Labour activist Tom Mauchline can be heard saying: "I had a Polish friend in tears because you couldn't get out the vote in Wales, the North and the Midlands."
Another false narrative being pushed I see....There was no problem getting the vote out, it is just they didn't want to follow the official party line.
I fear that the voters in question may not be following the Labour party line for a very long time to come. See John Harris articles in Guardian.
It's not nice for anyone to be in tears. But I don't see how it's any more awful than someone being in tears having voted for Brexit and lost. That's what happens in a democracy.
I think you're missing the point; the person in the OP isn't in tears because they voted and then lost (not least because they are probably ineligible).
Imagine you're a Brit living in Spain, and you just saw a big vote in Spain won on the back of widespread concern about all the Brit immigrants there, whipped up by inflammatory Anti-British stories in much of the Spanish press. You too would be feeling sad about it, at the very least.
I have imagined that scenario (minus your dramatic flourishes about inflammatory anti EU-migrant sentiment) - caused by the result being decried as bigoted by some of my UK-based EU citizen friends. Yes, I would find it worrisome and unsettling, on a purely practical level. But I wouldn't find the result or those who voted for it in any way objectionable or reprehensible. I really wouldn't. Their democratic right.
Glad to see that Juncker sees the democratic process as 'such crass rabble-rousing'
PS missed this gem 'we will have to have an open and honest discussion in the European Council about how we can ... join forces to counteract populist movements'
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
And they are all wasting their time. Apart from anything else the wording of the petition is 'if the vote share is less than 60%' and so the petition would only have been valid before the vote.
Wonder how many of them are labour party in activists who were foaming at the mouth when the tories were talking about the same threshold on Strike ballots?
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
And when Gordon Brown was crowned by the Labour Party in 2007, he immediately...
Yes, he was wrong.
It would be even more wrong for the next prime minister, who would only derive their legitimacy from the tory selectorate, to attempt to write huge chunks of our new constitution and attempt to negotiate on britains behalf.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
Promising an election and hence instant job insecurity is a funny way of trying to win support from MPs?
Another sad consequence of all this is that it's allowed the anglophobes to play up their anti-English stereotype. You can sense their gleeful sense of vindication: 'See, we were right about that lot all along.' And, of course, there's very little we can say.
They were right all along...
Now the English are saying that the EU is anti-democratic because it insists on the UK government recognising the outcome of the referendum, while the UK government is ritually pretending that it didn't hear.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
The country has voted to tear up our constitutional, diplomatic and trading agreements.
Whoever the tory party membership select as their man would be insane not to go to the country immediately.
The next PM will be the one who can command a majority in the HoC. That's the way it works. It is why we had to put up with that idiot Brown for 2 years. As I was saying before the referendum we might effectively have minority government but it will be the job of the next leader to try and keep the party and government together.
But it's very, very risky. They need a 6% lead minimum again for a bare majority - and a bit more if the Lib Dens recover even a little.
Sod all chance of a coalition either.
Guess it depends on the polling in the honeymoon period. If Johnson, and he strikes the right conciliatory tone, might work. He's basically got an open goal against Corbyn, after all.
Not only was the campaign fought, and won, on the platform of anti-immigration, the win has given license to those who are anti-immigrant.
Awesome
We are where we are.
This sort of garbage needs to be fallen on like a ton of bricks.
When I was growing up "Poles" stood by us in WWII (which is more than we did for them) - so the government needs to quickly and unequivocally put their minds at ease.
"At the same time it is hardly surprising. If someone complains about Europe from Monday to Saturday then nobody is going to believe him on Sunday when he says he is a convinced European."
Not only was the campaign fought, and won, on the platform of anti-immigration, the win has given license to those who are anti-immigrant.
Awesome
We are where we are.
This sort of garbage needs to be fallen on like a ton of bricks.
When I was growing up "Poles" stood by us in WWII (which is more than we did for them) - so the government needs to quickly and unequivocally put their minds at ease.
Poland is a wonderful, heroic, tragic country, and its people are as pro-British as they come. Any kickback from the EUref on them would be sad indeed.
On topic: My very grateful thanks to everyone who kept the site running through the campaign and during the referendum day/night. I have no TV and PB is my go-to source of news & entertainment. It was clear that @AndyJS's spreadsheet was worth its weight in gold (perhaps literally, to those who bet as events unfold).
I'm really grateful, too to all those contributors (above & below the line) who helped me to make up my mind on what issues were important to me. Very often I find that remarks I disagree with help a lot because they impel me to think through why I disagree.
And finally, thanks to the site & you all for being there whilst I've been ill & recovering (was mumps). A happy coincidence that there was an event of national importance in the offing. I'm more or less recovered now so will almost certainly be posting less after the weekend.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
But it's very, very risky.
They need a 6% lead minimum again for a bare majority - and a bit more if the Lib Dens recover even a little.
Worth remembering the DUP supported Brexit - that means the 8 DUP MPs are bound to support a Brexit Con Government. That increases the effective Con Majority to 32 (ie 12 official + 4 SF missing + 16 DUP)
After Harold Wilson fell ill, Jim Callaghan was a Labour PM for nearly three years 1976-1979 without a majority at all, he did a deal with the Liberals and just passed whatever legislation he could get away with. Brexit has been approved by the MPs bosses - the electorate, so they can't legitimately block it.
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
But it's very, very risky.
They need a 6% lead minimum again for a bare majority - and a bit more if the Lib Dens recover even a little.
Worth remembering the DUP supported Brexit - that means the 8 DUP MPs are bound to support a Brexit Con Government. That increases the effective Con Majority to 32 (ie 12 official + 4 SF missing + 16 DUP)
After Harold Wilson fell ill, Jim Callaghan was a Labour PM for nearly three years 1976-1979 without a majority at all, he did a deal with the Liberals and just passed whatever legislation he could get away with. Brexit has been approved by the MPs bosses - the electorate, so they can't legitimately block it.
We are probably at peak Boris right now, he should be brave and go for it.
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
Once in a generation kind of thing They'll have to be patient.
Of course the Government could stick 2 fingers up at them and apply the rules on any FUTURE Join/ Stay out referendum.
As I said before - it is the liberal left blowing a hissy fit because they are emotionally immature and incapable of accepting adversity.
I wonder how many insulting words it's possible to get into a sentence? I've always thought that ostentatious literal interpretation of what someone is saying while contemptuously ignoring their meaning is immature.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
Funnily enough, our local Chinese takeaway owner killed his wife and buried her under the patio. His lack of creativity did for him in the end.
Blimey! It does have to be about the worst place to leave a body, as it is one place the police always look, but as GeoffM said if your plans went wrong, of if you didn't plan it at all, you've got to do something with the body.
I was involved for the crown in the prosecution of a murder in Aberdeen a few years ago. The defence was that the accused had come back to the flat and found his partner dead. In a slightly surprising fit of tidiness he buried the body at the local cemetery.
The AD cross examined him at tedious length about everything he had done that day and then asked, "so when did you dig the hole?" The accused's face just went completely slack and some of the jury laughed. He will still be inside.
Glad to see that Juncker sees the democratic process as 'such crass rabble-rousing'
PS missed this gem 'we will have to have an open and honest discussion in the European Council about how we can ... join forces to counteract populist movements'
I read somewhere (sorry, no link) only just before the referendum that Mr Juncker was telling national representatives on EU councils & the like that they must stop being so focussed on their national concerns and give more weight to the EU project.
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
I know
What's hilarious is the Brexiteers desperately trying to erase it !
"We didn't campaign on immigration"
Priceless
I didn't support Leave for the issue of immigration, though I will say that immigration was the issue that put it over the top.
The Leave coalition is quite a diverse one, lefty leavers were for Leave as a vote against globalization, centrist leavers supported Leave as a vote for democracy, right leavers supported Leave as a vote against mass immigration.
That's why you need to include in the negotiation Labour leavers and Farage in order to represent all the sides, and make sure that they sign the agreement so that no one moans afterwards.
We also desperately need non-politicians and non-diplomats involved in the negotiations - people who know how to and have a successful track record as negotiators. From business, industry, finance - I don't care. But please don't leave the negotiations to neophytes.
That sounds almost like Trump.
"We don't have our best and our brightest negotiating for us. We have a bunch of losers, we have a bunch of political hacks. We have diplomats...
"I know the smartest guys on Wall Street. I know our best negotiators. I know the overrated guys, the underrated guys, the guys that nobody ever heard of that are killers, that are great. We gotta use those people...
"Guys like Jack Welch. I like guys like Henry Kravis. I'd love to bring my friend Carl Icahn. I mean, we have people that are great..."
Not only was the campaign fought, and won, on the platform of anti-immigration, the win has given license to those who are anti-immigrant.
Awesome
We are where we are.
This sort of garbage needs to be fallen on like a ton of bricks.
When I was growing up "Poles" stood by us in WWII (which is more than we did for them) - so the government needs to quickly and unequivocally put their minds at ease.
Poland is a wonderful, heroic, tragic country, and its people are as pro-British as they come. Any kickback from the EUref on them would be sad indeed.
I've seen the graves at Arnhem, Poland and Britain have a long and noble history.
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
Afternoon all. No chance of catching up on all the comments, there's literally several thousand again since last night.
A massive Well Done to Mike Smithson, Robert, TSE, David Herdson (good last thead BTW), Alastair Meeks, Cyclefree, Roger, Nick Palmer, AndyJS (for THAT spreadsheet!), all other other contributors, leader writers and moderators, on what has been the absolute go-to site for politics (and news in general) through an amazing period in the history of the UK.
Watching from abroad, it has been enlightening to see so many intelligent opinions, polite arguments (when compared to the official campaigns anyway) and especially betting tips, which I hope have made this referendum profitable for all even if their desired outcome didn't materialise.
Well deserved donation on the way later in the week Mike, for what is truly one of the best sites on the web, well done all!
PS. The next few months have the potential to be as dramatic as the last few!
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
Afternoon all. No chance of catching up on all the comments, there's literally several thousand again since last night.
A massive Well Done to Mike Smithson, Robert, TSE, David Herdson (good last thead BTW), Alastair Meeks, Cyclefree, Roger, Nick Palmer, AndyJS (for THAT spreadsheet!), all other other contributors, leader writers and moderators, on what has been the absolute go-to site for politics (and news in general) through an amazing period in the history of the UK.
Watching from abroad, it has been enlightening to see so many intelligent opinions, polite arguments (when compared to the official campaigns anyway) and especially betting tips, which I hope have made this referendum profitable for all even if their desired outcome didn't materialise.
Well deserved donation on the way later in the week Mike, for what is truly one of the best sites on the web, well done all!
PS. The next few months have the potential to be as dramatic as the last few!
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
Not only was the campaign fought, and won, on the platform of anti-immigration, the win has given license to those who are anti-immigrant.
Awesome
We are where we are.
This sort of garbage needs to be fallen on like a ton of bricks.
When I was growing up "Poles" stood by us in WWII (which is more than we did for them) - so the government needs to quickly and unequivocally put their minds at ease.
Yes. I always find it poignant that Ypres, where so many British and Commonwealth soldiers were killed in the Great War and where the townsfolk play the last post every evening, was liberated in the Second World War by the free Poles. The playing of the last post was resumed that very day.
Overall, I cleared a decent profit on the election - once the cash has made it back to my account, I'll be sending a donation to both the Jo Cox fund & the site.
Thanks to Mike & the contributors/people behind the scenes who make PB work.
WHY OH WHY did you let the PEOPLE CHOOSE? - from the land of the free no less
Thanks Lucky. Perhaps Rogoff would look in his own backyard. US Presidential elections (Year; turnout - percent of eligible voters; winner's percentage of vote:
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
I thought Belgium was an automatic Veto of Scotland joining the EU! Another Project Fear is being undone.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
I disagree. The Tory majority is too small to allow for effective government and its mandate in any case belongs to the outgoing incumbent. The new leader will need his (or her) own mandate for very changed circumstances. And, incidentally, it would flush out possible rebels.
But it's very, very risky.
They need a 6% lead minimum again for a bare majority - and a bit more if the Lib Dens recover even a little.
Worth remembering the DUP supported Brexit - that means the 8 DUP MPs are bound to support a Brexit Con Government. That increases the effective Con Majority to 32 (ie 12 official + 4 SF missing + 16 DUP)
After Harold Wilson fell ill, Jim Callaghan was a Labour PM for nearly three years 1976-1979 without a majority at all, he did a deal with the Liberals and just passed whatever legislation he could get away with. Brexit has been approved by the MPs bosses - the electorate, so they can't legitimately block it.
We are probably at peak Boris right now, he should be brave and go for it.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
And when Gordon Brown was crowned by the Labour Party in 2007, he immediately...
Yes, he was wrong.
It would be even more wrong for the next prime minister, who would only derive their legitimacy from the tory selectorate, to attempt to write huge chunks of our new constitution and attempt to negotiate on britains behalf.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
Nightmare.
We've finally escaped the EU, and Boris wants to risk it all in a General Election? Please no.
Afternoon all. No chance of catching up on all the comments, there's literally several thousand again since last night.
A massive Well Done to Mike Smithson, Robert, TSE, David Herdson (good last thead BTW), Alastair Meeks, Cyclefree, Roger, Nick Palmer, AndyJS (for THAT spreadsheet!), all other other contributors, leader writers and moderators, on what has been the absolute go-to site for politics (and news in general) through an amazing period in the history of the UK.
Watching from abroad, it has been enlightening to see so many intelligent opinions, polite arguments (when compared to the official campaigns anyway) and especially betting tips, which I hope have made this referendum profitable for all even if their desired outcome didn't materialise.
Well deserved donation on the way later in the week Mike, for what is truly one of the best sites on the web, well done all!
PS. The next few months have the potential to be as dramatic as the last few!
Me too.
Excellent comments. Will be glued to the site as the Tories choose a leader.
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
I thought Belgium was an automatic Veto of Scotland joining the EU! Another Project Fear is being undone.
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
The country has voted to tear up our constitutional, diplomatic and trading agreements.
Whoever the tory party membership select as their man would be insane not to go to the country immediately.
The next PM will be the one who can command a majority in the HoC. That's the way it works. It is why we had to put up with that idiot Brown for 2 years. As I was saying before the referendum we might effectively have minority government but it will be the job of the next leader to try and keep the party and government together.
Yes, blocking the vote would be momentously silly and would only lead to President Farage at the next general election. Things are bad enough as it is.
@GuyVerhofstadt: It's wrong that Scotland might be taken out of EU, when it voted to stay. Happy to discuss w. @NicolaSturgeon next time she's in Bxl. #EUref
I thought Belgium was an automatic Veto of Scotland joining the EU! Another Project Fear is being undone.
Unless you've got a time machine and can go back eight years to before he resigned as Prime Minister, it won't make any difference.
I was involved for the crown in the prosecution of a murder in Aberdeen a few years ago. The defence was that the accused had come back to the flat and found his partner dead. In a slightly surprising fit of tidiness he buried the body at the local cemetery.
The AD cross examined him at tedious length about everything he had done that day and then asked, "so when did you dig the hole?" The accused's face just went completely slack and some of the jury laughed. He will still be inside.
Very good. I read a book about bodysnatchers and they frequently made implausible claims about finding bodies, or being unaware a body was on the cart they were pulling. It was a quite lucrative trade, but they weren't exactly master criminals.
"But he's right - the referendum was advisory and there should be a vote in the Commons on how the Government should respond to it."
Stop it, my sides are hurting. For a moment, I thought you meant it.
But this is exactly the position of those who say David Cameron must never inform the European Council that the UK is going to leave the EU under Article 50!
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
And when Gordon Brown was crowned by the Labour Party in 2007, he immediately...
Yes, he was wrong.
It would be even more wrong for the next prime minister, who would only derive their legitimacy from the tory selectorate, to attempt to write huge chunks of our new constitution and attempt to negotiate on britains behalf.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
Nightmare.
We've finally escaped the EU, and Boris wants to risk it all in a General Election? Please no.
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
Once in a generation kind of thing They'll have to be patient.
Of course the Government could stick 2 fingers up at them and apply the rules on any FUTURE Join/ Stay out referendum.
As I said before - it is the liberal left blowing a hissy fit because they are emotionally immature and incapable of accepting adversity.
I wonder how many insulting words it's possible to get into a sentence? I've always thought that ostentatious literal interpretation of what someone is saying while contemptuously ignoring their meaning is immature.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
I am #1824150. What happens when we reach 5 million.
How is Article 50 invoked ? Does it require a Parliamentary vote ? What happens if it is not passed ?
"At the same time it is hardly surprising. If someone complains about Europe from Monday to Saturday then nobody is going to believe him on Sunday when he says he is a convinced European."
Great interview - his ability to be elegantly nasty in silky language is exceptional. Anyone expecting an easy ride in the negotiations should read it.
What on earth is Boris Johnson playing at, with the idea of a general election? Is there a US angle here? The "Trump and Johnson in the autumn" show? Things are volatile and the message given by the British people in a general election could be unambiguously pro-Remain. (Good if so.)
If you think the referendum was not advisory but decisive, you are an EU anti-democrat! If you think the referendum was not decisive but advisory, you are a REMAIN anti-democrat!
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
And when Gordon Brown was crowned by the Labour Party in 2007, he immediately...
Yes, he was wrong.
It would be even more wrong for the next prime minister, who would only derive their legitimacy from the tory selectorate, to attempt to write huge chunks of our new constitution and attempt to negotiate on britains behalf.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
Nightmare.
We've finally escaped the EU, and Boris wants to risk it all in a General Election? Please no.
He would invoke Article 50 first, obviously.
"A Boris spokesman says this isn't right. "Ignore" they say."
Nick Watt talked last night about No.10 being a like doughnut and I don't think he meant there's jam in the middle. Perhaps instead of leaving the EU we've just decided to dissolve ourselves and no longer have a government.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
It's not an obviously persuasive argument (so it may in fact be what he really thinks, which would make a change). Accidents happen with apparently sure-thing votes, as we have just seen, so "I will put your job at risk now instead of four years hence" lacks appeal.
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
Once in a generation kind of thing They'll have to be patient.
Of course the Government could stick 2 fingers up at them and apply the rules on any FUTURE Join/ Stay out referendum.
As I said before - it is the liberal left blowing a hissy fit because they are emotionally immature and incapable of accepting adversity.
I wonder how many insulting words it's possible to get into a sentence? I've always thought that ostentatious literal interpretation of what someone is saying while contemptuously ignoring their meaning is immature.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
I am #1824150. What happens when we reach 5 million.
How is Article 50 invoked ? Does it require a Parliamentary vote ? What happens if it is not passed ?
Its a formal letter from the UK PM to the EU Council. (I think)
We all backed a 2016 election at 16/1 months ago, I trust.
Those were indeed good odds but I think it is very unlikely that the new leader of the Tories will want an election. What if there were some buyers remorse in reality as opposed to the minds of the BBC and the far from united Tories faced a Labour party committed to remaining in? Just not worth the risk.
The new prime minister, selected by a few tens of thousands of elderly tory members in the shires, will have very little democratic legitimacy.
As Nate silver (or one of his colleagues) said on his podcast, it would be like the republican primary voters of Iowa selecting the next POTUS.
And when Gordon Brown was crowned by the Labour Party in 2007, he immediately...
Yes, he was wrong.
It would be even more wrong for the next prime minister, who would only derive their legitimacy from the tory selectorate, to attempt to write huge chunks of our new constitution and attempt to negotiate on britains behalf.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
Nightmare.
We've finally escaped the EU, and Boris wants to risk it all in a General Election? Please no.
He would invoke Article 50 first, obviously.
"A Boris spokesman says this isn't right. "Ignore" they say."
Phew. I think.
Vote Leadsom!
Boris has proved to be completely duplicitous for reasons of personal ambition. I hope he never becomes PM
"At the same time it is hardly surprising. If someone complains about Europe from Monday to Saturday then nobody is going to believe him on Sunday when he says he is a convinced European."
Great interview - his ability to be elegantly nasty in silky language is exceptional. Anyone expecting an easy ride in the negotiations should read it.
Don't worry ! The Leavers assured us the EU will have no option but to grant us the Single Market.
@PCollinsTimes: When you do think the first "buyer's remorse" opinion poll will be? I give it a week and I think it could be large.
I am shown three doors. Behind one is something helpful in making money on political betting, behind the other two are things inaccurate and discredited, old fashioned and derided.
I choose door one.
The host opens door three to reveal an opinion poll
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
Once in a generation kind of thing They'll have to be patient.
Of course the Government could stick 2 fingers up at them and apply the rules on any FUTURE Join/ Stay out referendum.
As I said before - it is the liberal left blowing a hissy fit because they are emotionally immature and incapable of accepting adversity.
I wonder how many insulting words it's possible to get into a sentence? I've always thought that ostentatious literal interpretation of what someone is saying while contemptuously ignoring their meaning is immature.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
"But this is exactly the position of those who say David Cameron must never inform the European Council that the UK is going to leave the EU under Article 50"
The only people who are saying "never" are a few demented Remainers. The exact timing of the signalling is down to the UK.
"But he's right - the referendum was advisory and there should be a vote in the Commons on how the Government should respond to it."
Stop it, my sides are hurting. For a moment, I thought you meant it.
But this is exactly the position of those who say David Cameron must never inform the European Council that the UK is going to leave the EU under Article 50!
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
It's not an obviously persuasive argument (so it may in fact be what he really thinks, which would make a change). Accidents happen with apparently sure-thing votes, as we have just seen, so "I will put your job at risk now instead of four years hence" lacks appeal.
"But this is exactly the position of those who say David Cameron must never inform the European Council that the UK is going to leave the EU under Article 50"
The only people who are saying "never" are a few demented Remainers. The exact timing of the signalling is down to the UK.
The only reason this is even an issue — it's not really an issue, it's Remainers being in a huff — is because Cameron stupidly said he'd press the red button immediately. Anyone with half a brain can figure out we need to get our ducks in a row first.
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
Once in a generation kind of thing They'll have to be patient.
Of course the Government could stick 2 fingers up at them and apply the rules on any FUTURE Join/ Stay out referendum.
As I said before - it is the liberal left blowing a hissy fit because they are emotionally immature and incapable of accepting adversity.
I wonder how many insulting words it's possible to get into a sentence? I've always thought that ostentatious literal interpretation of what someone is saying while contemptuously ignoring their meaning is immature.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
I wonder if it'll get to 16,141,241
That will be hilarious, when more people sign a petition than ACTUALLY BLOODY VOTED!!!!!
Actual, real world democracy, my young friends, is still done the old fashioned way.
Just before the Redbridge/Newham discussion fades completely, I met a British Asian guy from Newham at a Vote Leave event who said he and his whole family were planning to leave and head to Havering because Newham isn't British anymore.
Newham was actually less REMAIN (53%) than Redbridge (54%).
Redbridge 54% surprised me must say.
I wasn't TBF, I was one of the 46%, natch, but its area mostly consists of Ilford North and Ilford South, which are Labour.
But so are Barking and Dagenham but that was 62% Leave and even Newham was 47% Leave.
Now the Asian population in Redbridge is more affluent than that in Newham - could that have made them more Remain ?
Also would the Conservative voters in the Wanstead and Woodford areas have been more affluent and Remain than those in Havering and Epping ?
I assume that Hainault was strongly Leave being mostly wwc.
I don't think you'll find a huge Lab v Tory difference in the Referendum within London itself - it will be very interesting to see the post-vote polling breakdowns. Redbridge has far more middle class wards (and graduates etc) than Newham, which is where its more-remain leaning margin will have come from.
Just before the Redbridge/Newham discussion fades completely, I met a British Asian guy from Newham at a Vote Leave event who said he and his whole family were planning to leave and head to Havering because Newham isn't British anymore.
Havering? My mum and dad aren't considering that quite yet
If you think the referendum was not advisory but decisive, you are an EU anti-democrat! If you think the referendum was not decisive but advisory, you are a REMAIN anti-democrat!
1.6 million people have now signed the petition for another EU referendum. If you keep refreshing the page, you can see just how fast the number of signatories is rising.
Once in a generation kind of thing They'll have to be patient.
Of course the Government could stick 2 fingers up at them and apply the rules on any FUTURE Join/ Stay out referendum.
As I said before - it is the liberal left blowing a hissy fit because they are emotionally immature and incapable of accepting adversity.
I wonder how many insulting words it's possible to get into a sentence? I've always thought that ostentatious literal interpretation of what someone is saying while contemptuously ignoring their meaning is immature.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
I wonder if it'll get to 16,141,241
I wouldn't be surprised if it got past that. Has anybody dipped into the raw data?
I think you live in Scotland and you were a Brexit supporter? Are you now advocating a deal that is close to membership of the EU? Or are you simply saying that that is what Sturgeon should hope for to placate her supporters.
As a Brexiteer how would you feel if the result leads to Scottish independence which Scotland can't afford?
Sam Coates TimesVerified account @SamCoatesTimes Tory MP contacted by Boris campaign says they r telling MPs he wd go for an immediate general election if he wins to get fresh mandate.
Yeh, right, and we all believe what campaigns tell MPs when they are trying to get signatures, don't we?
It's not an obviously persuasive argument (so it may in fact be what he really thinks, which would make a change). Accidents happen with apparently sure-thing votes, as we have just seen, so "I will put your job at risk now instead of four years hence" lacks appeal.
I can see that, but if BoJo was planning to go with EFTA then he may well need a mandate to do so.
If you think the referendum was not advisory but decisive, you are an EU anti-democrat! If you think the referendum was not decisive but advisory, you are a REMAIN anti-democrat!
Nick Watt talked last night about No.10 being a like doughnut and I don't think he meant there's jam in the middle. Perhaps instead of leaving the EU we've just decided to dissolve ourselves and no longer have a government.
Everything will start happening on Monday.
Mind you, it's surpriging we've not had **any** reports for whats going on Downing St this weekend, even if it's just to say "the modd is grim".
Maybe they've taken all the phones off the hook, disconnected th1 internet, shut the curtains and locked the doors?
Comments
PS missed this gem 'we will have to have an open and honest discussion in the European Council about how we can ... join forces to counteract populist movements'
Now the English are saying that the EU is anti-democratic because it insists on the UK government recognising the outcome of the referendum, while the UK government is ritually pretending that it didn't hear.
Guess it depends on the polling in the honeymoon period. If Johnson, and he strikes the right conciliatory tone, might work. He's basically got an open goal against Corbyn, after all.
This sort of garbage needs to be fallen on like a ton of bricks.
When I was growing up "Poles" stood by us in WWII (which is more than we did for them) - so the government needs to quickly and unequivocally put their minds at ease.
Brexit has been approved by the MPs bosses - the electorate, so they can't legitimately block it.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/brexit-democratic-failure-for-uk-by-kenneth-rogoff-2016-06
WHY OH WHY did you let the PEOPLE CHOOSE? - from the land of the free no less
Laughable, it played no role because even Dave at his best couldn't sell something so insubstantial.
"Incapable of accepting adversity"? What's wrong with not accepting adversity? When the going gets tough, the tough get going - they don't just "accept" the position. This isn't boarding school.
The number of signatures on the petition is about to go over 1.8 million.
The AD cross examined him at tedious length about everything he had done that day and then asked, "so when did you dig the hole?" The accused's face just went completely slack and some of the jury laughed. He will still be inside.
"We don't have our best and our brightest negotiating for us. We have a bunch of losers, we have a bunch of political hacks. We have diplomats...
"I know the smartest guys on Wall Street. I know our best negotiators. I know the overrated guys, the underrated guys, the guys that nobody ever heard of that are killers, that are great. We gotta use those people...
"Guys like Jack Welch. I like guys like Henry Kravis. I'd love to bring my friend Carl Icahn. I mean, we have people that are great..."
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/746730590708326401
A massive Well Done
Watching from abroad, it has been enlightening to see so many intelligent opinions, polite arguments (when compared to the official campaigns anyway) and especially betting tips, which I hope have made this referendum profitable for all even if their desired outcome didn't materialise.
Well deserved donation on the way later in the week Mike, for what is truly one of the best sites on the web, well done all!
PS. The next few months have the potential to be as dramatic as the last few!
So having lost Scotland, he now wants Labour to lose England.
Fascinating.
Thanks to Mike & the contributors/people behind the scenes who make PB work.
2000 54.2%; 47.87%
2004 60.4%; 50.73%
2008 62.3%; 52.93%
2012 57.5%; 51.06%
Does Rogoff challenge the legitimacy of Obama to preside? Perhaps he should run those numbers...
http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/outraged-tottenham-hotspur-fans-demand-rematch-of-may-newcastle-game-after-narrow-defeat/
We've finally escaped the EU, and Boris wants to risk it all in a General Election? Please no.
"But he's right - the referendum was advisory and there should be a vote in the Commons on how the Government should respond to it."
Stop it, my sides are hurting. For a moment, I thought you meant it.
How is Article 50 invoked ? Does it require a Parliamentary vote ? What happens if it is not passed ?
Is there a US angle here? The "Trump and Johnson in the autumn" show?
Things are volatile and the message given by the British people in a general election could be unambiguously pro-Remain. (Good if so.)
If you think the referendum was not decisive but advisory, you are a REMAIN anti-democrat!
Bloody weird country.
Phew. I think.
Vote Leadsom!
Single Market, Free movement of labour [ as opposed to people ]. I don't think the EU are in a mood to accept even that.
Parliament could also just withdraw unilaterally by repealing the relevant acts.
I hope he never becomes PM
I choose door one.
The host opens door three to reveal an opinion poll
Do I switch?
The only people who are saying "never" are a few demented Remainers. The exact timing of the signalling is down to the UK.
Actual, real world democracy, my young friends, is still done the old fashioned way.
https://next.ft.com/content/5b82031e-1056-31e1-8e0e-4e91774e27f1
If you think it was decisive mathematically, you're wrong 51.9 to 48.1 is only 3.8 apart. If it had been the other way round Farage would have that as 'unfinished business:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12
If you think it was decisive politically, I would say you are right.
"signatures_by_country"
{"name":"Australia","code":"AU","signature_count":6884},
{"name":"Belgium","code":"BE","signature_count":1315},
{"name":"British Antarctic Territory","code":"BAT","signature_count":2},
{"name":"Canada","code":"CA","signature_count":2343},
{"name":"France","code":"FR","signature_count":11737},
{"name":"Germany","code":"DE","signature_count":4325},
{"name":"Gibraltar","code":"GI","signature_count":2477},
{"name":"Hong Kong","code":"HK","signature_count":1337},
{"name":"Ireland","code":"IE","signature_count":1825},
{"name":"United States","code":"US","signature_count":6364}
Wow.
For David L.
I think you live in Scotland and you were a Brexit supporter? Are you now advocating a deal that is close to membership of the EU? Or are you simply saying that that is what Sturgeon should hope for to placate her supporters.
As a Brexiteer how would you feel if the result leads to Scottish independence which Scotland can't afford?
Mind you, it's surpriging we've not had **any** reports for whats going on Downing St this weekend, even if it's just to say "the modd is grim".
Maybe they've taken all the phones off the hook, disconnected th1 internet, shut the curtains and locked the doors?