politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The EURef might be more like the AV referendum and not the

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

Casino_Royale said:

smear Leave with Farage

Interesting choice of words.

What was Kate Hoey doing with him on the Thames?

a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

Lol! Is that the best you can do? You've got nothing else left, have you?

*smiles self-satisfyingly*

You also made great points on the economics, earlier.

A Guardian comment:

Patrick Panter (Rpphanna1) 4m ago

I was going to vote Remain...

but after seeing the Guardian make political hay by implying that Vote Leave had a hand in the recent tragedy, i'm thoroughly disgusted. When I read Polly Toynbee's article (not even 6 hours after Jo Cox sadly passed away) I understood who I would be siding with when I voted Remain, shameless and disrespectful people who will stoop to any lows to get my remain vote.

I've had enough and put my postal leave vote in the postbox. We need real change this time, good place to start would be with Cameron's resignation.

SouthamObserver said:

Estobar said:

Roger said:

Casino_Royale said:

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

There's nothing to think about. It's a blatant attempt by the Guardian to smear Leave with Farage in order to try and stop it from winning.

It is unarguable. She says that a victory by Leave will be seen around the world as a victory for Farage and xenophobia. It's not even in doubt. Look at the article posted by Carlotta. Even the New York Times know it.

Oh Roger. 'Even the New York Times.' Do you know anything about that paper? It led a headline the other day quoting Gordon Brown verbatim. It's way left of centre.

It's just as likely the victory for Leave will be seen as a victory for common sense, democracy and internationalism. In fact the real attention will turn to the corrupt stench that is the EU.

This is the EU's FIFA mom.

Read any Spanish newspaper of any political persuasion - as I did for 10 days recently - and Farage was front and centre; along with bemusement that Boris and co should be telling lies about Turkey being about to join the EU. If Spain is representative of other member states, then a Leave vote is being seen almost entirely as one about being opposed to immigration and immigrants. To be fair, that's not too far from the truth.

It's the incendiary language and the images and the lies that seem to fascinate.

Spanish media elits think like British media elites.

Who would have thought it?

felix said:

Casino_Royale said:

felix said:

PlatoSaid said:

Re Mr Mair's charges - every journalist on Twitter last night was saying be very careful of contempt as it's now sub judice. That's in line with every other case I can recall.

And he's not being charged under the Terrorism Act either - my understanding was that using it to arrest him was a mechanism to give them longer to question him. It seems perfectly understandable to me to bring him to London for committal and probably to remand/hear the case given the nature of the offence.

The desperation of some to try and erase any hint that there may be a link between nasty xenophobic and racist features of the hangers on to Leave Campaign and subsequent events is very revealing.

You are trying to pin the murder on the Leave campaign.

That's what's truly disgusting.

No, no nerve hit.

You are a nasty prick. As is everyone else, like you, who tries to do this.

Good morning, everyone.

F1: pre-qualifying piece will be a short time later than usual as everything's an hour later than normal.

Mr. Royale, if people are making rancid accusations and using a murder as political propaganda that's disgraceful.

That said, I hope everyone* makes their decision rationally, based on what's best for the UK, instead of considering which side has the man they dislike most (Farage? Blair? Corbyn?) on it and voting the other way.

*Not unlike coming home to find Jennifer Morrison and Olivia Wilde pillow-fighting over which of them gets to sleep with me, this won't happen. But a man can hope.

Sean_F said:

foxinsoxuk said:

In more important news Miss GB is to be stripped of her title:

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/17/miss-great-britain-title-sex-itv2-love-island-zara-holland-alex-bowen

Amongst our clerical staff, this is a main topic of conversation. Not the referendum, nor the football, not even the merits of Alternative Voting. What a peculiar bunch of people.

Is Miss GB meant to remain celibate, then?

Just while appearing on TV

Casino_Royale said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Casino_Royale said:

Scott_P said:

Casino_Royale said:

smear Leave with Farage

Interesting choice of words.

What was Kate Hoey doing with him on the Thames?

a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

Lol! Is that the best you can do? You've got nothing else left, have you?

*smiles self-satisfyingly*

You also made great points on the economics, earlier.

Thanks.

Yes, that was good. Lies, damn lies, economic statistics and exaggerated, badly-based graphs.

SouthamObserver said:

Patrick said:

felix said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

BenedictWhite said:

PlatoSaid said:

That now seems hopelessly naive. People do care more about people who are like them -- who speak their language, eat their food, share their customs and values. And when elites try to ignore those sentiments -- or banish them by declaring that they are simply racist -- this doesn’t make the sentiments go away. It makes the non-elites suspect the elites of disloyalty. For though elites may find something vaguely horrifying about saying that you care more about people who are like you than you do about people who are culturally or geographically further away, the rest of the population is outraged by the never-stated corollary: that the elites running things feel no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country. And perhaps we can argue that this is the morally correct way to feel -- but if it is truly the case, you can see why ordinary folks would be suspicious about allowing the elites to continue to exercise great power over their lives.

It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU

Hmmm - so what do we do about those currently here who are 'different'? Your logic suggests something needs to be done.

Different culturally or ethnically? I think people care about culture and these days pretty much don't give a shit about the colour of a man's skin. I, for example, think TSE is a top bloke but that his fundamentalist muslim doppelganger is a %$£" that we don't want here. I'm not racist (my wife is Chinese) but I am culturalist.

Not sure what that has to do with the EU, though.

Free movement is seen as the consequence of elites feeling "no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country". It's the idea that British people i.e. British citizens are to be treated as no more special in their own country than others. Hence the complaints that someone turning up here from some remote part of the EU has the same rights as a British person born here.

That's the linkage. The EU project is based on the idea that there should be no difference between a Briton and a Latvian as far as rights are concerned. Is that view really shared by all?

Hence the outrage at convicted criminals from other countries claiming the right to live here. Most people probably feel something along the lines of "When in Rome and all that" and that if you break the rules, you're out.

PlatoSaid said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful. A sensible Guardian journalist:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages?CMP=share_btn_tw

The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.

It's only become recently apparent that there is a sizeable left wing vote for Leave.

We're due Opinium and YouGov today I think. Anyone know what time they are due?

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful. A sensible Guardian journalist:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages?CMP=share_btn_tw

That's what I find so extraordinary about this campaign. People pick out a little bit of Leaving which they like and completely miss the bigger picture.

It's like Mussolini made the trains run on time. We are heading for catastrophy. We will become the world's pariahs.

Estobar said:

Mortimer said:

I'm amazed by how little chatter there is suddenly about the referendum. The Remainians on my Facebook feed have suddenly gone very quiet.

Again, I think this might tie in with what Qriously found: that significant numbers of Remainers have switched to Don't Know. I read that more along the lines of disgust at what has happened and switching off politics for a few days. If this is true I'd expect them to return by Thursday?

We need more polls to know if there's any basis to this.

It's certainly not a voodoo poll. But, they have no track record.

Mr. Daodao, must disagree heartily.

Losing a battle does not mean losing a war. The more the EU integrates the more terrible the consequences will be when it inevitably unravels. (To say nothing of the absence of democratic accountability in the meanwhile).

daodao said:

"A vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"

I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but it will be a significant factor for wavering folk when they enter the polling booth on 23/6/16, given that campaigning has now effectively been suspended until polling day.

It is sad that the EU ref has now been distorted by the tragic action of a mentally derange man, but I now expect, as I have always done, that Remain will win by >10%.

If Remain do win, the UK should stop carping on the sidelines and recognise that it needs to work with other major European countries towards ever closer union.

Please try to understand that having a mental illness is not the same thing as being deranged.

@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.

There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?

What do we have in common?

Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.

Lord Guthrie, former defence chief, has switched sides to Leave:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36565036

He's concerned about the prospect of an EU army.

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

PlatoSaid said:

Estobar said:

PlatoSaid said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful. A sensible Guardian journalist:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages?CMP=share_btn_tw

The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.

Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.

The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.

During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.

Yes. But there are a lot of people who talk Brexit who won't vote Brexit.

Mr. Submarine, I'm not so sure about that.

A General Election is 650 little elections, and we saw from the European elections to the 2015 General Election that the public are quite capable of electing in very different ways at differing elections.

If someone is against an integrated federal EU, would you advocate they vote to Leave?

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

daodao said:

"A vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?"

I am not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but it will be a significant factor for wavering folk when they enter the polling booth on 23/6/16, given that campaigning has now effectively been suspended until polling day.

It is sad that the EU ref has now been distorted by the tragic action of a mentally deranged man, but I now expect, as I have always done, that Remain will win by >10%.

If Remain do win, the UK should stop carping on the sidelines and recognise that it needs to work with other major European countries towards ever closer union.

Sorry your last sentence: I just cannot see happening. Far too many would question the legitimacy. If Remain win ( as I expect ) it's grudging in my view at best. Charging off to closer union is not going to happen.

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

One can easily turn that around. Every civilised Remainer should think long and hard about voting for an EU which will tolerate 50% youth unemployment, an EU that is seeking through its agreement with various internet companies to limit free speech, (something which is out of date, according to our very own NPalmer), an EU that thinks it permissible to lie in pursuit of a greater cause (cf Juncker), an EU that consists of states which contain real fascist parties in them, truly descended from the fascists of WW2 and represented in the EU Parliament, a vote for people like Gerry Adams. Every civilised Remainer should realise that a vote for Remain will be taken by Labour and countless others as a vote for their view of the world, a party led by a man who associates with terrorists and anti-Semites.

See - we can all play this game. The reality is that Remain does not automatically have some sort of moral high ground permitting it to lecture others. No-one does. There are some odd alliances. There are some unpleasant people that I wouldn't give the time of day to. In all votes we find ourselves voting on the same side as people that we have no time for.

But if you allow the bad men in the argument to crowd out the good we all lose. So the good men and women on both sides of the argument need to take control and not allow themselves to be bullied by their opponents seeking to make ad hominen arguments.

There are respectable and honourable reasons for voting either Remain or Leave. There are respectable and honourable people on both sides of the argument. Let's stop pretending that the morality is only on one side. It's not true. It's insulting and the insufferable moral superiority displayed by some while ignoring the beams in their own eyes brings nothing but discredit to their cause.

PlatoSaid said:

Estobar said:

PlatoSaid said:

Casino_Royale said:

Thoughtful. A sensible Guardian journalist:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages?CMP=share_btn_tw

The Guardian has a complete split personality over the EU - much more so than the Times IMHO. I've seen some good Leave pieces in both, but the Guardian ones are more gritty when they do deal with it.

Interesting. Journalistically the Times is pretty abysmal imho. The Telegraph has much better pieces and, despite not agreeing with it, the Guardian.

The Times is my favourite overall - but a few columnists are consistently pathetic, such as Jenni Russell. I can't think of a single piece that's got plaudits. They're usually riddled with cliches, inaccuracies and wishful thinking handwringing. There's also FAR too many space fillers written by the girlfriends and spouses of other columnists. Invariably, they're all bubble dwelling Londoners who agonise about quinoa.

During the referendum, their preference for Remain has been quite noticeable - their readers who comment are 60/40 for Brexit.

The Times has the widest range of columnists in terms of political views. I like that about it as it's important to engage with opinions you don't like or agree with. Where it lets itself down is in its news coverage, which I think is far too affected by the newspaper's backing for the Cameron/Osborne world view.

The Times is also by far the best for sport.

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.

To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.

But that's not the point

There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.

And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.

And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Submarine, I'm not so sure about that.

A General Election is 650 little elections, and we saw from the European elections to the 2015 General Election that the public are quite capable of electing in very different ways at differing elections.

If someone is against an integrated federal EU, would you advocate they vote to Leave?

Feeling the ends don't justify the means is perfectly reasonable. That could apply to someone favouring EU withdrawal who doesn't want to validate this Xenophobic campaign. Or someone who'd love a European polity but hates the current EU enough to vote to leave. Life is very complex and referendums force a binary choice.

BOLLOCKS LIES SCAREMONGERING

I see on PB at least the campaign has resumed

alex. said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

It won't be because of Farage. It will be because Leave have appropriated his political message (something they claimed to be desperate to avoid before the campaign started).

You've hit the nail on the head. We are heading for a right wing coup by some people with a very dubious message

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Mr. Root, we'll find out soon, either way.

Mr. Roger, your fears are exaggerated twice. I think Remain will win, and, if they don't, it will be due to a democratic vote.

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.

CarlottaVance said:

Roger said:

Scott_P said:

After Massie and Toynbee, this is the latest article that Leavers are finding uncomfortable

There are many people I respect and admire voting leave – there are people in my family voting leave. I understand their reasons. But they must stomach the reality that a vote for leave will be taken by Farage and countless others as a vote for him, a vote for his posters, a vote for his ideas, a vote for his quiet malice, a vote for his smallness in the face of vast horrors. Is it worth it?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/united-kingdom-ukip-nigel-farage-leavers

An excellent article by Marina Hyde. One that every civilized Leaver should think long and hard about. Rcs1000 SeanT DavidL..........

Since the Massie article - which has clearly gained traction abroad - and despite coming from a LEAVE publication - there has been a degree of discomfiture and denial among some LEAVErs.

To be clear, I don't think many of them are remotely nasty, or racist, or xenophobes - they are doing what they believe to be the right thing for themselves, their families and the country - from motives I can understand and see as reasonable and fair minded, albeit sometimes contradictory and possibly mis-guided.

But that's not the point

There are factions of the LEAVE campaign who are nasty racist xenophobes - people who applauded Farage's poster, neo-Nazis and the rest.

And however unfair it is (and it is unfair) they - and we - will be tarred by association.

And they can't (or won't) see it - though the vehemence of the protestations does give one pause.....

Oh good

perhaps youd like to explain why Daves sharing a platform with guys who actually did sit down with people who committed murder and ethnic cleansing and egged them on.

when you're standing in the swamp with the rest of them that's not the moral high ground.

Cyclefree said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

@Cyclefree - I've certainly felt very isolated in my social group (AB professional graduates in London/SE) over the last few months.

There are only two other close friends voting Leave out of my immediate/extended social group of c.20 close friends. Two are very reluctant Remainers. So we must be on, what, 15%?

What do we have in common?

Values. We believe things like sovereignty, democracy and nations matter.

I think Remainers care about exactly the same things. They just have different views on them. I see this referendum, for example, as a democratic exercise in a sovereign country. But day to day, I believe it's in our best interests to cede sovereignty in certain areas. I understand that you think differently.

I am a great believer in sharing power to achieve things which can best be done collectively. I think the EU has gone beyond that alas. But it is a very finely balanced decision in my view. It is less - for me anyway - about the position now, with which I could just about live and more about where the EU is going and whether I think Britain should go there too.

BTW judging by your posts, I think we must have been living in Spain at around the same time. Were you in Barcelona?

Lleida. Or Lerida as it was then.

Mr. Jonathan, if you mean in terms of securing a referendum, I think that's right.

But the key players have been Gove, Boris and Leadsom. Boris gave Leave much needed impetus, Gove performed well at the early Sky Q&A, and Leadsom (apparently) was rather good at the six-way debate.

Gisela Stuart's also been a significant asset for Leave.

Meanwhile as PB debates if Nigel Farage is the new Franco, the Germans contiinue the path to Euro banking Union on Friday next week.


http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/bankenunion-schaeuble-bremst-eu-einlagensicherung-14293604.html

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Tell lies about Turkey joining the EU in campaign literature and interviews, then make promises about more public spending, higher wages and cheaper housing if we leave the EU in debates. I'd call that the height of cynicism.

Capital Economics (and I believe rcs) both believe Leaving would improve the public finances by savings on EU membership contributions, if not in the short-term. Stuart Rose thinks it will lead to higher wages. George Osborne thinks it will lead to a fall in house prices. Controlling immigration will have positive economic effects for some, and negatives for others.

It is Government policy to encourage Turkish membership. I can't see it happening any time soon (and have said on here before I think the UK policy is to be in favour in theory, rather than in practice) but given it's an official EU candidate, nothing can be ruled out for good.

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Cameron knowingly told lies about Turkey's imminent EU membership, in earlier negotiations with Turkey when it suited him to play up the prospect of Turkey joining. Gove has a reasonable excuse that he is merely taking Cameron at his word.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jonathan, if you mean in terms of securing a referendum, I think that's right.

But the key players have been Gove, Boris and Leadsom. Boris gave Leave much needed impetus, Gove performed well at the early Sky Q&A, and Leadsom (apparently) was rather good at the six-way debate.

Gisela Stuart's also been a significant asset for Leave.

He obtained the vote and framed the debate. If leave win, some future right wing government will put Lord Farage on the £1000 note. Wont buy you a pint though.

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

YellowSubmarine said:

Pulling of Brexit will be a stunning political achievement. Perhaps the most stunning achievement since 1945. Farage got us the Referendum. Leave will have won it by using a Diet Coke version of the Farage formula. That's fine. It's voters decision and responsibility lies with us alone. However it seems perfectly reasonable to me to observe that ( a ) External observers will see this as a victory for the Farage view of the world. Because it will be. ( B ) that the wider political agenda of those that have driven Brexit will be emboldened if they win. You might not care about this or think it's a good thing. That's fine. But if you don't it's a perfectly valid reason to cast a Remain vote.

If we win, it will be because of Michael Gove. Not Farage.

And the lies Gove has knowingly told and endorsed about Turkey's imminent EU membership?

Both sides have exaggerated.

But Michael Gove has been making a very positive case in the debates.

Michael Gove is very much part of the dog-whistling campaign that Leave have conducted. To be fair Boris has not lowered himself to the standards of most of the Leave campaign.