I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
Make it so.
Edinburgh was an Anglo-Saxon city, correct?
So you are advocating Partition?
Do we have any previous examples of the British state involving itself in Partition when a country departs?
"The Brits partitioned MY country too, you know!" - Sunil prior to having his Tebbit Chip successfully implanted.
Did you see Mr Tebbit on the telly the other day? That man has gotten old. Still got it though!
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
Given that Parliament will not reassemble following the party conferences until mid-October , it seems unlikely that any No Confidence Vote could be engineered before the second half of the month. Two weeks would then have to pass before a Dissolution occurs automatically which would imply that Polling Day could be the beginning of December. Would that be feasible or popular? I believe that the last December election was in 1918.
There doesn't have to be a no confidence motion - an early election can be called under 2 (1-2) of the FTPA as well as 2 (3-5).
It will be a tight squeeze to get a new PM in, then have an election in October.
It look as if Michael Gove was telling the truth as regards not wanting to become Prime Minister - he's as big as 23 with Betfair. It's looking like a two horse race with Boris the odds-on favourite and Mrs May available at around 5/2. Personally I don't rate either of these two for the top job, so I'm tempted to have a good sprinkling of small bets on less fancied runners in the hope that someone at vastly greater odds might win. I seem to recall that at this stage of the proceedings last time, Cameron was still very much an outsider.
Is Hammond out? He's way off on BF at 170.
He must be the most invisible Foreign Secretary in living memory. One might normally have expected him to have led the Government's so-called re-negotiations with the EU, which ended in such abject failure, costing Cameron his job when he chose to show off the Emperor's new clothes. I can't recall Hammond being anywhere to be seen at the time - Cameron seemed to be solely in charge. On past performance, I'll be very surprised if he even remains in the Cabinet. Anyway, it's high time we saw some new blood promoted, the Tories are suddenly looking very stale and tired.
I agree. I think both Hammond and May chose their careers over their views and basically sat the referendum out rather than be disloyal to the PM. Such cowardice deserves no reward.
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
They shouldn't exclude Mr Farage. He and UKIP were a big part of getting and winning the referendum.
They can exclude Farage (not a UKIP MP) and include Carswell (a UKIP MP) and include UKIP.
They can. I don't think they should. The man deserves to be a part of the finish.
I am tempted to say that Farage should be sent to Brussels as Jonathan Hill's replacement just to encourage Brussels to settle the deal quickly and fairly.
" The campaign conducted more than 40 focus groups, which revealed the extent to which the erosion of public trust had led to cynicism about the raft of experts the remain camp produced to warn about Brexit. Some believed that Cameron and Osborne were also damaged by the fallout from the budget and the Panama Papers controversy about the tax affairs of the prime minister’s father.
One strategist said: “The public just said they lie and pull the wool over our eyes. I asked one woman to give me an example of these lies, and she said, ‘9/11’. The only people the public slightly trusted were Martin Lewis, Richard Branson and, on a good day, Mark Carney so long as he was not seen as a banker. We had a credibility problem, but so now does all public debate in the UK.”
The glorious legacy one Mr Anthony Blair and his henchman Ali Campbell.
The longer the distance from Blair's term - the more I look back in horror at what he did.
- PCness - rubbing our faces in diversity - mass uncontrolled immigration - devolution - poisoning public trust over Iraq - explosion of political biased charities/NGOs - placemen across quangos - not standing up to Gordon - spin and government by press release
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
Back to chippy shoulders.
you have a parliament, you can raise taxes you can decide what you spend it on.
most english people don't even think about scotland or care
Now now Alan, most of our taxes still head to Westminster, never to return. Wasted by scoundrels.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
Build a wall and Sturgeon will pay for it. Yeah.
You may not know this. There is a wall already. The Romans built it. They were also Europeans.
There's two of those. I think the Antonine Wall is probably a better border for an independent Scotland.
Scots north of the Antonine Wall can have a referendum. Scots south of the Antonine Wall are now living in northern England.
Make it so.
Edinburgh was an Anglo-Saxon city, correct?
So you are advocating Partition?
Do we have any previous examples of the British state involving itself in Partition when a country departs?
"The Brits partitioned MY country too, you know!" - Sunil prior to having his Tebbit Chip successfully implanted.
Did you see Mr Tebbit on the telly the other day? That man has gotten old. Still got it though!
Yes. I still remember him being pulled out alive from Brighton bomb wreckage in 1984.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
....I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. ..... Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
It will be the Conservative party that IMHO is at risk from UKIP in those circumstances, as some Conservative voters of the circa 55% will defect to UKIP. My guess is at least 1/3.
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
It's a good idea, it will keep a check on English refugees trying to get into Scotland. Of course England will have to pay for it.
Make Scotland Great Again.
After all, English refugees will have other options.
Douglas Carswell Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp
They shouldn't exclude Mr Farage. He and UKIP were a big part of getting and winning the referendum.
They can exclude Farage (not a UKIP MP) and include Carswell (a UKIP MP) and include UKIP.
They can. I don't think they should. The man deserves to be a part of the finish.
I am tempted to say he should be sent to Brussels as Jonathan Hill's replacement just to encourage Brussels to settle the deal quickly and fairly.
Scotland is now a nation with a separate culture and identity to England and Wales, I think an amicable separation is inevitable
Agreed. Scotland and England are now irreconcilable. As the poet Frost observed " Good fences make good neighbours ". It's Nicola's civic duty to start work on that wall.
It's a good idea, it will keep a check on English refugees trying to get into Scotland. Of course England will have to pay for it.
Make Scotland Great Again.
After all, English refugees will have other options.
" The campaign conducted more than 40 focus groups, which revealed the extent to which the erosion of public trust had led to cynicism about the raft of experts the remain camp produced to warn about Brexit. Some believed that Cameron and Osborne were also damaged by the fallout from the budget and the Panama Papers controversy about the tax affairs of the prime minister’s father.
One strategist said: “The public just said they lie and pull the wool over our eyes. I asked one woman to give me an example of these lies, and she said, ‘9/11’. The only people the public slightly trusted were Martin Lewis, Richard Branson and, on a good day, Mark Carney so long as he was not seen as a banker. We had a credibility problem, but so now does all public debate in the UK.”
The glorious legacy one Mr Anthony Blair and his henchman Ali Campbell.
The longer the distance from Blair's term - the more I look back in horror at what he did.
- PCness - rubbing our faces in diversity - mass uncontrolled immigration - devolution - poisoning public trust over Iraq - explosion of political biased charities/NGOs - placemen across quangos - not standing up to Gordon - spin and government by press release
And that's just off the top of my head.
"devolution" holy god they think they should rule foreigners while also not wanting foreigners to be seen or heard
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it would be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was the first to allow it.
Um, really?
Before Lisbon there was no procedure as such but withdrawal was possible, in theory and practice (as Greenland showed). If nothing else, we could have (and arguably still can) simply repeal the European Communities Act.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it weould be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was thre first to allow it.
And you're telling me that people wouldn't be bothered about unlimited immigration and real or imagined sins of Brussels if only they'd had a vote on whether to have full EU plus Lisbon vs full EU minus Lisbon? Verily, you reside on another, possibly more intellectual, planet.
We could have left if we had wanted to pre-Lisbon.
We can leave at any by simply repealing the European Communities Act 1972. That would have the effect of removing any sovereignty the ECJ has over the UK.
*However*, that would leave a lot of things in legal limbo, in particular around double taxation.
For this reason, I think Article 50 is the right way to go.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
They're calling it Regrexit: the Buyer's Remorse of the LEAVE camp.
I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. We will be outside CAP and CFP.
There will be lots of bluster but this will suit everyone, in the end,
Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
Oh yes were on for a classic British fudge.
Well stay in the single market, chip in something to the EU budget, get some controls over immigration ( mostl likely de facto through control of the benefits system ) but be guaranteed out of ever closer Union. And Scotland won't know what to do since it only wants the EU menu a la carte itself.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Indeed so. But it doesn't mean he can't make a complete arse of himself from time to time.
I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
Jack, I hope you are feeling better. Did you have any feeling that Remain might be in trouble in last few weeks?
Thank you yes but I'm getting used to a pretty secretary PBing for me.
"In trouble". Frankly not tight enough for a squeeky REMAIN bum. My mistake was not taking sufficient account for WWC BREXIT turnout. My ARSE would have finished around 52/48 on a 68% turnout. Out by 4 points all round.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
They're calling it Regrexit: the Buyer's Remorse of the LEAVE camp.
I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. We will be outside CAP and CFP.
There will be lots of bluster but this will suit everyone, in the end,
Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
You are probably broadly correct that the new world will look much like the old, but I am not sure we can opt out of CFP without having to buy back quotas from Spanish fleets, or what the point would be since we don't have much of a fishing industry left.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
They're calling it Regrexit: the Buyer's Remorse of the LEAVE camp.
I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. We will be outside CAP and CFP.
There will be lots of bluster but this will suit everyone, in the end,
Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Thanks! Without commenting on Anna, Broxtowe has never had an MP who wasn't a full-on Europhile. My predecessor Jim Lester, who had held the seat for 23 years since it was created, was so pro-EU that the Times endorsed me by name as the less Europhile candidate. (I'm not sure they'd actually checked me out or they might have thought twice.)
You can see this as an illustration of the limits of FPTP. With an open list system, people could choose not just the party but the preferred candidate within the party, e.g. a Eurosceptic Labour MP.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it would be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was the first to allow it.
Um, really?
Before Lisbon there was no procedure as such but withdrawal was possible, in theory and practice (as Greenland showed). If nothing else, we could have (and arguably still can) simply repeal the European Communities Act.
What trade restrictions exist between Greenland and the rest of the Kingdom of Denmark?
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
Back to chippy shoulders.
you have a parliament, you can raise taxes you can decide what you spend it on.
most english people don't even think about scotland or care
Now now Alan, most of our taxes still head to Westminster, never to return. Wasted by scoundrels.
why do think scottish politicians wouldn't waste it?
After Wales scored, my NI Outright never got locked out or changed its cash out value, allowing me to book a profit I had been hee-hawing about taking the last few days.
Is this standard practice or just a quirk with this particular bet? Do tournament odds tend not to change during individual games?
Good question. I'm tempted to green up on the basis of my bet on Wales @75 which would leave my best results as Germany and Spain.
The most important post you will read today is @SeanT's post above. #Regrexit is now the thing. SeanT has it. Your children have it. The country has it.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
They're calling it Regrexit: the Buyer's Remorse of the LEAVE camp.
I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. We will be outside CAP and CFP.
There will be lots of bluster but this will suit everyone, in the end,
Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
Yep, those who have to suffer the horrors of Bulgarian neighbours will be furious
I'm a long time lurker and merely a bit part bettor, but I've made a small donation to this excellent website after a small win on Thursday.
I've also decided to post on occasion now the temperature is lower post-referendum, especially as we are in a fascinating political period. I'm an Independent councillor - Conservative minded - but currently something of a party political orphan - hence the moniker.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Thanks! Without commenting on Anna, Broxtowe has never had an MP who wasn't a full-on Europhile. My predecessor Jim Lester, who had held the seat for 23 years since it was created, was so pro-EU that the Times endorsed me by name as the less Europhile candidate. (I'm not sure they'd actually checked me out or they might have thought twice.)
You can see this as an illustration of the limits of FPTP. With an open list system, people could choose not just the party but the preferred candidate within the party, e.g. a Eurosceptic Labour MP.
Some of the stories coming out about Corbyn are pretty shameful, what do you reckon?
Well, I do not normally comment, but.... I am very disappointed by the result,my children are "Gutted". My Son is a Civil Engineer with a major construction Co, and there were many projects and tenders on hold, now on a very long hold. Recession beckons. The country are now horribly divided, the 2 main parties are divided, the Leavers have no clue what to do now. Boris is now faced with what to do, I think he wanted to be a Valiant loser, and then sweep in to number 10. I used to be a Boris fan, but he has used this referendum for his own ends,regardless of the damage. OK mark me down as a sad loser,time will tell who was right. Just for the record,I am a pensioner, I have 2 degrees, I ran my own business with 100 employees, sold out to a multi national and worked everywhere after the sale. Finally, I do not know where in future I can vote, neither of the 2 main parties inspire.
I think the SNP have gamed this and know it is a completely non viable and unwinnable proposition. That is why they campaigned for remain. It made independence much easier than it is going to be now. So Nicola will want to ensure that the UK has single market access so an independent Scotland would have that access with rUK. Anything else is a non starter.
Your posts seem to be becoming more and more detached from reality. At the moment there is Ruth, Kezia (both apparently without much support from their parties) and you refusing to countenance a second referendum.
The process has already begun, it is very clear from Sturgeon's actions and words so far.
If Scotland would rather be a region of a federal EU subservient to Brussels rather than a country within the UK in partnership with London; rather use the euro than the pound; and rather be in the Schengen area than the CTA - then I wish them the very best.
Outside the EU, Scotland will be subservient to parochial English who gave Cameron a majority because they were angried up about uppity Scots.
The English quite rightly rejected the idea of a party that does not have the best interests of the UK at heart forming a key part of the government of the UK. The SNP is not Scotland.
See? The English decide what is the UK interest. This is the very definition of subservience.
Back to chippy shoulders.
you have a parliament, you can raise taxes you can decide what you spend it on.
most english people don't even think about scotland or care
Now now Alan, most of our taxes still head to Westminster, never to return. Wasted by scoundrels.
why do think scottish politicians wouldn't waste it?
The most important post you will read today is @SeanT's post above. #Regrexit is now the thing. SeanT has it. Your children have it. The country has it.
youre back to believing what you read on the internet.
I'm a long time lurker and merely a bit part bettor, but I've made a small donation to this excellent website after a small win on Thursday.
I've also decided to post on occasion now the temperature is lower post-referendum, especially as we are in a fascinating political period. I'm an Independent councillor - Conservative minded - but currently something of a party political orphan - hence the moniker.
Welcome aboard Mr Orphan. You're in fine company. Look forward to reading your thoughts.
I'm a long time lurker and merely a bit part bettor, but I've made a small donation to this excellent website after a small win on Thursday.
I've also decided to post on occasion now the temperature is lower post-referendum, especially as we are in a fascinating political period. I'm an Independent councillor - Conservative minded - but currently something of a party political orphan - hence the moniker.
" The campaign conducted more than 40 focus groups, which revealed the extent to which the erosion of public trust had led to cynicism about the raft of experts the remain camp produced to warn about Brexit. Some believed that Cameron and Osborne were also damaged by the fallout from the budget and the Panama Papers controversy about the tax affairs of the prime minister’s father.
One strategist said: “The public just said they lie and pull the wool over our eyes. I asked one woman to give me an example of these lies, and she said, ‘9/11’. The only people the public slightly trusted were Martin Lewis, Richard Branson and, on a good day, Mark Carney so long as he was not seen as a banker. We had a credibility problem, but so now does all public debate in the UK.”
The glorious legacy one Mr Anthony Blair and his henchman Ali Campbell.
The longer the distance from Blair's term - the more I look back in horror at what he did. - PCness - rubbing our faces in diversity - mass uncontrolled immigration - devolution - poisoning public trust over Iraq - explosion of political biased charities/NGOs - placemen across quangos - not standing up to Gordon - spin and government by press release ................
Now if only Chilcott finished off Blair as a public figure under a ton of smelly stuff. Impeachment would be a nice bonus!
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it would be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was the first to allow it.
Um, really?
Before Lisbon there was no procedure as such but withdrawal was possible, in theory and practice (as Greenland showed). If nothing else, we could have (and arguably still can) simply repeal the European Communities Act.
What trade restrictions exist between Greenland and the rest of the Kingdom of Denmark?
Er, what trade exists between Greenland the rest of the Kingdom of Denmark? Four walrus tusks and a bag of ice?
Has Camerron told him he's about to dump him in a re-shuffle next week and George has gone into a mega sulk - I can't think of any other logical explanation.
I'm a long time lurker and merely a bit part bettor, but I've made a small donation to this excellent website after a small win on Thursday.
I've also decided to post on occasion now the temperature is lower post-referendum, especially as we are in a fascinating political period. I'm an Independent councillor - Conservative minded - but currently something of a party political orphan - hence the moniker.
Welcome. I think more of us are going to feel like political orphans in the next year than ever before.
Before Lisbon there was no procedure as such but withdrawal was possible, in theory and practice (as Greenland showed). If nothing else, we could have (and arguably still can) simply repeal the European Communities Act.
Yes, and it's still possible, but it has never been seriously mooted in practice, because the effect would be to remove us, cold turkey (sic), from the single market with no special arrangements whatever.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Indeed so. But it doesn't mean he can't make a complete arse of himself from time to time.
I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
Crosby 1 Arse 0
Congratulations to Rod. I didn't see his initial or final numbers. Do you recall them?
He didn't call it either way, but did vote out.
Thanks Dr Fox.
Perhaps we'll consult over a dram or several one day. After all I do seem to have meet most of the British medical profession and their assorted kit in recent years.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
Soubry is bitter that her political career is now over. She should just crawl back under the rock she emerged from.
An opportunity for Nick Palmer for the forthcoming election maybe?
Soubry has lost all credibility in the past few weeks, if the local Conservatives have any sense they'll deselect her before they lose the seat back to Labour.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Thanks! Without commenting on Anna, Broxtowe has never had an MP who wasn't a full-on Europhile. My predecessor Jim Lester, who had held the seat for 23 years since it was created, was so pro-EU that the Times endorsed me by name as the less Europhile candidate. (I'm not sure they'd actually checked me out or they might have thought twice.)
You can see this as an illustration of the limits of FPTP. With an open list system, people could choose not just the party but the preferred candidate within the party, e.g. a Eurosceptic Labour MP.
Some of the stories coming out about Corbyn are pretty shameful, what do you reckon?
I reckon maybe Mr Palmer and his colleagues should have kept their promise to introduce a fair voting system, when they had the chance. Being favour of fairness only when in opposition is of no use to anyone.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
Given that Parliament will not reassemble following the party conferences until mid-October , it seems unlikely that any No Confidence Vote could be engineered before the second half of the month. Two weeks would then have to pass before a Dissolution occurs automatically which would imply that Polling Day could be the beginning of December. Would that be feasible or popular? I believe that the last December election was in 1918.
There doesn't have to be a no confidence motion - an early election can be called under 2 (1-2) of the FTPA as well as 2 (3-5).
But that would require the Opposition to back such a move. If the polls are not encoraging such support will not be forthcoming.
Before Lisbon there was no procedure as such but withdrawal was possible, in theory and practice (as Greenland showed). If nothing else, we could have (and arguably still can) simply repeal the European Communities Act.
Yes, and it's still possible, but it has never been seriously mooted in practice, because the effect would be to remove us, cold turkey (sic), from the single market with no special arrangements whatever.
You don't think there would have been a period of negotiation before hand? In any case, you are wrong to say leaving the EU was impossible pre-Lisbon. The only difference is it now has a formal structure.
Wasn't there some postings on Twitter that he had G7 meetings during the day on Friday?
I thought Mark Carney had kidnapped him and was holding him in the basement of the BoE to stop him saying something stupid that would add to the markets' troubles. Maybe he'll be let out at lunchtime on Monday if the markets have stabilised.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
....I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. ..... Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
It will be the Conservative party that IMHO is at risk from UKIP in those circumstances, as some Conservative voters of the circa 55% will defect to UKIP. My guess is at least 1/3.
That's grim. But it's not like Britain was devoid of right wing nutters before Brexit.
They'll be same ex-BNP types that have had the same protests for years - just that this weekend some of the media will be trying to pin them to the whole Leave campaign.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Indeed so. But it doesn't mean he can't make a complete arse of himself from time to time.
I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
Crosby 1 Arse 0
Congratulations to Rod. I didn't see his initial or final numbers. Do you recall them?
He didn't call it either way, but did vote out.
Thanks Dr Fox.
Perhaps we'll consult over a dram or several one day. After all I do seem to have meet most of the British medical profession and their assorted kit in recent years.
Good to see you posting again Jack, just don't overdo it - you are after all 109yrs and 5 months by my reckoning.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it would be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was the first to allow it.
And you're telling me that people wouldn't be bothered about unlimited immigration and real or imagined sins of Brussels if only they'd had a vote on whether to have full EU plus Lisbon vs full EU minus Lisbon? Verily, you reside on another, possibly more intellectual, planet.
Actually yes. There's back story to this. The Labour manifesto of 2005 promised a referendum on the European Constitution. The constitution was roundly kicked into touch across the continent before it came to us. EU went back to drawing board and came up with a softer "tidying up exercise" called the Treaty of Lisbon.
The government decided that a referendum was not needed. In 2007 when Gordon Brown took over as PM, he allowed rumours of an early snap election to be spread. At this point Cameron offered a "cast iron guarantee that he would hold a referendum on the lisbon treaty.
Unfortunately the election was not called, Brown signed the treaty without a referendum, it was then subsequently ratified across the other member states.
Cameron was in the humiliating position of having to backtrack as once treaty in place, you cant have a referendum on it, just whether or not you leave.
At this point on this forum, you sniggered, you laughed about how Cameron had taken the blame for a treaty that would never have got passed.
That is the source of this referendum.
Congratulations, you're not laughing now as your beloved project is teetering on demise.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
Given that Parliament will not reassemble following the party conferences until mid-October , it seems unlikely that any No Confidence Vote could be engineered before the second half of the month. Two weeks would then have to pass before a Dissolution occurs automatically which would imply that Polling Day could be the beginning of December. Would that be feasible or popular? I believe that the last December election was in 1918.
There doesn't have to be a no confidence motion - an early election can be called under 2 (1-2) of the FTPA as well as 2 (3-5).
But that would require the Opposition to back such a move. If the polls are not encoraging such support will not be forthcoming.
Surely the Oppsotition are always in favour of an election? They are supposed to be the government in waiting after all.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
Given that Parliament will not reassemble following the party conferences until mid-October , it seems unlikely that any No Confidence Vote could be engineered before the second half of the month. Two weeks would then have to pass before a Dissolution occurs automatically which would imply that Polling Day could be the beginning of December. Would that be feasible or popular? I believe that the last December election was in 1918.
There doesn't have to be a no confidence motion - an early election can be called under 2 (1-2) of the FTPA as well as 2 (3-5).
But that would require the Opposition to back such a move. If the polls are not encoraging such support will not be forthcoming.
Surely the Oppsotition are always in favour of an election? They are supposed to be the government in waiting after all.
Not if they are behind in the polls and fancy their prospects might improve with delay!
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Among other things, because without the Treaty of Lisbon it would be impossible to withdraw frtom the EU. Article 50 was the first to allow it.
And you're telling me that people wouldn't be bothered about unlimited immigration and real or imagined sins of Brussels if only they'd had a vote on whether to have full EU plus Lisbon vs full EU minus Lisbon? Verily, you reside on another, possibly more intellectual, planet.
Whatever the Lisbon treaty did or did not say, Brown was a SHIT for not allowing a vote on it.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Sean - the mood music from the Leave camp is row-back. Are they going to row-back to the status quo? No-one seems to know what to do? This is very serious...
The only one holding his nerve is Nigel Farage.
....I reckon we will see a classic fudge, where Britain hardly moves at all but just gets given a special name - some kind of "associate membership". EEA status with knobs on. We will still be in the single market, subject to the ECJ in economic terms. ..... Apart, of course, from the British voters who want an end to migration. They will howl and vote UKIP, who will gain at the expense of Labour.
It will be the Conservative party that IMHO is at risk from UKIP in those circumstances, as some Conservative voters of the circa 55% will defect to UKIP. My guess is at least 1/3.
Agreed
I'd like to agree, but why would they? The Tories will by then be led by a Brexit leader (or May, who sat on the fence) and will be charged with taking the UK out of Europe.
More likely a smaller proportion of remainer Tories will be looking for a new home, with the LibDems or Greens?
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
Indeed so. But it doesn't mean he can't make a complete arse of himself from time to time.
I was a total ARSE on BRXIT.
Crosby 1 Arse 0
Congratulations to Rod. I didn't see his initial or final numbers. Do you recall them?
He didn't call it either way, but did vote out.
Thanks Dr Fox.
Perhaps we'll consult over a dram or several one day. After all I do seem to have meet most of the British medical profession and their assorted kit in recent years.
I hope my colleagues are treating your ARSE with the care it deserves!
I recall that Rod was reluctant to call it either way because of the paucity of past data to go on, but did suggest that Leave was likely.
Soubry blames EU loss on 'white working class' who have 'probably never even seen a migrant' | Nottingham Post https://t.co/GTaepwbiLL wtf
I was wishing NickP won at GE2015 as I thought there was little policy difference and NickP is a nicer human being.
Nick P is an exceptionally kind,gentle and compassionate human being
If his gvt hadnt done the dirty on Treaty of Lisbon, we would not have had this referendum.
Quite. This vote should never have happened. Because we should have been allowed a vote on prior Treaties, not the hideous binary choice of last week. And Nick P, no doubt a gallant and pleasant gentleman, was a gloating part of the government that denied us a vote on Lisbon
But we are where we are. What the fuck do we do now?
Surely we have to move swiftly to the EEA. Keeping Free Movement for now, and letting the voters decide on limiting immigration at the next election.
Keep in free movement? Are you fucking shitting me. Have you listened at all to why people vote no clear the EU?
I'll give Leavers on here a hint I they think it will be politics as usual with Brian signed up to a union ofbEuropean countries and unlimited migration you are completely radio rental.
It was a referendum about immigration.
I mean don't get me wrong I have 10 euros on UKIP most seats at 500/1 that will benefit me greatly but you people are in cloud cuckoo land if you think the 17million people who voted to LEAVE the European Union will just sit back and take a transparent stitch up without complaint.
That's grim. But it's not like Britain was devoid of right wing nutters before Brexit.
They'll be same ex-BNP types that have had the same protests for years - just that this weekend some of the media will be trying to pin them to the whole Leave campaign.
Yep. We're in for 3 months of awfulnazieconomiccollapsescotlandleaving Britain to try and scare the plebs into accepting, nay BEGGING for this result to be overturned. Demonstrative of how mucky the Augean stables were in the first place.
He really comes across as a conceited little fool in this.
This bit is delicious, when he warns against blaming others rather than oneself - and then blames everyone but himself!
"With hindsight, it is always easy to blame everyone else. The usual reflex is for the finger to be pointed at Brussels. Yet in this case, that is completely wrong: the referendum was called by the British Prime Minister and not by the European Parliament, the Commission or the European Council."
Comments
* of Leave votes
- PCness
- rubbing our faces in diversity
- mass uncontrolled immigration
- devolution
- poisoning public trust over Iraq
- explosion of political biased charities/NGOs
- placemen across quangos
- not standing up to Gordon
- spin and government by press release
And that's just off the top of my head.
Might I suggest Norsefire.
holy god they think they should rule foreigners while also not wanting foreigners to be seen or heard
Before Lisbon there was no procedure as such but withdrawal was possible, in theory and practice (as Greenland showed). If nothing else, we could have (and arguably still can) simply repeal the European Communities Act.
Maybe ARSE can now stand for Annoying Remainers Sulking about Europe?
*However*, that would leave a lot of things in legal limbo, in particular around double taxation.
For this reason, I think Article 50 is the right way to go.
Well stay in the single market, chip in something to the EU budget, get some controls over immigration ( mostl likely de facto through control of the benefits system ) but be guaranteed out of ever closer Union. And Scotland won't know what to do since it only wants the EU menu a la carte itself.
You can see this as an illustration of the limits of FPTP. With an open list system, people could choose not just the party but the preferred candidate within the party, e.g. a Eurosceptic Labour MP.
I've also decided to post on occasion now the temperature is lower post-referendum, especially as we are in a fascinating political period. I'm an Independent councillor - Conservative minded - but currently something of a party political orphan - hence the moniker.
I am very disappointed by the result,my children are "Gutted".
My Son is a Civil Engineer with a major construction Co, and there were many projects and tenders on hold, now on a very long hold. Recession beckons.
The country are now horribly divided, the 2 main parties are divided, the Leavers have no clue what to do now. Boris is now faced with what to do, I think he wanted to be a Valiant loser, and then sweep in to number 10.
I used to be a Boris fan, but he has used this referendum for his own ends,regardless of the damage.
OK mark me down as a sad loser,time will tell who was right.
Just for the record,I am a pensioner, I have 2 degrees, I ran my own business with 100 employees, sold out to a multi national and worked everywhere after the sale.
Finally, I do not know where in future I can vote, neither of the 2 main parties inspire.
London isnt the UK
Perhaps we'll consult over a dram or several one day. After all I do seem to have meet most of the British medical profession and their assorted kit in recent years.
Soubry has lost all credibility in the past few weeks, if the local Conservatives have any sense they'll deselect her before they lose the seat back to Labour.
The government decided that a referendum was not needed. In 2007 when Gordon Brown took over as PM, he allowed rumours of an early snap election to be spread. At this point Cameron offered a "cast iron guarantee that he would hold a referendum on the lisbon treaty.
Unfortunately the election was not called, Brown signed the treaty without a referendum, it was then subsequently ratified across the other member states.
Cameron was in the humiliating position of having to backtrack as once treaty in place, you cant have a referendum on it, just whether or not you leave.
At this point on this forum, you sniggered, you laughed about how Cameron had taken the blame for a treaty that would never have got passed.
That is the source of this referendum.
Congratulations, you're not laughing now as your beloved project is teetering on demise.
This is what many people though they were voting for.
EDIT: Which is why your "free movement, then election" plan is doomed. These people would riot.
Whatever the Lisbon treaty did or did not say, Brown was a SHIT for not allowing a vote on it.
More likely a smaller proportion of remainer Tories will be looking for a new home, with the LibDems or Greens?
I recall that Rod was reluctant to call it either way because of the paucity of past data to go on, but did suggest that Leave was likely.
Best wishes
I'll give Leavers on here a hint I they think it will be politics as usual with Brian signed up to a union ofbEuropean countries and unlimited migration you are completely radio rental.
It was a referendum about immigration.
I mean don't get me wrong I have 10 euros on UKIP most seats at 500/1 that will benefit me greatly but you people are in cloud cuckoo land if you think the 17million people who voted to LEAVE the European Union will just sit back and take a transparent stitch up without complaint.
This bit is delicious, when he warns against blaming others rather than oneself - and then blames everyone but himself!
"With hindsight, it is always easy to blame everyone else. The usual reflex is for the finger to be pointed at Brussels. Yet in this case, that is completely wrong: the referendum was called by the British Prime Minister and not by the European Parliament, the Commission or the European Council."