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  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    God, I hope they cancel Question Time tonight.

    It surely has to be delayed? Same goes for This Week (or at least remove all the jokey aspects).
    This Week is a by-election special on until 2am
    Yeah, I expect it to be very sombre.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    Anorak said:

    pbr2013 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    pbr2013 said:

    Spain already puts huge pressure on Gibraltar to my knowledge. Being in the EU has not stopped that. Surely the solution is to have appropriate defence measures in place, and let the potential agressor know you're prepared to use them, not staying in the EU in the hope this will make them be a bit nicer. It's like giving a bully your lunch money.

    If we Leave, Spain remain's a NATO ally of ours.

    However, the real risk for Gibraltar is if the UK leaves the single market, given how the economy of the rock has evolved into financial services since the MoD massively scaled down its presence there from the late 80s onwards. I think the economy used to be 60% defence.

    Therefore, I think Gib would need to stay in the EEA, at least or be given massive support to become an offshore haven - like a European Caymans, for instance - with a global outlook.

    I don't know what the long term solution with Spain is. Inside or outside the EU they will continue to be a massive pain in the arse about it.
    Maybe they can have Gib back when they return Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco.
    Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing, is it not?
    Talk to a Spaniard though, and that's "different".
    Why? Really, I'm curious as to the mental gymnastics involved here.
    Spanish post-Franco constitution settlement innit. Same way as it is "impossible" for Catalonia to secede. They are only a few decades out of actual fascistic dictatorship. Love 'em but they still have a bit of catching up to do. SO of this parish is more informed than me.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,181
    It is just over sixteen years ago when Nigel Jones, the Lib Dem MP for Cheltenham, was attacked by a lunatic with a samurai sword. Andy Pennington, a local councilor who was helping Nigel in the surgery at the time, was killed. My Dad was also a councilor at the time and had done that duty with Nigel. It could have been him. Andy was a friend, and his posthumously winning the George Medal for bravery did not bring him back. He was killed two days before his fortieth birthday. Today's attack brought that back.

    It is a reminder that all of those who campaign for what they believe in- as Jo Cox so clearly did- deserve respect and admiration, and not the contempt we usually pour on them.

    Politics needs respect, reason and scepticism, not anger, hatred and a contempt for expert thinking.

    RIP Jo Cox MP.
    RIP Councillor Andy Pennington.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    RobD said:

    God, I hope they cancel Question Time tonight.

    It surely has to be delayed? Same goes for This Week (or at least remove all the jokey aspects).
    This Week is a by-election special on until 2am
    Well I hope it's not going too be a dirge on the death of Jo Cox. We all need cheering up now.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited June 2016
    This is a total tradegy . The family must be devestated. A total absolute waste of a young life and one that did so much for others.

    Brendan Cox
    "She would want only two things now. the best for her children and a fight against the hatred that killed her"
    BBC News 2 minutes ago.

    Let's make sure between us all both of those things happen........
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Care in the community....

    http://tinyurl.com/gqwra8c
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    MikeK said:

    RobD said:

    God, I hope they cancel Question Time tonight.

    It surely has to be delayed? Same goes for This Week (or at least remove all the jokey aspects).
    This Week is a by-election special on until 2am
    Well I hope it's not going too be a dirge on the death of Jo Cox. We all need cheering up now.
    The Week and QT have both been cancelled

    BBC Question Time Retweeted
    BBC News Press Team ‏@BBCNewsPR 16m16 minutes ago
    In light of the death of MP Jo Cox & resulting suspension of EU Ref campaigning, tonight's @BBCQuestionTime & @bbcthisweek are cancelled.
    262 retweets 141 likes
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    John_N4 said:

    weejonnie said:

    Scott_P said:

    @David_Cameron: It's right that all campaigning has been stopped after the terrible attack on Jo Cox. I won't go ahead with tonight's rally in Gibraltar.

    Quite right and the correct thing to do - I wonder who paid for his flight though...
    Oh come on!! If that's not Cameron capitalising on the shooting, what on earth is it?
    Cancelling a rallt in the most remaun inclined constituency is hardly capitalising on it.

    Calm down.

    Exactly
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016
    We don't know what happened. Let the police get on with it.

    https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/743464352066453504
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    tlg86 said:

    Care in the community....

    http://tinyurl.com/gqwra8c

    He sounds unusually fluent.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    RodCrosby said:

    John_N4 said:

    Dreadful news :(

    If she was DOA, then the story that she was fighting for her life in hospital was a lie. Politics is dirty.

    Hopeful rumours always swirl in such situations.
    FFS. Modern trauma medicine can perform things that would have been regarded a miracles a generation ago. She was helicopterd to LGI. They would have done everything possible before calling it.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    BBC news reporting that he also attacked another man who also sustained injuries but these are non life threatening at this time.
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553

    David Wooding ‏@DavidWooding 3 mins3 minutes ago London, England

    Earlier I posted BBC report which said man who shot Jo Cox shouted "Britain First". Doubts now cast on his words.

    The Telegraph have removed all reference to it.

    Those spreading it at a time like this should have known better, those using it to gain political advantage are beneath contempt.

    It may or may not be true but time will tell and the last thing the police need is unsubstantiated gossip clouding their search for the truth.
    Eagles has delete it.
    Job done. Everyone has heard it.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    RIP Jo Cox,awful news.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    The picture which seems to be emerging is that Jo Cox intervened in a pre-existing altercation.
  • John_N4 said:

    David Wooding ‏@DavidWooding 3 mins3 minutes ago London, England

    Earlier I posted BBC report which said man who shot Jo Cox shouted "Britain First". Doubts now cast on his words.

    The Telegraph have removed all reference to it.

    Those spreading it at a time like this should have known better, those using it to gain political advantage are beneath contempt.

    It may or may not be true but time will tell and the last thing the police need is unsubstantiated gossip clouding their search for the truth.
    Eagles has delete it.
    Job done. Everyone has heard it.
    I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was emotional (after all the deceased was probably well known to her) but this shows the danger of rushing to tweet.

    As things stand we just don't know. We have eyewitnesses apparently saying he did say it we have eyewitnesses saying he didn't.

    However anyone intentionally trying to gain political advantage from it is beneath contempt and would be wise to remember what happened to the Spanish government after they tried to make political capital vs the basque nationalists out of the Spanish train bombings
  • RealBritainRealBritain Posts: 255
    John_N4 said:

    David Wooding ‏@DavidWooding 3 mins3 minutes ago London, England

    Earlier I posted BBC report which said man who shot Jo Cox shouted "Britain First". Doubts now cast on his words.

    The Telegraph have removed all reference to it.

    Those spreading it at a time like this should have known better, those using it to gain political advantage are beneath contempt.

    It may or may not be true but time will tell and the last thing the police need is unsubstantiated gossip clouding their search for the truth.
    Eagles has delete it.
    Job done. Everyone has heard it.
    I have to comment on the fact that you're repeatedly implying this is unattributed propaganda, or a campaign. Different articles have reported different witnesses as stating this ; the police will give their own fuller account soon enough.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
  • GravitationGravitation Posts: 281
    pbr2013 said:

    The picture which seems to be emerging is that Jo Cox intervened in a pre-existing altercation.

    Where did you hear that? Not doubting you but with so much speculation would be good to know.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    RobD said:

    God, I hope they cancel Question Time tonight.

    It surely has to be delayed? Same goes for This Week (or at least remove all the jokey aspects).
    This Week is a by-election special on until 2am
    Well I hope it's not going too be a dirge on the death of Jo Cox. We all need cheering up now.
    The Week and QT have both been cancelled

    BBC Question Time Retweeted
    BBC News Press Team ‏@BBCNewsPR 16m16 minutes ago
    In light of the death of MP Jo Cox & resulting suspension of EU Ref campaigning, tonight's @BBCQuestionTime & @bbcthisweek are cancelled.
    262 retweets 141 likes
    Well that's a shame, it shows how hollow the mores of modern Britain has become. There were days of horror and death weeks on end when I was a lad in London in 1940 and Carry On Working was more than just a slogan. Nothing was allowed to get in the way of jokes and laughter with "ITMA" and "In Town Tonight". True some of the news was heavily edited, all of us could see where the bombs had fallen in the morning after a raid.

    Cancelling This Week is a crime of weakness just on the day that we need it.

    Mind you, I won't miss QT.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    RobD said:

    God, I hope they cancel Question Time tonight.

    It surely has to be delayed? Same goes for This Week (or at least remove all the jokey aspects).
    This Week is a by-election special on until 2am
    Well I hope it's not going too be a dirge on the death of Jo Cox. We all need cheering up now.
    The Week and QT have both been cancelled

    BBC Question Time Retweeted
    BBC News Press Team ‏@BBCNewsPR 16m16 minutes ago
    In light of the death of MP Jo Cox & resulting suspension of EU Ref campaigning, tonight's @BBCQuestionTime & @bbcthisweek are cancelled.
    262 retweets 141 likes
    Well that's a shame, it shows how hollow the mores of modern Britain has become. There were days of horror and death weeks on end when I was a lad in London in 1940 and Carry On Working was more than just a slogan. Nothing was allowed to get in the way of jokes and laughter with "ITMA" and "In Town Tonight". True some of the news was heavily edited, all of us could see where the bombs had fallen in the morning after a raid.

    Cancelling This Week is a crime of weakness just on the day that we need it.

    Mind you, I won't miss QT.
    I think the difference between now and then is that the war was continuous, so very hard to justify cancelling things like today.
  • pbr2013 said:

    The picture which seems to be emerging is that Jo Cox intervened in a pre-existing altercation.

    Where did you hear that? Not doubting you but with so much speculation would be good to know.
    I have seen it reported but later reports seem to imply that the other person was trying to restrain him and prevent the attack on the MP. We just don't know and there is little point speculating.

    All we know for sure is that this lady was killed and another person was injured (not seriously) in the fracas either before or after the main attack.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @MikeK This is only the fifth sitting MP since the Second World War to have been murdered (and the first woman MP ever to have been murdered). This is shocking and terrible, and not just a private tragedy - which undoubtedly it is - but also a blot on our civic life. It seems entirely fitting to me as a mark of respect that normal politics should be suspended for a while.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    RobD said:

    John_N4 said:

    Dreadful news :(

    If she was DOA, then the story that she was fighting for her life in hospital was a lie. Politics is dirty.

    Telegraph reporting Drs did fight to save her life, but she died an hour after the attack.
    I remember Fabrice Muamba saying he was technically dead for over an hour before his heart was shocked into beating again.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118290/Fabrice-Muamba-dead-78-minutes-shocked-15-times-heart-beating-again.html

    The paramedics and doctors were doing the fighting for an hour, by the sounds of it.
    I was unfortunate enough to be part of a stretcher team on a rig in Norway many years ago where a colleague of ours was hit by a section of falling pipe which removed most of the back of his head. He was suspended in a riding belt over the sea but after we got him to the sickbay the medic and an American friend of mine who was a paramedic for his town back home managed to keep him alive for two hours. He died as we were getting him on the chopper. At the time I simply couldn't see any way he could survive but that didn't stop them trying for two hours.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    edited June 2016

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    Factually, that is correct. Less in poverty, fewer deaths in wars.

    What really worries me about the future is values; things like free speech, democracy and the powers that be being scared of the voters, not the other way round.

    Are we preferred to fight for those? Or would be happy for a quiet life and just a bit of extra cash?

    If you think that's hyperbole, taken a bit further, that's pretty much what China looks like, and not that many of them are unhappy about it. And that's where the centre of economic gravity is likely to shift in future. *Except* those in Hong Kong, who know how important it is.

    We did that.

    That's why I think it's so so important Britain sets the best example it can to everyone in the world of what we stand for, show we're prepared to fight for it, and practice what we preach.

    The future shape of humanity is at stake.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    People are now reporting that this man had mental health problems. Whilst forst at this time our thoughts are with the family please bear in mind the facts of violence and mental health.

    http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/news-media/media-advisory-service/help-journalists/violence-mental-health-problems
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    @MikeK This is only the fifth sitting MP since the Second World War to have been murdered (and the first woman MP ever to have been murdered). This is shocking and terrible, and not just a private tragedy - which undoubtedly it is - but also a blot on our civic life. It seems entirely fitting to me as a mark of respect that normal politics should be suspended for a while.

    Entirely agree. Politics should have passion, but it has no place for violence. A time for all to reflect on what we want to be as a body politic.
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    @MikeK This is only the fifth sitting MP since the Second World War to have been murdered (and the first woman MP ever to have been murdered). This is shocking and terrible, and not just a private tragedy - which undoubtedly it is - but also a blot on our civic life. It seems entirely fitting to me as a mark of respect that normal politics should be suspended for a while.

    I find myself agreeing with Mr Meeks for the first time. What a truly terrible day. :(
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016


    I have to comment on the fact that you're repeatedly implying this is unattributed propaganda, or a campaign. Different articles have reported different witnesses as stating this ; the police will give their own fuller account soon enough.

    Maria Eagle attributed the information to who exactly?

    And I've commented on those reports, so there is little point telling me of their existence.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    edited June 2016

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Do we know if she was murdered because she was an MP, or because someone had a personal disagreement with her?

    The answer to that question makes a big difference to whether this is an 'attack on democracy' or simply a murder of someone who happens to be in public life.

    I feel awfully sorry for her husband and children. I hope the perpetrator gets the mental help he clearly needs.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Ah so juvrnile excitement then .
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been

    The depends on whether you are a human or an endangered species. But for humans, pretty much the safest and least aggressive age.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    @MikeK This is only the fifth sitting MP since the Second World War to have been murdered (and the first woman MP ever to have been murdered). This is shocking and terrible, and not just a private tragedy - which undoubtedly it is - but also a blot on our civic life. It seems entirely fitting to me as a mark of respect that normal politics should be suspended for a while.

    Well said.
    I am totally shocked by what has happened,feel very upset for her family,and now is very definitely a time to suspend all political activity for a while.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,921
    RIP Jo Cox. Awful news today.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Very sad news indeed . It was January 2000 when Nigel Jones Lib Dem MP for Cheltenham was attacked with a machete and seriously injured and his aide Andrew Pennington killed ,His attacker was originally found mentally unfit to stand trial but eventually did so and was found guilty of attempted murder and manslaughter .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    This is so dreadful and such a loss to her family and the Nation. I am not interested in making political comments at this time and when the campaign restarts maybe everyone will be kinder to each other
  • El_DaveEl_Dave Posts: 145

    Do we know if she was murdered because she was an MP, or because someone had a personal disagreement with her?

    The answer to that question makes a big difference to whether this is an 'attack on democracy' or simply a murder of someone who happens to be in public life.

    I feel awfully sorry for her husband and children. I hope the perpetrator gets the mental help he clearly needs.

    The Telegraph are reporting that the attacker had a history of mental health problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    tlg86 said:

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
    So if he'd allegedly been shouting 'Allah Akbar' that should be hushed up too?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    In the next century or so the chance will come to minimise our effects of the rest of the planet.

    Humanity will peak around 2100 and then decline in numbers ( assuming of course we don't learn how to live forever ). With kinder technologies and more people off the breadline the planet could start to work toweards a new equilibrium.
  • ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    What sort of mentally ill man can obtain a gun? Or was it homemade as was suggested by someone who saw the attack? In which case, where on earth do you learn the skills to do that?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    @MikeK This is only the fifth sitting MP since the Second World War to have been murdered (and the first woman MP ever to have been murdered). This is shocking and terrible, and not just a private tragedy - which undoubtedly it is - but also a blot on our civic life. It seems entirely fitting to me as a mark of respect that normal politics should be suspended for a while.

    Agreed. Whilst I tend not to have too much sympathy for public officials about press intrusion and the like, they do put themselves up as targets for such attacks. Leaving aside the broad political perspective I think the vast majority of MPs are excellent constituency MPs. Aside from the obvious impact this has on her family and friends, it is a sad day for politics in our country.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Scott_P said:

    @paul__johnson: Jo Cox's maiden speech to Parliament - on the benefits of immigration. 'We celebrate our diversity.'
    https://t.co/4U8Dhv9XdC

    You try to make a political point out of this?

    Shame on you.


  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Thrak said:

    What sort of mentally ill man can obtain a gun? Or was it homemade as was suggested by someone who saw the attack? In which case, where on earth do you learn the skills to do that?

    I suppose either the internet or previous military experience.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    Thrak said:

    What sort of mentally ill man can obtain a gun? Or was it homemade as was suggested by someone who saw the attack? In which case, where on earth do you learn the skills to do that?

    Maybe he bought a homemade gun?

    Who knows.
  • Floater said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paul__johnson: Jo Cox's maiden speech to Parliament - on the benefits of immigration. 'We celebrate our diversity.'
    https://t.co/4U8Dhv9XdC

    You try to make a political point out of this?

    Shame on you.


    No he didnt, he just posted the tweet and has since apologised if anything more than that came across
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.

    As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    tlg86 said:

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
    So if he'd allegedly been shouting 'Allah Akbar' that should be hushed up too?
    Carlotta can you drop the subject please.
  • Robert_EveRobert_Eve Posts: 31

    Question Time cancelled.

    Permanently I hope.
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    tlg86 said:

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
    Yes we should - we should speculate as early as possible, starting before a media narrative has gelled.

    I would certainly have questioned "Allahu Akhbar" reports the same way as I questioned ""Britain First" reports. The fact that reports of Islamic shouting by the Leytonstone tube station stabber were circulated without proper substantiation was very present in my mind.
  • tlg86 said:

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
    So if he'd allegedly been shouting 'Allah Akbar' that should be hushed up too?
    It probably would have been gleefully reported in some quarters while still an unsubstantiated rumour - and would have reflected just as badly if not proven or there was more to it than that.

    Guido has edited his post to remove the reference to the phrase.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    John_M said:

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.

    As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
    We're not healthier. This is a myth. Chronic disease has massively grown in the past century.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Heh. Alex Massie has written a disgusting article about Jo Cox's tragic death. I shan't dignify it with a link. But I'm disillusioned and disappointed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I wish we could go back to yesterdays' "Battle on the Thames" :(

    Daft as it was it did give me and I'm sure many others a good laugh.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. SE, I quite agree. Almost everyone's responded with dignity.

    Then we have 45 minutes of bullshit from Campbell. He's a disgrace (he was before this, mind).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
    So if he'd allegedly been shouting 'Allah Akbar' that should be hushed up too?
    I know we give the mainstream media a kicking sometimes, but one thing I think should distinguish them is their ability to hold fire. There are no prizes to be won for being the first to break the news in these cases.

    I appreciate that people on here and social media are just repeating what they've read on mainstream media websites. So I wouldn't hold anything against anyone on here.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    Question Time cancelled.

    Permanently I hope.
    Amen to that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Pulpstar said:

    I wish we could go back to yesterdays' "Battle on the Thames" :(

    Daft as it was it did give me and I'm sure many others a good laugh.

    Apparenly the MPs husband was with captain pugwash yesterday.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    MP_SE said:
    Particularly since he has a history of mental health problems himself.

    There is some good in Alastair Campbell, but there is a nasty dark side to him as well.

    At times, he can sink low. Very very low.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    John_M said:

    Heh. Alex Massie has written a disgusting article about Jo Cox's tragic death. I shan't dignify it with a link. But I'm disillusioned and disappointed.

    Body isn't even cold and he's writing that. Shocking.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    In the next century or so the chance will come to minimise our effects of the rest of the planet.

    Humanity will peak around 2100 and then decline in numbers ( assuming of course we don't learn how to live forever ). With kinder technologies and more people off the breadline the planet could start to work toweards a new equilibrium.

    In the next century or so the chance will come to minimise our effects of the rest of the planet.

    Humanity will peak around 2100 and then decline in numbers ( assuming of course we don't learn how to live forever ). With kinder technologies and more people off the breadline the planet could start to work toweards a new equilibrium.

    That excites me as well. And I want to work towards a world of free liberal democracies.

    We will get there. But it will require courage and very hard work along the way.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2016
    Didn't think my opinion of Alastair Campbell could get any lower. Someone please take his phone off him.
  • tlg86 said:

    We don't know what happened - we only know what was reported in the immediate aftermath.

    Even if the attacker did shout 'Britain First' we don't know what he meant by it, or whether it had any relationship whatsoever to the party of that name or the current referendum.

    However, I do wonder if those complaining loudest about the 'Britain First' report would be doing the same if the report was that he shouted 'Allah Akbar' instead?

    keep back pedalling
    I'm not back pedalling at all - the reports were what the reports were - truth is the daughter of time.....
    Basically, people shouldn't speculate on these things - too quickly anyway.
    So if he'd allegedly been shouting 'Allah Akbar' that should be hushed up too?
    It probably would have been gleefully reported in some quarters while still an unsubstantiated rumour - and would have reflected just as badly if not proven or there was more to it than that.

    Guido has edited his post to remove the reference to the phrase.

    It's in bold letters as the top story on the Mail site.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    MP_SE said:
    Particularly since he has a history of mental health problems himself.

    There is some good in Alastair Campbell, but there is a nasty dark side to him as well.

    At times, he can sink low. Very very low.
    Dr David Kelly low.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    John_M said:

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.

    As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
    We're not healthier. This is a myth. Chronic disease has massively grown in the past century.
    And this serves as a good example of what I mean. Longevity up, infant mortality down, population up. I think most people have a basic goal of 'not dying'. The fact that people can live with chronic illnesses that would have killed them even a decade ago is testament to our progress.

    UK life expectancy has risen by a decade in my lifetime. That's genuinely amazing.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    Truly truly awful news about Jo Cox.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    edited June 2016

    I want to work towards a world of free liberal democracies.

    Good luck with that, Tony.
  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    If I may muse. Someone yesterday posted about how odd it felt to be on the same side iof people who where on the other side in the referendum debate/row compared to 2015 or the sindy ref. I have the same feeling. Some on the left who I previously felt antagonistic to have expressed views that I violently agree with. Conversely, some on my previous side now look loathsome. I always regarded Corbin as one of the most despicable politicians in the country but his statement today about Jo Cox moved me.

    If there is a re-alignment in British politics coming up there might be some unlikely bedfellows.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    John_M said:

    Heh. Alex Massie has written a disgusting article about Jo Cox's tragic death. I shan't dignify it with a link. But I'm disillusioned and disappointed.

    "It’s not Nigel Farage’s fault Jo Cox is dead." - I'm glad he cleared that up for us.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    John_M said:

    Heh. Alex Massie has written a disgusting article about Jo Cox's tragic death. I shan't dignify it with a link. But I'm disillusioned and disappointed.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    DavidL said:

    That is really moving. Well said Corbyn.
    I listened to him on Sky.

    .His comments were indeed warm and wonderful
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    John_M said:

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.

    As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
    We're not healthier. This is a myth. Chronic disease has massively grown in the past century.
    Isnt that due to longer life expectancy ?

    When you're popping your clogs aged 35 you dont get older peoples ailments
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    2-0 Northern Ireland, well done.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    MaxPB said:

    It could be because I've had a few, but I feel both sadness and utter fury at those who would commit such acts of violence. I want the perpetrator eliminated.

    I am in a similar state and share your views.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    yes! 2-0

    I want the odds on an all Ireland final
  • Come home from helping at the Tooting by-election. Doesn't seem much point now.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    As an Englishman by birth, Northern Irish by marriage, today has been a good day's football.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I don't think there's any "probably" about it. More people have happy, healthy lives that any time in history.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    edited June 2016
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    DanSmith said:

    To be honest unless this guy was pictured with his arm round farage or something I dont think it is relevant.

    Britain First is little to do with the EU and leaving would likely bring in more of their non preferred guests not less.

    Those trying to link the referendum to it will be judged harshly by the public I expect

    Yeah I agree, maybe if the allegation was that he shouted "UKIP" loads it would be relevant, but I suspect most of the general public have never even heard of Britain First.
    Whilst today is tragic for her family and a very sad day for democracy, it is a totally unifying event for all those who believe in democracy, from whichever side of the divide. We can all rally around one flag - that violence is never the answer to disagreement.
    Amen Mark. Amen.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Floater said:

    MaxPB said:

    It could be because I've had a few, but I feel both sadness and utter fury at those who would commit such acts of violence. I want the perpetrator eliminated.

    I am in a similar state and share your views.
    I have also decided to have a drink,and contemplate, very sad day indeed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Better, regardless of which candidate you were campaigning for, there is a point. Democracy is worth campaigning for, and participating in. We ought not take it for granted.

    You did good work today, and a senseless murder does not change that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    tlg86 said:

    John_M said:

    Heh. Alex Massie has written a disgusting article about Jo Cox's tragic death. I shan't dignify it with a link. But I'm disillusioned and disappointed.

    "It’s not Nigel Farage’s fault Jo Cox is dead." - I'm glad he cleared that up for us.
    There are some on the Remain side who are seeking to make capital out of this. Some are embarrassingly well known names. There are, to their credit, many more who are not and would not dream of so doing.

    The former need to be very, very careful what they say. It could easily backfire for them. Badly.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    GIN1138 said:
    I hope for his sake that's the booze talking.
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    edited June 2016
    Fact: Question Time has been cancelled.

    Fact: Leave were widely viewed as having taken the lead in the polls following the ITV referendum debate and the performance of David Cameron and Nigel Farage answering a TV audience's questions

    Fact: Juncker issued his "This is so dreadful, and I care so much about Jo Cox" message before her death had even been announced.

    Question: which side benefits from Question Time being cancelled?

    D'you know what? I dont think it should have been cancelled. They could easily have shown their respect by having a one-minute silence for Mrs Cox at the beginning.

    Politics is dirty. What happens is that one side acts in a certain way (stopping their explicit campaigning), constraining the other side to act in a certain way. Or one side realises what weapon the other side can play and gets its own statement in first. I repeat: politics is dirty. That doesn't get negated by the fact that almost all of us who come to this website are united in abhorring the murder of Mrs Cox.

    Regarding the first-period reporting... Thomas Mair seems to be a very different kind of person from Anders Breivik, but one interesting parallel is that the "Britain First" story connects with the notion of a link between him and the organisation called Britain First (which recently held a "training camp" in Snowdonia), which link may well turn out to be either completely non-existent or if existent then not at all straightforward, while with Anders Breivik a similar statement could be made about the idea that he had a link with "Lionheart" Paul Ray in Malta. In neither case does the pysops strikes me as anything other than professional.
  • GIN1138 said:
    A truly nasty piece of work is Campbell.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Thrak said:

    What sort of mentally ill man can obtain a gun? Or was it homemade as was suggested by someone who saw the attack? In which case, where on earth do you learn the skills to do that?

    It really isn't difficult to get a gun. There are lots of dark web stores that will accept your bitcoins and mail it to you in pieces so that you don't get caught.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    John_M said:

    John_M said:

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.

    As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
    We're not healthier. This is a myth. Chronic disease has massively grown in the past century.
    And this serves as a good example of what I mean. Longevity up, infant mortality down, population up. I think most people have a basic goal of 'not dying'. The fact that people can live with chronic illnesses that would have killed them even a decade ago is testament to our progress.

    UK life expectancy has risen by a decade in my lifetime. That's genuinely amazing.
    No, the huge rise in the incidence of chronic disease - cancer, asthma, diabetes, heart disease is not testament to progress, it's testament to the shocking decline in the Western diet and other environmental factors. The fact we have new (usually expensive) chemical and surgical therapies to help us live with these conditions is an inevitable consequence of the march of time - we can't have less medicines can we? What we need to be doing is aiming at health, not just limping from sickness to sickness. For that, people need to be aware of the complexities of their bodies, and not subcontract responsibility for their health to the food industry, the NHS, and the pharmaceutical industry. Because as with politics, just because they have white coats and shiny offices, doesn't mean they know, or even want what's best for you. It's the 'experts' issue again.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    John_M said:

    nunu said:

    Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.

    the world is probably the best it's ever been
    I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.

    As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
    We're not healthier. This is a myth. Chronic disease has massively grown in the past century.
    That's because we'e not dropping dead at 65. Increased chronic disease levels are just a consequence of us all living longer.*

    * With the exception of diabetes.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited June 2016
    BBC Look Norths Harry Gration and their crime correspondent , have stated three times
    what he shouted at the scene, on the 6:30 local news.
    Truly shocking .
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    yes! 2-0

    I want the odds on an all Ireland final

    I'll give you 12-1.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    MP_SE said:
    Campbell reminds us all why we dislike him so.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    In other news, the BA lounge at T5 is still first rate.
This discussion has been closed.