@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
LOL. Another metropolitan journo who doesn't understand why the people voted as they did. Hint: get out of your London bubble and go and ask them.
Nick Cohen and Dan Hodges have both surprised me. They've been so sensible about Labour's failings and loss of their core voters - and then they've gone OTT over the EU of all things.
It's quite bizarre. The very people they felt were ignored by the likes of EdM and Corbyn are now all supposed to hug a Party who wants unlimited EU immigration. I honestly have no idea what makes them tick here.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
LOL. Another metropolitan journo who doesn't understand why the people voted as they did. Hint: get out of your London bubble and go and ask them.
Another Sour Grape.
I'm sure I'd have felt bitter after the 1945 election. I know I felt bitter after the 1997 and 2001 elections. But, you just have to accept that sometimes you lose.
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
Blairite is a meaningless term of abuse. Labour needs a leader like John Smith IMO. Solid as a rock, an obvious viable Pm, fiercely bright and a good communicator.
"Blairite" is not a meaningless term of abuse, when we just got Blairism tested at the ballot box a few days ago. I know you don't agree with this, but to me it seems obvious that the "Remain" message took all of the Blairites' key themes: economic conservatism and defending the status quo, being pro-immigration, being "internationalist". And that's no surprise, since a lot of today's Blairites were among the people who designed the "Britain Stronger in Europe" strategy (Chuka Umunna, Liz Kendall and Emma Reynolds were some of the key strategists). It self-evidently did not work in winning votes, so why would it work any better if that became the Labour Party's strategy?
Sure, we all want a John Smith figure. Someone who was a good communicator and an obvious PM, and who had great political judgement. But I don't see one, or anyone close, in the current crop of Labour MPs: again, the very fact most of the PLP were enthusiastically backing the Remain campaign precisely shows how bad their political judgement is, because they backed a cause which was toxically unpopular in the Labour heartlands. If they had the political judgement of a John Smith or a 1990s Tony Blair, they would've seen in advance how unpopular the EU was with the voters.
There was a Labour Leave spokesman who looked promising. Some videos were posted on here, young plump chap.
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
Conversation in the Co Op 20 minutes ago: I din't think this would happen, voted Leave to give Cameron a shock, dont think we should actually leave!!! Me too, yes. On such folk and decisions history is made. Perhaps Parliament should have a good look at this.
Good heavens. Boris and Jezza shop at your local Co-op!!
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
Yawn. We know all that. Let's get back to the Brexit mayhem!
Top Leave candidates: Johnson, Leadsom, Gove, Leadsom, Patel, Leadsom, Villiers?
I've really warmed to Villiers.
...But your first choice is Andrea Leadsom. I understand completely.
There's real talent that's risen to the top as a result of the campaign. I'm absolutely 100% against promotion based on ovaries. Leadsom and Villiers have impressed me. Leadsom in a CoE lite role would suit me. And something big for Villiers.
I've always rather liked May because she's rather no nonsense and steely, but she's been too political over playing Leave/Remain/Leave. I can't trust her. Shame really - but she did it to herself.
I'm always baffled by the concept of Ms May as a leadership candidate. I see her name in the various polls, but I just can't see her appeal.
And in the current climate, she is again, a Remain supporter. So a non-starter.
Well, she won the referendum for REMAIN by keeping control of immigration as Home Secretary. oh
Conversation in the Co Op 20 minutes ago: I din't think this would happen, voted Leave to give Cameron a shock, dont think we should actually leave!!! Me too, yes. On such folk and decisions history is made. Perhaps Parliament should have a good look at this.
The current history of the United Kingdom was arguably written on the 3rd of May 2007.
Kenny Gibson won Cunninghame North with a majority of 48 votes. Over 1,000 ballots were rejected. That gave the SNP a minority of 1 seat at Holyrood and let them claim victory in the election. As a result of the incompetence of the other parties, the SNP were allowed to govern. They should not have been.
As a result of that, the SNP demonstrated competence. In 2011 they won an almost impossible majority. This led to the Scottish Referendum of 2014, the wipe out of Scottish Labour in 2015 and the Tory Majority in Westminster in part, at least, based on concern about the SNP having a say in Westminster politics.
Without that Majority for the Tories there would be no EU Ref, there would not be a second Scottish Ref, the UK would not be broken up. There would not be a worldwide impact of current events in the UK.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
LOL. Another metropolitan journo who doesn't understand why the people voted as they did. Hint: get out of your London bubble and go and ask them.
Another Sour Grape.
I'm sure I'd have felt bitter after the 1945 election. I know I felt bitter after the 1997 and 2001 elections. But, you just have to accept that sometimes you lose.
Top Leave candidates: Johnson, Leadsom, Gove, Leadsom, Patel, Leadsom, Villiers?
I've really warmed to Villiers.
...But your first choice is Andrea Leadsom. I understand completely.
There's real talent that's risen to the top as a result of the campaign. I'm absolutely 100% against promotion based on ovaries. Leadsom and Villiers have impressed me. Leadsom in a CoE lite role would suit me. And something big for Villiers.
I've always rather liked May because she's rather no nonsense and steely, but she's been too political over playing Leave/Remain/Leave. I can't trust her. Shame really - but she did it to herself.
I'm always baffled by the concept of Ms May as a leadership candidate. I see her name in the various polls, but I just can't see her appeal.
And in the current climate, she is again, a Remain supporter. So a non-starter.
Well, she won the referendum for REMAIN by keeping control of immigration as Home Secretary. oh
May has been hidden under a rock for the last 6 weeks. She won't be seen as a Remainer.
Yawn. We know all that. Let's get back to the Brexit mayhem!
It's funny, in amongst all of the posts from Brexiteers whining about sore losers, I am struggling to find any posts from sore losers who are not in fact Brexiteers
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
Literally every single other MP. Every single one.
What you are basically saying is that Labour is incapable of even competing at the next election.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Now why was that? What caused the confusion - was there another set of elections that day? I seem to remember them saying on the news that the election may have to be re-run.
Conversation in the Co Op 20 minutes ago: I din't think this would happen, voted Leave to give Cameron a shock, dont think we should actually leave!!! Me too, yes. On such folk and decisions history is made. Perhaps Parliament should have a good look at this.
The current history of the United Kingdom was arguably written on the 3rd of May 2007.
Kenny Gibson won Cunninghame North with a majority of 48 votes. Over 1,000 ballots were rejected. That gave the SNP a minority of 1 seat at Holyrood and let them claim victory in the election. As a result of the incompetence of the other parties, the SNP were allowed to govern. They should not have been.
As a result of that, the SNP demonstrated competence. In 2011 they won an almost impossible majority. This led to the Scottish Referendum of 2014, the wipe out of Scottish Labour in 2015 and the Tory Majority in Westminster in part, at least, based on concern about the SNP having a say in Westminster politics.
Without that Majority for the Tories there would be no EU Ref, there would not be a second Scottish Ref, the UK would not be broken up. There would not be a worldwide impact of current events in the UK.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Victory has many mothers, and there are many events that could have prevented, or precipitated, Brexit. Working backward on a small sample, Tata Steel could have waited a few months to close; Cameron could have accepted the EU associate member deal on the table; he could have not promised a referendum in 2013; Tony Blair could have stayed out of Iraq.
Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
Would Boris go for that?
I very much doubt it - Gove might change his mind after 2 years and would by then be in the box seat to see off Boris and any other challengers.
Shocked that turnout for 18-24 was only 36% (or 38%, can't remember the number from the tweet Plato pasted here)
Yep, the young seem to think they can re-run the referendum on social media. Meanwhile seventeen million - the biggest single vote for anything in UK history - just voted to leave. The old fashioned way, by putting a cross in a box on a ballot paper. No apps involved, maybe that's why they don't quite understand.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
LOL. Another metropolitan journo who doesn't understand why the people voted as they did. Hint: get out of your London bubble and go and ask them.
Another Sour Grape.
I'm sure I'd have felt bitter after the 1945 election. I know I felt bitter after the 1997 and 2001 elections. But, you just have to accept that sometimes you lose.
I agree. We Remainers lost. Decisively. We have to suck it up. England leaves, never to return. And this crap about a second referendum is a cretinous distraction from what is blindingly obvious. You Leavers won and you have to deliver (if you know what it is you're delivering, that is).
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Now why was that? What caused the confusion - was there another set of elections that day? I seem to remember them saying on the news that the election may have to be re-run.
There was an experiment in electronic counting and there was a local election the same day. Both appeared to conspire to cause unprecedented numbers of spoiled ballots (and an SNP majority of 1).
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I'm not too surprised by a element of buyers remorse. Some treated BREXIT as a nationwide by-election with no consequences, perhaps partly because they didn't expect to win.
Whether they've got a pig in a poke is another matter. However what is for sure is that the £350m a week to the NHS (in addition to the manifesto pledge of an extra £12bn a year) will weigh heavily. Especially as I've gobbled up half of that in the past few months myself.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
Yawn. We know all that. Let's get back to the Brexit mayhem!
Except of course it isnt mayhem, the only mayhem is the shouters are shouting while everyone else gets on with life.
Conversation in the Co Op 20 minutes ago: I din't think this would happen, voted Leave to give Cameron a shock, dont think we should actually leave!!! Me too, yes. On such folk and decisions history is made. Perhaps Parliament should have a good look at this.
The current history of the United Kingdom was arguably written on the 3rd of May 2007.
Kenny Gibson won Cunninghame North with a majority of 48 votes. Over 1,000 ballots were rejected. That gave the SNP a minority of 1 seat at Holyrood and let them claim victory in the election. As a result of the incompetence of the other parties, the SNP were allowed to govern. They should not have been.
As a result of that, the SNP demonstrated competence. In 2011 they won an almost impossible majority. This led to the Scottish Referendum of 2014, the wipe out of Scottish Labour in 2015 and the Tory Majority in Westminster in part, at least, based on concern about the SNP having a say in Westminster politics.
Without that Majority for the Tories there would be no EU Ref, there would not be a second Scottish Ref, the UK would not be broken up. There would not be a worldwide impact of current events in the UK.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Victory has many mothers, and there are many events that could have prevented, or precipitated, Brexit. Working backward on a small sample, Tata Steel could have waited a few months to close; Cameron could have accepted the EU associate member deal on the table; he could have not promised a referendum in 2013; Tony Blair could have stayed out of Iraq.
I'd argue that lots of industries get shuttered without genuine upheaval and Steel in 2016 was pretty meanginless to start. Was Associate membership even on the table? I don't believe it was. And Blair won two elections after Iraq, I don't think it is nearly as big a factor as you suggest.
Those 48 votes and 1000 spoilt ballots, on the other hand...
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
They're calling it Regrexit: the Buyer's Remorse of the LEAVE camp.
I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. We will be outside CAP and CFP.
There will be lots of bluster but this will suit everyone, in the end,
Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
Yes, I think you could be right. I was convinced Cameron would do the Article 50 thing that day - almost as a final act of sod-you-all-defiance if nothing else. That he didn't suggests to me that Gove and Boris pleaded with him backstage to give them time to pull things from the fire. The EU will come up with 'the UK Plan', Boris will recommend it, it will then be carried in a subsequent vote. We'll be back where we started, and this will just go down as one of those odd quirks of EU history like Greenland leaving.
No. This is a turning point, like Labour's victory in 1945.
But that was driven by monumental events - world war, end of empire, centuries-old certainties swept away. This is a manifestation of the Trump effect.
We have had decades of certainties swept away. And people have listened to the Establishment, and said "We disagree."
A BBC chappy who was on about 5am - Kamal Something - seemed to really get the *meh, experts*.
He brought up something I'd forgotten. "When you fear that you can't take your own money out of a cashpoint machine in 2008, trust in The Establishment was broken ... why would we trust you ever again if you could let that happen?"
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
Remain failed to “make the case that life for people in Britain was going to be better remaining in the EU,” said a Leave campaign insider. “They just made the case that leaving would be bad. There’s a big difference between those two things.”
Conversation in the Co Op 20 minutes ago: I din't think this would happen, voted Leave to give Cameron a shock, dont think we should actually leave!!! Me too, yes. On such folk and decisions history is made. Perhaps Parliament should have a good look at this.
The current history of the United Kingdom was arguably written on the 3rd of May 2007.
Kenny Gibson won Cunninghame North with a majority of 48 votes. Over 1,000 ballots were rejected. That gave the SNP a minority of 1 seat at Holyrood and let them claim victory in the election. As a result of the incompetence of the other parties, the SNP were allowed to govern. They should not have been.
As a result of that, the SNP demonstrated competence. In 2011 they won an almost impossible majority. This led to the Scottish Referendum of 2014, the wipe out of Scottish Labour in 2015 and the Tory Majority in Westminster in part, at least, based on concern about the SNP having a say in Westminster politics.
Without that Majority for the Tories there would be no EU Ref, there would not be a second Scottish Ref, the UK would not be broken up. There would not be a worldwide impact of current events in the UK.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
There was more than 1 seat like that. The electronic voting and Council elections caused carnage that night.
Corbyn will go as early as Wednesday. He will survive the confidence motion in the same manner as thatcher survived the first round of voting in 1990
Corbyn does not have Thatcher's intelligence or anyone surrounding him capable of understanding reality. He will cling on and the members will love him for it.
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates about people who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
It's the fact you bang on about Blairites and see them as different to other party members that is the problem I am talking about. It's one team. At most two sides of the same coin. Some people want to defeat the so called Blairites -which is defined as anyone they dislike -more than the govt.
In terms of who would make a better leader than Corbyn, I am tempted to say all of them. Margaret Hodge would be fun. Thinking out of the box Balls could stand for Jo Cox's seat. Otherwise off the top of my head Johnson, Benn. Watson or even Harman would be better.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
LOL. Another metropolitan journo who doesn't understand why the people voted as they did. Hint: get out of your London bubble and go and ask them.
Another Sour Grape.
I'm sure I'd have felt bitter after the 1945 election. I know I felt bitter after the 1997 and 2001 elections. But, you just have to accept that sometimes you lose.
Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
Would Boris go for that?
1.I like the notion of a scottish PM being the one to say no to a 2nd scottish indy ref.
2. Really, really, really hate the idea of a General Election before we've completed our leave the EU deal, and there were reports earlier that Mr Johnson wants that.
3. I'd like to see Ms Leadsom on the ballot. She's spent years on the 'fresh start project', so she should be fully up to speed on the most important aspects of our EU relationship.
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
Literally every single other MP. Every single one.
What you are basically saying is that Labour is incapable of even competing at the next election.
Name a specific MP who'd be better, please.
I think Labour competing for a win at the next election is very unlikely, correct. But I think Corbyn would have a better chance of saving the Northern/Midlands heartland seats than a Europhile who'd be sticking the middle finger up at working-class Labour voters and telling them they were too stupid to understand about the EU and that their choice is going to be ignored.
Surely such a formal and significant step requires a vote in Parliament?
The Prime Minister is the head of government of the United Kingdom. If he verbally tells the European Council that the UK wants to invoke Article 50, then that's it, it's done.
Parliament's consent is not required and need not be sought. Parliament is the legislature, not the government (they're not the same thing)
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
Keep it up Danny, you're saying what needs to be said if Labour are to maintain any relevance.
Labour are in as much need of renewal as a party as the Tories, otherwise UKIP are going to do to Labour in England what the SNP did in Scotland.
There's a lot of us on here that were Cameron fans until this referendum campaign, there will be a huge number of floating voters at the next election waiting for someone to want their vote.
Conversation in the Co Op 20 minutes ago: I din't think this would happen, voted Leave to give Cameron a shock, dont think we should actually leave!!! Me too, yes. On such folk and decisions history is made. Perhaps Parliament should have a good look at this.
The current history of the United Kingdom was arguably written on the 3rd of May 2007.
Kenny Gibson won Cunninghame North with a majority of 48 votes. Over 1,000 ballots were rejected. That gave the SNP a minority of 1 seat at Holyrood and let them claim victory in the election. As a result of the incompetence of the other parties, the SNP were allowed to govern. They should not have been.
As a result of that, the SNP demonstrated competence. In 2011 they won an almost impossible majority. This led to the Scottish Referendum of 2014, the wipe out of Scottish Labour in 2015 and the Tory Majority in Westminster in part, at least, based on concern about the SNP having a say in Westminster politics.
Without that Majority for the Tories there would be no EU Ref, there would not be a second Scottish Ref, the UK would not be broken up. There would not be a worldwide impact of current events in the UK.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Who would have believed it would be Cunninghame North, I wonder if I was one of the 48 votes.
Liam Fox apparently hasn't refused to rule himself out. I'm wondering if there are efforts behind the scenes to unite behind a Remainer, and he is sensing an opportunity...
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
Yawn. We know all that. Let's get back to the Brexit mayhem!
Except of course it isnt mayhem, the only mayhem is the shouters are shouting while everyone else gets on with life.
According to the journalist Andrew Pierce, David Cameron received a phone call from his pollster Lord Cooper of Populus at 3pm on polling day informing him that Remain were on course to win the referendum by a 20 point margin.
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I'm not too surprised by a element of buyers remorse. Some treated BREXIT as a nationwide by-election with no consequences, perhaps partly because they didn't expect to win.
Whether they've got a pig in a poke is another matter. However what is for sure is that the £350m a week to the NHS (in addition to the manifesto pledge of an extra £12bn a year) will weigh heavily. Especially as I've gobbled up half of that in the past few months myself.
Doesn't surprise me either, or worry me. Life goes on. Even the most suggestible will realise sooner or later that it's being overdone. Again. Our political establishment really ought to be on the West End stage.
Well, I do not normally comment, but.... I am very disappointed by the result,my children are "Gutted". My Son is a Civil Engineer with a major construction Co, and there were many projects and tenders on hold, now on a very long hold. Recession beckons. The country are now horribly divided, the 2 main parties are divided, the Leavers have no clue what to do now. Boris is now faced with what to do, I think he wanted to be a Valiant loser, and then sweep in to number 10. I used to be a Boris fan, but he has used this referendum for his own ends,regardless of the damage. OK mark me down as a sad loser,time will tell who was right. Just for the record,I am a pensioner, I have 2 degrees, I ran my own business with 100 employees, sold out to a multi national and worked everywhere after the sale. Finally, I do not know where in future I can vote, neither of the 2 main parties inspire.
Welcome to the "None-of-the-Above" Party. We could sweep the next GE.!
2. Really, really, really hate the idea of a General Election before we've completed our leave the EU deal, and there were reports earlier that Mr Johnson wants that.
There has to be an election before a deal.
Any PM that signs up to free movement after this vote is going to get crucified
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Now why was that? What caused the confusion - was there another set of elections that day? I seem to remember them saying on the news that the election may have to be re-run.
Electronic counting machines used forte first time rejected a ludicrous number of ballots.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Now why was that? What caused the confusion - was there another set of elections that day? I seem to remember them saying on the news that the election may have to be re-run.
There was an experiment in electronic counting and there was a local election the same day. Both appeared to conspire to cause unprecedented numbers of spoiled ballots (and an SNP majority of 1).
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
"the post match analysis" what on earth are we pretending that the national media don't exist
Who would have believed it would be Cunninghame North, I wonder if I was one of the 48 votes.
Unless you couldn't fill a ballot paper in correctly or didn't vote SNP, then yes, you almost certainly were one of the 48 people who changed the world.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
They're calling it Regrexit: the Buyer's Remorse of the LEAVE camp.
I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. We will be outside CAP and CFP.
There will be lots of bluster but this will suit everyone, in the end,
Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
Yes, I think you could be right. 'll be back where we started, and this will just go down as one of those odd quirks of EU history like Greenland leaving.
No. This is a turning point, like Labour's victory in 1945.
But that was driven by monumental events - world war, end of empire, centuries-old certainties swept away. This is a manifestation of the Trump effect.
We have had decades of certainties swept away. And people have listened to the Establishment, and said "We disagree."
A BBC chappy who was on about 5am - Kamal Something - seemed to really get the *meh, experts*.
He brought up something I'd forgotten. "When you fear that you can't take your own money out of a cashpoint machine in 2008, trust in The Establishment was broken ... why would we trust you ever again if you could let that happen?"
Morris Dancer described it as the mentality of the caveman. You do as the Shaman tells you, because he's the Big Important Person. We've learned that the Shaman sometimes has feet of clay.
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
With the head of the largest centre right and centre left grouping both giving open support for continuing Scottish membership truly Scotland will be at the back if the queue.
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
Literally every single other MP. Every single one.
What you are basically saying is that Labour is incapable of even competing at the next election.
Name a specific MP who'd be better, please.
I think Labour competing for a win at the next election is very unlikely, correct. But I think Corbyn would have a better chance of saving the Northern/Midlands heartland seats than a Europhile who'd be sticking the middle finger up at working-class Labour voters and telling them they were too stupid to understand about the EU and that their choice is going to be ignored.
That's right, working class Labour voters will flock to support Jezza's open borders, anti-Trident, pro-Hamas, pro-IRA message. They'll thrill at his disdain for patriotism and his obssession with overseas aid.
Someone like Dan Jarvis on the other hand - who represents a solid working class northern seat and served his country for 20 years - would be held in total scorn because he campaigned for Labour policy. I expect he'll lose his seat at the next GE.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
Yawn. We know all that. Let's get back to the Brexit mayhem!
Except of course it isnt mayhem, the only mayhem is the shouters are shouting while everyone else gets on with life.
Correct. Stark Raving is a bore.
It's not nice to accuse people of being paid to post with zero evidence. However, leaving aside paid trolling, there is an indefinable pull of power, money, influence, patronage, even just wanting to be in the winners' circle. If that centre of gravity in the UK is pulled away from the Cameronites, it will be interesting to see which of our posters change, turn, or simply disappear.
Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Now why was that? What caused the confusion - was there another set of elections that day? I seem to remember them saying on the news that the election may have to be re-run.
There was an experiment in electronic counting and there was a local election the same day. Both appeared to conspire to cause unprecedented numbers of spoiled ballots (and an SNP majority of 1).
Good grief. You're obsessed by Blairites. No one outside Labour cares. The party is disappearing up its own arse. FWIW it is Kinnock who is the most influential leader on Europe.
Until it draws on all its talent and stops fighting the last war or the one before that Labour is doomed.
There's no point having policies if you can't or won't communicate them. That's why Corbyn has to go.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? "No-one outside Labour cares about Blairites" -- I freely conceded that most people outside of Labour didn't even know what the term "Blairite" means, let alone caring about whether a leadership candidate is officially labelled a Blairite. The point is what the policies are -- do you agree that the policy mix offered by the Blairites (or the "moderates") in the PLP would be toxic in the Labour heartlands? NOT the Blairites as people before you start creating a straw-man argument again, but the POLICIES that Chuka, Kendall et al advocate?
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
Literally every single other MP. Every single one.
What you are basically saying is that Labour is incapable of even competing at the next election.
Name a specific MP who'd be better, please.
I think Labour competing for a win at the next election is very unlikely, correct. But I think Corbyn would have a better chance of saving the Northern/Midlands heartland seats than a Europhile who'd be sticking the middle finger up at working-class Labour voters and telling them they were too stupid to understand about the EU and that their choice is going to be ignored.
Really? He may have been lukewarm (at best) about the EU but he is more pro-immigration than most of the Europhiles. At least they usually pay lip service to "understanding the concerns" even if never doing anything about it. He spent the campaign actively arguing in favour of unlimited immigration.
Liam Fox apparently hasn't refused to rule himself out. I'm wondering if there are efforts behind the scenes to unite behind a Remainer, and he is sensing an opportunity...
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I only see the Telegraph and Spectator columnists as being in a jubilant mood for the last couple of days. Those are the Dan Hannans, Fraser Nelsons, Charles Moores and others who have consistently made a positive case for a self-governing UK for years.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
Boris is to Cameron what Hestletine was to Thatcher.
It will be hard for him to be PM
Which is why I think Gove has a strong chance if he runs, he was top of the most recent Tory members' poll and both Cameron and Osborne are closer to him than Boris
I would vote for Gove over Boris but he is a man of his word and I do not believe he would run.
I agree about Gove - I actually think he would be a great PM, but he's been made it clear on numerous occasions since 2010 that he's not interested in the top job.
Boris v Theresa for the Membership to pick?
Gove as PM for two years - uncontested. In place in a fortnight. There to oversee Brexit. Post-dated letter of resignation handed in to the '22 when he walks into Downing Street. Then in a couple of years he hands over to whoever the party has selected to replace him, having had two years in which the challengers can make their mark in his Cabinet.
Tata Steel bidder about to withdraw offer because of Brexit. Well done, Wales !
There is a strong strand in Wales, and indeed in other Labour heartlands, of we want LEAVE and we don't care.
Time will tell if buyers remorse has legs but in the final analysis on this bill of sale no returns are available.
The approach of the media to the result will presumably be tipping some people into buyer's remorse. If they were being upbeat and excited, it would be different.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
I'm not too surprised by a element of buyers remorse. Some treated BREXIT as a nationwide by-election with no consequences, perhaps partly because they didn't expect to win.
Whether they've got a pig in a poke is another matter. However what is for sure is that the £350m a week to the NHS (in addition to the manifesto pledge of an extra £12bn a year) will weigh heavily. Especially as I've gobbled up half of that in the past few months myself.
Doesn't surprise me either, or worry me. Life goes on. Even the most suggestible will realise sooner or later that it's being overdone. Again. Our political establishment really ought to be on the West End stage.
I was reading a very interesting piece that Miss Plato posted earlier, which re-analyzed what had gone wrong for REMAIN.
The point about the £350m that REMAIN kept (and keep) on about is that the actual amount wasn't really important to voters. Whether it was £350m or £120m it just reminded voters that a huge amount (though probably not as much as LEAVE was claiming) was going to the EU.
It was a huge error for REMAIN to keep going on about the £350m.
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
With the head of the largest centre right and centre left grouping both giving open support for continuing Scottish membership truly Scotland will be at the back if the queue.
Sturgeon will have to be careful she doesn't just let herself get used as a pawn to force the UK government to invoke Article 50.
Top Leave candidates: Johnson, Leadsom, Gove, Leadsom, Patel, Leadsom, Villiers?
I've really warmed to Villiers.
...But your first choice is Andrea Leadsom. I understand completely.
There's real talent that's risen to the top as a result of the campaign. I'm absolutely 100% against promotion based on ovaries. Leadsom and Villiers have impressed me. Leadsom in a CoE lite role would suit me. And something big for Villiers.
I've always rather liked May because she's rather no nonsense and steely, but she's been too political over playing Leave/Remain/Leave. I can't trust her. Shame really - but she did it to herself.
I'm always baffled by the concept of Ms May as a leadership candidate. I see her name in the various polls, but I just can't see her appeal.
And in the current climate, she is again, a Remain supporter. So a non-starter.
Well, she won the referendum for REMAIN by keeping control of immigration as Home Secretary. oh
May has been hidden under a rock for the last 6 weeks. She won't be seen as a Remainer.
Oh yes she will. We're talking Tory members here. Everyone who claimed to be a Eurosceptic and then backed Remain is known to their local party or if a big name.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
here the facts Scott
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence You insulted and threatened your supporters You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
According to the journalist Andrew Pierce, David Cameron received a phone call from his pollster Lord Cooper of Populus at 3pm on polling day informing him that Remain were on course to win the referendum by a 20 point margin.
According to the journalist Andrew Pierce, David Cameron received a phone call from his pollster Lord Cooper of Populus at 3pm on polling day informing him that Remain were on course to win the referendum by a 20 point margin.
Top Leave candidates: Johnson, Leadsom, Gove, Leadsom, Patel, Leadsom, Villiers?
I've really warmed to Villiers.
...But your first choice is Andrea Leadsom. I understand completely.
There's real talent that's risen to the top as a result of the campaign. I'm absolutely 100% against promotion based on ovaries. Leadsom and Villiers have impressed me. Leadsom in a CoE lite role would suit me. And something big for Villiers.
I've always rather liked May because she's rather no nonsense and steely, but she's been too political over playing Leave/Remain/Leave. I can't trust her. Shame really - but she did it to herself.
I'm always baffled by the concept of Ms May as a leadership candidate. I see her name in the various polls, but I just can't see her appeal.
And in the current climate, she is again, a Remain supporter. So a non-starter.
Well, she won the referendum for REMAIN by keeping control of immigration as Home Secretary. oh
May has been hidden under a rock for the last 6 weeks. She won't be seen as a Remainer.
Oh yes she will. We're talking Tory members here. Everyone who claimed to be a Eurosceptic and then backed Remain is known to their local party or if a big name.
It doesn't matter what Tory members think if no leaver makes the final 2 ballot.
Interestingly, the person appointed to lead the Brexit negotiations on the EU side, Didier Seeuws, is a former spokesperson for Guy Verhofstadt, who was tweeting support for Scotland staying in the EU today.
With the head of the largest centre right and centre left grouping both giving open support for continuing Scottish membership truly Scotland will be at the back if the queue.
The only people told they'd be at the back of the queue is Westminster by Obama.
Comments
It's quite bizarre. The very people they felt were ignored by the likes of EdM and Corbyn are now all supposed to hug a Party who wants unlimited EU immigration. I honestly have no idea what makes them tick here.
I'm sure I'd have felt bitter after the 1945 election. I know I felt bitter after the 1997 and 2001 elections. But, you just have to accept that sometimes you lose.
But the Leave vote survived all the forecasts of doom, so what do I know?
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?
Like having a little brat in the car constantly whining, "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" two minutes after you've left home.
Time wasters!
And you're still not suggesting any actual candidates who would stand a better chance of winning a general election than Corbyn. We can all create fantasy hypothetical candidates who are good communicators and have a great intellect, but we have to work with what's actually on offer from the current Labour MPs. Please, go ahead and name one.
you lost.
you lost because your campaign was total crap.
You didnt understand where you were starting from
You offered a renegotiation which insulted voters intelligence
You insulted and threatened your supporters
You scare mongered to the point no-one believed you
You seriously misjudged the mood of the nation and paraded rich celebs and bankers to compain how much money theyd lose on exit
You hadnt a team and no inkling of how labour voters were thinking
You lost by just over a million votes, votes you should have had in the bag if you had been able keep those you badgered, insulted and laughed at on board.
So if youre feeling sore look in the mirror
oh
We don't live in the world of Logan's Run.
Kenny Gibson won Cunninghame North with a majority of 48 votes. Over 1,000 ballots were rejected. That gave the SNP a minority of 1 seat at Holyrood and let them claim victory in the election. As a result of the incompetence of the other parties, the SNP were allowed to govern. They should not have been.
As a result of that, the SNP demonstrated competence. In 2011 they won an almost impossible majority. This led to the Scottish Referendum of 2014, the wipe out of Scottish Labour in 2015 and the Tory Majority in Westminster in part, at least, based on concern about the SNP having a say in Westminster politics.
Without that Majority for the Tories there would be no EU Ref, there would not be a second Scottish Ref, the UK would not be broken up. There would not be a worldwide impact of current events in the UK.
And all because of 48 votes, in one seat, on one day, with over 1,000 rejected ballots.
Would Boris go for that?
What you are basically saying is that Labour is incapable of even competing at the next election.
as I pointed out throughout the campaign the problem with Camerons victory at all costs is the bill must eventually turn up.
It did so with a vengence at 8am on Friday
The Bank of England says... experts
The IMF... experts
The OECD... experts
Oh, shit.
Whether they've got a pig in a poke is another matter. However what is for sure is that the £350m a week to the NHS (in addition to the manifesto pledge of an extra £12bn a year) will weigh heavily. Especially as I've gobbled up half of that in the past few months myself.
Those 48 votes and 1000 spoilt ballots, on the other hand...
He brought up something I'd forgotten. "When you fear that you can't take your own money out of a cashpoint machine in 2008, trust in The Establishment was broken ... why would we trust you ever again if you could let that happen?"
From the Politico postmortem:
Remain failed to “make the case that life for people in Britain was going to be better remaining in the EU,” said a Leave campaign insider. “They just made the case that leaving would be bad. There’s a big difference between those two things.”
The electronic voting and Council elections caused carnage that night.
In terms of who would make a better leader than Corbyn, I am tempted to say all of them.
Margaret Hodge would be fun.
Thinking out of the box Balls could stand for Jo Cox's seat.
Otherwise off the top of my head Johnson, Benn. Watson or even Harman would be better.
2. Really, really, really hate the idea of a General Election before we've completed our leave the EU deal, and there were reports earlier that Mr Johnson wants that.
3. I'd like to see Ms Leadsom on the ballot. She's spent years on the 'fresh start project', so she should be fully up to speed on the most important aspects of our EU relationship.
I think Labour competing for a win at the next election is very unlikely, correct. But I think Corbyn would have a better chance of saving the Northern/Midlands heartland seats than a Europhile who'd be sticking the middle finger up at working-class Labour voters and telling them they were too stupid to understand about the EU and that their choice is going to be ignored.
Parliament's consent is not required and need not be sought. Parliament is the legislature, not the government (they're not the same thing)
"WTF have we done. and will anyone ever forgive us?"
I will not be terribly surprised if Boris doesn't run.
Labour are in as much need of renewal as a party as the Tories, otherwise UKIP are going to do to Labour in England what the SNP did in Scotland.
There's a lot of us on here that were Cameron fans until this referendum campaign, there will be a huge number of floating voters at the next election waiting for someone to want their vote.
Stark Raving is a bore.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659064/ANDREW-PIERCE-Complacency-Number-10-bunker-turned-panic-tears.html
Any PM that signs up to free movement after this vote is going to get crucified
Umm, but Gove is Scottish himself.
Err, oops.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
A total unmitigated farce.
I've always believed you are very well "connected" to the UK establishment, so can you tell us how things are in Downing St?
And more pertinently whether anybody has set eyes on Osborne since Wednesday?
what on earth are we pretending that the national media don't exist
And people say voting doesn't matter.
Someone like Dan Jarvis on the other hand - who represents a solid working class northern seat and served his country for 20 years - would be held in total scorn because he campaigned for Labour policy. I expect he'll lose his seat at the next GE.
The rest of the print and especially broadcast media is having a massive collective WTF?
The point about the £350m that REMAIN kept (and keep) on about is that the actual amount wasn't really important to voters. Whether it was £350m or £120m it just reminded voters that a huge amount (though probably not as much as LEAVE was claiming) was going to the EU.
It was a huge error for REMAIN to keep going on about the £350m.
Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.