About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
LauraK on the DP said earlier that from her experience on the campaign trail - the electorate seemed to developing a *post-fact* attitude to politicians. They simply didn't believe many of them at all, and were going on their gut feel/what they read overall.
That's disappointing from Gove. Plenty of other Leavers let their imaginations run riot, but you'd have thought he would have avoided the temptation to fantasise. But Leave have pretty much started their victory lap now, so there's little point huffing about it. Anyway, part II of this saga begins in just over a week. That's the bit I'm looking forward to now.
As someone who has dabbled in history, I don't really agree with Antifrank's analysis of the inter war period.
Self determination and national identity fuelled the internal collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire while the re-creation of Poland was the result of the equivalent collapse of both Germany and Russia in 1917-18.
The fall of the three autarchies left a huge vacuum in central and eastern Europe but that wasn't really the story. The French in particular saw the new states as a potential bulwark against both Communism in the east and any re-emergence of German militarism.
French diplomacy in the immediate inter war period was predicated on trying to build effective democratic pro-western structures in Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and elsewhere. It was the inability of Paris of carry through that policy in the 1920s that led to these states abandoning democracy for authoritarianism and nationalism.
There was a brief attempt (Stresa) to being fascist Italy into the anti-German alliance and indeed Italy did much to prevent an initial German attempt to subvert Austria in 1934 but once it became clear neither Britain nor France would intervene militarily to defend Versailles, the fate of Austria and indeed of all central and eastern Europe was sealed for more than half a century.
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
Absolutely superb news for Labour if there is a reunification. Takes away a big heartland threat and cements the Tories much further to the right.
UKIP could not be re-unified with the Conservatives because they were never unified.
Just wishful thinking by Channel Four in the hope that UKIP would then stop eating into Labour support.
I see it as being bad for Labour. If Farage and the ex-Tory types went back to the Cons, then the rump of UKIP would surely become a more leftwing "old Labour" style party that could threaten Lab in their northern heartlands.
I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
#Brexit for me.
Eloquently put, and needless to say I agree with every sentiment.
Miss Plato, began with Blair's nonsense and Campbell's media propaganda, through to Cameron insulting people's intelligence by claiming he'd actually got a good deal.
Now he never mentions it and simply threatens pensions, bus passes and the NHS (but his precious foreign aid spending is sacred and cannot be touched).
That said, Remain still has a very good chance of winning this. I'd be more surprised by a Leave victory than a Remain win.
I don't want to sound like a dick, but reading that brought tears to my eyes.
"A vote to leave would represent an extraordinary vote of confidence in the project of the United Kingdom and the principle of national self-determination. It would also show reform-minded Europeans that theirs is not a lost cause. And that we stand willing to help forge a Europe based on freedom, co-operation and respect for sovereignty."
That's precisely why I'm voting Leave. And I'm proud to do so.
I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
#Brexit for me.
Have u just made ur mind up. Excellent. Please talk to ur friends and family why u think we should leave.
Even without such a change, the turbulence, at best, in the Conservative Party will give Labour (and UKIP) much better hopes than they would have enjoyed had Cameron/Osborne not been so inept.
If it's leave i think more so, with remain labor will lose a lot to UKIP, so remain screws both Tories and labour
About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
LauraK on the DP said earlier that from her experience on the campaign trail - the electorate seemed to developing a *post-fact* attitude to politicians. They simply didn't believe many of them at all, and were going on their gut feel/what they read overall.
Case in point - Osborne's Post Brexit Emergency Budget.
We all know it is a fib, because in the event of Brexit he won't be able to get a budget through parliament. He doesn't have the numbers, so wouldn't risk it. It'd be suicide.
But ah! He thinks people are stupid enough to believe it. Indeed, we've all been going round thinking the ranked masses of the great unwashed (me included) will believe it. Because. We. Are. Fucking. Ignorant. And. Stupid.
But as the emergence of Corbyn, Trump, UKIP (to a degree), Boaty McBoatFace, the Scots Nats and now the (unthinkable six months ago) possibility of Brexit shows, people do listen. They do smell the bullshit. And they vote in protest.
We clearly aren't as stupid as we think, or they think.
Miss Plato, began with Blair's nonsense and Campbell's media propaganda, through to Cameron insulting people's intelligence by claiming he'd actually got a good deal.
Now he never mentions it and simply threatens pensions, bus passes and the NHS (but his precious foreign aid spending is sacred and cannot be touched).
That said, Remain still has a very good chance of winning this. I'd be more surprised by a Leave victory than a Remain win.
I'm expecting Remain to just scrape over the line - but have a glimmer of hope we'll do it. Next week is going to be a killer of nail biting.
IIRC there's another IMF or something report due just before polling day. And we've got Junker/likely soothing empty promises to contend with.
The Geldof image must surely be on the Sun's frontpage tomorrow - it's complete gift to Leave.
Anecdote alert. A colleague of mine who I had expected to be 100% remain (Italian heritage, Oxford graduate, mid 20s professional) has just told me he's sent off his postal vote with a cross in the Leave box. I asked him why, he said that he didn't like the EU's attitude and their threats to dole out punishment beatings to anyone who leaves, he thinks the EU is turning onto a protection racket instead of a trading bloc. He said in Italy the Brussels Eurocrats would get charged with racketeering if they behaved like that in private industry. I've never thought of it like that, but he is right, our contribution is our protection money which we pay to ensure they don't come along an duff up our economy and now we are thinking about leave and stop paying they are threatening us with the kind of punishment beatings that organised criminals would to a lowly shop keeper.
I suspect that we'll find this Guardian article is something of a red herring:
"Ernest Gove told the Guardian that he did believe the industry in Scotland “more or less collapsed down” after the EU became involved in fisheries policy.."
Miss Plato, began with Blair's nonsense and Campbell's media propaganda, through to Cameron insulting people's intelligence by claiming he'd actually got a good deal.
Now he never mentions it and simply threatens pensions, bus passes and the NHS (but his precious foreign aid spending is sacred and cannot be touched).
That said, Remain still has a very good chance of winning this. I'd be more surprised by a Leave victory than a Remain win.
I don't want to sound like a dick, but reading that brought tears to my eyes.
"A vote to leave would represent an extraordinary vote of confidence in the project of the United Kingdom and the principle of national self-determination. It would also show reform-minded Europeans that theirs is not a lost cause. And that we stand willing to help forge a Europe based on freedom, co-operation and respect for sovereignty."
That's precisely why I'm voting Leave. And I'm proud to do so.
It was very powerful.
It would certainly strengthen the principle of self-determination for Scotland.
Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Junker If You Think We're voting Remain? We Are The Boys Who Will Stop Your Little Game We Are The Boys Who Will Make You Think Again 'Cause Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Junker? If EU Think Old England's Done?
So Watch Out Mr Junker You Have Met Your Match In Us If You Think You Can Crush Us We're Afraid You've Missed The Bus 'Cause Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Junker If EU Think Old England's Done?
Presumably, if it's a LEAVE vote, UKIP will cease to exist fairly shortly as its primary reason for existing will have been achieved.
As for the other parties, all face some form of internal division but I'm sceptical about any actual re-alignment. The pro-EU dissidents will be marginalised and the debate will move to the process of withdrawal and what we want to achieve in terms of a new economic and political relationship with the EU which will have problems of its own with other countries looking to follow us out the door.
Too many people on here underestimate the strength a LEAVE vote will provide the British negotiating team in its dealings. The EU will be faced with an existential crisis - the Bundestag elections of 2017 will be pivotal to the survival of the institution - so will be dealing from a much weaker hand and may well be more accommodating than the public utterances hitherto.
About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
LauraK on the DP said earlier that from her experience on the campaign trail - the electorate seemed to developing a *post-fact* attitude to politicians. They simply didn't believe many of them at all, and were going on their gut feel/what they read overall.
Certainly that's what I did. I gave up on politicians telling the truth & went by gut instinct.
Anecdote alert. A colleague of mine who I had expected to be 100% remain (Italian heritage, Oxford graduate, mid 20s professional) has just told me he's sent off his postal vote with a cross in the Leave box. I asked him why, he said that he didn't like the EU's attitude and their threats to dole out punishment beatings to anyone who leaves, he thinks the EU is turning onto a protection racket instead of a trading bloc. He said in Italy the Brussels Eurocrats would get charged with racketeering if they behaved like that in private industry. I've never thought of it like that, but he is right, our contribution is our protection money which we pay to ensure they don't come along an duff up our economy and now we are thinking about leave and stop paying they are threatening us with the kind of punishment beatings that organised criminals would to a lowly shop keeper.
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
It is not surprising when the HOC is 480 remain - 150 leave. As far as wearing your colours both sides did that in the chamber today. As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap. I would also concide that momentum is with leave and if that is the will of the people I will have no hesitation in accepting the result and will move on
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
It is not surprising when the HOC is 480 remain - 150 leave. As far as wearing your colours both sides did that in the chamber today. As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap. I would also concide that momentum is with leave and if that is the will of the people I will have no hesitation in accepting the result and will move on
As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap.
Anecdote alert. A colleague of mine who I had expected to be 100% remain (Italian heritage, Oxford graduate, mid 20s professional) has just told me he's sent off his postal vote with a cross in the Leave box. I asked him why, he said that he didn't like the EU's attitude and their threats to dole out punishment beatings to anyone who leaves, he thinks the EU is turning onto a protection racket instead of a trading bloc. He said in Italy the Brussels Eurocrats would get charged with racketeering if they behaved like that in private industry. I've never thought of it like that, but he is right, our contribution is our protection money which we pay to ensure they don't come along an duff up our economy and now we are thinking about leave and stop paying they are threatening us with the kind of punishment beatings that organised criminals would to a lowly shop keeper.
Interesting stuff.. I didn't want to tell my anecdote because it sounds contrived but my local Indian restaurant owner Sammy (he's actually Bangladeshi and dresses like a sub-contintental hill farmer - great bloke) was up the school earlier dropping off his daughter.. He did me a lovely Dhansak on Saturday so I told him so, then asked him if we was voting Remain or Brexit.
"I'm voting out" he said... "Too many people coming over here taking the piss"..
His restaurant is packed to the gills with Bangladeshis. Knowing Sammy I bet none of them pay tax. LOL
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
It is not surprising when the HOC is 480 remain - 150 leave. As far as wearing your colours both sides did that in the chamber today. As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap. I would also concide that momentum is with leave and if that is the will of the people I will have no hesitation in accepting the result and will move on
About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
LauraK on the DP said earlier that from her experience on the campaign trail - the electorate seemed to developing a *post-fact* attitude to politicians. They simply didn't believe many of them at all, and were going on their gut feel/what they read overall.
Case in point - Osborne's Post Brexit Emergency Budget.
We all know it is a fib, because in the event of Brexit he won't be able to get a budget through parliament. He doesn't have the numbers, so wouldn't risk it. It'd be suicide.
But ah! He thinks people are stupid enough to believe it. Indeed, we've all been going round thinking the ranked masses of the great unwashed (me included) will believe it. Because. We. Are. Fucking. Ignorant. And. Stupid.
But as the emergence of Corbyn, Trump, UKIP (to a degree), Boaty McBoatFace, the Scots Nats and now the (unthinkable six months ago) possibility of Brexit shows, people do listen. They do smell the bullshit. And they vote in protest.
We clearly aren't as stupid as we think, or they think.
Question is, will those who usually Don't Vote actually get themselves to take the plunge this time?
Presumably, if it's a LEAVE vote, UKIP will cease to exist fairly shortly as its primary reason for existing will have been achieved.
Not necessarily - the ANC still exists 25 years after Apartheid was abolished. The Congress Party is still around nearly 70 years after Indian independence.
On thread. Mr Meeks should stick to lawyering as his grasp on history is rather poor.
The idea that the countries of central Europe were conquered by the Nazis because they were were 'divided, small and weak' is ludicrous. If the Austro-Hungarian Empire had still existed it would either have quite happily allied itself with the Germans (as Austria, Hungary and Romania indeed did) or would have been conquered just as easily as the individual states were. The subsequent conquest by the Soviets after WW2 was an unavoidable consequence of this and the Yugoslavian War came about exactly because separate countries with very different ethnic and religious backgrounds were forced together.
If Remain win, I believe the PM will do a revenge reshuffle, reconciliation will go out of the window.
I see Andrew Neil finally lost it with Ed Vaizey on DP. John Mann said he thought the working-class vote would be the highest turn-out ever. I just hope they remembered to register.
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
It is not surprising when the HOC is 480 remain - 150 leave. As far as wearing your colours both sides did that in the chamber today. As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap. I would also concide that momentum is with leave and if that is the will of the people I will have no hesitation in accepting the result and will move on
As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap.
Wow. Coming from you.
He was using it to get the economy back on the agenda and I am sure he knows he is a goner. He has been a disaster recently and if remain lose it will be in no small part down to him. Time to have a big shake up in the cabinet post 23rd and it will be very interesting to see the fallout on all parties, but the conservative party have a desire to govern and they will be the government right upto 2020
Anecdote alert. A colleague of mine who I had expected to be 100% remain (Italian heritage, Oxford graduate, mid 20s professional) has just told me he's sent off his postal vote with a cross in the Leave box. I asked him why, he said that he didn't like the EU's attitude and their threats to dole out punishment beatings to anyone who leaves, he thinks the EU is turning onto a protection racket instead of a trading bloc. He said in Italy the Brussels Eurocrats would get charged with racketeering if they behaved like that in private industry. I've never thought of it like that, but he is right, our contribution is our protection money which we pay to ensure they don't come along an duff up our economy and now we are thinking about leave and stop paying they are threatening us with the kind of punishment beatings that organised criminals would to a lowly shop keeper.
Quite so. No matter what our heritage, we are a stoic people. We do not give into threats or bullies.
One of the things that genuinely worried me about this campaign was a fear that, at the heart of our national character, that feature had quietly died.
I'm impressed (and proud) that after months of the great and the good promising us the terrors of the earth if we do not do as they say, so many people are defiantly making a stand against that, and for taking control themselves.
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
It is not surprising when the HOC is 480 remain - 150 leave. As far as wearing your colours both sides did that in the chamber today. As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap. I would also concide that momentum is with leave and if that is the will of the people I will have no hesitation in accepting the result and will move on
Good for you for saying that, Big G.
To be fair Big G was also saying that weeks ago when Remain looked nailed on so he has always been clear about accepting the result whatever it is.
About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
LauraK on the DP said earlier that from her experience on the campaign trail - the electorate seemed to developing a *post-fact* attitude to politicians. They simply didn't believe many of them at all, and were going on their gut feel/what they read overall.
Case in point - Osborne's Post Brexit Emergency Budget.
We all know it is a fib, because in the event of Brexit he won't be able to get a budget through parliament. He doesn't have the numbers, so wouldn't risk it. It'd be suicide.
But ah! He thinks people are stupid enough to believe it. Indeed, we've all been going round thinking the ranked masses of the great unwashed (me included) will believe it. Because. We. Are. Fucking. Ignorant. And. Stupid.
But as the emergence of Corbyn, Trump, UKIP (to a degree), Boaty McBoatFace, the Scots Nats and now the (unthinkable six months ago) possibility of Brexit shows, people do listen. They do smell the bullshit. And they vote in protest.
We clearly aren't as stupid as we think, or they think.
Question is, will those who usually Don't Vote actually get themselves to take the plunge this time?
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
Certainly Trump will try to capitalise on a Leave win, big-time. He will be in Britain throughout the voting, which when you think about it is extraordinary.
George Bush, when he was head of the CIA, was in Britain when Harold Wilson - whoopsadaisy - left office too.
I was willing to vote Remain last year. I even posted on FB in a smug manner to some uniformed friends about the virtues of working together with our neighbours.
I've never, ever been convinced of the EU. I've always reflexively disliked the anti-democratic nature of it; it's unspoken desire to want to control the lives of the masses and make it more difficult for us as individuals to overthrow the ruling classes.
But I was willing to park all that high-minded sovereignty stuff, truly believing that Cameron would kick some arse during the negotiations and get the EU - especially with France in the economic doldrums - to run in a more German/British manner and less of a French and southern Mediterranean one. I thought he could use some muscle to get us Brits the best of both worlds.
Somewhere along the way the Remain camp lost my trust and then lost my vote. Cameron's negotiation was more spin than substance and then Michael Gove's inspiring article at the beginning of the campaign hooked me in. Since then - and this isn't through confirmation bias, I've read as much contrasting opinion as I can - I've become even more convinced of Brexit. I can barely believe it, and I'm even embarrassed to tell some of my friends about it in case I offend them.
Forget Boris, and IDS and the diehards in UKIP like Farage. I've been convinced by the gentler, more inspiring, more hope-led sorts like Gisela Stuart.
I might regret it but the whole establishment has had a prolonged campaign to tell me about the virtues of a political structure that pays nearly 11,000 people more money (by dint of their brains and brilliance, I'm sure) than our own PM. But they haven't been able to do it. Which makes me think that there are few, if any, virtues to speak of.
I love Britain. I love Europe. But I have no affection for the EU.
About time for a Hillary thread? The big story in the States is how her poll rating is soaring since she won the nomination.
Seems like Trump is doing all he can to boost her. Paul Ryan must be wishing he had held back on that endorsement of him.
IMHO, if Leave wins, so will Trump, because it will show that people have stopped listening to establishment figures.
LauraK on the DP said earlier that from her experience on the campaign trail - the electorate seemed to developing a *post-fact* attitude to politicians. They simply didn't believe many of them at all, and were going on their gut feel/what they read overall.
Case in point - Osborne's Post Brexit Emergency Budget.
We all know it is a fib, because in the event of Brexit he won't be able to get a budget through parliament. He doesn't have the numbers, so wouldn't risk it. It'd be suicide.
But ah! He thinks people are stupid enough to believe it. Indeed, we've all been going round thinking the ranked masses of the great unwashed (me included) will believe it. Because. We. Are. Fucking. Ignorant. And. Stupid.
But as the emergence of Corbyn, Trump, UKIP (to a degree), Boaty McBoatFace, the Scots Nats and now the (unthinkable six months ago) possibility of Brexit shows, people do listen. They do smell the bullshit. And they vote in protest.
We clearly aren't as stupid as we think, or they think.
Although I haven't gone as far as switching to Leave, I have to agree with most of this - this nonsense about a post-Brexit budget he'd have no authority to dole out sums up the ridiculous remain campaign, and why I haven't wanted to be associated at all (I've pretty much sat it out.) For goodness sake, we've had 70 years of peace in Europe, living standards unimaginable from a generation ago, interconnectivity of industry, research and academia like never before. And all Remain could come up with was Project Fear, name-call Boris, Farage and Gove, and wilt as soon as the other side complained about immigration.
I confess, quietly, though - it will be fascinating to see what happens if we go over the cliff next Thursday. Every time a nation has come close in my political lifetime, it's always stepped back from the brink at the 11th hour - this would be a whole new world and who knows who'd be inspired / horrified by the results.
Anecdote alert. A colleague of mine who I had expected to be 100% remain (Italian heritage, Oxford graduate, mid 20s professional) has just told me he's sent off his postal vote with a cross in the Leave box. I asked him why, he said that he didn't like the EU's attitude and their threats to dole out punishment beatings to anyone who leaves, he thinks the EU is turning onto a protection racket instead of a trading bloc. He said in Italy the Brussels Eurocrats would get charged with racketeering if they behaved like that in private industry. I've never thought of it like that, but he is right, our contribution is our protection money which we pay to ensure they don't come along an duff up our economy and now we are thinking about leave and stop paying they are threatening us with the kind of punishment beatings that organised criminals would to a lowly shop keeper.
Quite so. No matter what our heritage, we are a stoic people. We do not give into threats or bullies.
One of the things that genuinely worried me about this campaign was a fear that, at the heart of our national character, that feature had quietly died.
I'm impressed (and proud) that after months of the great and the good promising us the terrors of the earth if we do not do as they say, so many people are defiantly making a stand against that, and for taking control themselves.
Given our stoicism and refusal to back down in the face of threats, it does make you wonder why Leave has spent so much time warning us all that if we do not vote to quit the EU we will imminently be overrun by Turks and other swarthy undesirables. Maybe a few Remainers are making a stand against that kind of complete nonsense, who knows? Or perhaps they are just sick and tired of being told by immensely privileged, wealthy people that if we do not do as they say we are cowards and afraid to stand up to bullies.
The country is split down the middle and no one side has the monopoly on pluckiness, patriotism or anything else.
The difference that project fear has made is that; before it I intended to vote Brexit. Now I will vote Brexit even if voting meant I had to interrupt a holiday and drive 200 miles to the polling station or discharge myself from a hospital and hobble to the voting station before calling an ambulance to take me back
I wish he'd shut up and piss off. That visit will be thoroughly unhelpful.
That's what I'm hoping. Sheffield Rally moment. Wishful thinking on my part, most probably.
And you really think that his post Orlando comments are not being lapped up by the WWC who need to be fired up to reverse their usual voting apathy and turn out?
I was absolutely disgusted at the way PMQs was used as a pro-Remain rally today, complete with Labour MP, Mary Creagh, wearing a Remain-In t-shirt. I thought that was against the rules. The arrogant sneering from the Remainers just made me so angry. The state of our politics at the moment is just beyond dire.
It is not surprising when the HOC is 480 remain - 150 leave. As far as wearing your colours both sides did that in the chamber today. As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap. I would also concide that momentum is with leave and if that is the will of the people I will have no hesitation in accepting the result and will move on
As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap.
Wow. Coming from you.
He was using it to get the economy back on the agenda and I am sure he knows he is a goner. He has been a disaster recently and if remain lose it will be in no small part down to him. Time to have a big shake up in the cabinet post 23rd and it will be very interesting to see the fallout on all parties, but the conservative party have a desire to govern and they will be the government right upto 2020
Both Cameron and Osborne are reaping what they have sown. It will be good to see the back of them. The only downside is that something even worse is about to take over.
Anecdote alert. A colleague of mine who I had expected to be 100% remain (Italian heritage, Oxford graduate, mid 20s professional) has just told me he's sent off his postal vote with a cross in the Leave box. I asked him why, he said that he didn't like the EU's attitude and their threats to dole out punishment beatings to anyone who leaves, he thinks the EU is turning onto a protection racket instead of a trading bloc. He said in Italy the Brussels Eurocrats would get charged with racketeering if they behaved like that in private industry. I've never thought of it like that, but he is right, our contribution is our protection money which we pay to ensure they don't come along an duff up our economy and now we are thinking about leave and stop paying they are threatening us with the kind of punishment beatings that organised criminals would to a lowly shop keeper.
Quite so. No matter what our heritage, we are a stoic people. We do not give into threats or bullies.
One of the things that genuinely worried me about this campaign was a fear that, at the heart of our national character, that feature had quietly died.
I'm impressed (and proud) that after months of the great and the good promising us the terrors of the earth if we do not do as they say, so many people are defiantly making a stand against that, and for taking control themselves.
Given our stoicism and refusal to back down in the face of threats, it does make you wonder why Leave has spent so much time warning us all that if we do not vote to quit the EU we will imminently be overrun by Turks and other swarthy undesirables. Maybe a few Remainers are making a stand against that kind of complete nonsense, who knows? Or perhaps they are just sick and tired of being told by immensely privileged, wealthy people that if we do not do as they say we are cowards and afraid to stand up to bullies.
The country is split down the middle and no one side has the monopoly on pluckiness, patriotism or anything else.
I don't think there are many who are voting remaining out of defiance of the Leave arguments, maybe against the people in the leave camp though.
Where are all the FTSE and currency updates today? I've had to go and look them up elsewhere.
I though pb was diversifying into a mixed politics/economy site. Disappointed.
Something to do with this:
British Pound Recovers from Sun Meltdown on Strong Wage Growth Data, Seen Up vs Euro and Dollar. The GBP is in recovery mode 24 hours after the currency was hit by fresh polling data and news that the Sun newspaper has decided to support Brexit.
Comments
Top bloke
Well done @Sunil_Prasannan on taking over The Sun yesterday!
#BeLeave
UKIP could not be re-unified with the Conservatives because they were never unified.
Just wishful thinking by Channel Four in the hope that UKIP would then stop eating into Labour support.
UKIP's economic approach is more like Old Labour, and they're more socially conservative than the Conservatives.
By the way, is Trump still planning on coming over next week?
Leave's Sheffield Rally moment (I hope).
As someone who has dabbled in history, I don't really agree with Antifrank's analysis of the inter war period.
Self determination and national identity fuelled the internal collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire while the re-creation of Poland was the result of the equivalent collapse of both Germany and Russia in 1917-18.
The fall of the three autarchies left a huge vacuum in central and eastern Europe but that wasn't really the story. The French in particular saw the new states as a potential bulwark against both Communism in the east and any re-emergence of German militarism.
French diplomacy in the immediate inter war period was predicated on trying to build effective democratic pro-western structures in Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and elsewhere. It was the inability of Paris of carry through that policy in the 1920s that led to these states abandoning democracy for authoritarianism and nationalism.
There was a brief attempt (Stresa) to being fascist Italy into the anti-German alliance and indeed Italy did much to prevent an initial German attempt to subvert Austria in 1934 but once it became clear neither Britain nor France would intervene militarily to defend Versailles, the fate of Austria and indeed of all central and eastern Europe was sealed for more than half a century.
I am just reporting the clear trend and the polling. Unlike some other wishful thinkers on here, whose names I shan't mention ;-)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html
Now he never mentions it and simply threatens pensions, bus passes and the NHS (but his precious foreign aid spending is sacred and cannot be touched).
That said, Remain still has a very good chance of winning this. I'd be more surprised by a Leave victory than a Remain win.
We all know it is a fib, because in the event of Brexit he won't be able to get a budget through parliament. He doesn't have the numbers, so wouldn't risk it. It'd be suicide.
But ah! He thinks people are stupid enough to believe it. Indeed, we've all been going round thinking the ranked masses of the great unwashed (me included) will believe it. Because. We. Are. Fucking. Ignorant. And. Stupid.
But as the emergence of Corbyn, Trump, UKIP (to a degree), Boaty McBoatFace, the Scots Nats and now the (unthinkable six months ago) possibility of Brexit shows, people do listen. They do smell the bullshit. And they vote in protest.
We clearly aren't as stupid as we think, or they think.
IIRC there's another IMF or something report due just before polling day. And we've got Junker/likely soothing empty promises to contend with.
The Geldof image must surely be on the Sun's frontpage tomorrow - it's complete gift to Leave.
"Ernest Gove told the Guardian that he did believe the industry in Scotland “more or less collapsed down” after the EU became involved in fisheries policy.."
May help Remain. Being given a bad forecast in a French accent may help Leave.
Apperently student actuaries earn £36,000! Damn!
Mr. Nunu, blimey. That's not bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO2cxuqcjbo
I think some Tories are still obsessed with Blair's victory of 1997, the way New Labour was about Thatcher.
We might (just might) be about to get a wake up call that the electorate has now moved on. A lot.
If You Think We're voting Remain?
We Are The Boys Who Will Stop Your Little Game
We Are The Boys Who Will Make You Think Again
'Cause Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Junker?
If EU Think Old England's Done?
So Watch Out Mr Junker
You Have Met Your Match In Us
If You Think You Can Crush Us
We're Afraid You've Missed The Bus
'Cause Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Junker
If EU Think Old England's Done?
As for the other parties, all face some form of internal division but I'm sceptical about any actual re-alignment. The pro-EU dissidents will be marginalised and the debate will move to the process of withdrawal and what we want to achieve in terms of a new economic and political relationship with the EU which will have problems of its own with other countries looking to follow us out the door.
Too many people on here underestimate the strength a LEAVE vote will provide the British negotiating team in its dealings. The EU will be faced with an existential crisis - the Bundestag elections of 2017 will be pivotal to the survival of the institution - so will be dealing from a much weaker hand and may well be more accommodating than the public utterances hitherto.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/06/12/trump_is_looking_for_a_way_out_130849.html
As a remainer I would say that George Osborne was plain stupid today and needs to go asap.
Wow. Coming from you.
"I'm voting out" he said... "Too many people coming over here taking the piss"..
His restaurant is packed to the gills with Bangladeshis. Knowing Sammy I bet none of them pay tax. LOL
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/osborne-dismisses-plea-to-limit-eu-migrants-2w6rd8jdj
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/trump-to-visit-england-before-eu-referendum-2834735/
The idea that the countries of central Europe were conquered by the Nazis because they were were 'divided, small and weak' is ludicrous. If the Austro-Hungarian Empire had still existed it would either have quite happily allied itself with the Germans (as Austria, Hungary and Romania indeed did) or would have been conquered just as easily as the individual states were. The subsequent conquest by the Soviets after WW2 was an unavoidable consequence of this and the Yugoslavian War came about exactly because separate countries with very different ethnic and religious backgrounds were forced together.
I see Andrew Neil finally lost it with Ed Vaizey on DP. John Mann said he thought the working-class vote would be the highest turn-out ever. I just hope they remembered to register.
One of the things that genuinely worried me about this campaign was a fear that, at the heart of our national character, that feature had quietly died.
I'm impressed (and proud) that after months of the great and the good promising us the terrors of the earth if we do not do as they say, so many people are defiantly making a stand against that, and for taking control themselves.
George Bush, when he was head of the CIA, was in Britain when Harold Wilson - whoopsadaisy - left office too.
Mine:
Labour 52% +5%
Conservatives 24% -18%
UKIP 13% +10%
Greens 6% +2%
Lib Dems 4% +-0%
I though pb was diversifying into a mixed politics/economy site. Disappointed.
Russia are surely out. They have set off flares in the stadium, and have attacked Slovakia.
I confess, quietly, though - it will be fascinating to see what happens if we go over the cliff next Thursday. Every time a nation has come close in my political lifetime, it's always stepped back from the brink at the 11th hour - this would be a whole new world and who knows who'd be inspired / horrified by the results.
The country is split down the middle and no one side has the monopoly on pluckiness, patriotism or anything else.
British Pound Recovers from Sun Meltdown on Strong Wage Growth Data, Seen Up vs Euro and Dollar. The GBP is in recovery mode 24 hours after the currency was hit by fresh polling data and news that the Sun newspaper has decided to support Brexit.
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/4988-pound-exchange-rates-today
Conservatives 35%
Greens 6%
LD 6%
UKIP 4%