After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable
I can't imagine many Leavers reading the Guardian
Not many buy a copy of the guardian. Under 200,000.
Millions read it online. Including those the article is aimed at. But basically you're right - it won't change anything.
I'm not sure. This is the time people will start looking ahead to next Friday. If people are going to start making mental pictures this is the time 'Farage's Britain' will come into focus
a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
Lol! Is that the best you can do? You've got nothing else left, have you?
*smiles self-satisfyingly*
You also made great points on the economics, earlier.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Oh Roger. 'Even the New York Times.' Do you know anything about that paper? It led a headline the other day quoting Gordon Brown verbatim. It's way left of centre.
It's just as likely the victory for Leave will be seen as a victory for common sense, democracy and internationalism. In fact the real attention will turn to the corrupt stench that is the EU.
This is the EU's FIFA mom.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Quite - the image of the UK in my part of Spain is going right down the pan and I live in a very quiet, rural conservative area.
but after seeing the Guardian make political hay by implying that Vote Leave had a hand in the recent tragedy, i'm thoroughly disgusted. When I read Polly Toynbee's article (not even 6 hours after Jo Cox sadly passed away) I understood who I would be siding with when I voted Remain, shameless and disrespectful people who will stoop to any lows to get my remain vote.
I've had enough and put my postal leave vote in the postbox. We need real change this time, good place to start would be with Cameron's resignation.
"Somehow, over the last half-century, Western elites managed to convince themselves that nationalism was not real. Perhaps it had been real in the past, like cholera and telegraph machines, but now that we were smarter and more modern, it would be forgotten in the due course of time as better ideas supplanted it.
That now seems hopelessly naive. People do care more about people who are like them -- who speak their language, eat their food, share their customs and values. And when elites try to ignore those sentiments -- or banish them by declaring that they are simply racist -- this doesn’t make the sentiments go away. It makes the non-elites suspect the elites of disloyalty. For though elites may find something vaguely horrifying about saying that you care more about people who are like you than you do about people who are culturally or geographically further away, the rest of the population is outraged by the never-stated corollary: that the elites running things feel no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country. And perhaps we can argue that this is the morally correct way to feel -- but if it is truly the case, you can see why ordinary folks would be suspicious about allowing the elites to continue to exercise great power over their lives.
It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU
Hmmm - so what do we do about those currently here who are 'different'? Your logic suggests something needs to be done.
Different culturally or ethnically? I think people care about culture and these days pretty much don't give a shit about the colour of a man's skin. I, for example, think TSE is a top bloke but that his fundamentalist muslim doppelganger is a %$£" that we don't want here. I'm not racist (my wife is Chinese) but I am culturalist.
"Somehow, over the last half-century, Western elites managed to convince themselves that nationalism was not real. Perhaps it had been real in the past, like cholera and telegraph machines, but now that we were smarter and more modern, it would be forgotten in the due course of time as better ideas supplanted it.
That now seems hopelessly naive. People do care more about people who are like them -- who speak their language, eat their food, share their customs and values. And when elites try to ignore those sentiments -- or banish them by declaring that they are simply racist -- this doesn’t make the sentiments go away. It makes the non-elites suspect the elites of disloyalty. For though elites may find something vaguely horrifying about saying that you care more about people who are like you than you do about people who are culturally or geographically further away, the rest of the population is outraged by the never-stated corollary: that the elites running things feel no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country. And perhaps we can argue that this is the morally correct way to feel -- but if it is truly the case, you can see why ordinary folks would be suspicious about allowing the elites to continue to exercise great power over their lives.
It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU
Hmmm - so what do we do about those currently here who are 'different'? Your logic suggests something needs to be done.
Different culturally or ethnically? I think people care about culture and these days pretty much don't give a shit about the colour of a man's skin. I, for example, think TSE is a top bloke but that his fundamentalist muslim doppelganger is a %$£" that we don't want here. I'm not racist (my wife is Chinese) but I am culturalist.
The Remain playbook, writ large: https://theweeflea.com/2016/06/17/fight-against-the-hatred-the-sad-murder-of-jo-cox/ "One does not have to be a devotee of House of Cards to know that there would immediately be people thinking on the one hand ‘how do we use this?” and on the other ‘how do we stop this being used?” Fans of The Good Wife can imagine Eli Gold spinning from the beginning. What I did not expect was that life would imitate art so quickly. Within a couple of hours the ‘campaign’ was in full swing (whilst of course people were announcing they were suspending campaigning)."
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Oh Roger. 'Even the New York Times.' Do you know anything about that paper? It led a headline the other day quoting Gordon Brown verbatim. It's way left of centre.
It's just as likely the victory for Leave will be seen as a victory for common sense, democracy and internationalism. In fact the real attention will turn to the corrupt stench that is the EU.
This is the EU's FIFA mom.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Spanish media elits think like British media elites.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Quite - the image of the UK in my part of Spain is going right down the pan and I live in a very quiet, rural conservative area.
Erm, the economic image of Spain is one we should be raising aloft for worship here?
Felix, your comment below about the murder really wasn't your finest, if I may say so.
Re Mr Mair's charges - every journalist on Twitter last night was saying be very careful of contempt as it's now sub judice. That's in line with every other case I can recall.
And he's not being charged under the Terrorism Act either - my understanding was that using it to arrest him was a mechanism to give them longer to question him. It seems perfectly understandable to me to bring him to London for committal and probably to remand/hear the case given the nature of the offence.
The desperation of some to try and erase any hint that there may be a link between nasty xenophobic and racist features of the hangers on to Leave Campaign and subsequent events is very revealing.
You are trying to pin the murder on the Leave campaign.
That's what's truly disgusting.
No, no nerve hit.
You are a nasty prick. As is everyone else, like you, who tries to do this.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Quite - the image of the UK in my part of Spain is going right down the pan and I live in a very quiet, rural conservative area.
Erm, the economic image of Spain is one we should be raising aloft for worship here?
Felix, your comment below about the murder really wasn't your finest, if I may say so.
Economically things are much better than they were although that wasn't my point. I have not mentioned a murder.
but after seeing the Guardian make political hay by implying that Vote Leave had a hand in the recent tragedy, i'm thoroughly disgusted. When I read Polly Toynbee's article (not even 6 hours after Jo Cox sadly passed away) I understood who I would be siding with when I voted Remain, shameless and disrespectful people who will stoop to any lows to get my remain vote.
I've had enough and put my postal leave vote in the postbox. We need real change this time, good place to start would be with Cameron's resignation.
Wow.
One anecdote admittedly, but it might back up the Qriously poll findings. I know a lot of Remain people turned off politics generally by this.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Quite - the image of the UK in my part of Spain is going right down the pan and I live in a very quiet, rural conservative area.
Erm, the economic image of Spain is one we should be raising aloft for worship here?
Felix, your comment below about the murder really wasn't your finest, if I may say so.
Economically things are much better than they were although that wasn't my point. I have not mentioned a murder.
Spain is in a pitiful place economically Felix. Absolutely pitiful. So I don't really think we should be taking image lessons on the EU from them. Sorry.
a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
Lol! Is that the best you can do? You've got nothing else left, have you?
*smiles self-satisfyingly*
You also made great points on the economics, earlier.
Re Mr Mair's charges - every journalist on Twitter last night was saying be very careful of contempt as it's now sub judice. That's in line with every other case I can recall.
And he's not being charged under the Terrorism Act either - my understanding was that using it to arrest him was a mechanism to give them longer to question him. It seems perfectly understandable to me to bring him to London for committal and probably to remand/hear the case given the nature of the offence.
The desperation of some to try and erase any hint that there may be a link between nasty xenophobic and racist features of the hangers on to Leave Campaign and subsequent events is very revealing.
You are trying to pin the murder on the Leave campaign.
That's what's truly disgusting.
No, no nerve hit.
You are a nasty prick. As is everyone else, like you, who tries to do this.
And the abuse continues. What next? Threats? You really need to get a grip.
F1: pre-qualifying piece will be a short time later than usual as everything's an hour later than normal.
Mr. Royale, if people are making rancid accusations and using a murder as political propaganda that's disgraceful.
That said, I hope everyone* makes their decision rationally, based on what's best for the UK, instead of considering which side has the man they dislike most (Farage? Blair? Corbyn?) on it and voting the other way.
*Not unlike coming home to find Jennifer Morrison and Olivia Wilde pillow-fighting over which of them gets to sleep with me, this won't happen. But a man can hope.
Amongst our clerical staff, this is a main topic of conversation. Not the referendum, nor the football, not even the merits of Alternative Voting. What a peculiar bunch of people.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
Lol! Is that the best you can do? You've got nothing else left, have you?
*smiles self-satisfyingly*
You also made great points on the economics, earlier.
Thanks.
Yes, that was good. Lies, damn lies, economic statistics and exaggerated, badly-based graphs.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Quite - the image of the UK in my part of Spain is going right down the pan and I live in a very quiet, rural conservative area.
Erm, the economic image of Spain is one we should be raising aloft for worship here?
Felix, your comment below about the murder really wasn't your finest, if I may say so.
Economically things are much better than they were although that wasn't my point. I have not mentioned a murder.
Spain is in a pitiful place economically Felix. Absolutely pitiful. So I don't really think we should be taking image lessons on the EU from them. Sorry.
It's not perfect but you clearly don't know the country either economically or otherwise. There's certainly a level of tolerance here that is sadly lacking among some in the UK. Sorry (sic)
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.
It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.
Oh Roger. 'Even the New York Times.' Do you know anything about that paper? It led a headline the other day quoting Gordon Brown verbatim. It's way left of centre.
It's just as likely the victory for Leave will be seen as a victory for common sense, democracy and internationalism. In fact the real attention will turn to the corrupt stench that is the EU.
This is the EU's FIFA mom.
Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement truth.
It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.
Spanish media elits think like British media elites.
Who would have thought it?
They do, indeed. As in the UK there is a mix of left and right wing publications. Though, of course, many of the UK's media elite advocate leaving the EU. As you imply, perhaps their coverage of issues is therefore biased.
The bottom line, though, is that whether we like it or not, much of the coverage about the referendum abroad is focused on the imagery and language being used around immigration, the lies being told about Turkey, and about Nigel Farage. That will shape views of the UK post-Brexit, just as our views of abroad are shaped by the media coverage we get in this country.
That now seems hopelessly naive. People do care more about people who are like them -- who speak their language, eat their food, share their customs and values. And when elites try to ignore those sentiments -- or banish them by declaring that they are simply racist -- this doesn’t make the sentiments go away. It makes the non-elites suspect the elites of disloyalty. For though elites may find something vaguely horrifying about saying that you care more about people who are like you than you do about people who are culturally or geographically further away, the rest of the population is outraged by the never-stated corollary: that the elites running things feel no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country. And perhaps we can argue that this is the morally correct way to feel -- but if it is truly the case, you can see why ordinary folks would be suspicious about allowing the elites to continue to exercise great power over their lives.
It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU
Hmmm - so what do we do about those currently here who are 'different'? Your logic suggests something needs to be done.
Different culturally or ethnically? I think people care about culture and these days pretty much don't give a shit about the colour of a man's skin. I, for example, think TSE is a top bloke but that his fundamentalist muslim doppelganger is a %$£" that we don't want here. I'm not racist (my wife is Chinese) but I am culturalist.
Not sure what that has to do with the EU, though.
Free movement is seen as the consequence of elites feeling "no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country". It's the idea that British people i.e. British citizens are to be treated as no more special in their own country than others. Hence the complaints that someone turning up here from some remote part of the EU has the same rights as a British person born here.
That's the linkage. The EU project is based on the idea that there should be no difference between a Briton and a Latvian as far as rights are concerned. Is that view really shared by all?
Hence the outrage at convicted criminals from other countries claiming the right to live here. Most people probably feel something along the lines of "When in Rome and all that" and that if you break the rules, you're out.
I'm amazed by how little chatter there is suddenly about the referendum. The Remainians on my Facebook feed have suddenly gone very quiet.
Again, I think this might tie in with what Qriously found: that significant numbers of Remainers have switched to Don't Know. I read that more along the lines of disgust at what has happened and switching off politics for a few days. If this is true I'd expect them to return by Thursday?
We need more polls to know if there's any basis to this.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
It's only become recently apparent that there is a sizeable left wing vote for Leave.
The IMF graph makes some enormous assumptions. They may turnout to be inaccurate. But if they are accurate the graph shows Brexit making us poorer in the short term. More cuts, more tax rises, more borrowing or a mixture of all three. If that's there considered view, which voters are free to ignore, disagree with or weigh lightly, they should say so before the vote. It's what both the IMF and election campaigns are for.
That's what I find so extraordinary about this campaign. People pick out a little bit of Leaving which they like and completely miss the bigger picture.
It's like Mussolini made the trains run on time. We are heading for catastrophy. We will become the world's pariahs.
"A vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but it will be a significant factor for wavering folk when they enter the polling booth on 23/6/16, given that campaigning has now effectively been suspended until polling day.
It is sad that the EU ref has now been distorted by the tragic action of a mentally deranged man, but I now expect, as I have always done, that Remain will win by >10%.
If Remain do win, the UK should stop carping on the sidelines and recognise that it needs to work with other major European countries towards ever closer union.
I'm amazed by how little chatter there is suddenly about the referendum. The Remainians on my Facebook feed have suddenly gone very quiet.
Again, I think this might tie in with what Qriously found: that significant numbers of Remainers have switched to Don't Know. I read that more along the lines of disgust at what has happened and switching off politics for a few days. If this is true I'd expect them to return by Thursday?
We need more polls to know if there's any basis to this.
It's certainly not a voodoo poll. But, they have no track record.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
The Guardian has a range of coverage and always has. It has been focused on the forgotten parts of this country - the Stokes, the inner city estates, the deprived Welsh valleys - for a lot longer than any other newspaper. It lets itself down, though, with its columnists, most of whom are too comfortable, too middle class and too unwilling to confront the challenges the newspaper's reporting throws at them.
Losing a battle does not mean losing a war. The more the EU integrates the more terrible the consequences will be when it inevitably unravels. (To say nothing of the absence of democratic accountability in the meanwhile).
It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU
Hmmm - so what do we do about those currently here who are 'different'? Your logic suggests something needs to be done.
Different culturally or ethnically? I think people care about culture and these days pretty much don't give a shit about the colour of a man's skin. I, for example, think TSE is a top bloke but that his fundamentalist muslim doppelganger is a %$£" that we don't want here. I'm not racist (my wife is Chinese) but I am culturalist.
Not sure what that has to do with the EU, though.
Free movement is seen as the consequence of elites feeling "no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country". It's the idea that British people i.e. British citizens are to be treated as no more special in their own country than others. Hence the complaints that someone turning up here from some remote part of the EU has the same rights as a British person born here.
That's the linkage. The EU project is based on the idea that there should be no difference between a Briton and a Latvian as far as rights are concerned. Is that view really shared by all?
Hence the outrage at convicted criminals from other countries claiming the right to live here. Most people probably feel something along the lines of "When in Rome and all that" and that if you break the rules, you're out.
"When in Rome" applies everywhere else in the world except for the EU.
Be found guilty of anyting more than speeding in the ME or Asia and expect to be on a plane home very quickly indeed. If you want to come back, you can hire a local lawyer to plead your case from outside. no legal aid for foreigners either.
"A vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but it will be a significant factor for wavering folk when they enter the polling booth on 23/6/16, given that campaigning has now effectively been suspended until polling day.
It is sad that the EU ref has now been distorted by the tragic action of a mentally derange man, but I now expect, as I have always done, that Remain will win by >10%.
If Remain do win, the UK should stop carping on the sidelines and recognise that it needs to work with other major European countries towards ever closer union.
Please try to understand that having a mental illness is not the same thing as being deranged.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.
The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.
During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.
@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
Losing a battle does not mean losing a war. The more the EU integrates the more terrible the consequences will be when it inevitably unravels. (To say nothing of the absence of democratic accountability in the meanwhile).
Yes, voting Remain is voting to try and avoid something that is, sadly, inevitable.
It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU
Hmmm - so what do we do about those currently here who are 'different'? Your logic suggests something needs to be done.
Different culturally or ethnically? I think people care about culture and these days pretty much don't give a shit about the colour of a man's skin. I, for example, think TSE is a top bloke but that his fundamentalist muslim doppelganger is a %$£" that we don't want here. I'm not racist (my wife is Chinese) but I am culturalist.
Not sure what that has to do with the EU, though.
Free movement is seen as the consequence of elites feeling "no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country". It's the idea that British people i.e. British citizens are to be treated as no more special in their own country than others. Hence the complaints that someone turning up here from some remote part of the EU has the same rights as a British person born here.
That's the linkage. The EU project is based on the idea that there should be no difference between a Briton and a Latvian as far as rights are concerned. Is that view really shared by all?
Hence the outrage at convicted criminals from other countries claiming the right to live here. Most people probably feel something along the lines of "When in Rome and all that" and that if you break the rules, you're out.
"When in Rome" applies everywhere else in the world except for the EU.
Be found guilty of anyting more than speeding in the ME or Asia and expect to be on a plane home very quickly indeed. If you want to come back, you can hire a local lawyer to plead your case from outside. no legal aid for foreigners either.
Yep. It never ceases to amaze me when liberals bleat on about free movement considering the rest of the world has no truck with such naivety. You can expect thorough passport and visa checks everywhere you travel and a 'rigorous' going over if you commit any felony.
The EU's approach to immigration has been stark raving bonkers.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
The Guardian has a range of coverage and always has. It has been focused on the forgotten parts of this country - the Stokes, the inner city estates, the deprived Welsh valleys - for a lot longer than any other newspaper. It lets itself down, though, with its columnists, most of whom are too comfortable, too middle class and too unwilling to confront the challenges the newspaper's reporting throws at them.
@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
Among my own circle, there are only two who will vote Remain and one undecided.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
The Guardian has a range of coverage and always has. It has been focused on the forgotten parts of this country - the Stokes, the inner city estates, the deprived Welsh valleys - for a lot longer than any other newspaper. It lets itself down, though, with its columnists, most of whom are too comfortable, too middle class and too unwilling to confront the challenges the newspaper's reporting throws at them.
That's fair comment. When they want to be, they can be very good journalists. Most of the columnists on the other hand...
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.
The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.
During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.
Yes. But there are a lot of people who talk Brexit who won't vote Brexit.
@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
I think Remainers care about exactly the same things. They just have different views on them. I see this referendum, for example, as a democratic exercise in a sovereign country. But day to day, I believe it's in our best interests to cede sovereignty in certain areas. I understand that you think differently.
A General Election is 650 little elections, and we saw from the European elections to the 2015 General Election that the public are quite capable of electing in very different ways at differing elections.
If someone is against an integrated federal EU, would you advocate they vote to Leave?
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.
The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.
During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.
Interesting Plato. I was going to use the word 'anodyne' rather than 'abysmal' which is perhaps fairer. I do find it so bland.
If Remain win narrowly, and that has always been my prediction (although my political predictions are nearly on a par with Mr Observer's), the EU won't think "Phew, that was close, we'd better change a little." They know they are right anyway and the voters have finally seen sense.
Does anybody think otherwise?
So pious speeches about we need to drive change in Europe are drivel. The EU never changes, it just slows occasionally, but the direction is inexorable. Sixty years of progress is their cry. The odd diversion is irrelevant.
Cameron got bugger all last time he tried (if 'tried' is the right word), and if he wins, he'll get the same again.
The establishment have decided. Vote Remain and accept that a political union is inevitable. It's easier that way.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
"A vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"
I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but it will be a significant factor for wavering folk when they enter the polling booth on 23/6/16, given that campaigning has now effectively been suspended until polling day.
It is sad that the EU ref has now been distorted by the tragic action of a mentally deranged man, but I now expect, as I have always done, that Remain will win by >10%.
If Remain do win, the UK should stop carping on the sidelines and recognise that it needs to work with other major European countries towards ever closer union.
Sorry your last sentence: I just cannot see happening. Far too many would question the legitimacy. If Remain win ( as I expect ) it's grudging in my view at best. Charging off to closer union is not going to happen.
I see Gordon Brown has jumped on the Jo Cox bandwagon. I'd suggest he did his fair share in giving us the cynical politics we have today.
Quite. Most offputting to see the odious Cambell on the TV in the last couple of days, spinning away as he always does. Maybe he's getting himself in gear ready for Chilcot?
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
One can easily turn that around. Every civilised Remainer should think long and hard about voting for an EU which will tolerate 50% youth unemployment, an EU that is seeking through its agreement with various internet companies to limit free speech, (something which is out of date, according to our very own NPalmer), an EU that thinks it permissible to lie in pursuit of a greater cause (cf Juncker), an EU that consists of states which contain real fascist parties in them, truly descended from the fascists of WW2 and represented in the EU Parliament, a vote for people like Gerry Adams. Every civilised Remainer should realise that a vote for Remain will be taken by Labour and countless others as a vote for their view of the world, a party led by a man who associates with terrorists and anti-Semites.
See - we can all play this game. The reality is that Remain does not automatically have some sort of moral high ground permitting it to lecture others. No-one does. There are some odd alliances. There are some unpleasant people that I wouldn't give the time of day to. In all votes we find ourselves voting on the same side as people that we have no time for.
But if you allow the bad men in the argument to crowd out the good we all lose. So the good men and women on both sides of the argument need to take control and not allow themselves to be bullied by their opponents seeking to make ad hominen arguments.
There are respectable and honourable reasons for voting either Remain or Leave. There are respectable and honourable people on both sides of the argument. Let's stop pretending that the morality is only on one side. It's not true. It's insulting and the insufferable moral superiority displayed by some while ignoring the beams in their own eyes brings nothing but discredit to their cause.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
Absolutely right.
Farage couldn't even win a seat to Westminster. He's marginal.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
It won't be because of Farage. It will be because Leave have appropriated his political message (something they claimed to be desperate to avoid before the campaign started).
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.
The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.
During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.
The Times has the widest range of columnists in terms of political views. I like that about it as it's important to engage with opinions you don't like or agree with. Where it lets itself down is in its news coverage, which I think is far too affected by the newspaper's backing for the Cameron/Osborne world view.
The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.
Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.
The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.
During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.
Interesting Plato. I was going to use the word 'anodyne' rather than 'abysmal' which is perhaps fairer. I do find it so bland.
I subscribe for the comments. They're frequently very good.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.
To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.
But that's not the point
There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.
And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.
And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....
@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
I think Remainers care about exactly the same things. They just have different views on them. I see this referendum, for example, as a democratic exercise in a sovereign country. But day to day, I believe it's in our best interests to cede sovereignty in certain areas. I understand that you think differently.
I don't think that's true, sadly.
In your case, absolutely. You are patriotic, and emotionally wax-lyrical about this country as much as I do. You've reached a different conclusion, fair enough, and, to your credit, you are also generously open to other points of view.
But others simply view nations as redundant, and have no problem with the political set-up (or strong feelings on values, if they vote at all) as long as they can freely travel and work anywhere internationally, and are financially doing well.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?
Morning all. I see that Thomas Mair has been charged with murder overnight. Hopefully things will now move on for everyone except the poor family. Their lives have been sadly changed forever.
This morning's TV paper reviews are going to be very interesting to watch, with them unable to talk about any of the front pages!
I imagine the police (and the PB mod police) will be on the look out for people talking too much about the case, which is now 'sub judice'.
Mr Mair will appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court on Saturday and faces a number of other charges, including grievous bodily harm. He is further charged with possession of a firearm with intent and possession of an offensive weapon, the force said.
A General Election is 650 little elections, and we saw from the European elections to the 2015 General Election that the public are quite capable of electing in very different ways at differing elections.
If someone is against an integrated federal EU, would you advocate they vote to Leave?
Feeling the ends don't justify the means is perfectly reasonable. That could apply to someone favouring EU withdrawal who doesn't want to validate this Xenophobic campaign. Or someone who'd love a European polity but hates the current EU enough to vote to leave. Life is very complex and referendums force a binary choice.
@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
I think Remainers care about exactly the same things. They just have different views on them. I see this referendum, for example, as a democratic exercise in a sovereign country. But day to day, I believe it's in our best interests to cede sovereignty in certain areas. I understand that you think differently.
I am a great believer in sharing power to achieve things which can best be done collectively. I think the EU has gone beyond that alas. But it is a very finely balanced decision in my view. It is less - for me anyway - about the position now, with which I could just about live and more about where the EU is going and whether I think Britain should go there too.
BTW judging by your posts, I think we must have been living in Spain at around the same time. Were you in Barcelona?
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
One can easily turn that around. Every civilised Remainer should think long and hard about voting for an EU which will tolerate 50% youth unemployment, an EU that is seeking through its agreement with various internet companies to limit free speech, (something which is out of date, according to our very own NPalmer), an EU that thinks it permissible to lie in pursuit of a greater cause (cf Juncker), an EU that consists of states which contain real fascist parties in them, truly descended from the fascists of WW2 and represented in the EU Parliament, a vote for people like Gerry Adams. Every civilised Remainer should realise that a vote for Remain will be taken by Labour and countless others as a vote for their view of the world, a party led by a man who associates with terrorists and anti-Semites.
See - we can all play this game. The reality is that Remain does not automatically have some sort of moral high ground permitting it to lecture others. No-one does. There are some odd alliances. There are some unpleasant people that I wouldn't give the time of day to. In all votes we find ourselves voting on the same side as people that we have no time for.
But if you allow the bad men in the argument to crowd out the good we all lose. So the good men and women on both sides of the argument need to take control and not allow themselves to be bullied by their opponents seeking to make ad hominen arguments.
There are respectable and honourable reasons for voting either Remain or Leave. There are respectable and honourable people on both sides of the argument. Let's stop pretending that the morality is only on one side. It's not true. It's insulting and the insufferable moral superiority displayed by some while ignoring the beams in their own eyes brings nothing but discredit to their cause.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
It won't be because of Farage. It will be because Leave have appropriated his political message (something they claimed to be desperate to avoid before the campaign started).
You've hit the nail on the head. We are heading for a right wing coup by some people with a very dubious message
If the EU tried this shite out on the GB public there would be cries for another referendum. its just scare stories designed to frighten people, It'' never happen, just like currency union won't nor will political union.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?
Both sides have exaggerated.
But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.
If there were a poisonous atmosphere, it was created by Blair et al. opening the floodgates for political reasons, Cameron making a promise he couldn't keep, and the political over-sensitivity that saw police do nothing about a decade and a half of industrial scale rape in Rotherham because of 'cultural sensitivities'.
People are sick of being told genuine concerns are racist, unacceptable views, especially when being told this by the wealthy and the unaffected.
And if people are concerned about the tone of this referendum debate, then maybe someone should give Amber Rudd a call and ask if she thinks it was acceptable to say Boris Johnson wasn't the sort of man someone would want to drive their daughter home after a party [or very similar].
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?
Both sides have exaggerated.
But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.
Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.
If the EU tried this shite out on the GB public there would be cries for another referendum. its just scare stories designed to frighten people, It'' never happen, just like currency union won't nor will political union.
..
There might be cries for it but they wouldnt get it. We know for a fact that the EU have delayed a number of policy and directive announcements until after the 23rd June.
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.
To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.
But that's not the point
There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.
And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.
And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....
Oh good
perhaps youd like to explain why Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.
when you're standing in the swamp with the rest of them that's not the moral high ground.
@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
I think Remainers care about exactly the same things. They just have different views on them. I see this referendum, for example, as a democratic exercise in a sovereign country. But day to day, I believe it's in our best interests to cede sovereignty in certain areas. I understand that you think differently.
I am a great believer in sharing power to achieve things which can best be done collectively. I think the EU has gone beyond that alas. But it is a very finely balanced decision in my view. It is less - for me anyway - about the position now, with which I could just about live and more about where the EU is going and whether I think Britain should go there too.
BTW judging by your posts, I think we must have been living in Spain at around the same time. Were you in Barcelona?
Mr. Jonathan, if you mean in terms of securing a referendum, I think that's right.
But the key players have been Gove, Boris and Leadsom. Boris gave Leave much needed impetus, Gove performed well at the early Sky Q&A, and Leadsom (apparently) was rather good at the six-way debate.
Gisela Stuart's also been a significant asset for Leave.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?
Both sides have exaggerated.
But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.
Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.
Capital Economics (and I believe rcs) both believe Leaving would improve the public finances by savings on EU membership contributions, if not in the short-term. Stuart Rose thinks it will lead to higher wages. George Osborne thinks it will lead to a fall in house prices. Controlling immigration will have positive economic effects for some, and negatives for others.
It is Government policy to encourage Turkish membership. I can't see it happening any time soon (and have said on here before I think the UK policy is to be in favour in theory, rather than in practice) but given it's an official EU candidate, nothing can be ruled out for good.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?
Cameron knowingly told lies about Turkey's imminent EU membership, in earlier negotiations with Turkey when it suited him to play up the prospect of Turkey joining. Gove has a reasonable excuse that he is merely taking Cameron at his word.
It vindicates the Natcen/BSA/Curtice analysis that triggered all the question marks about the usefulness of telephone polling.
Repeat calls to the same number yield different results to constantly jumping to new numbers to meet a 1000 sample in a short time.
Persistence generates a more accurate and representative sample,
Varying the days and times of calls will increase contact rates; it's then down to the persuasiveness of the interviewer and the willingness of the respondent.
Mr. Jonathan, if you mean in terms of securing a referendum, I think that's right.
But the key players have been Gove, Boris and Leadsom. Boris gave Leave much needed impetus, Gove performed well at the early Sky Q&A, and Leadsom (apparently) was rather good at the six-way debate.
Gisela Stuart's also been a significant asset for Leave.
He obtained the vote and framed the debate. If leave win, some future right wing government will put Lord Farage on the £1000 note. Wont buy you a pint though.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
It won't be because of Farage. It will be because Leave have appropriated his political message (something they claimed to be desperate to avoid before the campaign started).
You've hit the nail on the head. We are heading for a right wing coup by some people with a very dubious message
Oh Roger. Can you not, truly, see the absurdity of that comment?
A vote that might see 50% of the British voting public support it is scarcely appropriate to describe as a 'right wing coup.'
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?
Both sides have exaggerated.
But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.
Michael Gove is very much part of the dog-whistling campaign that Leave have conducted. To be fair Boris has not lowered himself to the standards of most of the Leave campaign.
Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.
If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.
It won't be because of Farage. It will be because Leave have appropriated his political message (something they claimed to be desperate to avoid before the campaign started).
You've hit the nail on the head. We are heading for a right wing coup by some people with a very dubious message
Oh Roger. Can you not, truly, see the absurdity of that comment?
A vote that might see 50% of the British voting public support it is scarcely appropriate to describe as a 'right wing coup.'
After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?
An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........
Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.
To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.
But that's not the point
There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.
And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.
And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....
Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.
Comments
Patrick Panter (Rpphanna1) 4m ago
I was going to vote Remain...
but after seeing the Guardian make political hay by implying that Vote Leave had a hand in the recent tragedy, i'm thoroughly disgusted. When I read Polly Toynbee's article (not even 6 hours after Jo Cox sadly passed away) I understood who I would be siding with when I voted Remain, shameless and disrespectful people who will stoop to any lows to get my remain vote.
I've had enough and put my postal leave vote in the postbox. We need real change this time, good place to start would be with Cameron's resignation.
https://theweeflea.com/2016/06/17/fight-against-the-hatred-the-sad-murder-of-jo-cox/
"One does not have to be a devotee of House of Cards to know that there would immediately be people thinking on the one hand ‘how do we use this?” and on the other ‘how do we stop this being used?” Fans of The Good Wife can imagine Eli Gold spinning from the beginning. What I did not expect was that life would imitate art so quickly. Within a couple of hours the ‘campaign’ was in full swing (whilst of course people were announcing they were suspending campaigning)."
Who would have thought it?
Felix, your comment below about the murder really wasn't your finest, if I may say so.
One anecdote admittedly, but it might back up the Qriously poll findings. I know a lot of Remain people turned off politics generally by this.
F1: pre-qualifying piece will be a short time later than usual as everything's an hour later than normal.
Mr. Royale, if people are making rancid accusations and using a murder as political propaganda that's disgraceful.
That said, I hope everyone* makes their decision rationally, based on what's best for the UK, instead of considering which side has the man they dislike most (Farage? Blair? Corbyn?) on it and voting the other way.
*Not unlike coming home to find Jennifer Morrison and Olivia Wilde pillow-fighting over which of them gets to sleep with me, this won't happen. But a man can hope.
I really hope this tragedy doesn't impact the referendum at all - democracy needs to stand up against its critics and attackers here.
I'm going to be encouraging everyone to vote - if we win this, I want us to win it properly.
The bottom line, though, is that whether we like it or not, much of the coverage about the referendum abroad is focused on the imagery and language being used around immigration, the lies being told about Turkey, and about Nigel Farage. That will shape views of the UK post-Brexit, just as our views of abroad are shaped by the media coverage we get in this country.
We need more polls to know if there's any basis to this.
It's like Mussolini made the trains run on time. We are heading for catastrophy. We will become the world's pariahs.
I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but it will be a significant factor for wavering folk when they enter the polling booth on 23/6/16, given that campaigning has now effectively been suspended until polling day.
It is sad that the EU ref has now been distorted by the tragic action of a mentally deranged man, but I now expect, as I have always done, that Remain will win by >10%.
If Remain do win, the UK should stop carping on the sidelines and recognise that it needs to work with other major European countries towards ever closer union.
Losing a battle does not mean losing a war. The more the EU integrates the more terrible the consequences will be when it inevitably unravels. (To say nothing of the absence of democratic accountability in the meanwhile).
Be found guilty of anyting more than speeding in the ME or Asia and expect to be on a plane home very quickly indeed. If you want to come back, you can hire a local lawyer to plead your case from outside. no legal aid for foreigners either.
During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.
There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?
What do we have in common?
Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.
Unless the EU drastically reforms.
The EU's approach to immigration has been stark raving bonkers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36565036
He's concerned about the prospect of an EU army.
A General Election is 650 little elections, and we saw from the European elections to the 2015 General Election that the public are quite capable of electing in very different ways at differing elections.
If someone is against an integrated federal EU, would you advocate they vote to Leave?
Does anybody think otherwise?
So pious speeches about we need to drive change in Europe are drivel. The EU never changes, it just slows occasionally, but the direction is inexorable. Sixty years of progress is their cry.
The odd diversion is irrelevant.
Cameron got bugger all last time he tried (if 'tried' is the right word), and if he wins, he'll get the same again.
The establishment have decided. Vote Remain and accept that a political union is inevitable. It's easier that way.
See - we can all play this game. The reality is that Remain does not automatically have some sort of moral high ground permitting it to lecture others. No-one does. There are some odd alliances. There are some unpleasant people that I wouldn't give the time of day to. In all votes we find ourselves voting on the same side as people that we have no time for.
But if you allow the bad men in the argument to crowd out the good we all lose. So the good men and women on both sides of the argument need to take control and not allow themselves to be bullied by their opponents seeking to make ad hominen arguments.
There are respectable and honourable reasons for voting either Remain or Leave. There are respectable and honourable people on both sides of the argument. Let's stop pretending that the morality is only on one side. It's not true. It's insulting and the insufferable moral superiority displayed by some while ignoring the beams in their own eyes brings nothing but discredit to their cause.
Farage couldn't even win a seat to Westminster. He's marginal.
The Times is also by far the best for sport.
To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.
But that's not the point
There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.
And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.
And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....
In your case, absolutely. You are patriotic, and emotionally wax-lyrical about this country as much as I do. You've reached a different conclusion, fair enough, and, to your credit, you are also generously open to other points of view.
But others simply view nations as redundant, and have no problem with the political set-up (or strong feelings on values, if they vote at all) as long as they can freely travel and work anywhere internationally, and are financially doing well.
Not the case here.
BTW judging by your posts, I think we must have been living in Spain at around the same time. Were you in Barcelona?
I see on PB at least the campaign has resumed
If the EU tried this shite out on the GB public there would be cries for another referendum. its just scare stories designed to frighten people, It'' never happen, just like currency union won't nor will political union.
..
But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.
If there were a poisonous atmosphere, it was created by Blair et al. opening the floodgates for political reasons, Cameron making a promise he couldn't keep, and the political over-sensitivity that saw police do nothing about a decade and a half of industrial scale rape in Rotherham because of 'cultural sensitivities'.
People are sick of being told genuine concerns are racist, unacceptable views, especially when being told this by the wealthy and the unaffected.
And if people are concerned about the tone of this referendum debate, then maybe someone should give Amber Rudd a call and ask if she thinks it was acceptable to say Boris Johnson wasn't the sort of man someone would want to drive their daughter home after a party [or very similar].
Mr. Roger, your fears are exaggerated twice. I think Remain will win, and, if they don't, it will be due to a democratic vote.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/win-or-lose-im-staying-in-no-10-declares-cameron-lht3wwfvs
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36566422
perhaps youd like to explain why Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.
when you're standing in the swamp with the rest of them that's not the moral high ground.
Your analysis has merit - but I fear misses the point.
From abroad - it will look like Farage (and his poster) has won.
No, it's not fair, but journalists have to boil down complex cases into simple stories.
'UK LEAVES EU BECAUSE OF IMMIGRATION' will be the headlines.
And Farage will feature prominently in the 'Why' - he's been banging this drum for years, not weeks......
But the key players have been Gove, Boris and Leadsom. Boris gave Leave much needed impetus, Gove performed well at the early Sky Q&A, and Leadsom (apparently) was rather good at the six-way debate.
Gisela Stuart's also been a significant asset for Leave.
That's not a positive case for anything.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/bankenunion-schaeuble-bremst-eu-einlagensicherung-14293604.html
(Awaits Carlotta's Cameron cheerleading)
It is Government policy to encourage Turkish membership. I can't see it happening any time soon (and have said on here before I think the UK policy is to be in favour in theory, rather than in practice) but given it's an official EU candidate, nothing can be ruled out for good.
Repeat calls to the same number yield different results to constantly jumping to new numbers to meet a 1000 sample in a short time.
Persistence generates a more accurate and representative sample,
Varying the days and times of calls will increase contact rates; it's then down to the persuasiveness of the interviewer and the willingness of the respondent.
A vote that might see 50% of the British voting public support it is scarcely appropriate to describe as a 'right wing coup.'
What did you expect ?
Do elucidate.....
http://www.scotsman.com/news/9-out-of-10-scots-nurses-believe-nhs-cannot-cope-with-demand-1-4158149