I'm re-posting my post from the last thread because it is pertinent here.
'Usually people vote by self interest which should ward off a leave vote. If people think they'll be poorer outsider the EU, they'll vote in.
That said nationalism does funny things with people's heads. Nationalism is such a nihilistic force, it can lead to people acting against any kind of logic, self interest, or anything else that promotes their well being.
Although political ideology has thankfully had it's day in the sun for now, nationalism and religion are still around unfortunately and unleashing their horrible consequences on the world.'
A striking feature of the Brexit debate is the lack of a core belief in the EU from the Remain campaign. Most advocates of Remain have their own misgivings about the EU, and, knowing that such concerns are widespread in the UK, their arguments for remaining are becoming steadily more extreme and fanciful. One example of this is the claim that Northern Ireland will particularly suffer from Brexit.
The Government’s barrel-scraping approach to making the Remain case was in evidence in Tuesday’s Daily Telegraph article when William Hague made strong claims about the dangers to Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and the Falklands. I like William: we came into Parliament by by-election in the same year, 1989. But as a daughter of Ulster I profoundly disagree with his arguments on Northern Ireland.
....William Hague goes on to claim that "hundreds of millions of euros of European funds are currently diverted into the border region through a special peace programme". The actual figure is much lower at £30 million per annum.
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
Population rising, GDP rising .... can see it round here in Bournville, Birmingham where quite a few new housing developments (some green fields/football pitches gone), blocks of flats, have occurred in the last 12 months ... Overall, the previously shrinking Birmingham is now set to expand in a few years by 300,000 or so to 1.3 mn. More congestion, more concrete, that seems to be our future ....
P.S. Can't imagine that a big chunk of the Rumanian (seem to be making a mark as 'Big Issue' sellers) and Bulgarian intake are doing much for the GDP per capita ..
I suspect Alistair has a large bet with TSE that he can be less popuar than Don Brind
Don Brind has been very good in recent articles. Mr Meeks writes interesting things except when he tells LEAVE all the mistakes they are making which is like the little boy saying "look the king has clothes on" when the king is clearly naked.
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young lawyer called Meeks who used to put goats down his breeks and there once inserted a smile most perverted would stay on his face for two weeks
I suspect Alistair has a large bet with TSE that he can be less popuar than Don Brind
Don Brind has been very good in recent articles. Mr Meeks writes interesting things except when he tells LEAVE all the mistakes they are making which is like the little boy saying "look the king has clothes on" when the king is clearly naked.
The unwillingness to critique your own sides dismal performance despite more money, the PM, HMG staffers, Obama and his dog...
Looks wrong actually. But these sorts of numbers would depend on whether you included EU governments' funding as well as funding by the EU institutions (which you should).
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young bloke called Tyson Who vacuumed his pad with a Dyson He tripped on the stairs And damaged the hairs On his proudly stuffed Bison
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - who they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Nigel Farage
Really? I fear old Nige would ripped limb from limb.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Well it depends if they are scaremongering/bullshitting or not, wouldn't it?
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young lawyer called Meeks who used to put goats down his breeks and there once inserted a smile most perverted would stay on his face for two weeks
Alastair is doing it on purpose now. But it is notable that in no response from Leave has there been an explanation as to why the claims being made are wrong.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - who they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Michael Gove is probably the most sensible voice on the leave team, and the only one I could listen to vaguely- and he really is odd to be honest. Apart from the narcissists and opportunists, the leave team are populated by a veritable rag tag of fruitcakes, closet racists and loonies to paraphrase the great DC.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - who they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Well it depends if they are scaremongering/bullshitting or not, wouldn't it?
That's sort of my point. Who wouldn't be described as a scaremonger/bullshitter if they advocated Remain?
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Well it depends if they are scaremongering/bullshitting or not, wouldn't it?
That's sort of my point. Who wouldn't be described as a scaremonger/bullshitter if they advocated Remain?
Once example here, Stark:
IMF: The UK’s exit from the European Union could cause “severe regional and global damage”.
Alastair is doing it on purpose now. But it is notable that in no response from Leave has there been an explanation as to why the claims being made are wrong.
well really SO what's point ? It's just a Friday pm wind up.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
'I'm re-posting my post from the last thread because it is pertinent here.
'Usually people vote by self interest which should ward off a leave vote. If people think they'll be poorer outsider the EU, they'll vote in.'
Lord Rose told us if we vote Leave wages will go up & George Osborne has told us house prices will come down.
If you are right about self interest then voters can look forward to a wage increase and thousands of people will finally be able to get on the property ladder.
I suspect Alistair has a large bet with TSE that he can be less popuar than Don Brind
Don Brind has been very good in recent articles. Mr Meeks writes interesting things except when he tells LEAVE all the mistakes they are making which is like the little boy saying "look the king has clothes on" when the king is clearly naked.
I like Don Brind. he doesn't seem so popular with the general pb congregation
Is Mr Meeks article giving us all the insight into why LEAVE are 20% behind in the polls?
What? Someone just advised me that the polls are level? Who'd ave thunk it?
So what is the point of this article? How about an article on "WHY HAS PROJECT FEAR FAILED TO GET A LEAD"
Yes, but you've missed off the ?????? - Meeks's question marks; clearly he doesn't know.
Ah ha, so that is why from Meeks/Nabavi/TSE etc we have not had a recent article on why REMAIN are failing to get 20 point leads???????
I think John Curtice (and Peter Kellner) was suggesting that the pollsters are - unlike at the May 15 General election - very much in unchartered territory. Also, how on earth can they estimate differential turnout. But an observer of PB threads might notice that OGH/Meeks/TSE/Nabavi have been exhibiting a "grasping at straws tendency" recently. Mind you, I cannot really criticise, having had quite a few betting losses in the past (2012 US Presidential was a bad one for me).
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young lawyer called Meeks who used to put goats down his breeks and there once inserted a smile most perverted would stay on his face for two weeks
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Well it depends if they are scaremongering/bullshitting or not, wouldn't it?
That's sort of my point. Who wouldn't be described as a scaremonger/bullshitter if they advocated Remain?
Once example here, Stark:
IMF: The UK’s exit from the European Union could cause “severe regional and global damage”.
But the IMF has been decried. (See thread header.)
Alastair is doing it on purpose now. But it is notable that in no response from Leave has there been an explanation as to why the claims being made are wrong.
well really SO what's point ? It's just a Friday pm wind up.
I actually think it is a very clever tactic: rubbish the messenger, question his/her motives and proclaim it is all ridiculous hyperbole. That way you never have to engage with the actual argument. It's straight out of the SNP playbook. Once the referendum is won, it doesn't matter what happens next - you have what you want and there is no going back.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Well it depends if they are scaremongering/bullshitting or not, wouldn't it?
That's sort of my point. Who wouldn't be described as a scaremonger/bullshitter if they advocated Remain?
Once example here, Stark:
IMF: The UK’s exit from the European Union could cause “severe regional and global damage”.
But the IMF has been decried. (See thread header.)
Because their claim is scaremongering. Note the use of the word "could". The UK's exit COULD cause the SKY to FALL in.
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young bloke called Tyson Who vacuumed his pad with a Dyson He tripped on the stairs And damaged the hairs On his proudly stuffed Bison
There was a young blogger called Meeks who thought all the kippers were freaks his posts fast and hectic made them apoplectic till the tears ran down his fat cheeks*
*Ive never met Alistair but Nick Palmer assures me he's a heavyweight
There was a young fellow called Meeks who used to tease Leavers for weeks he'd use insults and trolling and plain made up polling conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
There was a young bloke called Tyson Who vacuumed his pad with a Dyson He tripped on the stairs And sucked off the hairs Of his proudly stuffed Bison
Maybe you're right. I changed the last two lines slightly
There was a young bloke called Tyson Who vacuumed his pad with a Dyson He tripped on the stairs And sucked off the hairs Of his proudly stuffed Bison
Barely a day goes by, even when there’s not a referendum going on (the absence of such plebcites being an all too rare experience in modern Britain, it seems), when some senior figure somewhere doesn’t warn us that talking about immigration is just so… well, vulgar...how about the pressure on local services that the arrival of new citizens will inevitably mean? Does Sir John approve of local people who express concern that their local school has too few English-speaking children attending and not enough interpreters?
...Because whatever the parties say about the right to discuss immigration, they almost always come up with reasons afterwards to stop the very debate they claim to be encouraging. Their reasoning is the same as Sir John’s: because we’re not doing it properly.
But in response to the question I posed earlier – what rules must we abide by when discussing this admittedly and self-evidently sensitive issue? – I fear I know exactly what the answer is: any way that doesn’t encourage people to vote leave on June 23.
Alastair is doing it on purpose now. But it is notable that in no response from Leave has there been an explanation as to why the claims being made are wrong.
well really SO what's point ? It's just a Friday pm wind up.
I actually think it is a very clever tactic: rubbish the messenger, question his/her motives and proclaim it is all ridiculous hyperbole. That way you never have to engage with the actual argument. It's straight out of the SNP playbook. Once the referendum is won, it doesn't matter what happens next - you haver what you want and there is no going back.
what's the argument ?
the problem as I see it is there is no "right" answer. People have differing priorities and what's right for one is probably wrong for someone else. It's vote for what you think is right for you personally and when as a nation we've done that 40 nillion times we might have a balanced answer.
I've just been on the phone to HMRC's Stamp Duty helpline, with the simplest of all conceivable simple questions about Stamp Duty on shares. My question was: if you have a share sale where more than one class of shares is being sold simultaneously (same seller and same purchaser), and on one class of shares the value of the transaction is less than the £1000 cut-off below which Stamp Duty is not payable, does the whole thing count as one related transaction (so you pay stamp duty on the whole lot), or separate transactions where you pay stamp duty only on those classes of shares where the sales value is over £1000?
Answer (after putting me on hold to check with colleagues): They have been asked this many times before, and they don't know.
What really gets me about this sort of stuff is that they have the gall to threaten directors and company secretaries with criminal sanctions for getting this sort of detail wrong, but can't answer the most trivial questions themselves.
What a pity. When I was a youngster the English still had enormous pride in their country and it's history.
Now many English feel they should have been born anywhere but England. They lack pride and indeed, seem to hate their country. So much so, that they would like to make it a department of the EU, and bury themselves in it's amorphous mass.
(1) it's legitimate to point out where organisations have got forecasts wrong before (2) point out their funding and interests and how this might compromise their objectivity (3) that it's a decision for the British people, not international organisations
I think 'conspiracy' should be left unsaid, but people left to draw their own conclusions from their record and their interests.
I've just been on the phone to HMRC's Stamp Duty helpline, with the simplest of all conceivable simple questions about Stamp Duty on shares. My question was: if you have a share sale where more than one class of shares is being sold simultaneously (same seller and same purchaser), and on one class of shares the value of the transaction is less than the £1000 cut-off below which Stamp Duty is not payable, does that count as one related transaction (so you pay stamp duty on the whole lot), or separate transactions where you pay stamp duty only on those classes of shares where the sales value is over £1000?
Answer: They have been asked this many times before, and they don't know.
What really gets me about this sort of stuff is that they have the gall to threaten directors and company secretaries with criminal sanctions for getting this sort of detail wrong, but can't answer the most trivial questions themselves.
When the new EU VAT rules on digit sales came in last year, they didn't have a scooby doo.
An authority figure declared “If you Brexit you must be prepared For your world to subside” But the Leavers replied “You’re an ass with the brain of a bird”
How can Alaisdair MEEKS afford to take off so much time, to pen these interminable screeds. He must have spent hours on this one, it even has special graphics and everything. I picture him beavering away, tongue slightly protruding between his lips, ruler and pencil gripped tightly in his little hands, working deep into the night in his caravan by Lake Balaton.
One can only conclude that he is being paid for his efforts, otherwise it makes no sense. And paid, needless to say, BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT - the EU.
I'm not sure what the agenda is here (if there is one). I'll be honest - I don't really care what the IMF, President Obama, David Cameron, Antifrank, Scott P or anyone else says. Indeed, I don't even much care if there is a temporary economic reversal from us leaving the European Union.
I understand there are those who do and those who are terrified they might lose out on £4,300 by 2030 if we don't vote to REMAIN and those who fear we will collapse into darkness if we don't stay with the EU.
The analogy of the jailer telling the prisoner how lucky he is to be behind bars comes readily to mind.
I've just been on the phone to HMRC's Stamp Duty helpline, with the simplest of all conceivable simple questions about Stamp Duty on shares. My question was: if you have a share sale where more than one class of shares is being sold simultaneously (same seller and same purchaser), and on one class of shares the value of the transaction is less than the £1000 cut-off below which Stamp Duty is not payable, does the whole thing count as one related transaction (so you pay stamp duty on the whole lot), or separate transactions where you pay stamp duty only on those classes of shares where the sales value is over £1000?
Answer (after putting me on hold to check with colleagues): They have been asked this many times before, and they don't know.
What really gets me about this sort of stuff is that they have the gall to threaten directors and company secretaries with criminal sanctions for getting this sort of detail wrong, but can't answer the most trivial questions themselves.
LOL well Osborne is too busy dabbling in other people's departments to bother with the bread and butter issues.
What a pity. When I was a youngster the English still had enormous pride in their country and it's history.
Now many English feel they should have been born anywhere but England. They lack pride and indeed, seem to hate their country. So much so, that they would like to make it a department of the EU, and bury themselves in it's amorphous mass.
Well England is already in an amorphous mass called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
What a pity. When I was a youngster the English still had enormous pride in their country and it's history.
Now many English feel they should have been born anywhere but England. They lack pride and indeed, seem to hate their country. So much so, that they would like to make it a department of the EU, and bury themselves in it's amorphous mass.
I agree. The only reason you could possibly have for wanting the UK to remain a part of the EU is hatred for England.
So, what do we do with the millions who are going to demonstrate their hatred for England next month? How can the UK thrive with them living here?
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Yes
Who is it?
Well I could give a long list of people whose opinions I respect, even though I don't always agree with. Do you really want me to list them all? Mind you, I am not sure that would be sensible, aside from taking up far too much space on here, I am bound to miss someone out of the list and cause me grief down the line.
So lets keep it in PB terms. I would not decry it if Mr. Alanbrooke were to come out in favour of remain. I might, privately, question his sanity/integrity but I would not decry his opinion. I would listen very carefully to all he said and make up my own mind. But that is what I do when the IMF woman, or the BoE bloke or any other person, on either side, chirps up.
Now people/organisations who had influenced or tried to influence me before and whose predictions had proved a complete crock of s**t, well, those I tend to ignore off the bat.
Remain can sneer all they like that their absurd and silly warnings aren't being taken seriously - after all why should they be given we were subjected to the same tripe back with the creation of the Euro - but at the end of the day the fear campaign is failing (badly) as the polls remain on 50/50.
Remain should really worry about the Debates because apart from the tired scare stories they really haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to logic and rational debate. Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and countless other countries on this planet survive on their own outside the European Union and people know this. That's the plain truth.
If Leavers don't care about what all these experts say, it's rather odd that they put so much effort into rubbishing them and inventing ever more ludicrous conspiracy theories to explain why they say what they say.
I've just been on the phone to HMRC's Stamp Duty helpline, with the simplest of all conceivable simple questions about Stamp Duty on shares. My question was: if you have a share sale where more than one class of shares is being sold simultaneously (same seller and same purchaser), and on one class of shares the value of the transaction is less than the £1000 cut-off below which Stamp Duty is not payable, does the whole thing count as one related transaction (so you pay stamp duty on the whole lot), or separate transactions where you pay stamp duty only on those classes of shares where the sales value is over £1000?
Answer (after putting me on hold to check with colleagues): They have been asked this many times before, and they don't know.
What really gets me about this sort of stuff is that they have the gall to threaten directors and company secretaries with criminal sanctions for getting this sort of detail wrong, but can't answer the most trivial questions themselves.
HMRC are a joke
They told me I wouldn't need to file a tax return for one particular tax year (after inquiring whether I needed to), and to ignore any request by them to file one for the subsequent tax year.
But they went to the trouble of actually mailing the request to file for the subsequent tax year anyway!
If they knew I didn't have to file for the subsequent tax year, why did they bother sending the request to do so?
A striking feature of the Brexit debate is the lack of a core belief in the EU from the Remain campaign. Most advocates of Remain have their own misgivings about the EU, and, knowing that such concerns are widespread in the UK, their arguments for remaining are becoming steadily more extreme and fanciful. One example of this is the claim that Northern Ireland will particularly suffer from Brexit.
The Government’s barrel-scraping approach to making the Remain case was in evidence in Tuesday’s Daily Telegraph article when William Hague made strong claims about the dangers to Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and the Falklands. I like William: we came into Parliament by by-election in the same year, 1989. But as a daughter of Ulster I profoundly disagree with his arguments on Northern Ireland.
....William Hague goes on to claim that "hundreds of millions of euros of European funds are currently diverted into the border region through a special peace programme". The actual figure is much lower at £30 million per annum.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Well it depends if they are scaremongering/bullshitting or not, wouldn't it?
That's sort of my point. Who wouldn't be described as a scaremonger/bullshitter if they advocated Remain?
Once example here, Stark:
IMF: The UK’s exit from the European Union could cause “severe regional and global damage”.
But the IMF has been decried. (See thread header.)
Because their claim is scaremongering. Note the use of the word "could". The UK's exit COULD cause the SKY to FALL in.
Joe Biden has moved into 36/ 48 for some reason in the POTUS market.
Has Obama agreed to commit Sepuku?
I don't know but I bought at 110 and sold at 99 - I think some people have reasonable Biden greens so could be a good opportunity to cash out should they wish !
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
I'm not sure what the agenda is here (if there is one). I'll be honest - I don't really care what the IMF, President Obama, David Cameron, Antifrank, Scott P or anyone else says. Indeed, I don't even much care if there is a temporary economic reversal from us leaving the European Union.
I understand there are those who do and those who are terrified they might lose out on £4,300 by 2030 if we don't vote to REMAIN and those who fear we will collapse into darkness if we don't stay with the EU.
The analogy of the jailer telling the prisoner how lucky he is to be behind bars comes readily to mind.
In the board game Colditz there was a (presumably bona fide?) poster the Germans put up to dissuade the POWs from escaping with the message 'stay in the Kamp where you will be safe!
What a pity. When I was a youngster the English still had enormous pride in their country and it's history.
Now many English feel they should have been born anywhere but England. They lack pride and indeed, seem to hate their country. So much so, that they would like to make it a department of the EU, and bury themselves in it's amorphous mass.
Well England is already in an amorphous mass called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Of course we knew that, but we almost all considered ourselves English not British, except when the British Empire was mentioned on Empire Day. Then all English hearts swelled with pride.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
What a pity. When I was a youngster the English still had enormous pride in their country and it's history.
Now many English feel they should have been born anywhere but England. They lack pride and indeed, seem to hate their country. So much so, that they would like to make it a department of the EU, and bury themselves in it's amorphous mass.
Well England is already in an amorphous mass called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
If Leavers don't care about what all these experts say, it's rather odd that they put so much effort into rubbishing them and inventing every more ludicrous conspiracy theories to explain why they say what they say.
We spend the time to rubbish what is plainly rubbish because you're campaigning not on a belief in the European Union (which we have in this country and a thousand years of independence) but on trying to scare people away from the other option. The problem you face is that the more you use it, and the more absurd the claims, the less credibility you will have - as seen in the Scottish referendum campaign. I am a strong Unionist on Powell levels, but the campaign the Unionists waged in Scotland was absolutely pathetic and based on mistruths and outright lies.
And even if you do win on this basis, there will be another referendum because you are still not all being honest on where the EU is headed: political union. If you do manage to win on this cocktail of lies and scare stories in 2016, there will be another referendum because you have failed to openly declare where it is heading. Before the next treaty (2025).
Actually the claim that Northern Ireland will suffer particularly badly from Brexit is uncontentious, surely.
ROFL, a lot of experience of the Province Richard ? Given the economy is 75% dependent on government spending I suspect it will be the least affected. Osborne will just stick up your taxes in Sussex to keep my relatives in the standard of living they have grown accustomed to.
Actually the claim that Northern Ireland will suffer particularly badly from Brexit is uncontentious, surely.
Yep, if we are going to be controlling immigration from the EU post-Brexit, full checks at the UK/Irish border will have to come into force. That should go down well.
Mr. T, the polls are neck-and-neck. Obviously Remain would've hoped to have a consistent double digit lead, but they still have every chance of winning.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
At the end of the day, all the EU is (economically) is a treaty the UK has with 27 of its neighbouring European states that gives us favourable access rights for a proportion of the 45% of our exports (mainly services) that we currently export there, and around which a number of UK business models have been built up over the last 40 years, in exchange for accepting rules and regulations in a number of primary policy areas, none of which would immediately change if we left even if the terms of access might.
That's it. There's a limit to how 'bad' things can be. And no-one seriously suggests we won't have a free trade deal with them even if we do exit, and we will still buy, trade, sell, visit and work there just as we do with the vast majority of the world with whom we have no such favourable arrangement. In exchange those EU restrictions on the rest of the world immediately lift, if we choose to do so, and those who wish to (or must) continue to follow EU regs can and will do so.
Long-term it's totally immaterial; we are talking about short-term transition costs, during the 1-4 year Brexit period, and even these are being exaggerated at the moment because nobody is putting anything on the table regarding how they'd practically approach it in the event of a Brexit.
If Leavers don't care about what all these experts say, it's rather odd that they put so much effort into rubbishing them and inventing every more ludicrous conspiracy theories to explain why they say what they say.
We spend the time to rubbish what is plainly rubbish because you're campaigning not on a belief in the European Union (which we have in this country and a thousand years of independence) but on trying to scare people away from the other option. The problem you face is that the more you use it, and the more absurd the claims, the less credibility you will have - as seen in the Scottish referendum campaign. I am a strong Unionist on Powell levels, but the campaign the Unionists waged in Scotland was absolutely pathetic and based on mistruths and outright lies.
And even if you do win on this basis, there will be another referendum because you are still not all being honest on where the EU is headed: political union. If you do manage to win on this cocktail of lies and scare stories in 2016, there will be another referendum because you have failed to openly declare where it is heading. Before the next treaty (2025).
I've no idea why you think I'm campaigning. I'm not. Your response is typically bonkers: anyone who is not persuaded that the risks of Leaving outweigh the benefits is 'not honest' or 'trying to scare people'.
Comments
'Usually people vote by self interest which should ward off a leave vote. If people think they'll be poorer outsider the EU, they'll vote in.
That said nationalism does funny things with people's heads. Nationalism is such a nihilistic force, it can lead to people acting against any kind of logic, self interest, or anything else that promotes their well being.
Although political ideology has thankfully had it's day in the sun for now, nationalism and religion are still around unfortunately and unleashing their horrible consequences on the world.'
who used to tease Leavers for weeks
he'd use insults and trolling
and plain made up polling
conveyed through the arse twixt his cheeks.
What? Someone just advised me that the polls are level? Who'd ave thunk it?
So what is the point of this article? How about an article on
"WHY HAS PROJECT FEAR FAILED TO GET A LEAD"
https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/731028331467055104
It seems to be quite an effective tactic.
In reality none of these are terribly big risks. They don't justify the hyperbole of Remainers.
That seems a very small figure to be fair !
You have, however, given me the idea.
P.S. Can't imagine that a big chunk of the Rumanian (seem to be making a mark as 'Big Issue' sellers) and Bulgarian intake are doing much for the GDP per capita ..
Do another...do another......
who used to put goats down his breeks
and there once inserted
a smile most perverted
would stay on his face for two weeks
Who vacuumed his pad with a Dyson
He tripped on the stairs
And damaged the hairs
On his proudly stuffed Bison
Michael Gove is probably the most sensible voice on the leave team, and the only one I could listen to vaguely- and he really is odd to be honest. Apart from the narcissists and opportunists, the leave team are populated by a veritable rag tag of fruitcakes, closet racists and loonies to paraphrase the great DC.
IMF: The UK’s exit from the European Union could cause “severe regional and global damage”.
'I'm re-posting my post from the last thread because it is pertinent here.
'Usually people vote by self interest which should ward off a leave vote. If people think they'll be poorer outsider the EU, they'll vote in.'
Lord Rose told us if we vote Leave wages will go up & George Osborne has told us house prices will come down.
If you are right about self interest then voters can look forward to a wage increase and thousands of people will finally be able to get on the property ladder.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36285503
Joe Biden has moved into 36/ 48 for some reason in the POTUS market.
who thought all the kippers were freaks
his posts fast and hectic
made them apoplectic
till the tears ran down his fat cheeks*
*Ive never met Alistair but Nick Palmer assures me he's a heavyweight
There was a young bloke called Tyson
Who vacuumed his pad with a Dyson
He tripped on the stairs
And sucked off the hairs
Of his proudly stuffed Bison
the problem as I see it is there is no "right" answer. People have differing priorities and what's right for one is probably wrong for someone else. It's vote for what you think is right for you personally and when as a nation we've done that 40 nillion times we might have a balanced answer.
I've just been on the phone to HMRC's Stamp Duty helpline, with the simplest of all conceivable simple questions about Stamp Duty on shares. My question was: if you have a share sale where more than one class of shares is being sold simultaneously (same seller and same purchaser), and on one class of shares the value of the transaction is less than the £1000 cut-off below which Stamp Duty is not payable, does the whole thing count as one related transaction (so you pay stamp duty on the whole lot), or separate transactions where you pay stamp duty only on those classes of shares where the sales value is over £1000?
Answer (after putting me on hold to check with colleagues): They have been asked this many times before, and they don't know.
What really gets me about this sort of stuff is that they have the gall to threaten directors and company secretaries with criminal sanctions for getting this sort of detail wrong, but can't answer the most trivial questions themselves.
What a pity. When I was a youngster the English still had enormous pride in their country and it's history.
Now many English feel they should have been born anywhere but England. They lack pride and indeed, seem to hate their country. So much so, that they would like to make it a department of the EU, and bury themselves in it's amorphous mass.
(1) it's legitimate to point out where organisations have got forecasts wrong before
(2) point out their funding and interests and how this might compromise their objectivity
(3) that it's a decision for the British people, not international organisations
I think 'conspiracy' should be left unsaid, but people left to draw their own conclusions from their record and their interests.
Who went everywhere by bike
When he stopped off to vote
He forgot about his coat
And ended up wet as a pike
“If you Brexit you must be prepared
For your world to subside”
But the Leavers replied
“You’re an ass with the brain of a bird”
'So Leave spokespeople have been treating the nonsense being spouted by Remain and other establishment interests with the contempt it deserves. Good.'
At least Andrew Neil & Michael Portillo were having a laugh last night at Dave's world war 3 warning.
I'm not sure what the agenda is here (if there is one). I'll be honest - I don't really care what the IMF, President Obama, David Cameron, Antifrank, Scott P or anyone else says. Indeed, I don't even much care if there is a temporary economic reversal from us leaving the European Union.
I understand there are those who do and those who are terrified they might lose out on £4,300 by 2030 if we don't vote to REMAIN and those who fear we will collapse into darkness if we don't stay with the EU.
The analogy of the jailer telling the prisoner how lucky he is to be behind bars comes readily to mind.
So, what do we do with the millions who are going to demonstrate their hatred for England next month? How can the UK thrive with them living here?
So lets keep it in PB terms. I would not decry it if Mr. Alanbrooke were to come out in favour of remain. I might, privately, question his sanity/integrity but I would not decry his opinion. I would listen very carefully to all he said and make up my own mind. But that is what I do when the IMF woman, or the BoE bloke or any other person, on either side, chirps up.
Now people/organisations who had influenced or tried to influence me before and whose predictions had proved a complete crock of s**t, well, those I tend to ignore off the bat.
Remain should really worry about the Debates because apart from the tired scare stories they really haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to logic and rational debate. Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and countless other countries on this planet survive on their own outside the European Union and people know this. That's the plain truth.
'Economists were put on the Earth to make astrologers look good'
Moaning like whores like some Leavers are won't do it.
They told me I wouldn't need to file a tax return for one particular tax year (after inquiring whether I needed to), and to ignore any request by them to file one for the subsequent tax year.
But they went to the trouble of actually mailing the request to file for the subsequent tax year anyway!
If they knew I didn't have to file for the subsequent tax year, why did they bother sending the request to do so?
Part of our gross contribution as well.
I've not heard it called that before!
Her Majesty
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/northern-ireland-father-jon-platt-wins-court-challenge-over-termtime-disney-world-holiday-fine-34712209.html
really where would you be without us ? And that's before all the opportunities we give you to redevelop your city centres.
And even if you do win on this basis, there will be another referendum because you are still not all being honest on where the EU is headed: political union. If you do manage to win on this cocktail of lies and scare stories in 2016, there will be another referendum because you have failed to openly declare where it is heading. Before the next treaty (2025).
And the week before.
And the week before...
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
That's it. There's a limit to how 'bad' things can be. And no-one seriously suggests we won't have a free trade deal with them even if we do exit, and we will still buy, trade, sell, visit and work there just as we do with the vast majority of the world with whom we have no such favourable arrangement. In exchange those EU restrictions on the rest of the world immediately lift, if we choose to do so, and those who wish to (or must) continue to follow EU regs can and will do so.
Long-term it's totally immaterial; we are talking about short-term transition costs, during the 1-4 year Brexit period, and even these are being exaggerated at the moment because nobody is putting anything on the table regarding how they'd practically approach it in the event of a Brexit.
Deliberately.