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Mr Dancer: "in a condescending or superior manner."Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, could you translate that for those of us not au fait avec francais?
On a purely objective basis, it'll be fascinating to see what MPs do if we do vote Leave.0 -
If Fargle enthuseses just 20% of those missing C2 DEs to vote leave Remain are in trouble.Tony said:
Compare turnout to say 1992 , when there was more enthusiasm for labourlogical_song said:
We shall see, here's what happened in 2015:Tony said:
Completely agree , think we'll see a majority Labour WWC vote to leave offset by Conservative AB1 having second thoughts in the booth and plumping for Remain to save their house prices.Mortimer said:
I'm convinced we're going to see vast swathes of people who would never vote anything other than Labour in the North and East of England, and the South of Wales vote LEAVE.
Leave will carry the day based on a very high turnout of CDE.
Social Class
AB 75%
C1 69%
C2 62%
DE 57%
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
As Labour has moved away from it's roots CDE turnout has dropped.
The WWC are very agitated by the Immigration numbers, rightly or wrongly.
Social Class
AB 83%
C1 78%
C2 75%
DE 77%
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2799&view=wide
Cameron has been a fool not to stay above the fray and getting the whole international political, commercial and great and good establishment to take part in Project Fear. Plenty of people who dont vote because 'politicians are all the same and out for what they can get' are going to delight in the chance of having a vote of confidence in that establishments dear project.
If kicking them in the nuts to spite them also results in some of project fear coming true and thinning out their fat pockets then all the better in their view.
It makes perfect sense now as to why Farage is staying largely out of the media and touring the inner cities.0 -
Mr. Blue, that seems eminently credible.
There could also be a lot of shy voters who switch sides, either due to last minute fear or not wanting to confess to one's dinner party circle that one's a sceptic.0 -
Which will be ignored.TOPPING said:@Patrick
His torment is my soulfood. I was a big Dave fan once. I feel utterly betrayed. As do millions more. I desperately hope the plebs can land one on the elite and their cosy status quo. Fuck 'em.
giving you a referendum, an' all. The bastard.
All true democrats should now be voting LEAVE.0 -
I remember a Telegraph article from yrs ago saying a 1% rise interest rise would stick a load of mortgages into peril. I find that depressing but believeable.PAW said:"A third of middle class people would not be able to pay an unexpected £500 bill because of the squeeze on wages and rising living costs" - I wonder if the AB crowd are really as comfortable as we think?
However, the Middle Class would easily find £500 if they didn't buy the latest phone, shoes, takeaways, cheaper shopping et al. It's money management that's the problem, not a systemic over-extended problem.0 -
I believe some members of that famed Labour Ground Game team are still missing at sea...a year later...chestnut said:
Hello, Labour Ground Game, my old friendDanny565 said:George Eaton @georgeeaton 1m1 minute ago
Remain campaign polling has them ahead but four points down in last week, source says.
You've come to talk with me again0 -
I think they'd reckon they could absorb them. Right-wing populists who approach power usually start to soften up - e.g. the Danske Folkeparti, which has some influence on the government. I suspect that Trump will do exactly the same.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
There are some fragile signs that the far right is slightly off the boil - the French polls don't look quite as good for Le Pen, the AfD is down slightly after a scandal, the Swedish and Danish parties are off their peaks. I think it's mainly an effect of immigration having dropped out of the headlines in most countries, but there's a tendency for them to galvanise opposition too, as happned in the end in Austria, when people bit their lips and voted for a leftie pro-immigation green.0 -
Dr. Prasannan, thanks
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His torment is my soulfood. I was a big Dave fan once. I feel utterly betrayed. As do millions more. I desperately hope the plebs can land one on the elite and their cosy status quo. Fuck 'em.Patrick said:... the trend is against them.
Eeek.
You can see why Cameron is panicking.
The one outcome of this referendum is the final nail in the coffin of GO's chances of becoming PM.
He's toast.0 -
I think it's pretty clear the only purpose of this referendum was to use the result of it (which was expected to be a clear victory) as a political tool to marginalise the eurosceptics.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
The renegotiation was a sham. The referendum was (and is) a sham.
There was never any serious thought or belief it might be lost and, now it looks possible, the powers that be are showing their true colours.
Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.0 -
At the very least, I think there must be serious thought being given to treating the Referendum as purely advisory, in the event of a Leave vote.Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.0 -
Why would you vote for something you don't agree with? Makes no sense whatsoever.Casino_Royale said:
I think it's pretty clear the only purpose of this referendum was to use the result of it (which was expected to be a clear victory) as a political tool to marginalise the eurosceptics.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
The renegotiation was a sham. The referendum was (and is) a sham.
There was never any serious thought or belief it might be lost and, now it looks possible, the powers that be are showing their true colours.
Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
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It's all about the logic I think. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Farage is not saying all migrants are sex pests. He is saying some migrants are sex pests in the expectation (in Welby's view, I think) that people will equate migrants with sex attacks. In doing so he legitimises racism.david_herdson said:
I'm curious about Welby's logic. Presumably, from what he says, racism can be legitimate if endorsed by individuals of sufficient authority - which he implies that Farage is?Alanbrooke said:
ROFL yes, that really will turn back the tide of "stuff the establishment".TheScreamingEagles said:The Archbishop of Canterbury is coming out with some incredibly helpful lines for Remain and damaging for Farage
ABoC: Farage's claim linking migrants to sex attacks is"inexcusable pandering" to prejudice and "legitimising racism"
Old Etonian, scion of posh boys and Archbishop says the plebs must behave from his London palace.0 -
Jobabob said:
Why would you vote for staying in the EU? Makes no sense whatsoever.Casino_Royale said:
I think it's pretty clear the only purpose of this referendum was to use the result of it (which was expected to be a clear victory) as a political tool to marginalise the eurosceptics.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
The renegotiation was a sham. The referendum was (and is) a sham.
There was never any serious thought or belief it might be lost and, now it looks possible, the powers that be are showing their true colours.
Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave. 0 -
Exactly right. The far-right wing suffer from the same Catch-22 faced by nationalist movements like ScotYes and Leave – the more they look likely to happen, the less likely they are to happen.NickPalmer said:
I think they'd reckon they could absorb them. Right-wing populists who approach power usually start to soften up - e.g. the Danske Folkeparti, which has some influence on the government. I suspect that Trump will do exactly the same.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
There are some fragile signs that the far right is slightly off the boil - the French polls don't look quite as good for Le Pen, the AfD is down slightly after a scandal, the Swedish and Danish parties are off their peaks. I think it's mainly an effect of immigration having dropped out of the headlines in most countries, but there's a tendency for them to galvanise opposition too, as happned in the end in Austria, when people bit their lips and voted for a leftie pro-immigation green.0 -
Hmm, read something similar in the atlantic recently :-PlatoSaid said:
I remember a Telegraph article from yrs ago saying a 1% rise interest rise would stick a load of mortgages into peril. I find that depressing but believeable.PAW said:"A third of middle class people would not be able to pay an unexpected £500 bill because of the squeeze on wages and rising living costs" - I wonder if the AB crowd are really as comfortable as we think?
However, the Middle Class would easily find £500 if they didn't buy the latest phone, shoes, takeaways, cheaper shopping et al. It's money management that's the problem, not a systemic over-extended problem.
"More than two-thirds of Americans with incomes of less than $40,000 say they would sell something or borrow money in the event of a $400 emergency expense"
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/heres-how-many-americans-would-struggle-to-pay-a-400-emergency-expense/446454/
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Or they could just vote on the merits of the question being put forward to them, or is that too much like democracy?Casino_Royale said:Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
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To make a point about democracy.Jobabob said:
Why would you vote for something you don't agree with? Makes no sense whatsoever.Casino_Royale said:
I think it's pretty clear the only purpose of this referendum was to use the result of it (which was expected to be a clear victory) as a political tool to marginalise the eurosceptics.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
The renegotiation was a sham. The referendum was (and is) a sham.
There was never any serious thought or belief it might be lost and, now it looks possible, the powers that be are showing their true colours.
Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
The powers that be have said we Remain if we vote Remain and we Remain if we vote Leave.
So it doesn't matter which way you vote anymore, except to show them who's boss.0 -
Sky reporting capital flight ahead of Brexit vote0
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Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why would you vote for those unpatriotic scurrilous wreckers Leave? Makes no sense whatsoever.Jobabob said:
Why would you vote for staying in the EU? Makes no sense whatsoever.Casino_Royale said:
I think it's pretty clear the only purpose of this referendum was to use the result of it (which was expected to be a clear victory) as a political tool to marginalise the eurosceptics.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
The renegotiation was a sham. The referendum was (and is) a sham.
There was never any serious thought or belief it might be lost and, now it looks possible, the powers that be are showing their true colours.
Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
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I would have thought all this talk of MPs "blocking" a NO vote is counterprodtcive.SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
Not only does it look appallingly arrogant it could also make undecided's think they can vote LEAVE without the risk that we would leave?0 -
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The very young and those who don't usually vote won't turnout anything like as much as expected.RoyalBlue said:I'm beginning to think the referendum will come down to working class turnout. If it's at general election levels Remain wins; if people who don't usually vote make the effort, Leave wins.
Thoughts?
Pensioners, the politically engaged and ABs will - same as usual.
If Leave are relying on the working class vote, we lose.0 -
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.0 -
But that only ends one way.Sean_F said:
One of the things that intrigues me is what would happen if an insurgent right wing party were to win an election in a Western European country, or looked as if it would do so. I wonder if the authorities would resort to force to prevent it.SeanT said:BTW that Spectator piece explaining how MPS will ignore us, if we vote, LEAVE, is really quite something
De haut en bas, or what
And Dave's stepfather-in-law is clearly not pleased with his stepson-in-law.
I hope it would never happen here.0 -
@faisalislam: Great scoop from @EdConwaySky on capital flight from £ in run up to referendum - March biggest month since fin crisis - £1.3m every minute0
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Conway ? Must be a run on first class rail ticket prices.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Great scoop from @EdConwaySky on capital flight from £ in run up to referendum - March biggest month since fin crisis - £1.3m every minute
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but didn't Cameron say Leave means leave?GIN1138 said:
I would have thought all this talk of MPs "blocking" a NO vote is counterprodtcive.SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
Not only does it look appallingly arrogant it could also make undecided's think they can vote LEAVE without the risk that we would leave?0 -
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.0 -
Doesn't matter. If you vote the wrong way the vote will be ignored.williamglenn said:
Or they could just vote on the merits of the question being put forward to them, or is that too much like democracy?Casino_Royale said:Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.0 -
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Is there any point in not voting Leave? They will ignore it, short term, but short term you can feel good about yourself. And longer term, plan to kick them out of office...Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
Vote Leave. Make a stand.0 -
Perhaps because the BBC has an office in Cologne which somehow missed the original story when it happened.LadyBucket said:
What might be in his favour re the Cologne attacks, the BBC 24-hour News did an item on this, this very morning, which really surprised me.Philip_Thompson said:
He was awful in the seven way debate last year. Leavers can thank their lucky stars that Farage has not been running the show and that Hoey, Johnson, Gove etc have made this as close as it is. He may be OK tonight if he remembers he's trying to appeal to a majority of the nation and not core vote only.PlatoSaid said:
I'd be very, very surprised = he's been doing this for years with live audiences. He can be too blokey for some, but he's very good at it.david_herdson said:
Possibly he will but there are risks in knowing the subject inside out. The first is not pitching at the right level for the audience's own knowledge - either patronisingly simply or too technical an complex - and the second is assuming that everyone else is as interested in the subject as he is.Sean_F said:
I expect Farage will do very well in the debate. He knows the subject inside out.RobC said:There's no doubt the last minute heebie geebie bee factor will be enough win it for Remain. Cameron also I suspect will demolish Farage tonight. Leave probably have peaked.
He may well not do that but his task tonight is a very different one from that which he had at the general election debate (in which he became too angry).0 -
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.0 -
@SkyNewsBreak: Bank of England figures show £65bn either left the UK or was converted into other currencies in the first two months of the #EUref campaign0
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Why should they bother?SeanT said:FAO jobabob
"One Remain source admitted to me they were starting to panic about the result, joining several senior figures who in recent days have told me they are seriously worried about voters who are notionally on their side staying at home....
The widespread assumption has been that Remain will win. But as the clock ticks down that assumption is feeling pretty shaky - watching the prime minister this morning, it doesn't feel like he completely believes it any more"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471788
Government will ignore the vote anyway.0 -
Rubbish. If this were the case, it would be visible in the FX markets. Sterling has bobbed around between 1.40 and 1.45 since January, which is par for the course.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Great scoop from @EdConwaySky on capital flight from £ in run up to referendum - March biggest month since fin crisis - £1.3m every minute
The only way this could be true is if the Bank of England has been intervening to defend the value of sterling, but I don't think think their reserves are anything like sufficient considering the flows involved.0 -
As I said a week or two ago, the complacency of Remain and commentators/analysts/city forecasters has been staggering. Dan Hodges being a prime witness. There was never a point when one could say that it was safe to have a widespread assumption that Remain will win.SeanT said:FAO jobabob
"One Remain source admitted to me they were starting to panic about the result, joining several senior figures who in recent days have told me they are seriously worried about voters who are notionally on their side staying at home....
The widespread assumption has been that Remain will win. But as the clock ticks down that assumption is feeling pretty shaky - watching the prime minister this morning, it doesn't feel like he completely believes it any more"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471788
The anti-elite/sod-you/migration issue has always had the potential to trump all the economic arguments. Combine that with the stay-at-home Remain vote, especially the young and it was always going to be at least very tight.
I remain a Remainer, but betting on Leave.0 -
I think so... Your guess is as good as mine as to what the hell is going on with REMAIN. Strikes me they're thrashing around in a state of complete blind panic.kjohnw said:
but didn't Cameron say Leave means leave?GIN1138 said:
I would have thought all this talk of MPs "blocking" a NO vote is counterprodtcive.SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
Not only does it look appallingly arrogant it could also make undecided's think they can vote LEAVE without the risk that we would leave?0 -
I was reading a report from an investment house yesterday, suggesting that Brexit will be good for the FTSE - it will force Govt. to address structural issues in the economy, which would otherwise drift along if we vote to Remain...Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Great scoop from @EdConwaySky on capital flight from £ in run up to referendum - March biggest month since fin crisis - £1.3m every minute
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The regional polls - London, Wales and Scotland - have been there or thereabouts last May and this May and certain pollsters have credibility in each of these areas.
Any national poll that starts posting subsamples wildly at odds with them is most likely nonsense.0 -
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@MikeK
'The EU and Europe as a whole is in a war, whether the powers that be acknowledge it or no.
https://twitter.com/BreitbartLondon/status/740186597115629568'
Clearly Merkel's fault for not providing luxurious accommodation.
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Sounds like another desperate Remain fib.RoyalBlue said:
Rubbish. If this were the case, it would be visible in the FX markets. Sterling has bobbed around between 1.40 and 1.45 since January, which is par for the course.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Great scoop from @EdConwaySky on capital flight from £ in run up to referendum - March biggest month since fin crisis - £1.3m every minute
The only way this could be true is if the Bank of England has been intervening to defend the value of sterling, but I don't think think their reserves are anything like sufficient considering the flows involved.0 -
They won't have time. The whole government will be spending the next X years sorting out the mess and renegotiating trade deals.MarqueeMark said:
I was reading a report from an investment house yesterday, suggesting that Brexit will be good for the FTSE - it will force Govt. to address structural issues in the economy, which would otherwise drift along if we vote to Remain...Scott_P said:@faisalislam: Great scoop from @EdConwaySky on capital flight from £ in run up to referendum - March biggest month since fin crisis - £1.3m every minute
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OT I see Hillary is much more energised today after getting within touching distance of the nomination.0
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Undoubtedly, one of the finest puns ever seen on PB.com - congatulations TSE!0
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How does this post differ from the speech made by Farage which nearly everyone except the most dyed-in-the-wool UKIPers found to be unacceptable stereotyping. For the benefit of Mortimer reading between the lines means a subtext. Not really necessary with this except for the first paragraphCyclefree said:
Which is precisely why I said that I do not like what Farage is doing and why I used the phrase "some" rather than "all" and "careful thought" and deportation of people who break our laws i.e. after a trial and conviction which I - rather better than you, I think - understand involves making a decision on the facts. Perhaps you need to learn to read and understand a bit more carefully than assuming that I said things which I did not say.Roger said:
For a lawyer you really seem to struggle with the concept of racial stereotyping. Most lawyers I know -and I'm from a family of them- like to take every case on its merit. I always thought it was something to do with their training. A few disclaimers which usually find their way into your later paragraphs doesn't excuse it at all. A basic lesson most learn at school. "Because Billy was a Scotsman and Billy was mean doesn't make every Scotsman mean.Cyclefree said:TheScreamingEagles said:
It is those who say that something must not be said because it might lead others to make unwarranted conclusions who are afraid of the facts. And the AoC appears to fall into this category. As, I am afraid, do you. You seem quite unwilling to accept that some migrants have - on the evidence we have seen in Germany and elsewhere - an approach to women which many women find really quite repellent and which often involve breaches of our laws. Saying so is not pandering to prejudice or racism. Not talking about issues does not make them go away. It risks making them worse and it makes the victims of crimes feel abandoned. Please go and read the evidence - as I have - in some of the recent grooming cases in Britain if you want to know what the jury found. Or the report on Rotherham and why those crimes were ignored.
I have been a victim of serious sexual assault and I feel pretty angry when others either seek to diminish what women like me suffer because they daren't criticise the attacker or seek to make spurious political points out of our suffering.
You cannot deal with problems if you ignore them. If people like the AoC won't talk sensibly about the problems of sexual assault and the problems of young men coming from cultures with very different approaches to women and women's sexuality than our own then he can hardly complain if it is left to the Farages of this world to do so and to do so in a way which sheds more heat than light on the subject.
.
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Well if he approved of Cameron as a son-in-law he can't be the sharpest knife in the box.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.0 -
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.0 -
She seems to take long breaks for rest and recuperation.PlatoSaid said:OT I see Hillary is much more energised today after getting within touching distance of the nomination.
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Mr. Royale, the Government hasn't overtly said that, has it?
I agree the mood music is deeply concerning.0 -
I was on that line this weekend...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.0 -
Unless it's FPTP?Casino_Royale said:
Doesn't matter. If you vote the wrong way the vote will be ignored.williamglenn said:
Or they could just vote on the merits of the question being put forward to them, or is that too much like democracy?Casino_Royale said:Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.0 -
I've just cancelled my plans for the weekend. I will be out canvassing all the time instead.SeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.
Remain must be CRUSHED.0 -
@Luckyguy1983 - picking up from my hit and run earlier.Luckyguy1983 said:
Um, this could get embarrassing for you. Let me try again.TOPPING said:
They have not quite decided on which of the following they mean:Pro_Rata said:Noted that £20bn of pain is at the modest end, a little over 1% of the economy. And it is plenty to wipe out the £9bn/yr, £250 m/wk paid to the EU by the public sector. And note that a one time only reduction followed by perfectly respectable growth (equivalent to being in the EU and running British economic policy - as we do now) wipes out any public purse advantage, not just in the short-term but in the longer run too.
Frankly, if outers now accept that some pain is going to happen but is worth it, it is a plain admission that all this extra for the NHS that they bang on about is either substantially or totally gut rot.
1) there will be pain but it is a price worth paying; or
2) the UK will thrive outside the EU.
and use both interchangeably, often in the same post.
Those two statements, and this is not an endorsemhe past few weeks has been truly sad to see.
The two statements. Are not. Contradictory. It's entirely possible. To take an economic hit. And end up better off. Look up 'investment' in the dictionary as an example.
You are right to say that both 1) and 2) could both be argued if you consider that they operate over different timescales.
However, that is not the same as saying, here is a chunk of £350 / £250 / £150m a week (or whatever) that we pay to the EU that would be immediately available to the NHS if only we left the EU. Leave campaign are fundamentally wrong in implying that, if they accept that 1) could apply in any way.
Any most leavers on here are now accepting that 1) is some part of the deal.
So, the correct argument if accepting 1) is: OK, we will leave the EU and there will be no more money for the NHS, and could be less in the short-term, but although UK economic policy is broadly run by the UK for the UK already, we will have a couple of additional levers over UK trade policy and taxes such as VAT, and we might just be able to make better economic decisions over the years and decades to come and improve growth from where it otherwise would have been (even acknowledging that a big risk of Brexit is a political disruption that might result in worse short/medium-term decision making), so that in the fullness of time there MIGHT be a little more money for the NHS, which may or may not resemble the amount of money we used to pay into the EU all those years ago.
Snappy. Vote Leave should take me on, I think
0 -
It's a lot better than Once Upon a Time.TheWhiteRabbit said:
I was on that line this weekend...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
0 -
Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?0 -
Sunil says.... "Keep Calm and Vote LEAVE!"Scott_P said:0 -
Euro Guido
Osborne coordinating Chinese support for Remain: https://t.co/j29AYMG9to0 -
That's what I was trying to work out. The vote is on leaving the EU, not leaving the EEA.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?0 -
The problem is that one afternoon Boris and Gove decided that they'd have to go big on immigration to win so they'd have to sacrifice the Single Market to have any credibility.not_on_fire said:No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
0 -
Blair got a majority of seats in 2005 thanks to FPTP.not_on_fire said:
Unless it's FPTP?Casino_Royale said:
Doesn't matter. If you vote the wrong way the vote will be ignored.williamglenn said:
Or they could just vote on the merits of the question being put forward to them, or is that too much like democracy?Casino_Royale said:Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
They also use it a lot in the two of the world's largest democracies: India and the USA.0 -
*claps*Casino_Royale said:
I've just cancelled my plans for the weekend. I will be out canvassing all the time instead.SeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.
Remain must be CRUSHED.0 -
I've been awaiting your shift to REMAIN, as the election nears. Your usual MO is to blowhard, using as much inflammatory language as possible, before eventually your intellect takes hold and you see sense. Only a few days now, before you join the REMAIN camp.SeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.0 -
I did Ipswich to Lowestoft for the first time yesterdayTheWhiteRabbit said:
I was on that line this weekend...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral. 0 -
That sounds like some form of euphemism or am I reading too much into it?williamglenn said:
She seems to take long breaks for rest and recuperation.PlatoSaid said:OT I see Hillary is much more energised today after getting within touching distance of the nomination.
0 -
Since when has the USA been a democracy?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Blair got a majority of seats in 2005 thanks to FPTP.not_on_fire said:
Unless it's FPTP?Casino_Royale said:
Doesn't matter. If you vote the wrong way the vote will be ignored.williamglenn said:
Or they could just vote on the merits of the question being put forward to them, or is that too much like democracy?Casino_Royale said:Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
They also use it a lot in the two of the world's largest democracies: India and the USA>0 -
There would be riots on the streets if the Government even tried to ignore a Leave vote, and if Labour try to block it they will be finished as a political partySeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.0 -
5k migrants have tried to enter the EU via Bulgarian/Turkish border this year already
300 arrived in Crete on Friday alone.
Turkish authorities said the EU agreement was *practically shelved* = I'm totally shocked.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/migrants-surge-for-bulgaria-land-route-vs6pzkq520 -
Don't even try and talk to me.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
I don't engage with autocrats and anti-democrats.
I work to defeat them.0 -
Well the phrase is often a euphemism but I just meant that she's clapped out and can't seem to cope with a battering campaign schedule.peter_from_putney said:
That sounds like some form of euphemism or am I reading too much into it?williamglenn said:
She seems to take long breaks for rest and recuperation.PlatoSaid said:OT I see Hillary is much more energised today after getting within touching distance of the nomination.
0 -
The one benefit of having luke-warm Remainer Corbyn in place is that if there is a Leave vote, he isn't going to die in a ditch for Remain. He'll probably chuckle a bit at the anarchy of it all. Then whip his MPs to support the Referendum outcome.kjohnw said:
There would be riots on the streets if the Government even tried to ignore a Leave vote, and if Labour try to block it they will be finished as a political partySeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.
Job done.0 -
I reakon a lot of this "we'll ignore the referendum" stuff is just bluster. A bit like how Brown thought he might be able to ignore the will of the British people in 2010 and cling on to power.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.
We know how that worked out...
At least I hope it's just bluster. My opinion of David Cameron is poor but I don't think he's an anti-democratic dictator. Is he?0 -
Cameron has to be quizzed on this tonight. Anything but a clear cut acceptance of the result will be remarkably bad for Remain.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.
0 -
Still plenty of time yet. I predict a conversion, on June 22/23 or maybe June 24.SeanT said:
You're not following me closely enough. I'm OUT, 100%. And preparing for the possible shock.Jobabob said:
I've been awaiting your shift to REMAIN, as the election nears. Your usual MO is to blowhard, using as much inflammatory language as possible, before eventually your intellect takes hold and you see sense. Only a few days now, before you join the REMAIN camp.SeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.
All this crap about "ignoring the result" from REMAINERS only makes me more insistent on voting against their will. It's loathsome.0 -
The problem with reading between the lines is that there is only empty space there - empty space into which you seem to be projecting your own imaginings.Roger said:
How does this post differ from the speech made by Farage which nearly everyone except the most dyed-in-the-wool UKIPers found to be unacceptable stereotyping. For the benefit of Mortimer reading between the lines means a subtext. Not really necessary with this except for the first paragraphCyclefree said:
...Roger said:
For a lawyer you really seem to struggle with the concept of racial stereotyping. Most lawyers I know -and I'm from a family of them- like to take every case on its merit. I always thought it was something to do with their training. A few disclaimers which usually find their way into your later paragraphs doesn't excuse it at all. A basic lesson most learn at school. "Because Billy was a Scotsman and Billy was mean doesn't make every Scotsman mean.Cyclefree said:TheScreamingEagles said:
It is those who say that something must not be said because it might lead others to make unwarranted conclusions who are afraid of the facts. And the AoC appears to fall into this category. As, I am afraid, do you. You seem quite unwilling to accept that some migrants have - on the evidence we have seen in Germany and elsewhere - an approach to women which many women find really quite repellent and which often involve breaches of our laws. Saying so is not pandering to prejudice or racism. Not talking about issues does not make them go away. It risks making them worse and it makes the victims of crimes feel abandoned. Please go and read the evidence - as I have - in some of the recent grooming cases in Britain if you want to know what the jury found. Or the report on Rotherham and why those crimes were ignored.
I have been a victim of serious sexual assault and I feel pretty angry when others either seek to diminish what women like me suffer because they daren't criticise the attacker or seek to make spurious political points out of our suffering.
You cannot deal with problems if you ignore them. If people like the AoC won't talk sensibly about the problems of sexual assault and the problems of young men coming from cultures with very different approaches to women and women's sexuality than our own then he can hardly complain if it is left to the Farages of this world to do so and to do so in a way which sheds more heat than light on the subject.
.
Unless you're really saying we shouldn't talk about any negative impact of migration at all? Ever?0 -
Point of order. Lord Astor is not the government. I see that some Leavers have got so hysterical that this point escapes them.0
-
-
Of course he will say that. Project Fear depends on making people see a direct line between a cross on the ballot paper next to Leave and bad things. If he suggests politicians will have any room for manoeuvre it undermines the fear.MarqueeMark said:
Cameron has to be quizzed on this tonight. Anything but a clear cut acceptance of the result will be remarkably bad for Remain.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.0 -
No, but he is the Prime Ministers father-in-law and one assume's he's probably spoken to his son-in-law before writing this piece?Richard_Nabavi said:Point of order. Lord Astor is not the government. I see that some Leavers have got so hysterical that this point escapes them.
0 -
For bluster - it's been very damaging. It's cemented wavering Leavers and confirmed their worst fears of Remain arrogance.GIN1138 said:
I reakon a lot of this "we'll ignore the referendum" stuff is just bluster. A bit like how Brown thought he might be able to ignore the will of the British people in 2010 and cling on to power.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.
We know how that worked out...
At least I hope it's just bluster. My opinion of David Cameron is poor but I don't think he's an anti-democratic dictator. Is he?0 -
I wonder whether Farage will go to town on this in the debate tonight?SeanT said:
Whatever the answer I think REMAIN - Cameron himself - has to come right out very soon and say it is rubbish, and he will respect the result, because letting this fester is one certain way for him to lose the vote, along with any residual affection for him, in wider Tory circles
0 -
Let's get one thing straight. If we vote to Leave, all that has been decided is that Britain will be coming out of the EU. That cannot be questioned.GIN1138 said:
I reakon a lot of this "we'll ignore the referendum" stuff is just bluster. A bit like how Brown thought he might be able to ignore the will of the British people in 2010 and cling on to power.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.
We know how that worked out...
At least I hope it's just bluster. My opinion of David Cameron is poor but I don't think he's an anti-democratic dictator. Is he?
But nothing else will have been decided. Whether it will be a EEA or EFTA, or glorious isolation or mixtures of each will be up to Parliament. It cannot be any other way.
Since the Maastricht rebels played funny business, so can others. There is a 2 - 1 majority in Parliament on the Remain [ close to ] in the EU. Even a Brexit PM cannot do anything. Her Majesty cannot grant a dissolution motion.0 -
Given Kinnock Jnr has been quoted - it's a straight line to his mum and dad.GIN1138 said:
I wonder whether Farage will go to town on this in the debate tonight?SeanT said:
Whatever the answer I think REMAIN - Cameron himself - has to come right out very soon and say it is rubbish, and he will respect the result, because letting this fester is one certain way for him to lose the vote, along with any residual affection for him, in wider Tory circles0 -
It's naughty of me to post this from just over a year ago, but an indication of how things have developed in a way that was not universally expected. Apologies to Richard.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/05/12/mr-cameron-might-rue-the-day-that-his-party-was-reluctant-to-embrace-the-reform-of-the-house-of-lords/Richard_Nabavi said:
Exactly, you make my point perfectly. This is why the Out side are not only going to lose, but are going to be trounced.Richard_Tyndall said:I gave up at 'unbiased'. That is one thing you have never been.
This is so obvious, it beggars belief that those who seriously want us to leave the EU (rather than just moan about it) don't see what is going to hit them. It is staggering, absolutely staggering, that they haven't already started organising the campaign, and in such a way that they can attract moderate Conservatives, such as myself, who might be persuadable.
My long-term forecast used to be that the In side would win 60:40, but, given the way things are developing, 70:30 is more likely, I think.0 -
Not sure how that's relevant at all?!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Blair got a majority of seats in 2005 thanks to FPTP.not_on_fire said:
Unless it's FPTP?Casino_Royale said:
Doesn't matter. If you vote the wrong way the vote will be ignored.williamglenn said:
Or they could just vote on the merits of the question being put forward to them, or is that too much like democracy?Casino_Royale said:Which is why anyone who believes truly in democracy and the power of the people must now vote Leave.
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
They also use it a lot in the two of the world's largest democracies: India and the USA.0 -
Don`t be daft He has made bizarre comments before.GIN1138 said:
No, but he is the Prime Ministers father-in-law and one assume's he's probably spoken to his son-in-law before writing this piece?Richard_Nabavi said:Point of order. Lord Astor is not the government. I see that some Leavers have got so hysterical that this point escapes them.
0 -
surbiton said:
Let's get one thing straight. If we vote to Leave, all that has been decided is that Britain will be coming out of the EU. That cannot be questioned.GIN1138 said:
I reakon a lot of this "we'll ignore the referendum" stuff is just bluster. A bit like how Brown thought he might be able to ignore the will of the British people in 2010 and cling on to power.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.
We know how that worked out...
At least I hope it's just bluster. My opinion of David Cameron is poor but I don't think he's an anti-democratic dictator. Is he?
But nothing else will have been decided. Whether it will be a EEA or EFTA, or glorious isolation or mixtures of each will be up to Parliament. It cannot be any other way.
Since the Maastricht rebels played funny business, so can others. There is a 2 - 1 majority in Parliament on the Remain [ close to ] in the EU. Even a Brexit PM cannot do anything. Her Majesty cannot grant a dissolution motion.
I'm not sure there's enough popcorn in all the world, if they actually try that.
0 -
Mr. Mark, he should be. We'll see.
Mr. Gin, it's stupid if it is bluster.0 -
The odds on 'Leave' seem to be drifting on Betfair - now at 3.55. Remain are still the overwhelming favourites, though you wouldn't think so reading this blog...0
-
I'm an anti-democrat for pointing out the right of our democratically elected legislature's right to decide on our future in the event of a Leave vote? If you want the people to decide perhaps you should be calling for an EEA vs EFTA vs WTO referendum. I'm sure the public can't wait.Casino_Royale said:
Don't even try and talk to me.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
I don't engage with autocrats and anti-democrats.
I work to defeat them.0 -
Do a deal with Brexit Tories that certain workers rights cannot be amended without 66% of the votes in Parliament, for example ?MarqueeMark said:
The one benefit of having luke-warm Remainer Corbyn in place is that if there is a Leave vote, he isn't going to die in a ditch for Remain. He'll probably chuckle a bit at the anarchy of it all. Then whip his MPs to support the Referendum outcome.kjohnw said:
There would be riots on the streets if the Government even tried to ignore a Leave vote, and if Labour try to block it they will be finished as a political partySeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.
Job done.0 -
Farage and Cameron on at 9pm ITV tonight.0
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OK, that's different, and I completely agree that would be outrageous.SeanT said:
You're missing the latest take. Lord Astor (Cameron's father in law) has gone beyond the sort-of ignore the referendum and stay-in-the-single-market thing, he's now saying that MPs would (and should) completely ignore this ADVISORY referendum, and simply not pass the legislation to get us out.not_on_fire said:Casino_Royale said:
Poor.williamglenn said:
Is that your opinion of FPTP General Elections too?Casino_Royale said:
Democracy is when every vote matters.
This is a total sham.
The UK doesn't ignore General Election verdicts.
The UK Government is now making it clear it would ignore a Leave vote.
No, it's making it clear that in the democratically elected MPs may opt to stay in the Single Market in the event of a Leave vote. Since the EU is not the same as the Single Market, what's the problem?
For what it's worth, I don't think many MPs would be insane enough to try this, but the fact Establishment figures are coming out with this sinister bilge is really quite startling.0 -
I don't think it would even come to that - Cameron would be voted out of office by his own MPs within two weeks.MarqueeMark said:
The one benefit of having luke-warm Remainer Corbyn in place is that if there is a Leave vote, he isn't going to die in a ditch for Remain. He'll probably chuckle a bit at the anarchy of it all. Then whip his MPs to support the Referendum outcome.kjohnw said:
There would be riots on the streets if the Government even tried to ignore a Leave vote, and if Labour try to block it they will be finished as a political partySeanT said:
Quite. Remainers are scum. Anti democratic scum, at that.Casino_Royale said:
Don't worry. I have emailed it to Matthew Elliot and Vote Leave HQ.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The Prime Ministers father in law went into print with that? To do that now is beyond Barking, Upminter or even Southend, it is fullblown Shoeburyness!Casino_Royale said:
Is there any point in voting at all?SeanT said:Helpful intervention from David Cameron's father in law, Lord Astor, saying even if we vote LEAVE, MPs will block it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/the-eurosceptic-case-for-voting-remain/
This needs to go viral.
My views on Remainers are rapidly approaching congruence with those of SeanT.
We always knew it. What is amazing is that they now come right out, and admit it.
Job done.0
