to be a great Prime Mini...ahhh.
Hubris among the Tories looks bad. Hubris for Labour makes me wonder whether my earlier sarcastic comment on hallucinogenic substances was actually correct.0 -
It's a very American thing for the hosts of political campaign stops to introduce the candidate by the title being sought. "The next Senator for the great state of [fill in the blank]", "the next President of the United States".ydoethur said:
I seem to remember somebody introduced a former Labour leader like that.ToryJim said:
Haha, next PM I'm splitting my sides.calum said:
The place was Sheffield.
The date was (appropriately) April 1st 1992.
The Labour leader was a bloke called Neil Kinnock, who won the election and went on to be a great Prime Mini...ahhh.
Hubris among the Tories looks bad. Hubris for Labour makes me wonder whether my earlier sarcastic comment on hallucinogenic substances was actually correct.0 -
Very sure now, yes. It took me a long time to work it out though, in fairness.surbiton said:
Are you sure Torby is not Tory ?
The change began for me, to my surprise, during the Coalition government when I started to realise that I liked the Lib Dem parts of that program better than the Conservative parts whilst still, to this day, retaining my life-long hostility to Labour. The EU referendum made it starkly clear which side I belong on.
0 -
Its interesting that neither the LibDems or PC are making progress in Wales.
In fact the LibDems must be concerned that they're not making progress nationally.
They would have been looking for big gains in the local elections to give them momentum.
0 -
Which begs the question why has trade unionism clung on so well in the public sector? Is it that public sector employers are so awful?foxinsoxuk said:
It is the reason that private sector unions have declined, so I agree that JJ has a point. The Labour battle is won. It is the failure to formulate Macron style optomistic Social Democracy that will do in Jezza.HurstLlama said:
A very fair point, Mr. Jessop. Perhaps then Labour, like UKIP, is a party whose job is done. They both have nothing more relevant to say and should go into history together. Perhaps that is the message of this GE, an explanation, if you will, of what is going on.JosiasJessop said:
My theory is that the important battles that faced those great men have largely been won. The country no longer has vast areas that could be from "the road to Wigan Pier". The great injustices have largely (though not wholly) gone, and what's more, Labour won many of the battles.HurstLlama said:
A week or so back I was in DurhamCasino_Royale said:
Their pitch to the country was just as crap: vacuous Blairism-plus, ContinuityBrown and I'maScouserwhowenttoCambridgeandhasneverkissedaTory.Scott_P said:
They were pitching at the country. not the membership.Casino_Royale said:Why was it they so comprehensively failed to articulate a convincing and passionate alternative to Corbyn to their own membership back in 2015, with all the other pitches seeming so utterly insipid and hollow?
Pathetic.
You can argue that was dumb, as it cost them the leadership, but ti would have given them a chance now.
Unlike Corbyn.
The bigger mistake was not resigning the whip when he stayed after the vote of no confidence.
Where are the serious thinkers in Labour?
Are there any?
The big mistake(s) Labour have made is to take almost all their voters outside the core cities for granted, ceased to make themselves relevant in an era where There is No Money Left, maintained a total tin ear for the concept of nationhood, and relied almost exclusively on the cuts the Tories have made to do all the hard work for them.
Corbyn could fall under a bus tomorrow, and none of that would go away.
But nowadays we're talking about 'relative' poverty. We're talking about the state of the NHS, not the availability of universal healthcare. People have statutory holidays, and there is a minimum wage.
Now Labour's won the big battles, they have to move on to smaller items. And the public gives a heartfelt "meh!"0 -
You and your facts. Pack it in.RobD said:
Has Fitalass even been on? ...surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass. But then again, CCHQ dictates...........kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites0 -
Do Plaid stand a chance in Llanelli? Nia Griffith wasn't very impressive on DP today (partly because she is in an impossible position tbf) and I see Plaid consistently run her second in the seat. Scope for anti-Labour tactical voting?ydoethur said:
Wouldn't you?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:
Its universities have been trashed.
Its economy is weak and erratic, heavily reliant on a government that is notoriously weak and corrupt. In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population.
It is remote and outside Cardiff a cultural wilderness. Transport links are atrocious and the roads are very dangerous.
It is not cheap to live in. Good houses are snapped up as second homes and bad ones are - well, bad.
Why do you think I live in Cannock?0 -
Getting the support of the Communist Party is, I suspect, not going to do Labour much good either.
0 -
Or the old are moving to Wales in droves, and being old they don't produce any new kids of their own?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Typical smears from our surbitonsaddened said:
You and your facts. Pack it in.RobD said:
Has Fitalass even been on? ...surbiton said:
Not Carlotta and Fitalass. But then again, CCHQ dictates...........kle4 said:
Several PB Tories have acted with hostility to the proposal.surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites
0 -
Please, all you experts on French customs/language - why is Emmanuel Macron the only gentleman whose name is not preceded by M (= Monsieur, presumably)?williamglenn said:Macron finishes above 24%
https://twitter.com/lemondefr/status/8565619271700070410 -
I think Corbin's finished speaking - his parting shot:
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/8565723051698954240 -
The NUS is like the Augean Stables, in need of a really good clean.CarlottaVance said:Words fail.....
The National Union of Students (NUS) is embroiled in a fresh anti-Semitism row after three candidates holding or running for positions on its executive committee were revealed to have made offensive comments.
In online posts seen by The Independent, one current member of the union’s National Executive Council shared a video mocking Jews as having big noses and being tight with money, while another publicly suggested Jewish people are tight-fisted and said he wanted to destroy Israel.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/nus-anti-semitism-national-union-students-offensive-tweets-jews-racism-adolf-hitler-israel-executive-a7696566.html0 -
CarlottaVance said:
The National Union of Students (NUS) is embroiled in a fresh anti-Semitism row after three candidates holding or running for positions on its executive committee were revealed to have made offensive comments.
In online posts seen by The Independent, one current member of the union’s National Executive Council shared a video mocking Jews as having big noses and being tight with money, while another publicly suggested Jewish people are tight-fisted and said he wanted to destroy Israel.
The NUS has always been nothing more than a training platform for wannabe Labour pols. Sounds like they'd fit right in with Corbyn's party.0 -
Be serious. Could anyone with a functioning brain vote for Nuttall?
Talking of which Corbyn is in danger of exchanging tragic hero status for laughing stock. Not wearing a tie or bowing and scraping at the sight of the flag for a moment looked like a man of principle.
So why the sudden recognition of Saints days? What's wrong with a Mandela day or a Fidel day or a Pol pot day? He's done a faustus and sold his soul to the devil.
0 -
Depends a bit on who the Plaid candidate is. If Helen Mary Jones can be persuaded to stand I would make them favourites. If not, still advantage Labour.IanB2 said:
Do Plaid stand a chance in Llanelli? Nia Griffith wasn't very impressive on DP today (partly because she is in an impossible position tbf) and I see Plaid consistently run her second in the seat. Scope for anti-Labour tactical voting?ydoethur said:
Wouldn't you?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:
Its universities have been trashed.
Its economy is weak and erratic, heavily reliant on a government that is notoriously weak and corrupt. In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population.
It is remote and outside Cardiff a cultural wilderness. Transport links are atrocious and the roads are very dangerous.
It is not cheap to live in. Good houses are snapped up as second homes and bad ones are - well, bad.
Why do you think I live in Cannock?
That said, I would expect Llanelli to go green before Ynys Mon goes blue.0 -
hell of a poll. Been in a pub in cornwall. Not sure the locals there know that there is a general election.0
-
@Election_Data
This is a key part to understanding Wales's political geography in particular. Older populations are booming and taking a greater share of the electorate. They turnout in high numbers (70-odd per cent) and are moving away from Labour. Younger populations are declining or flatlining and taking a smaller share of the electorate. These younger voters don't vote (40%-ish) The net effect is an electorate which is older and older. These changes have happened quickly (post-2005). At the same time the older voters have moved away from Labour (35% in 2005 down to 21% today). So the fastest growing [older] groups, occupying higher proportions of the electorate, are having a disproportionate impact upon elections in Wales. We have seen this in Brexit of course and also now with their recent move to the Conservatives. In short, how these older voters move determines a large part of how Welsh elections move. And this will only get worse. Older populations are projected to continue to grow as a proportion well in the 2020s and perhaps beyond in Wales. All parties will have to make peace with that.
0 -
This message brought to you by the Welsh Investment Board ;-)ydoethur said:
Wouldn't you?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:
Its universities have been trashed.
Its economy is weak and erratic, heavily reliant on a government that is notoriously weak and corrupt. In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population.
It is remote and outside Cardiff a cultural wilderness. Transport links are atrocious and the roads are very dangerous.
It is not cheap to live in. Good houses are snapped up as second homes and bad ones are - well, bad.
Why do you think I live in Cannock?
As well as a lot of investment in Cardiff, hasn't Swansea has had a fair bit of redevelopment?0 -
True. Tectonic plates are moving.foxinsoxuk said:
There is no firewall (rock bottom) percentage. SLAB have proven that, why should England or Wales be different?surbiton said:
Labour's firewall could not be 30%. In 2010, it got 29+% and in 1983, it received 28+ %. In both cases, Scotland was big with Labour.FrancisUrquhart said:I might have to go and have a lie down, as I agree with Nick....Lab vote seems to be stuck at 25%. Looks like that might be the bedrock for Labour support, still impressive as we always used to talk about Labour and Tory having a firewall of 30%.
So the equivalent figure would be about 26%.
Labour represented the "working class". Their numbers have fallen dramatically and some do not even want to described as such. That is fair enough.
However, in that coalition, there was a large scale opinion which did not go well with Labour's professed values regarding internationalism, anti-racism etc. These two strands co-existed for many years because many at the bottom of the income scale needed Labour even though they did not agree with Labour's intellectual viewpoint. Many , of course, will stay with Labour but many have gone.
We must not forget, Labour also gained many [ though not as many ] progressive voters.
The shift from Labour to UKIP but not back to Labour is part of this tectonic movement. In the next few years another development will occur. Many "wet" Tories [ Remainers ? ] will move over to the Lib Dems and many left minded Liberal Democrats will move to a more modern Labour Party without its historical baggage, the kind of slogans Corbynistas spout out.
The question is: Is there room for two/ three parties [ Labour mark II, Lid Dems, Green ] ? Because we do not have proportional representation, we could end up like the Americans in having just two parties. Even the WWC defection to Trump could be permanent. There, the democratic coalition is still the majority as Hillary's 3m extra votes testify.
Interesting times ahead.0 -
Being shacked up with Labour in the assembly isn't the best of positions right now, to be fair. The influx of pensioners and outflow of educated young people does the LibDems no favours given the demographics of their support. And those whose fathers knew Lloyd George are dying off.another_richard said:Its interesting that neither the LibDems or PC are making progress in Wales.
In fact the LibDems must be concerned that they're not making progress nationally.
They would have been looking for big gains in the local elections to give them momentum.0 -
Wonder what the demographic forecasts for Scotland are?CarlottaVance said:. Older populations are projected to continue to grow as a proportion well in the 2020s and perhaps beyond in Wales. All parties will have to make peace with that.
0 -
Whatever the circumstances, the Labour line never changes, does it? I heard virtually the same from a Labour candidate for the first PCC election.calum said:0 -
"In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population."ydoethur said:
Wouldn't you?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:
Its universities have been trashed.
Its economy is weak and erratic, heavily reliant on a government that is notoriously weak and corrupt. In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population.
It is remote and outside Cardiff a cultural wilderness. Transport links are atrocious and the roads are very dangerous.
It is not cheap to live in. Good houses are snapped up as second homes and bad ones are - well, bad.
Why do you think I live in Cannock?
That is just utter claptrap! I have family in Wales who speak no Welsh and yet work in the public sector!0 -
You obviously missed the lady from Swindon's reaction to the suggestion of Corbyn being PM.Roger said:Be serious. Could anyone with a functioning brain vote for Nuttall?
Talking of which Corbyn is in danger of exchanging tragic hero status for laughing stock. Not wearing a tie or bowing and scraping at the sight of the flag for a moment looked like a man of principle.
So why the sudden recognition of Saints days? What's wrong with a Mandela day or a Fidel day or a Pol pot day? He's done a faustus and sold his soul to the devil.0 -
The problem is not with all the PB Tories it is with certain ones of them who appear to have no minds of their own and slavishly agree with the policy of the day. Carlotta claims to be in her sixties and Oxbridge educated. She should know better!!surbiton said:
As I wrote the other day:CarlottaVance said:
So the Tories improved Miliband's initially poor idea and made it into a better less worse one!SouthamObserver said:
Nice try :-DCarlottaVance said:
Nice try SO - but no cigar:SouthamObserver said:
Nope - the 2015 Labour manifesto said this:CarlottaVance said:
No. Ed said he would 'freeze' energy prices - meaning in the event of a fall (which duly happened) consumers would be left paying higher prices.kle4 said:
Only that Ed Miliband got there first.Gallowgate said:https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/856553714915717126
Anyone know the detail behind this yet?
A 'cap' is different.
Need to see details - it may be good politics but iffy policy.
"Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not
rise, and we will give the regulator the power to cut bills this winter. During
the freeze, we will reform the energy market so that it delivers fairer prices
and a better deal for working families."
Labour would freeze gas and electricity bills for every home and business in the UK for 20 months if it wins the 2015 election, Ed Miliband has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-24213366
In 2013 at the Labour Conference
Miliband’s eye-catching pledge came a few months before wholesale energy prices began a two-year slide, rendering the idea irrelevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/23/energy-prices-tory-cap-miliband-freeze
It's in the manifesto. In black and white: ""Labour will freeze energy bills until 2017, ensuring that bills can fall but not rise." It's precisely what May is proposing.
Miliband proposes freeze = Bad May proposes freeze = good
PB Tories = PB Hypocrites0 -
Or issues that are more difficult to tackle. FGM, for instance.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's going a little far. It's just that the foundations on which the Labour party were built have largely disappeared, and it has failed to evolve.kle4 said:
If that were so the party would not rebound, ever. Even the most optimistic Tory would not say that I think.JosiasJessop said:
My theory is that the important battles that faced those great men have largely been won. The country no longer has vast areas that could be from "the road to Wigan Pier". The great injustices have largely (though not wholly) gone, and what's more, Labour won many of the battles.
But nowadays we're talking about 'relative' poverty. We're talking about the state of the NHS, not the availability of universal healthcare. People have statutory holidays, and there is a minimum wage.
Now Labour's won the big battles, they have to move on to smaller items. And the public gives a heartfelt "meh!"
I think Blair recognised this, and this was part (though not all) of his thinking with 'the third way'. A move away from the party's roots towards electibility. An evolution that was sadly reversible.
With the battles won, Labour are left with redundant trade unionism and socialism. Hence Corbyn, and the difficulty in shifting him. Fifty years ago those two factors were supported by real injustices. Nowadays, whilst there are injustices about, they're generally more nebulous.0 -
Labour need a female leader next.
I'm sorry to make such a shallow, sexist point but a big part of May's electoral bounce is down to her being a woman.
I don't care what anyone says. It matters hugely.0 -
Plaid response to Welsh poll
This poll is a glimpse of a future which could await Wales. If the Tories do win on theses numbers, the future of our nation is at risk.
No one should forget that Tory ideology is all about privatising and cutting public services. That means longer waiting lists, poorer education and increased child poverty. We know what they are about because we remember the Tories’ record in Wales.
With an increased mandate the Tories will privatise, cut and power-grab from our assembly so that Wales’s ability to defend its own people will be reduced.
0 -
FWIW, from door-knocking so far, trying hard not to have my Optimism Goggles on, the polls seem pretty accurate - we've been focussing just on 2015 Lab voters, and even with them it's been pretty dire. I'd expect the poll results to be borne out in a few weeks, broadly speaking. But I don't get the sense this is a permanent shift - people view May as the right person to lead Britain "into war" with other EU countries, but, a bit surprisingly to me, they don't really seem to be buying this stuff about May wanting "a country that works for everyone". Whenever we say on the doorsteps things like how she doesn't give a damn about public services or ordinary people, people readily agree with us (and a few people yesterday mentioned they didn't believe she'd ever deliver the energy price thing), but they just think stuff like that is small-beer compared to getting a good Brexit deal.jayfdee said:I have to agree with other posters, this is tectonic plate shifting moment stuff, there is some major re alignment going on, it is not a Maygasm,yes Corbyn is crap, but the change is much more than that, beginning to think that it is becoming increasingly unpopular to associate yourself with the Labour brand.
Start of the Shy Labour vote?
All of that will be small comfort to Labour in the short term, obviously, because unless something dramatic happens, the feeling of "she's the right person to negotiate Brexit" will still be there in a few weeks, but I honestly don't think her appeal (or the Tories' appeal) is going to extend into "peacetime" once Brexit is finally done and dusted.0 -
He's still a boy?AnneJGP said:
Please, all you experts on French customs/language - why is Emmanuel Macron the only gentleman whose name is not preceded by M (= Monsieur, presumably)?williamglenn said:Macron finishes above 24%
https://twitter.com/lemondefr/status/8565619271700070410 -
I think a big part of it is that she isn't Corbyn. Suspect a man would be doing just as well against him.Fenster said:Labour need a female leader next.
I'm sorry to make such a shallow, sexist point but a big part of May's electoral bounce is down to her being a woman.
I don't care what anyone says. It matters hugely.0 -
Yes, it's now bad rather than atrocious.FrancisUrquhart said:
This message brought to you by the Welsh Investment Board ;-)ydoethur said:
Wouldn't you?foxinsoxuk said:
That accounts for a lot, but is also very depressing. The young of Wales must be leaving in droves.CarlottaVance said:
Its universities have been trashed.
Its economy is weak and erratic, heavily reliant on a government that is notoriously weak and corrupt. In any case, no public sector jobs are open to non-Welsh speakers who are in fact the majority of the population.
It is remote and outside Cardiff a cultural wilderness. Transport links are atrocious and the roads are very dangerous.
It is not cheap to live in. Good houses are snapped up as second homes and bad ones are - well, bad.
Why do you think I live in Cannock?
As well as a lot of investment in Cardiff, hasn't Swansea has had a fair bit of redevelopment?
I am Welsh. My mother was from the Valleys and my father from Oswestry. I speak Welsh. I love Wales with a passion and a fervour. Even when in England, I commuted to work in Wales for as long as I could. But it is increasingly a place where people go to die rather than live. Jobs are needed. Infrastructure is needed for the jobs to come. The universities need strengthening so our brightest and best don't go to England and stay there (like I did for my final degree) rather than being brutally attacked because they dared to tell Andrews he was a lazy little tosser with the intellect of a very stupid donkey who got there because he sucked up to the right dodgy morons.
It's incredibly sad. The first stage in the recovery has to be a change to government. Labour have been in power far, far too long. This poll would give me some hope if I believed the Sennedd Tories were any better.0 -
There's no rule that any given number of parties can thrive under FPTnP. But only parties that have a geographically concentrated support base can do so. Labour's concentration in the mining and industrial heartlands made its replacing the Liberals so much easier. Any party with an even (-ish) spread of support cannot flourish until they get well into the 40%s share of the vote.surbiton said:
True. Tectonic plates are moving.foxinsoxuk said:
There is no firewall (rock bottom) percentage. SLAB have proven that, why should England or Wales be different?surbiton said:
Labour's firewall could not be 30%. In 2010, it got 29+% and in 1983, it received 28+ %. In both cases, Scotland was big with Labour.FrancisUrquhart said:I might have to go and have a lie down, as I agree with Nick....Lab vote seems to be stuck at 25%. Looks like that might be the bedrock for Labour support, still impressive as we always used to talk about Labour and Tory having a firewall of 30%.
So the equivalent figure would be about 26%.
Labour represented the "working class". Their numbers have fallen dramatically and some do not even want to described as such. That is fair enough.
However, in that coalition, there was a large scale opinion which did not go well with Labour's professed values regarding internationalism, anti-racism etc. These two strands co-existed for many years because many at the bottom of the income scale needed Labour even though they did not agree with Labour's intellectual viewpoint. Many , of course, will stay with Labour but many have gone.
We must not forget, Labour also gained many [ though not as many ] progressive voters.
The shift from Labour to UKIP but not back to Labour is part of this tectonic movement. In the next few years another development will occur. Many "wet" Tories [ Remainers ? ] will move over to the Lib Dems and many left minded Liberal Democrats will move to a more modern Labour Party without its historical baggage, the kind of slogans Corbynistas spout out.
The question is: Is there room for two/ three parties [ Labour mark II, Lid Dems, Green ] ? Because we do not have proportional representation, we could end up like the Americans in having just two parties. Even the WWC defection to Trump could be permanent. There, the democratic coalition is still the majority as Hillary's 3m extra votes testify.
Interesting times ahead.
So in your scenario it would require a massive shift in London's voting habits such that the three parties appealed, respectively, to the Home Counties/Shires, London and the universities, and the poorer urban North. Or something similar.0 -
Norfolk
Yes. Exactly. That is precisely what they should do.0 -
Well for the Tories, it definitely has killed Tory woman problem under Cameron (if that was a real thing or not, hard to tell).Fenster said:Labour need a female leader next.
I'm sorry to make such a shallow, sexist point but a big part of May's electoral bounce is down to her being a woman.
I don't care what anyone says. It matters hugely.0 -
Always found that sort of line very strange. When the people back the establishment (which still includes Labour, Jeremy, but let's pretend it doesn't), the line that the people are against the establishment continues.calum said:I think Corbin's finished speaking - his parting shot:
https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/856572305169895424
0 -
It may take a little while for the implications of Labour's predicament to sink in... I think we will see some significant volatility in the polls, but the Lib Dem air war is already better than Labour. So it's still too soon to tell, as I expect M. Macron could tell you.another_richard said:Its interesting that neither the LibDems or PC are making progress in Wales.
In fact the LibDems must be concerned that they're not making progress nationally.
They would have been looking for big gains in the local elections to give them momentum.0
This discussion has been closed.