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Sort-of on-topic, this is a very interesting article by Matt d'Ancona on the intellectual and political history of the Leave campaign:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/15/brexit-how-a-fringe-idea-took-hold-tory-party
On the day that I saw [Matthew] Elliott, the papers were full of allegations – later convincingly denied – that Sir Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary, has been denying key papers to senior ministers who support Brexit. Elliott was in no doubt: “If this turns into a referendum between the establishment and the people, we will win. By miles.”0 -
What's she done now?FrancisUrquhart said:Louise Louise Louise Louise Louise Louise Louise
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I am hoping this is the safe word to make it stop...Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
Has Crosby disowned this campaign? I would backpedal away from this as fast as my little legs would go if I were him....FrancisUrquhart said:
Its he tory GE campaign 2010 (Osborne led) vs 2015 (Crosby led)...SeanT said:Whatever happens, win or lose, we can now conclude that REMAIN has fought one of the most incompetent, blundering, imbecilic campaigns in all of British political history.
Going into this vote they had everything on their side, from the BBC to the BoE, the IMF to the IFS, the unions and the guardianista and the luvvies and big business and Richard bloody Branson and Barack bloody Obama. And they started with 25 point phone poll leads.
It was only a month ago that dribbling twits like Nabavi and Meeks were insisting that REMAIN was playing a brilliant game, and Mike SMITHSON laughed at LEAVE any chance he could.
What happened, guys? What happened to your campaign? How did it come to this? - LOSING, with a week to go.
Historians will study this debacle for decades, whoever wins.0 -
It is an extrapolation from rigged economic forecasting. If GDP is x less then the deficit will by y higher in z years. Cargo cult stuff.HurstLlama said:I am at a bit of a loss and hope the PB brains trust can help. I am told that in the event of a leave vote there will suddenly open up a £30bn black hole in the nation's accounts. However, nobody has said why.
I have a car that was made in Japan, I have a phone that comes from a Korean company. the wine at lunch came from New Zealand, I type on a keyboard that was made in China onto a computer that was assembled in the UK from parts that were manufactured in the Far East. Almost nothing in my life has anything to do with the EU, but I am asked to believe that if we vote to leave the world will some how change for the worse, overnight needing an emergency budget, a rise in income tax and the slashing of health, education and defence budgets.
I am as always open to reasoned arguments, so please tell me where this mighty black hole is going to come from. What is this economic shock that will hit the UK if its electors vote the way that the great and the good don't like?0 -
The assassination of the Empress...pbr2013 said:
And Sissy.RodCrosby said:Re A-H: There was a smell of death about the place.
The fossil as Emperor...
Mayerling...
The assassination of the Empress...
More assassinations in the Balkans [the Obrenovićs, then Franz Ferdinand]...
Even Strauss's music is melancholy and wistful, like there was a premonition... "This can't last, so let's have a final waltz..."
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6. Nothing to sell. Not one positive idea in favour of the EU has come out of this campaign. It has all been predicated on "yes, we know it's shit, but...."Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.0 -
Not in 2016, 18-19 pts the highest.SeanT said:And they started with 25 point phone poll leads.
The Wiki page paints quite a striking red (Leave lead) & green (Remain lead) picture.
http://tinyurl.com/hdx23f30 -
Germany's patent system basically mirrors the US in terms of quality of patents it lets through - especially when it comes to technology. The UPC is Germany forcing it's patent standards onto the rest of Europe.SouthamObserver said:
The EPO does not wave through US patents. That's just a matter of fact. There is, for example, a different standard of patentability in Europe to the US.
If you lose a case you will not have lost a case to a dodgy patent. You will have lost to one that has first been examined by the EPO and then, once again, during the court proceedings. I am afraid that if you are found to have infringed there is a price to pay. However, that has nothing to do with patent trolls.
Patent trolls make their money by asserting low quality patents and asking for licensing fees that are below the amount it would take to fight a case. They essentially exploit the cost of litigating in the US and the system's many failings in terms of pleading requirements, forum selection and so on. They count on people figuring that it's easier to settle than it is to go to court. Even if a troll loses in court (and very few actually go that far), they do not have to bear any of the costs of the other side. So, a defendant is always looking at paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars whatever happens. If the offer to settle is tens of thousands, then that is an option that may very reluctantly take. In any case, there has been recent legislation and a number of decisons that have substantially reduced the incentives to be a troll in the US.
None of the things that make trolling an option in the US apply in Europe.0 -
Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
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Dr. Prasannan, getting sacked by Cameron might actually help May's prospects succeeding him.0
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BMG have tweeted this morning saying poll results attributed to them are in fact a hoax and untrue. The poll showed Leave in front by 45% vs 41% Remain.
Awkward if BMG real results later today are also 45% LEAVE v 41% REMAIN.0 -
I wonder why those who voted Remain in 1975 are now overwhelmingly going to vote Leave in 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm not. The Spectator backed Leave in 1975. Wrong then, wrong nowKentRising said:
I genuinely am. I thought they'd be too Establishment Tory to back Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:The Speccie are backing Brexit. I'm shocked
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/
itter.com/spectator/status/7430810100956078090 -
Austria-Hungary is the flavour of the day...
"Since 1975 the EU has mutated in exactly the way we then feared and now resembles nothing so much as the Habsburg Empire in its dying days. A bloated bureaucracy that has outgrown all usefulness. A parliament that represents many nations, but with no democratic legitimacy. Countries on its periphery pitched into poverty, or agitating for secession. The EU’s hunger for power has been matched only by its incompetence. The European Union is making the people of our continent poorer, and less free."
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/0 -
No, it's not. The EPO is not a German institution. In fact, it is not even an EU institution. It is generally regarded to issue the highest quality patent in the world. The German litigation system is entirely different to the US one. It is civil law, for start; and about a tenth of the price to use.Alistair said:
Germany's patent system basically mirrors the US in terms of quality of patents it lets through - especially when it comes to technology. The UPC is Germany forcing it's patent standards onto the rest of Europe.SouthamObserver said:
The EPO does not wave through US patents. That's just a matter of fact. There is, for example, a different standard of patentability in Europe to the US.
If you lose a case you will not have lost a case to a dodgy patent. You will have lost to one that has first been examined by the EPO and then, once again, during the court proceedings. I am afraid that if you are found to have infringed there is a price to pay. However, that has nothing to do with patent trolls.
Patent trolls make their money by asserting low quality patents and asking for licensing fees that are below the amount it would take to fight a case. They essentially exploit the cost of litigating in the US and the system's many failings in terms of pleading requirements, forum selection and so on. They count on people figuring that it's easier to settle than it is to go to court. Even if a troll loses in court (and very few actually go that far), they do not have to bear any of the costs of the other side. So, a defendant is always looking at paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars whatever happens. If the offer to settle is tens of thousands, then that is an option that may very reluctantly take. In any case, there has been recent legislation and a number of decisons that have substantially reduced the incentives to be a troll in the US.
None of the things that make trolling an option in the US apply in Europe.
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Jean-Claude Juncker meeting Gordon Brown today. Are they discussing a EuroVow modelled on Brown's during the Scottish referendum?0
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I think his apprentices have surpassed him in Osbo hatred. It'd be great if he came back to take the plaudits from all those who've come round to his way of thinking.pbr2013 said:
Got to be tim, shirly.0 -
They accepted a drawing of the male organ as an acceptable indication of voting didn't they? All you're doing is going from the noun to the verb.HappyMcFluffy said:
That'll at least give the counting agents something to argue about...weejonnie said:
Why not write f**k Farage carefully inside the 'leave' box?
How about "BREXIT", with the X carefully in the Remain box?0 -
the word you`re searching for is pigf__kerFrancisUrquhart said:Louise Louise Louise Louise Louise Louise Louise
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The basics will stay exactly the same. It will still be cheaper than the US. The patents will still be of much higher quality. Losers will still pay. In fact, getting patent protection across Europe and then enforcing your patent rights will become a whole lot cheaper and easier. However, if we vote to leave the EU it won't happen. So you don't need to worry about it.MarkHopkins said:SouthamObserver said:The EPO does not wave through US patents. That's just a matter of fact. There is, for example, a different standard of patentability in Europe to the US.
If you lose a case you will not have lost a case to a dodgy patent. You will have lost to one that has first been examined by the EPO and then, once again, during the court proceedings. I am afraid that if you are found to have infringed there is a price to pay. However, that has nothing to do with patent trolls.
Patent trolls make their money by asserting low quality patents and asking for licensing fees that are below the amount it would take to fight a case. They essentially exploit the cost of litigating in the US and the system's many failings in terms of pleading requirements, forum selection and so on. They count on people figuring that it's easier to settle than it is to go to court. Even if a troll loses in court (and very few actually go that far), they do not have to bear any of the costs of the other side. So, a defendant is always looking at paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars whatever happens. If the offer to settle is tens of thousands, then that is an option that may very reluctantly take. In any case, there has been recent legislation and a number of decisons that have substantially reduced the incentives to be a troll in the US.
None of the things that make trolling an option in the US apply in Europe.
The whole point is that the regime will change after the EU UPC is brought in. Not how the rules apply today.
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I don't want to sound like a dick, but reading that brought tears to my eyes.TheScreamingEagles said:The Speccie are backing Brexit. I'm shocked
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/
"A vote to leave would represent an extraordinary vote of confidence in the project of the United Kingdom and the principle of national self-determination. It would also show reform-minded Europeans that theirs is not a lost cause. And that we stand willing to help forge a Europe based on freedom, co-operation and respect for sovereignty."
That's precisely why I'm voting Leave. And I'm proud to do so.0 -
Mr Dancer, that's quite true!Morris_Dancer said:Dr. Prasannan, getting sacked by Cameron might actually help May's prospects succeeding him.
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Selling the EU is rather like getting an actuary in to lecture schoolboys on the job and its prospects.SeanT said:
Indeed. If LEAVE wins this is one reason they will win. They're just much better at tapping into basic raw emotion. Thinking visually not verbally. Show don't tell. Look at the photo. Whoever had the idea for the flotilla, with all its clever subliminal messages - Dunkirk to Trafalgar - should get a medal.blackburn63 said:Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/743089072751710208
Instead of getting rich powerful people to lecture us or menace us, REMAIN should have been thinking up clever stunts and emotional ads, in the same way. I know the EU is a harder sell but it's not an impossible sell. Yet they did nothing, and kept on with Project Fear.0 -
Immigration, immigration, immigration.Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.
Remain seemed to be strolling it until that 330,000 figure came out. That, and the TV coverage it received, was the game changer. For me, immigration was always going to be Leave's winning hand. That's why I bet accordingly. I could not see how Remain could counter it.
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But this is just it, the clumsiness and spontaneity of the Leave campaign has been its biggest strength, ordinary people versus the establishment and it's toadies. That little fishing boat spraying the cruiser was unplanned, real, visceral, we love it because it sums up how we all feel, we want to buy that fisherman a pint while Nabavi hectors people about their investments.SeanT said:
Indeed. If LEAVE wins this is one reason they will win. They're just much better at tapping into basic raw emotion. Thinking visually not verbally. Show don't tell. Look at the photo. Whoever had the idea for the flotilla, with all its clever subliminal messages - Dunkirk to Trafalgar - should get a medal.blackburn63 said:Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/743089072751710208
Instead of getting rich powerful people to lecture us or menace us, REMAIN should have been thinking up clever stunts and emotional ads, in the same way. I know the EU is a harder sell but it's not an impossible sell. Yet they did nothing, and kept on with Project Fear.
We're not there yet but we can smell victory in all its beauty and glory, we're going to sieze it, its an unstoppable force.0 -
Away from the chatter and on the ground FWIW had an interesting chat with someone at E Riding CC, today, someone who would know. They said:
"We anticipate a higher turnout than at the GE"
Make of that what you will. Seeing what Im seeing thats good for Leave. Very good.0 -
2, 3, and 4 absolutely. 'Scare early, scare often' hasn't worked. BSE have taken the indyref lessons to an extreme, forgetting that it wasn't only project fear that won it for the union. Obama was a massive failure, he should have been giving a speech this week, saying he respected the choice we make either way, but that he personally would vote remain and explaining how he believes the EU helps the UK (not talking about US trade deals). There should also have been a bit more pro-european lib-demmy talk, a bit of idealism mixed in with the economic arguments is better than only economics or only idealistic stuff. People vote logically and based on the pound in their pocket, but we aren't robots after all!Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.
on 1, I don't think the deal has played any part in the decision making process for the vast majority of people, it's a non-entity, i can't even remember the talking points from it.
on 5, I can't see what else Remain can do, EU immigration can't be controlled in the EU, so their two choices are to cut non-eu immigration to reduce the perceived surplus of immigrants, or try and change the subject (the option they chose)0 -
weejonnie said:
Selling the EU is rather like getting an actuary in to lecture schoolboys on the job and its prospects.SeanT said:
Indeed. If LEAVE wins this is one reason they will win. They're just much better at tapping into basic raw emotion. Thinking visually not verbally. Show don't tell. Look at the photo. Whoever had the idea for the flotilla, with all its clever subliminal messages - Dunkirk to Trafalgar - should get a medal.blackburn63 said:Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/743089072751710208
Instead of getting rich powerful people to lecture us or menace us, REMAIN should have been thinking up clever stunts and emotional ads, in the same way. I know the EU is a harder sell but it's not an impossible sell. Yet they did nothing, and kept on with Project Fear.
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Slovakia have just beaten Russia 2-1!0
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Its not the only one happening. On Tuesday boats from Grimsby, Hull, Goole and South Ferriby will be doing the same along the Humber.SeanT said:
Indeed. If LEAVE wins this is one reason they will win. They're just much better at tapping into basic raw emotion. Thinking visually not verbally. Show don't tell. Look at the photo. Whoever had the idea for the flotilla, with all its clever subliminal messages - Dunkirk to Trafalgar - should get a medal.blackburn63 said:Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/743089072751710208
Instead of getting rich powerful people to lecture us or menace us, REMAIN should have been thinking up clever stunts and emotional ads, in the same way. I know the EU is a harder sell but it's not an impossible sell. Yet they did nothing, and kept on with Project Fear.0 -
BlueKen said:
Jean-Claude Juncker meeting Gordon Brown today. Are they discussing a EuroVow modelled on Brown's during the Scottish referendum?
More like Brown wants a big job in E.UBlueKen said:Jean-Claude Juncker meeting Gordon Brown today. Are they discussing a EuroVow modelled on Brown's during the Scottish referendum?
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Trump is toastRodCrosby said:Trump going nuclear...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/743075154507489280
Hillary moves 12pts clear
Hillary 49
Trump 37
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-14/bloomberg-politics-national-poll-june-20160 -
Russia have to beat Wales to progress.Sunil_Prasannan said:Slovakia have just beaten Russia 2-1!
Expect Bale to have foot separated from ankle within the first five minutes...0 -
Do you think we will have the Geldof photo on any of the front pages tomorrow ?0
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A perfect example of how in the EU we can't get rid of our interfering political class.BlueKen said:Jean-Claude Juncker meeting Gordon Brown today. Are they discussing a EuroVow modelled on Brown's during the Scottish referendum?
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Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...0 -
The Backwoodsman are coming to town....and they're armed withYossariansChild said:Away from the chatter and on the ground FWIW had an interesting chat with someone at E Riding CC, today, someone who would know. They said:
"We anticipate a higher turnout than at the GE"
Make of that what you will. Seeing what Im seeing thats good for Leave. Very good.pitchforkspencils0 -
A new way of expressing ourselves in English
Brexiteers are 'tapping into raw emotions'. Really? Didn't we used to call it pandering to racism?0 -
Just one poll. And Bloomberg is the most pro-Dem. They had the lead at 18 last time, when everyone else was 6 or 7...Jobabob said:
Trump is toastRodCrosby said:Trump going nuclear...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/743075154507489280
Hillary moves 12pts clear
Hillary 49
Trump 37
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-14/bloomberg-politics-national-poll-june-20160 -
Not we. You.Fenman said:A new way of expressing ourselves in English
Brexiteers are 'tapping into raw emotions'. Really? Didn't we used to call it pandering to racism?0 -
YossariansChild said:
Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...
Labour Leave have had by FAR the best campaign so far.0 -
Yes. It is one of the most revolting images of the referendum. A party boat full of drunk metropolitan elites laughing and swearing at hard working fishermen.Tykejohnno said:Do you think we will have the Geldof photo on any of the front pages tomorrow ?
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The missing millions who voted Major in 1992 are coming back.MarqueeMark said:
The Backwoodsman are coming to town....and they're armed withYossariansChild said:Away from the chatter and on the ground FWIW had an interesting chat with someone at E Riding CC, today, someone who would know. They said:
"We anticipate a higher turnout than at the GE"
Make of that what you will. Seeing what Im seeing thats good for Leave. Very good.pitchforkspencils
Also FWIW was told that the 'vast' majority of people registering to vote during the last week were already on the register.0 -
We were always being told that Trump would moderate his pitch when the primaries ended, but it looks like he's still continuing with the appeal to conspiracy loons.0
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I agree with that. It's a false prospectus but an effective one. Immigration is always in the top three or four concerns of voters. Leave promise to bring it down through "control". Remain can't counter the argument, even though it is a false promise.SouthamObserver said:
Immigration, immigration, immigration.Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.
Remain seemed to be strolling it until that 330,000 figure came out. That, and the TV coverage it received, was the game changer. For me, immigration was always going to be Leave's winning hand. That's why I bet accordingly. I could not see how Remain could counter it.0 -
Fraser Nelson is a self-declared europhile.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Not really, Fraser Nelson has been pretty pro-LEAVE on Twitter.KentRising said:
I genuinely am. I thought they'd be too Establishment Tory to back Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:The Speccie are backing Brexit. I'm shocked
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/
https://twitter.com/spectator/status/7430810100956078090 -
The Labour Leave booklet is excellent. It's perfectly targeted at working class left wing voters.MarqueeMark said:YossariansChild said:Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...
Labour Leave have had by FAR the best campaign so far.0 -
MarqueeMark said:YossariansChild said:
Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...
Labour Leave have had by FAR the best campaign so far.
Agreed. From Gisela Stuart down they have, very quietly, very professionally, done a superb job. A job that Labour wasnt expecting - at an early debate in Hull (and the last time he showed up.. A Johnson said he was unaware that they existed. I think he is nowMarqueeMark said:YossariansChild said:Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...
Labour Leave have had by FAR the best campaign so far.
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It feels bloody brilliant to be a Brexiteer.Fenman said:A new way of expressing ourselves in English
Brexiteers are 'tapping into raw emotions'. Really? Didn't we used to call it pandering to racism?
Even the name. Swashbuckling into the future, wrapped in a union flag, a mixture of Last Night of the Proms, Trooping the Colour, the Red Arrows, Stonehenge, Grantchester church tower, and Cream Teas.
In the face of that, if you think anyone can convince people of the marginal benefits of this EU directive or how that EU directive has simplified and standardised the widget industry...
...you're avin' a laugh.0 -
Rod can I say that at these times, and I suspect often in the coming days, we really do need your calm, measured focus on the election campaign three and a half thousand miles away.RodCrosby said:
Just one poll. And Bloomberg is the most pro-Dem. They had the lead at 18 last time, when everyone else was 6 or 7...Jobabob said:
Trump is toastRodCrosby said:Trump going nuclear...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/743075154507489280
Hillary moves 12pts clear
Hillary 49
Trump 37
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-14/bloomberg-politics-national-poll-june-20160 -
Old joke warning.weejonnie said:
Selling the EU is rather like getting an actuary in to lecture schoolboys on the job and its prospects.SeanT said:
Indeed. If LEAVE wins this is one reason they will win. They're just much better at tapping into basic raw emotion. Thinking visually not verbally. Show don't tell. Look at the photo. Whoever had the idea for the flotilla, with all its clever subliminal messages - Dunkirk to Trafalgar - should get a medal.blackburn63 said:Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/743089072751710208
Instead of getting rich powerful people to lecture us or menace us, REMAIN should have been thinking up clever stunts and emotional ads, in the same way. I know the EU is a harder sell but it's not an impossible sell. Yet they did nothing, and kept on with Project Fear.
Being an actuary is for people who find accounting too exciting.0 -
Believe in BRITAIN!TOPPING said:
It feels bloody brilliant to be a Brexiteer.Fenman said:A new way of expressing ourselves in English
Brexiteers are 'tapping into raw emotions'. Really? Didn't we used to call it pandering to racism?
Even the name. Swashbuckling into the future, wrapped in a union flag, a mixture of Last Night of the Proms, Trooping the Colour, the Red Arrows, Stonehenge, Grantchester church tower, and Cream Teas.
.
Be LEAVE!
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I'm quite hopeful that Labour Leave may have a future.YossariansChild said:MarqueeMark said:YossariansChild said:Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...
Labour Leave have had by FAR the best campaign so far.
Agreed. From Gisela Stuart down they have, very quietly, very professionally, done a superb job. A job that Labour wasnt expecting - at an early debate in Hull (and the last time he showed up.. A Johnson said he was unaware that they existed. I think he is nowMarqueeMark said:YossariansChild said:Labour Leave will have some interesting posters coming out soon.
Planned before Ossie's tantrum though its almost as if they saw it coming...
Labour Leave have had by FAR the best campaign so far.0 -
Quite so. We should have stayed part of and leading EFTA.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Right then, right now.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm not. The Spectator backed Leave in 1975.KentRising said:
I genuinely am. I thought they'd be too Establishment Tory to back Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:The Speccie are backing Brexit. I'm shocked
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/
itter.com/spectator/status/743081010095607809
Things would never have got as out-of-hand as they did and have.0 -
If Leave does win this, could that destroy the credibility of Project Fear (from an economics perspective) as an argument? If so, that could be the silver lining for Labour, people won't buy tory attacks that Corbyn is a rabid marxist who would bankrupt the country and tax you 1000% etc.
Unless Corbyn decides to put that in his manifesto of course.0 -
Yep, that's why we are going to hear so much of betrayal after 23rd June. I hope it doesn't turn too nasty.FF43 said:
I agree with that. It's a false prospectus but an effective one. Immigration is always in the top three or four concerns of voters. Leave promise to bring it down through "control". Remain can't counter the argument, even though it is a false promise.SouthamObserver said:
Immigration, immigration, immigration.Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.
Remain seemed to be strolling it until that 330,000 figure came out. That, and the TV coverage it received, was the game changer. For me, immigration was always going to be Leave's winning hand. That's why I bet accordingly. I could not see how Remain could counter it.
0 -
Only if the economy doesn't tank as a result.Paristonda said:If Leave does win this, could that destroy the credibility of Project Fear (from an economics perspective) as an argument?
0 -
Yes on second thoughts he probably is, but is that now a "was"?Casino_Royale said:
Fraser Nelson is a self-declared europhile.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Not really, Fraser Nelson has been pretty pro-LEAVE on Twitter.KentRising said:
I genuinely am. I thought they'd be too Establishment Tory to back Brexit.TheScreamingEagles said:The Speccie are backing Brexit. I'm shocked
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/
https://twitter.com/spectator/status/7430810100956078090 -
What does that joke say about pension lawyers?David_Evershed said:
Old joke warning.weejonnie said:
Selling the EU is rather like getting an actuary in to lecture schoolboys on the job and its prospects.SeanT said:
Indeed. If LEAVE wins this is one reason they will win. They're just much better at tapping into basic raw emotion. Thinking visually not verbally. Show don't tell. Look at the photo. Whoever had the idea for the flotilla, with all its clever subliminal messages - Dunkirk to Trafalgar - should get a medal.blackburn63 said:Good heavens Leave as short as 11/8 in places, extraordinary since a week or so ago Meeks did a header saying Remain was value at 1/4.
I saw Neil annihilate Ed Vaizey and a Labour MP at lunchtime, really can't see anything but a Leave win now. I've been rubbished on here for months for saying that ambivalent Labour supporters will win this for Leave, John Mann was excellent on the same programme.
Anyone see that fishing boat hose down Geldof? Fantastic stuff.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/743089072751710208
Instead of getting rich powerful people to lecture us or menace us, REMAIN should have been thinking up clever stunts and emotional ads, in the same way. I know the EU is a harder sell but it's not an impossible sell. Yet they did nothing, and kept on with Project Fear.
Being an actuary is for people who find accounting too exciting.0 -
@adamboultonSKY: @MichaelLCrick Friends of @Nigel_Farage say he had 2 ambitions 1/peerage 2/ reunite with Tory party #takeover0
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The fact the report landed at virtually the same time as purdah kicking in was fortuitous and perhaps showed a lack of foresight on the part of Remain.SouthamObserver said:
Immigration, immigration, immigration.Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.
Remain seemed to be strolling it until that 330,000 figure came out. That, and the TV coverage it received, was the game changer. For me, immigration was always going to be Leave's winning hand. That's why I bet accordingly. I could not see how Remain could counter it.
I also think that Leave have acquitted themselves well in the majority of the TV debates and last Thursday was dreadful for Remain with Sturgeon, Izzard, Eagle and Rudd all having an attack of the crazies.0 -
Mr. Tonda, that is a possibility.
Even without such a change, the turbulence, at best, in the Conservative Party will give Labour (and UKIP) much better hopes than they would have enjoyed had Cameron/Osborne not been so inept.0 -
Surely not...
@GdnPolitics: Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies https://t.co/4i50BfgLwv0 -
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742771576039460864Jobabob said:
Trump is toastRodCrosby said:Trump going nuclear...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/743075154507489280
Hillary moves 12pts clear
Hillary 49
Trump 37
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-06-14/bloomberg-politics-national-poll-june-20160 -
If Leave win it will mean the public have reached the same point that they reached in 1997 and 2010; the feeling of 'we can't go on like this, enough's enough'.Paristonda said:If Leave does win this, could that destroy the credibility of Project Fear (from an economics perspective) as an argument? If so, that could be the silver lining for Labour, people won't buy tory attacks that Corbyn is a rabid marxist who would bankrupt the country and tax you 1000% etc.
Unless Corbyn decides to put that in his manifesto of course.0 -
I actually googled it (Paxo's "why is this lying bastard, lying...") but couldn't find anything...Scott_P said:Surely not...
@GdnPolitics: Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies https://t.co/4i50BfgLwv0 -
Into the what?TOPPING said:
It feels bloody brilliant to be a Brexiteer.
Even the name. Swashbuckling into the future, wrapped in a union flag, a mixture of Last Night of the Proms, Trooping the Colour, the Red Arrows, Stonehenge, Grantchester church tower, and Cream Teas. I'll grant you Stonehenge, and you can even have the Round Table. But other than that, it's Glastonbury Tor, corn dollies, the New Forest, vegetarian shepherd's pie, Branston pickle, yeast extract, and Cromwell, and John Ball, and Gerrard Winstanley, and Abiezer Coppe, and Ban the Bomb, and William Blake...and the greatest English poem since Blake.
"Where were you at the time of the crime?/Down by the Cenotaph, drinking slime"
I hope you're happy. Soon you'll be able to measure your inside leg in groats!
How about having the next referendum on NATO membership? Bring it on!
0 -
If Leave wins, whatever rises up out of the swamp - EAA, FTA or EnglandAndWales - will be the new normal. We'll get on with our lives.chestnut said:
If Leave win it will mean the public have reached the same point that they reached in 1997 and 2010; the feeling of 'we can't go on like this, enough's enough'.Paristonda said:If Leave does win this, could that destroy the credibility of Project Fear (from an economics perspective) as an argument? If so, that could be the silver lining for Labour, people won't buy tory attacks that Corbyn is a rabid marxist who would bankrupt the country and tax you 1000% etc.
Unless Corbyn decides to put that in his manifesto of course.0 -
About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.0
-
The quitter's way into parliamentScott_P said:@adamboultonSKY: @MichaelLCrick Friends of @Nigel_Farage say he had 2 ambitions 1/peerage 2/ reunite with Tory party #takeover
0 -
Yes, I agree. People and business will adapt. It won't happen overnight, but they will.FF43 said:
If Leave wins, whatever rises up out of the swamp - EAA, FTA or EnglandAndWales - will be the new normal. We'll get on with our lives.chestnut said:
If Leave win it will mean the public have reached the same point that they reached in 1997 and 2010; the feeling of 'we can't go on like this, enough's enough'.Paristonda said:If Leave does win this, could that destroy the credibility of Project Fear (from an economics perspective) as an argument? If so, that could be the silver lining for Labour, people won't buy tory attacks that Corbyn is a rabid marxist who would bankrupt the country and tax you 1000% etc.
Unless Corbyn decides to put that in his manifesto of course.
0 -
Scottish EU referendum poll: Remain: 58% (-8) Leave: 33% (+4)
(via Ipsos Mori, phone (06 to 12 June 2016). Of those likely to vote.
Scotland six months behind the rest of the UK?0 -
I would not like to be Boris or Michael Giove. As for Farage, he's the head of a cult. Cults don't do regicide.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, that's why we are going to hear so much of betrayal after 23rd June. I hope it doesn't turn too nasty.FF43 said:
I agree with that. It's a false prospectus but an effective one. Immigration is always in the top three or four concerns of voters. Leave promise to bring it down through "control". Remain can't counter the argument, even though it is a false promise.SouthamObserver said:
Immigration, immigration, immigration.Sean_F said:
I don't think Leave have run a good campaign, but Remain have certainly run a bad one. I'd say the mistakes have been:-
1. Overselling a crappy deal at the end of February. That insulted peoples' intelligence.
2. One threat after another. At least, it seems to people as if they're being threatened and blackmailed to vote Remain.
3. The Obama visit. What could have been a positive for Remain (a US President who's popular here endorsing Remain) turned into a negative (the "back of the queue") comment.
4. A reliance on purely materialistic arguments in favour of the EU (GDP will be x% higher/lower) while failing to address emotional/idealistic arguments around self-government and sovereignty.
5. Inability to neutralise immigration as an issue.
Remain seemed to be strolling it until that 330,000 figure came out. That, and the TV coverage it received, was the game changer. For me, immigration was always going to be Leave's winning hand. That's why I bet accordingly. I could not see how Remain could counter it.0 -
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.Jobabob said:About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
0 -
Absolutely superb news for Labour if there is a reunification. Takes away a big heartland threat and cements the Tories much further to the right.RobD said:
The quitter's way into parliamentScott_P said:@adamboultonSKY: @MichaelLCrick Friends of @Nigel_Farage say he had 2 ambitions 1/peerage 2/ reunite with Tory party #takeover
0 -
I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
#Brexit for me.0 -
Oh my
Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies
Ernest Gove says he sold fish processing firm in Aberdeen voluntarily, contradicting son’s claims
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/15/michael-gove-father-company-eu-policies-fish-processing-aberdeen?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics0 -
NATO membership - BAOR - my friend was given a pig sty to live in by the Germans he was defending. Germany spends 1% of GDP on its armed forces, and their equipment maintenance is so bad that recently they had only half a dozen Euro fighters available.0
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Lord Nelson! Lord Beaverbrook! Sir Winston Churchill! Sir Anthony Eden! Clement Attlee! Henry Cooper! Lady Diana! Maggie Thatcher!TOPPING said:
It feels bloody brilliant to be a Brexiteer.Fenman said:A new way of expressing ourselves in English
Brexiteers are 'tapping into raw emotions'. Really? Didn't we used to call it pandering to racism?
Even the name. Swashbuckling into the future, wrapped in a union flag, a mixture of Last Night of the Proms, Trooping the Colour, the Red Arrows, Stonehenge, Grantchester church tower, and Cream Teas.0 -
Crooked HillaryJobabob said:About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
0 -
Have u just made ur mind up. Excellent. Please talk to ur friends and family why u think we should leave.Fenster said:I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
#Brexit for me.0 -
Good chap.Fenster said:I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
#Brexit for me.0 -
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.SouthamObserver said:
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.Jobabob said:About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
0 -
Is there an ETA 4 BMG?
0 -
0
-
Is this good for Leave? Bad? How many Scots does Leave need.David_Evershed said:Scottish EU referendum poll: Remain: 58% (-8) Leave: 33% (+4)
(via Ipsos Mori, phone (06 to 12 June 2016). Of those likely to vote.
Scotland six months behind the rest of the UK?0 -
Scott_P said:
@adamboultonSKY: @MichaelLCrick Friends of @Nigel_Farage say he had 2 ambitions 1/peerage 2/ reunite with Tory party #takeover
Michael Crick forgets Farage has the ambition of UK Independence from the EU.
Why would Crick have forgotten? Anything to do with Channel Four?0 -
Well done.Fenster said:I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
#Brexit for me.
#TakeBackControl0 -
I think they said some time "tonight".GIN1138 said:Is there an ETA 4 BMG?
0 -
I doubt it'll ever happen, they've drifted too far apart.SouthamObserver said:
Absolutely superb news for Labour if there is a reunification. Takes away a big heartland threat and cements the Tories much further to the right.RobD said:
The quitter's way into parliamentScott_P said:@adamboultonSKY: @MichaelLCrick Friends of @Nigel_Farage say he had 2 ambitions 1/peerage 2/ reunite with Tory party #takeover
0 -
Their press release just said tonite (sic).GIN1138 said:Is there an ETA 4 BMG?
0
