Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, if you mean in terms of securing a referendum, I think that's right.

But the key players have been Gove, Boris and Leadsom. Boris gave Leave much needed impetus, Gove performed well at the early Sky Q&A, and Leadsom (apparently) was rather good at the six-way debate.

Gisela Stuart's also been a significant asset for Leave.

Jonathan said:

If Leave wins this is Farages victory more than any other.

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.

To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.

But that's not the point

There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.

And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.

And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....

Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.

Dave egged on murder and ethnic cleansing?

Do elucidate.....

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

If you turn this graph upside down, it shows tinfoil sales...

@ianmulheirn: IMF on impact of Brexit. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist it's time to stop saying 'Remain is exaggerating' https://t.co/qx88Ih0i0W

You don't understand much about economics, do you?

That graph is designed to make you think the economy will shrink. But it is actually a reduction in growth over a *base* scenario, which in-and-of itself has some questionable assumptions.

Under its "limited" scenario - in which Britain stayed in the EEA - the IMF forecast growth would slip from 2.2% to 1.4% next year. Significantly smaller drop than the Treasury forecast.

Ooooh. Scary.

Under its ‘adverse scenario’, economic growth will slow to 1.1 per cent this year. Then GDP shrinks by 0.8 per cent in 2017 before growing by just 0.6 per cent in 2018 and 1.7 per cent in 2019.

Oh my word. How would we survive?

But, most questionably, if we vote Remain, the IMF forecasts growth of 2.2 per cent next year, 2.2 per cent in 2018 and 2.1 per cent in 2019.

In other words, it assumes the EU will be all fine and dandy, and smelling of roses. Which it won't be. A technical recession in the eurozone is very likely over the next few years.

Vote Leave. Take Control.

So more cuts and more tax rises.

Will that be worth it? Depends on the deal we end up with.

It will involve pushing out the baseline of the austerity programme by 2-3 years, which will probably happen even if we Remain. So, no.

Is it worth it?

For self-governance, absolutely yes.

I appreciate others might calculate differently.

Morris_Dancer said:

Germany accuses NATO of warmongering:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36566422

TheScreamingEagles said:

Tykejohnno said:

twitter.com/suttonnick/status/743896903700582400

As George Eaton says

Police said far-right links were "priority line of inquiry". The Mail decides otherwise.

Sandpit said:

The Remainers are all up early and on message with "Nigel Farage's Little England" this morning.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

If you turn this graph upside down, it shows tinfoil sales...

@ianmulheirn: IMF on impact of Brexit. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist it's time to stop saying 'Remain is exaggerating' https://t.co/qx88Ih0i0W

You don't understand much about economics, do you?

That graph is designed to make you think the economy will shrink. But it is actually a reduction in growth over a *base* scenario, which in-and-of itself has some questionable assumptions.

Under its "limited" scenario - in which Britain stayed in the EEA - the IMF forecast growth would slip from 2.2% to 1.4% next year. Significantly smaller drop than the Treasury forecast.

Ooooh. Scary.

Under its ‘adverse scenario’, economic growth will slow to 1.1 per cent this year. Then GDP shrinks by 0.8 per cent in 2017 before growing by just 0.6 per cent in 2018 and 1.7 per cent in 2019.

Oh my word. How would we survive?

But, most questionably, if we vote Remain, the IMF forecasts growth of 2.2 per cent next year, 2.2 per cent in 2018 and 2.1 per cent in 2019.

In other words, it assumes the EU will be all fine and dandy, and smelling of roses. Which it won't be. A technical recession in the eurozone is very likely over the next few years.

Vote Leave. Take Control.

So more cuts and more tax rises.

Will that be worth it? Depends on the deal we end up with.

It will involve pushing out the baseline of the austerity programme by 2-3 years, which will probably happen even if we Remain. So, no.

Is it worth it?

For self-governance, absolutely yes.

I appreciate others might calculate differently.

So the entire austerity programme which Tory Leave ministers and MPs and many supporters have told us is unavoidable, the one that has done so much harm to working class people, turns out to be completely flexible and, therefore, completely avoidable.

Cyclefree said:

SouthamObserver said:

Cyclefree said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.

There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?

What do we have in common?

Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.

I think Remainers care about exactly the same things. They just have different views on them. I see this referendum, for example, as a democratic exercise in a sovereign country. But day to day, I believe it's in our best interests to cede sovereignty in certain areas. I understand that you think differently.

I am a great believer in sharing power to achieve things which can best be done collectively. I think the EU has gone beyond that alas. But it is a very finely balanced decision in my view. It is less - for me anyway - about the position now, with which I could just about live and more about where the EU is going and whether I think Britain should go there too.

BTW judging by your posts, I think we must have been living in Spain at around the same time. Were you in Barcelona?

Lleida. Or Lerida as it was then.

Ah. I was in Barcelona. Great times. A city I love.

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.

To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.

But that's not the point

There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.

And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.

And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....

Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.

Dave egged on murder and ethnic cleansing?

Do elucidate.....

THEY are refusing to share the platform with Cameron .

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

If you turn this graph upside down, it shows tinfoil sales...

@ianmulheirn: IMF on impact of Brexit. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist it's time to stop saying 'Remain is exaggerating' https://t.co/qx88Ih0i0W

You don't understand much about economics, do you?

That graph is designed to make you think the economy will shrink. But it is actually a reduction in growth over a *base* scenario, which in-and-of itself has some questionable assumptions.

Under its "limited" scenario - in which Britain stayed in the EEA - the IMF forecast growth would slip from 2.2% to 1.4% next year. Significantly smaller drop than the Treasury forecast.

Ooooh. Scary.

Under its ‘adverse scenario’, economic growth will slow to 1.1 per cent this year. Then GDP shrinks by 0.8 per cent in 2017 before growing by just 0.6 per cent in 2018 and 1.7 per cent in 2019.

Oh my word. How would we survive?

But, most questionably, if we vote Remain, the IMF forecasts growth of 2.2 per cent next year, 2.2 per cent in 2018 and 2.1 per cent in 2019.

In other words, it assumes the EU will be all fine and dandy, and smelling of roses. Which it won't be. A technical recession in the eurozone is very likely over the next few years.

Vote Leave. Take Control.

So more cuts and more tax rises.

Will that be worth it? Depends on the deal we end up with.

It will involve pushing out the baseline of the austerity programme by 2-3 years, which will probably happen even if we Remain. So, no.

Is it worth it?

For self-governance, absolutely yes.

I appreciate others might calculate differently.

So the entire austerity programme which Tory Leave ministers and MPs and many supporters have told us is unavoidable, the one that has done so much harm to working class people, turns out to be completely flexible and, therefore, completely avoidable.

That nice Mme Lagarde who you praise so highly keeps warning us we need to do more fiscal consolidation. So does the EU commission.

While complaining about austerity you're actually voting for more of it faster.

tyson said:

SeanT said:

BenedictWhite said:

Tykejohnno said:

https://twitter.com/MrPaulDuane/status/743884230053232640

Might be him, might not be him. (Actually it doesn't look a great deal like him)

I think it's hm. And I think this will tilt a very finely balanced referendum to REMAIN

Honestiy, as a thriller writer, you couldn't get away with this in fiction

You cannot imagine how this is being played behind the scenes.

I don't mean to be callous but what a great thriller

a defenceless, beautiful woman brutally, horrifically murdered leaving a husband, and young children.... she a crusader of social justice.......the backdrop, days before a political vote that could change the course of history....the culprit linked to the extreme right and Nazism....a PM fighting for his political survival, his foes, desperate to avoid being dragged down into the mire with victory so close.......

Scott_P said:

Here is Gove in the Sky debate making his "positive case"

"the NHS ... faces increasing demand because we have uncontrolled free movement from the the European Union here.

...

The EU has a plan to allow in 5 new countries, 88 million people.

...

Our NHS will come under additional strain. Our NHS will be stronger is we leave the EU"

Will any of the Leavers claim that is a positive case, as opposed to the xenophobic dogwhistle it so clearly is?

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

If you turn this graph upside down, it shows tinfoil sales...

@ianmulheirn: IMF on impact of Brexit. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist it's time to stop saying 'Remain is exaggerating' https://t.co/qx88Ih0i0W

You don't understand much about economics, do you?

That graph is designed to make you think the economy will shrink. But it is actually a reduction in growth over a *base* scenario, which in-and-of itself has some questionable assumptions.

Under its "limited" scenario - in which Britain stayed in the EEA - the IMF forecast growth would slip from 2.2% to 1.4% next year. Significantly smaller drop than the Treasury forecast.

Ooooh. Scary.

Under its ‘adverse scenario’, economic growth will slow to 1.1 per cent this year. Then GDP shrinks by 0.8 per cent in 2017 before growing by just 0.6 per cent in 2018 and 1.7 per cent in 2019.

Oh my word. How would we survive?

But, most questionably, if we vote Remain, the IMF forecasts growth of 2.2 per cent next year, 2.2 per cent in 2018 and 2.1 per cent in 2019.

In other words, it assumes the EU will be all fine and dandy, and smelling of roses. Which it won't be. A technical recession in the eurozone is very likely over the next few years.

Vote Leave. Take Control.

So more cuts and more tax rises.

Will that be worth it? Depends on the deal we end up with.

It will involve pushing out the baseline of the austerity programme by 2-3 years, which will probably happen even if we Remain. So, no.

Is it worth it?

For self-governance, absolutely yes.

I appreciate others might calculate differently.

So the entire austerity programme which Tory Leave ministers and MPs and many supporters have told us is unavoidable, the one that has done so much harm to working class people, turns out to be completely flexible and, therefore, completely avoidable.

That nice Mme Lagarde who you praise so highly keeps warning us we need to do more fiscal consolidation. So does the EU commission.

While complaining about austerity you're actually voting for more of it faster.

That's down to our government, not the IMF or the EU.

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.

Capital Economics (and I believe rcs) both believe Leaving would improve the public finances by savings on EU membership contributions, if not in the short-term. Stuart Rose thinks it will lead to higher wages. George Osborne thinks it will lead to a fall in house prices. Controlling immigration will have positive economic effects for some, and negatives for others.

It is Government policy to encourage Turkish membership. I can't see it happening any time soon (and have said on here before I think the UK policy is to be in favour in theory, rather than in practice) but given it's an official EU candidate, nothing can be ruled out for good.

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Alanbrooke said:

CarlottaVance said:

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.

To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.

But that's not the point

There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.

And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.

And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....

Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.

Dave egged on murder and ethnic cleansing?

Do elucidate.....

THEY are refusing to share the platform with Cameron .

So there has been no platform sharing & you're just making stuff up.

You are Michael Gove and I claim my 5 Turkish Lira......

There they were walking together yesterday.....

alex. said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

If you turn this graph upside down, it shows tinfoil sales...

@ianmulheirn: IMF on impact of Brexit. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist it's time to stop saying 'Remain is exaggerating' https://t.co/qx88Ih0i0W

. Take Control.

So more cuts and more tax rises.

Will that be worth it? Depends on the deal we end up with.

It will involve pushing out the baseline of the austerity programme by 2-3 years, which will probably happen even if we Remain. So, no.

Is it worth it?

For self-governance, absolutely yes.

I appreciate others might calculate differently.

So the entire austerity programme which Tory Leave ministers and MPs and many supporters have told us is unavoidable, the one that has done so much harm to working class people, turns out to be completely flexible and, therefore, completely avoidable.

That nice Mme Lagarde who you praise so highly keeps warning us we need to do more fiscal consolidation. So does the EU commission.

While complaining about austerity you're actually voting for more of it faster.

A highly popular theme on ConHome and amongst many Leave advocates, is that Osborne's "austerity" message is a bit of a con, and he isn't doing nearly enough to clamp down on public spending (quoting figures about rising debt and growth in Central Government spending).

Sean_F said:

I take it that those Tories who are angrily denouncing Vote Leave for campaigning on immigration are thoroughly ashamed of their own party for campaigning on promises to reduce immigration, in 2010 and 2015.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.

It is Government policy to encourage Turkish membership. I can't see it happening any time soon (and have said on here before I think the UK policy is to be in favour in theory, rather than in practice) but given it's an official EU candidate, nothing can be ruled out for good.

Nope, there is absolutely nothing at all that can ever be ruled out for good. But Gove knows that Turkey is nowhere near joining the EU, that it is decades. He has repeatedly and mendaciously said otherwise. And he has done it for one reason only: to scare people into believing we are about to be overrun by millions of Moslems. It's a contemptible dogwhistle, I'm afraid.

Sandpit said:

alex. said:

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

If you turn this graph upside down, it shows tinfoil sales...

@ianmulheirn: IMF on impact of Brexit. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist it's time to stop saying 'Remain is exaggerating' https://t.co/qx88Ih0i0W

. Take Control.

So more cuts and more tax rises.

Will that be worth it? Depends on the deal we end up with.

It will involve pushing out the baseline of the austerity programme by 2-3 years, which will probably happen even if we Remain. So, no.

Is it worth it?

For self-governance, absolutely yes.

I appreciate others might calculate differently.

So the entire austerity programme which Tory Leave ministers and MPs and many supporters have told us is unavoidable, the one that has done so much harm to working class people, turns out to be completely flexible and, therefore, completely avoidable.

That nice Mme Lagarde who you praise so highly keeps warning us we need to do more fiscal consolidation. So does the EU commission.

While complaining about austerity you're actually voting for more of it faster.

A highly popular theme on ConHome and amongst many Leave advocates, is that Osborne's "austerity" message is a bit of a con, and he isn't doing nearly enough to clamp down on public spending (quoting figures about rising debt and growth in Central Government spending).

Government expenditure is up year on year, and has been so every year since 2010. The big change since then is the doubling in spending allocated to the "Department" of Debt Interest, requiring other departmental budgets to be cut in line with the debt interest growth.

"Austerity" is what happened in Ireland and Spain - sharp reductions in govt spending. That's certainly not what's happened in the UK, where the govt have held spending as low as possible commensurate with maintaining economic growth and job creation. They've not done a bad job, given the mess they inherited from Gordon Brown.

NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

John_M said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.

It is Government policy to encourage Turkish membership. I can't see it happening any time soon (and have said on here before I think the UK policy is to be in favour in theory, rather than in practice) but given it's an official EU candidate, nothing can be ruled out for good.

Nope, there is absolutely nothing at all that can ever be ruled out for good. But Gove knows that Turkey is nowhere near joining the EU, that it is decades It's a contemptible dogwhistle, I'm afraid.

Good morning all.

A bit tetchy already. How disappointing.

In fairness, we have no way of knowing how long it might be before Turkey joins. Politically, Erdogan is the primary stumbling block at the moment. But from an EU perspective (especially a future EU that develops its own foreign policy and armed forces) it makes sense, in the same way that Turkey being a NATO member makes sense.

One the questions my elder sister asked me on Turkey after I explained the multifarious reasons why Turkey in the EU was unlikely had me stumped. So, I'll ask it here. Are there any countries other than Switzerland who, having started the accession process, ultimately didn't join the EU?

Cyclefree said:

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

One can easily turn that around. Every civilised Remainer should think long and hard about voting for an EU which will tolerate 50% youth unemployment, an EU that is seeking through its agreement with various internet companies to limit free speech, (something which is out of date, according to our very own NPalmer), an EU that thinks it permissible to lie in pursuit of a greater cause (cf Juncker), an EU that consists of states which contain real fascist parties in them, truly descended from the fascists of WW2 and represented in the EU Parliament, a vote for people like Gerry Adams. Every civilised Remainer should realise that a vote for Remain will be taken by Labour and countless others as a vote for their view of the world, a party led by a man who associates with terrorists and anti-Semites.

See - we can all play this game. The reality is that Remain does not automatically have some sort of moral high ground permitting it to lecture others. No-one does. There are some odd alliances. There are some unpleasant people that I wouldn't give the time of day to. In all votes we find ourselves voting on the same side as people that we have no time for.

But if you allow the bad men in the argument to crowd out the good we all lose. So the good men and women on both sides of the argument need to take control and not allow themselves to be bullied by their opponents seeking to make ad hominen arguments.

There are respectable and honourable reasons for voting either Remain or Leave. There are respectable and honourable people on both sides of the argument. Let's stop pretending that the morality is only on one side. It's not true. It's insulting and the insufferable moral superiority displayed by some while ignoring the beams in their own eyes brings nothing but discredit to their cause.

alex. said:

A highly popular theme on ConHome and amongst many Leave advocates, is that Osborne's "austerity" message is a bit of a con, and he isn't doing nearly enough to clamp down on public spending (quoting figures about rising debt and growth in Central Government spending).

Charles said:

tyson said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

tyson said:

Local Hero!!!- sentimental shit


@above

I have just objectively critiqued the above 80's classics for you

You have gone from being just deluded to my all time arch enemy Mr Tyson. You can slag off democracy all you like but when you start slagging off one of the greatest films ever made you really have crossed a line!!!!

In jest of course but still DEADLY SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(You can tell by the number of exclamation marks)

You and Southam- you are a couple of sentimental saddos. A bit of mawkish music, a red telephone box on a Scottish beach, a box of hankies and that's it, you are completely goners

Can I add Manon des Sources to the list... we used to watch it in school (but the beak always used to fast forward through the Emmanuelle Beart dance scene...

arirang said:

Thomas Mair has just given his name in court as "Death to traitors, freedom to Britain".