politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How LEAVE responds to authority interventions that it doesn

Big_G_NorthWales said:

scoop said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction

I agree the Government campaign for Remain, because it is policy. This is a once in a lifetime event for LEAVE, and they have no strategy, other than you are wrong and we are right. Personally I and most people I talk to will be glad when is is finished. Any ideas on turnout figures you would hope for at least 60%.

I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view.

I used to be of that view. The difference is I no longer have any confidence it can be changed in any meaningful way. The drivers of the EU project do not think it needs changing, not genuinely - that's why the talk is how the UK just moans, and of the contagion of referendums spreading, rather than true recognition of concerns needing to be addressed, instead only seeing them as things to handle without changing direction.

There was an MP called Nick P
Who supported Brown to a Tee
Then the Torys got in
and he was binned
That old MP called Nick P

There is a poster called Sean T
He's a bit up-and-downee
He's not just anyone
A novelist you know hun'
Just don't ask him to talk any sense when the sun is down


I've not looked it up, but I believe limericks of this (well much better) sort were arrived at by Lear.

What I didn't realise until very recently was that Lear was talented in other ways too. A decent painter for example.

Richard_Tyndall said:

. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union.

No they don't. Why on earth do you think that?

Perhaps you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.

Richard_Nabavi said:

another_richard said:

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.

So all of the papers and the broadcast media spontaneously and simultaneously invented something with no input from Cameron?

MP_SE said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide

The failure of the Eurozone is the real issue facing the EU. The kind of solutions required to fix it would marginalise the UK further. Therefore I truly doubt the sort of reform we will see over the coming decades would be of any benefit to the UK as a member of the EU.

You make a fair point and it is appreciated when common sense is the argument and not the abuse dished out by some. I do think it is too early to draw up the bridge but I am not saying that if the EU did not take into account non Eurozonne Countries then the case for leaving would be much stronger. I have been disappointed at the tone of some on here and that one of my recent answers to staying in the EU would be 'democracy'. I do admit it was a wind up to see the reaction. We all need humour in our lives

Richard_Nabavi said:

another_richard said:

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.

No you are wrong he mentioned WW3 and Genocide it was in all the papers so it must be true.

@Scott_P

'So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"


You must have missed Lord Rose telling us that a vote to Leave would result in higher wages.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

MP_SE said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide

The failure of the Eurozone is the real issue facing the EU. The kind of solutions required to fix it would marginalise the UK further. Therefore I truly doubt the sort of reform we will see over the coming decades would be of any benefit to the UK as a member of the EU.

You make a fair point and it is appreciated when common sense is the argument and not the abuse dished out by some. I do think it is too early to draw up the bridge but I am not saying that if the EU did not take into account non Eurozonne Countries then the case for leaving would be much stronger. I have been disappointed at the tone of some on here and that one of my recent answers to staying in the EU would be 'democracy'. I do admit it was a wind up to see the reaction. We all need humour in our lives

I would echo the comments on tone. Referendums appear to bring out the worst in people, and for all passion and even anger are not unreasonable for such momentous happenings, but people get so continually tetchy and suspicious, the atmosphere poisonous.

Richard_Tyndall said:

You cannot have the sort of political union the Eurozone needs whilst leaving key EU members outside.

Why not?

Mr. kle4, that's probably accurate. I think a lot of that (both now and in Scotland two years ago) is because both sides consider the other as wilfully wanting to harm their country by making it subservient to an external power/diminishing its prosperity.

There's also the over the top nonsense in the current campaign (perhaps also Scotland, I paid less attention to that) which does not engender serious debate, and does antagonise people.

john_zims said:

You must have missed Lord Rose telling us that a vote to Leave would result in higher wages.

Higher wages for the non-Polish plumber.

Lower income for everyone else in the country

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.

More likely it was briefed to the media clumsily and they saw a chance for a story by twisting what they had been told, or just got over-excited.

After all, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? To take a counter-example on the other side, Boris' recent words were twisted into headlines saying he was a Putin apologist. That was equally silly.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

So all of the papers and the broadcast media spontaneously and simultaneously invented something with no input from Cameron?

Seems like it. Personally I go by what politicians actually say, not by what excitable journalists think in advance they might say.

It's a principle I recommend. It would avoid people making fools of themselves, as they did (as one example out of zillions) over the inventions about John Whittingdale's plans for the Beeb. Remember that nonsense about the scheduling of Strictly Come Dancing?

Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.

So they briefed WW3 and Genocide waited for a couple of journalists on the Press Review to decide if it would be OK and then changed the speech to Security risks. That is a lot clearer now.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

You cannot have the sort of political union the Eurozone needs whilst leaving key EU members outside.

Why not?

Because the degree of union needed by the Eurozone would mean effectively having two completely separate sets of institutions if the non Eurozone members were not to be sucked in. It is not a practical proposal. I wish it were because it would result in de facto Brexit anyway. But you have to be realistic about this. Both practicality and aspiration are driving the EU to political union and if we remain in we will have to sacrifice more of our independence. Once we have voted not to leave they are simply not going accept any more of our obstructionism (and nor should they)

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.

And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;

No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument

You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.

But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other

But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.

My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction

You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.

Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?

Stop telling silly lies.

As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?

Stop telling silly lies.

Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.

Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.

I know it belongs to the previous thread, but I think that Leave want Farage not to appear much on TV during the campaign for the same reason Remain want Farage on TV.

He energizes Labour voters for Remain.

If you want to push Labour voters for Leave, have Osborne and Cameron on TV, they hate them.
If you want to push them towards Remain, have Farage on TV.

Simple.

Richard_Nabavi said:

another_richard said:

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.

Has there ever been a Cameron speech you didn't think was 'very good'

Its irrelevant of how good the speech was and what it actually said because nobody listens to such speeches. Its how its reported in the media which matters.

Now why did the media give the impression that the speech was all 'war and genocide' and why were people so willing to believe that and to laugh at it.

Perhaps because Cameron has been trashing his reputation for months with increasingly bizarre utterances.

Cameron is now reaping what he has sowed.

another_richard said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

another_richard said:

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.

Has there ever been a Cameron speech you didn't think was 'very good'

Its irrelevant of how good the speech was and what it actually said because nobody listens to such speeches. Its how its reported in the media which matters.

Now why did the media give the impression that the speech was all 'war and genocide' and why were people so willing to believe that and to laugh at it.

Perhaps because Cameron has been trashing his reputation for months with increasingly bizarre utterances.

Cameron is now reaping what he has sowed.

I remember the last time Cameron gave a good speech, it was when he announced his engagement to Nick Clegg this time six years ago.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Because the degree of union needed by the Eurozone would mean effectively having two completely separate sets of institutions if the non Eurozone members were not to be sucked in. It is not a practical proposal. I wish it were because it would result in de facto Brexit anyway. But you have to be realistic about this. Both practicality and aspiration are driving the EU to political union and if we remain in we will have to sacrifice more of our independence. Once we have voted not to leave they are simply not going accept any more of our obstructionism (and nor should they)

That's where we disagree. I think it will evolve precisely into a situation where ever-closer union is concentrated in the Eurozone. It will just be so much easier for them rather than having to drag us kicking and screaming along with them. Moreover, they have accepted the principle in the renegotiation document. That's why the argument about the exact legalistic interpretation is misplaced: it's an acknowledgement of the reality that we are somewhat detached.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.

More likely it was briefed to the media clumsily and they saw a chance for a story by twisting what they had been told, or just got over-excited.

After all, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? To take a counter-example on the other side, Boris' recent words were twisted into headlines saying he was a Putin apologist. That was equally silly.

So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.

Plato has a lot of experience in these areas and she is clear that the headline came from a common briefing.

david_herdson said:

Casino_Royale said:

david_herdson said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.

It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.

Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.

david_herdson said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.

It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.

Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.

Is there anything (ever) of any sort that could ever convince you for Leave, David?

Genuinely interested.

As things stand, there's nothing that anyone could *say* that would make me vote leave: I prefer to make my own mind up. But events in the future might cause me to switch, potentially.

I don't accept that the EU is a big anti-British club. Although it does sometimes puts forward policies that would hurt Britain, we shouldn't view conspiracy behind either idiocy or misguidedness. Nor do I accept some kind of anti-British structural bias - the divisions within the Eurozone are at least as big as between the Ins and the Outs. But if something like a clear anti-British bias in structure and mindset developed then certainly the least worst option would be to leave.

I do not believe the EU is a big anti-British club.

I do believe that the interests of the EU and those of the UK are to some extent mutually exclusive.

I do not believe the UK has any right to cause further harm to the EU by preventing them taking necessary action to sort out their economic woes - which inevitably is going to require further political union.

Any harm done to the UK by this will not be by spite or intent. It will simply be that the EU can no longer afford to be pushed off track by a single member who does not share their vision.

Pulpstar said:

Wanderer said:

Pulpstar said:

Hillary out to 1.46/1.47

Hmm. And last matched at 1.07 for the nomination.

Sanders hasn't really moved in at all. The prices I remember were Sanders @ 28 / Clinton 1.41ish.

Sanders will head out to 70+ when he loses Kentucky and Oregon... his price is defying gravity right now.

This is a Trump/HRC movement !

Shouldn't he be in with a shout in Oregon? I don't think there's been any polling yet. Kentucky ought to be Hillary's although there's been no polling there this year either.

john_zims said:

Nope, Lord Rose was adamant that wages would increase with a Leave vote

And I said the non-Polish plumber's wages would rise.

But everyone would be worse off.

Wages are not the only thing that would change

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Because the degree of union needed by the Eurozone would mean effectively having two completely separate sets of institutions if the non Eurozone members were not to be sucked in. It is not a practical proposal. I wish it were because it would result in de facto Brexit anyway. But you have to be realistic about this. Both practicality and aspiration are driving the EU to political union and if we remain in we will have to sacrifice more of our independence. Once we have voted not to leave they are simply not going accept any more of our obstructionism (and nor should they)

That's where we disagree. I think it will evolve precisely into a situation where ever-closer union is concentrated in the Eurozone. It will just be so much easier for them rather than having to drag us kicking and screaming along with them. Moreover, they have accepted the principle in the renegotiation document. That's why the argument about the exact legalistic interpretation is misplaced: it's an acknowledgement of the reality that we are somewhat detached.

But to do so would require separate political structures mirroring the wider EU structures. That is simply impractical.

The renegotiation document is worthless. It was a smokescreen to allow Cameron to claim some small victory. It has no meaning beyond that.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.

Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.

Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.

Copy each others unpublished on the way to the presses stories? How do they do that Richard?

PB REMAINers may be seeing why there are so few Labour and Green posters on PB comments given the treatment meted out to dissenters from the consensus...

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union.

(Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union)
No they don't. Why on earth do you think that?
Perhaps you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.

Mr Nabavi - how familiar are you with the 5 Presidents report?

"This report has put forward the principal steps necessary to complete EMU at the latest by 2025. The first initiatives should be launched by the EU institutions as of 1 July 2015. To prepare the transition between Stages 1 and 2, the Commission – in consultation with the Presidents of the other EU institutions – will present a "White Paper" in Spring 2017, assessing progress made in Stage 1 and outlining next steps needed. It will discuss the legal, economic and political preconditions of the more far-reaching measures necessary to complete EMU in Stage 2, and will draw on analytical input from an expert consultation group. Translating the Five Presidents’ report into laws and institutions should begin without delay."

The words in the above are "EU" and "political" and "to complete EMU" aka integration. Therefore it is the EU institutions (EZ and non EZ) that will be changed and working on the activities to facilitate EMU.

david_herdson said:

Pulpstar said:

Wanderer said:

Pulpstar said:

Hillary out to 1.46/1.47

Hmm. And last matched at 1.07 for the nomination.

Sanders hasn't really moved in at all. The prices I remember were Sanders @ 28 / Clinton 1.41ish.

Sanders will head out to 70+ when he loses Kentucky and Oregon... his price is defying gravity right now.

This is a Trump/HRC movement !

Shouldn't he be in with a shout in Oregon? I don't think there's been any polling yet. Kentucky ought to be Hillary's although there's been no polling there this year either.

Oregon should go to Sanders thanks to Eugene (the city), the capital of left wing environmentalism.

Hillary is spending money in ads in Kentucky, it's the first time since March 15th that she has felt the need to do so.

Talking about Hillary, her campaign is co-ordinating with former Jeb! and NeverTrump people, trying to design a campaign to appeal to disaffected establishment republicans.

So her campaign is going to be terrible, and it already shows:

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/731151573485768704

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/731107990514880512

scoop said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.

But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other

But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.

My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction

You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.

Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?

Stop telling silly lies.

As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?

Stop telling silly lies.

Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.

Why so rude it is meant to be a debate/betting forum.

Which is why when people tell lies they should be pointed out.

If we don't then the 'other side' respond with their own lies and before we know it truth and accuracy are smothered.

Mr. EPG, whilst the atmosphere is tense, the dung is not flung in one direction only.

As for Labour and Green supporters, their numbers declined sharply following the General Election.

EPG said:

PB REMAINers may be seeing why there are so few Labour and Green posters on PB comments given the treatment meted out to dissenters from the consensus...

Good post - this great site is becoming very intimidating but I will continue to discuss with either side in genuine debate but some posters who have become insulting will be ignored. It is a shame as many leavers do make good points, indeed persuasive points, but it is drowned out by antagonism others

David_Evershed said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

David_Evershed said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

scoop said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction

I agree the Government campaign for Remain, because it is policy. This is a once in a lifetime event for LEAVE, and they have no strategy, other than you are wrong and we are right. Personally I and most people I talk to will be glad when is is finished. Any ideas on turnout figures you would hope for at least 60%.

The atmosphere, certainly on here, has become rather acrid and it is difficult to try to make a point if you are for remain. I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view. The amount of media coverage together with televised debates will increase the vote in my opinion to that of a GE say 65% + David Cameron needs to be thanked for reducing the campaign to a few months, just imagine if it had been like the Scots referendum

The chance to change the EU was when Cameron negotiated recently. This was against a background that we would leave if changes were not made.

If other EU countries were not prepared to negotiate substantive changes in these circumstaces (which they weren't) then they are never going to change in a way the UK wants.

Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide

The EU will continue to change but become more harmonised, more centralist, more protectionist and continue to spend 40% of its income subsidising an industry (farming) which represents only 3% of Europe's GDP instead of supporting new growth industries.

And all the while regulating itself into sclerosis without addressing the democratic deficit at the core of the project.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.

Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.

Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.

Indeed it would benefit our media if they actually reported a speech after it was made rather than before! We constantly get reports on the news like "in a speech later today...". Very often it bears little resemblence to how it was pitched. The problem is the media wanting to be the news rather than just report it.

Mr. NorthWales, I hope you do stick around. It's worth recalling things became prickly two years ago around the Scottish vote, and there have been ebbs and flows of civility (it was perhaps at its best around 2007-8. Those lamenting the 'conservative' majority now might recall it was not always so).

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?


No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction

You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.

Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?

Stop telling silly lies.

As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?

Stop telling silly lies.

Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.



Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.

Yes you did lie.

You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.

That is a lie.

Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.

Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.


It is not a lie it is like most comments on here an opinion, an opinion that I agree with. What I find offensive is for someone to advise another poster to go away.

Thank you for your support. I am appealing to both sides to cut out the abuse and engage in debate, this site is much better than the trolling and abuse some are using which is wholly unnecessary

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Mr Nabavi - how familiar are you with the 5 Presidents report?

"This report has put forward the principal steps necessary to complete EMU at the latest by 2025. The first initiatives should be launched by the EU institutions as of 1 July 2015. To prepare the transition between Stages 1 and 2, the Commission – in consultation with the Presidents of the other EU institutions – will present a "White Paper" in Spring 2017, assessing progress made in Stage 1 and outlining next steps needed. It will discuss the legal, economic and political preconditions of the more far-reaching measures necessary to complete EMU in Stage 2, and will draw on analytical input from an expert consultation group. Translating the Five Presidents’ report into laws and institutions should begin without delay."

The words in the above are "EU" and "political" and "to complete EMU" aka integration. Therefore it is the EU institutions (EZ and non EZ) that will be changed and working on the activities to facilitate EMU.

Philip Arestis of the University of Cambridge has published a report called 'Can the Report of 'Five Presidents' Save the Euro?' It makes for a really interesting read. I yet to read any reasonable suggestions on how the EU can be reformed without marginalising the UK.

What could save the euro is an interesting and topical question. History teaches us that monetary unions require economic integration to survive. In its absence, as the case is now with the EMU, then political integration is paramount (see, for example, Arestis et al., 2003; see also Arestis and Sawyer, 2006a, 2006b, 2006c). The requirements for effective political union are: EMU-level of expenditure programmes and taxation; and a common social security system, which would enhance labour mobility and would involve elements of redistribution. Fiscal policy would likewise aid economic integration and would involve significant fiscal transfers between countries and regions. It is clear then that political integration is very important for it provides fiscal union that enables coordination of taxation and spending throughout the EMU. Such union would allow the EMU to spread risk across the EMU area and eliminate uneven booms and busts in different regions. Under such arrangements the ECB single interest rate would never be inappropriate for any one country; clearly this is not the case under current arrangements.

http://www.boeckler.de/pdf/v_2015_10_24_arestis.pdf

Richard_Tyndall said:

There was a Prime Minister called Cameron
Who promised we’d have Götterdämmerung
If the EU we left
We would all be bereft
And would not have a pot to squat down upon.

Very good.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

What does the 5 Presidents Report intend for the IMF? Is Osborne aware of this plan?

@CER_Grant: Gove etc keep repeating candard that '5 Presidents report'. No :a) Germany's blocked it and b) it cannot apply to non-€ UK. @InFactsOrg

I thought we were done with appeals to authority? Or is that only authority you don't like?

another_richard said:

scoop said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.

But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other

But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.

My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction

You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.

Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?

Stop telling silly lies.

As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?

Stop telling silly lies.

Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.

Why so rude it is meant to be a debate/betting forum.

Which is why when people tell lies they should be pointed out.

If we don't then the 'other side' respond with their own lies and before we know it truth and accuracy are smothered.

Why use such emotive language, carry on like this and you will end up talking to yourself, and a brilliant and informative web site will be lost.

hunchman said:

Greetings from the Troodos mountains. Went round the Kykkos monastery today which was beautiful. Well worth a visit if you get the chance.

The interior on the monastery is pretty impressive.

hunchman said:

Greetings from the Troodos mountains. Went round the Kykkos monastery today which was beautiful. Well worth a visit if you get the chance.

The Troodos mountains are something of a holy site for geologists as they contain the ophiolite complexes - sections of the lower crust and mantle that were pushed up during the collision between the African and European plates. Very rare and a great insight into the interior of our earth.

foxinsoxuk said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.

Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.

Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.

Indeed it would benefit our media if they actually reported a speech after it was made rather than before! We constantly get reports on the news like "in a speech later today...". Very often it bears little resemblence to how it was pitched. The problem is the media wanting to be the news rather than just report it.

The ones which amuse me are when someone apologises for something he was reported to be about to say but never got round to so doing.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the media, I rather suspect spin doctors try to control the media response by pre-empting the speech.

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sorry but having heard the interview your account is not biased, it is pure fantasy.

You would say that but it is becoming an unsustainable position that everyone is wrong and only leave is right. Leave will need a better narrative by the time of the debates to have any form of creditability

I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.

And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;

No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument

You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.

But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other

But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.

My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

A few very committed Leavers have been laughing at Cameron. Most people have no idea he even made a speech.

Scott_P said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

What does the 5 Presidents Report intend for the IMF? Is Osborne aware of this plan?

@CER_Grant: Gove etc keep repeating candard that '5 Presidents report'. No :a) Germany's blocked it and b) it cannot apply to non-€ UK. @InFactsOrg

I thought we were done with appeals to authority? Or is that only authority you don't like?

Do you even understand how the EU works or do you just copy and paste random crap you find on Twitter?

SouthamObserver said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sorry but having heard the interview your account is not biased, it is pure fantasy.

You would say that but it is becoming an unsustainable position that everyone is wrong and only leave is right. Leave will need a better narrative by the time of the debates to have any form of creditability

I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.

And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;

No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument

You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.

But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other

But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.

My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

A few very committed Leavers have been laughing at Cameron. Most people have no idea he even made a speech.

I didn't realise that the Telegraph cartoonist Matt was a committed Leaver.

Nor the Guardian journalists.

Richard_Tyndall said:

SouthamObserver said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

another_richard said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sorry but having heard the interview your account is not biased, it is pure fantasy.

You would say that but it is becoming an unsustainable position that everyone is wrong and only leave is right. Leave will need a better narrative by the time of the debates to have any form of creditability

I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.

And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;

No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument

You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.

But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other

But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.

My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.

I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.

So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?

A few very committed Leavers have been laughing at Cameron. Most people have no idea he even made a speech.

I didn't realise that the Telegraph cartoonist Matt was a committed Leaver.

Nor the Guardian journalists.

I have no idea. My point was this is all going over most people's heads.

Enough! We can take it no more!
The battle's been fought to a draw
It's ground on for years
Left the country in tears
Just like the Second Punic War