I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction
I agree the Government campaign for Remain, because it is policy. This is a once in a lifetime event for LEAVE, and they have no strategy, other than you are wrong and we are right. Personally I and most people I talk to will be glad when is is finished. Any ideas on turnout figures you would hope for at least 60%.
The atmosphere, certainly on here, has become rather acrid and it is difficult to try to make a point if you are for remain. I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view. The amount of media coverage together with televised debates will increase the vote in my opinion to that of a GE say 65% + David Cameron needs to be thanked for reducing the campaign to a few months, just imagine if it had been like the Scots referendum
The chance to change the EU was when Cameron negotiated recently. This was against a background that we would leave if changes were not made.
If other EU countries were not prepared to negotiate substantive changes in these circumstaces (which they weren't) then they are never going to change in a way the UK wants.
Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide
I would love to know what sort of meaningful reforms you think are achievable.
Democracy
Since there is absolutely no plan and no pressure to change the way the EU is currently run to make it more democratic (given that the EU do not accept it needs reform) then I am afraid that, as I said, this is pure fantasy.
I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction
I agree the Government campaign for Remain, because it is policy. This is a once in a lifetime event for LEAVE, and they have no strategy, other than you are wrong and we are right. Personally I and most people I talk to will be glad when is is finished. Any ideas on turnout figures you would hope for at least 60%.
I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view.
I used to be of that view. The difference is I no longer have any confidence it can be changed in any meaningful way. The drivers of the EU project do not think it needs changing, not genuinely - that's why the talk is how the UK just moans, and of the contagion of referendums spreading, rather than true recognition of concerns needing to be addressed, instead only seeing them as things to handle without changing direction.
I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction
I agree the Government campaign for Remain, because it is policy. This is a once in a lifetime event for LEAVE, and they have no strategy, other than you are wrong and we are right. Personally I and most people I talk to will be glad when is is finished. Any ideas on turnout figures you would hope for at least 60%.
The atmosphere, certainly on here, has become rather acrid and it is difficult to try to make a point if you are for remain. I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view. The amount of media coverage together with televised debates will increase the vote in my opinion to that of a GE say 65% + David Cameron needs to be thanked for reducing the campaign to a few months, just imagine if it had been like the Scots referendum
And as we have made clear time and time again, the idea of changing the EU from within to suit the UK is simply a pipe dream. We have had 40 years or more of politicians telling it it can be done and they have achieved nothing.
Be absolutely clear. If you vote for Remain you are voting for the continuation of the EU project and ever closer union.
No I am not - but if leave accept any part of my argument the whole purpose of leave is irrelevant
This is huge arrogance. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union. Nothing you seem to want is in the interests of the EU and in that they are absolutely right. Why on earth should they sacrifice their own well being just to accommodate the UK?
Ever closer union is a act of life if we remain in. People like you who deny that really don't live in the real world.
There was an MP called Nick P Who supported Brown to a Tee Then the Torys got in and he was binned That old MP called Nick P
There is a poster called Sean T He's a bit up-and-downee He's not just anyone A novelist you know hun' Just don't ask him to talk any sense when the sun is down
I've not looked it up, but I believe limericks of this (well much better) sort were arrived at by Lear.
What I didn't realise until very recently was that Lear was talented in other ways too. A decent painter for example.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.
Most people will never see or hear even a soundbite of a speech, it is irrelevant if it is good or not and certainly not indicative of whether those opposing it actually realise it was good - not least because party robots declare something awesome no matter what, as we've seen with every poor leader ever - it only matters how it is reported, and the summation of the speech was very over the top, and not just from those who are committed for Leave.
I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction
I agree at least 60%.
The atum
The
Wel wide
I would love to know what sort of meaningful reforms you think are achievable.
Democracy
That would be nice. A shame that it is of such low priority it has not already been meaningfully achieved.
Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide
The failure of the Eurozone is the real issue facing the EU. The kind of solutions required to fix it would marginalise the UK further. Therefore I truly doubt the sort of reform we will see over the coming decades would be of any benefit to the UK as a member of the EU.
You make a fair point and it is appreciated when common sense is the argument and not the abuse dished out by some. I do think it is too early to draw up the bridge but I am not saying that if the EU did not take into account non Eurozonne Countries then the case for leaving would be much stronger. I have been disappointed at the tone of some on here and that one of my recent answers to staying in the EU would be 'democracy'. I do admit it was a wind up to see the reaction. We all need humour in our lives
In an ideal world, I'd want to reform the EU. But reforming the EU is like trying to persuade a lion to become a vegetarian. It's not in the nature of the beast. The direction of travel has only ever been one way, and that's towards integration, contrary to our interests and desires.
Edited extra bit: Mr. NorthWales (2), "We all need humour in our lives".
I entirely agreed. People should definitely buy more comedy books
. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union.
No they don't. Why on earth do you think that?
Perhaps you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.
You cannot have the sort of political union the Eurozone needs whilst leaving key EU members outside. The EU will continue to unify in spite of what the UK wants. And yes this is accepted by all but the most committed Remainders.
'So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"
You must have missed Lord Rose telling us that a vote to Leave would result in higher wages.
So all of the papers and the broadcast media spontaneously and simultaneously invented something with no input from Cameron?
Seems like it. Personally I go by what politicians actually say, not by what excitable journalists think in advance they might say.
It's a principle I recommend. It would avoid people making fools of themselves, as they did (as one example out of zillions) over the inventions about John Whittingdale's plans for the Beeb. Remember that nonsense about the scheduling of Strictly Come Dancing?
Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide
The failure of the Eurozone is the real issue facing the EU. The kind of solutions required to fix it would marginalise the UK further. Therefore I truly doubt the sort of reform we will see over the coming decades would be of any benefit to the UK as a member of the EU.
You make a fair point and it is appreciated when common sense is the argument and not the abuse dished out by some. I do think it is too early to draw up the bridge but I am not saying that if the EU did not take into account non Eurozonne Countries then the case for leaving would be much stronger. I have been disappointed at the tone of some on here and that one of my recent answers to staying in the EU would be 'democracy'. I do admit it was a wind up to see the reaction. We all need humour in our lives
I would echo the comments on tone. Referendums appear to bring out the worst in people, and for all passion and even anger are not unreasonable for such momentous happenings, but people get so continually tetchy and suspicious, the atmosphere poisonous.
The atmosphere, certainly on here, has become rather acrid and it is difficult to try to make a point if you are for remain. I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view. The amount of media coverage together with televised debates will increase the vote in my opinion to that of a GE say 65% + David Cameron needs to be thanked for reducing the campaign to a few months, just imagine if it had been like the Scots referendum
And as we have made clear time and time again, the idea of changing the EU from within to suit the UK is simply a pipe dream. We have had 40 years or more of politicians telling it it can be done and they have achieved nothing.
Be absolutely clear. If you vote for Remain you are voting for the continuation of the EU project and ever closer union.
No I am not - but if leave accept any part of my argument the whole purpose of leave is irrelevant
This is huge arrogance. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union. Nothing you seem to want is in the interests of the EU and in that they are absolutely right. Why on earth should they sacrifice their own well being just to accommodate the UK?
Ever closer union is a act of life if we remain in. People like you who deny that really don't live in the real world.
Richard - you have an agenda which I respect but I have a different view but it is unacceptable to say I do not live in the real world
So all of the papers and the broadcast media spontaneously and simultaneously invented something with no input from Cameron?
Seems like it. Personally I go by what politicians actually say, not by what excitable journalists think in advance they might say.
It's a principle I recommend. It would avoid people making fools of themselves, as they did (as one example out of zillions) over the inventions about John Whittingdale's plans for the Beeb. Remember that nonsense about the scheduling of Strictly Come Dancing?
Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.
Mr. kle4, that's probably accurate. I think a lot of that (both now and in Scotland two years ago) is because both sides consider the other as wilfully wanting to harm their country by making it subservient to an external power/diminishing its prosperity.
There's also the over the top nonsense in the current campaign (perhaps also Scotland, I paid less attention to that) which does not engender serious debate, and does antagonise people.
I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.
And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;
No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.
More likely it was briefed to the media clumsily and they saw a chance for a story by twisting what they had been told, or just got over-excited.
After all, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? To take a counter-example on the other side, Boris' recent words were twisted into headlines saying he was a Putin apologist. That was equally silly.
So all of the papers and the broadcast media spontaneously and simultaneously invented something with no input from Cameron?
Seems like it. Personally I go by what politicians actually say, not by what excitable journalists think in advance they might say.
It's a principle I recommend. It would avoid people making fools of themselves, as they did (as one example out of zillions) over the inventions about John Whittingdale's plans for the Beeb. Remember that nonsense about the scheduling of Strictly Come Dancing?
Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.
So they briefed WW3 and Genocide waited for a couple of journalists on the Press Review to decide if it would be OK and then changed the speech to Security risks. That is a lot clearer now.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
Is there anything (ever) of any sort that could ever convince you for Leave, David?
Genuinely interested.
As things stand, there's nothing that anyone could *say* that would make me vote leave: I prefer to make my own mind up. But events in the future might cause me to switch, potentially.
I don't accept that the EU is a big anti-British club. Although it does sometimes puts forward policies that would hurt Britain, we shouldn't view conspiracy behind either idiocy or misguidedness. Nor do I accept some kind of anti-British structural bias - the divisions within the Eurozone are at least as big as between the Ins and the Outs. But if something like a clear anti-British bias in structure and mindset developed then certainly the least worst option would be to leave.
You cannot have the sort of political union the Eurozone needs whilst leaving key EU members outside.
Why not?
Because the degree of union needed by the Eurozone would mean effectively having two completely separate sets of institutions if the non Eurozone members were not to be sucked in. It is not a practical proposal. I wish it were because it would result in de facto Brexit anyway. But you have to be realistic about this. Both practicality and aspiration are driving the EU to political union and if we remain in we will have to sacrifice more of our independence. Once we have voted not to leave they are simply not going accept any more of our obstructionism (and nor should they)
I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.
And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;
No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
I know it belongs to the previous thread, but I think that Leave want Farage not to appear much on TV during the campaign for the same reason Remain want Farage on TV.
He energizes Labour voters for Remain.
If you want to push Labour voters for Leave, have Osborne and Cameron on TV, they hate them. If you want to push them towards Remain, have Farage on TV.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.
Has there ever been a Cameron speech you didn't think was 'very good'
Its irrelevant of how good the speech was and what it actually said because nobody listens to such speeches. Its how its reported in the media which matters.
Now why did the media give the impression that the speech was all 'war and genocide' and why were people so willing to believe that and to laugh at it.
Perhaps because Cameron has been trashing his reputation for months with increasingly bizarre utterances.
Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.
More likely it was briefed to the media clumsily and they saw a chance for a story by twisting what they had been told, or just got over-excited.
After all, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? To take a counter-example on the other side, Boris' recent words were twisted into headlines saying he was a Putin apologist. That was equally silly.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
They have been laughing at something he didn't say. His speech was actually very good, which is why the Leavers ignore it.
Has there ever been a Cameron speech you didn't think was 'very good'
Its irrelevant of how good the speech was and what it actually said because nobody listens to such speeches. Its how its reported in the media which matters.
Now why did the media give the impression that the speech was all 'war and genocide' and why were people so willing to believe that and to laugh at it.
Perhaps because Cameron has been trashing his reputation for months with increasingly bizarre utterances.
Cameron is now reaping what he has sowed.
I remember the last time Cameron gave a good speech, it was when he announced his engagement to Nick Clegg this time six years ago.
Because the degree of union needed by the Eurozone would mean effectively having two completely separate sets of institutions if the non Eurozone members were not to be sucked in. It is not a practical proposal. I wish it were because it would result in de facto Brexit anyway. But you have to be realistic about this. Both practicality and aspiration are driving the EU to political union and if we remain in we will have to sacrifice more of our independence. Once we have voted not to leave they are simply not going accept any more of our obstructionism (and nor should they)
That's where we disagree. I think it will evolve precisely into a situation where ever-closer union is concentrated in the Eurozone. It will just be so much easier for them rather than having to drag us kicking and screaming along with them. Moreover, they have accepted the principle in the renegotiation document. That's why the argument about the exact legalistic interpretation is misplaced: it's an acknowledgement of the reality that we are somewhat detached.
I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.
And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;
No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Why so rude it is meant to be a debate/betting forum.
Sorry but no one at all takes seriously the idea that this wasn't briefed to the media and then watered down when the reaction was so bad.
More likely it was briefed to the media clumsily and they saw a chance for a story by twisting what they had been told, or just got over-excited.
After all, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? To take a counter-example on the other side, Boris' recent words were twisted into headlines saying he was a Putin apologist. That was equally silly.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Plato has a lot of experience in these areas and she is clear that the headline came from a common briefing.
"Quote" rel="john_zims">You must have missed Lord Rose telling us that a vote to Leave would result in higher wages.'
Higher wages for the non-Polish plumber.
Lower income for everyone else in the country'
Nope, Lord Rose was adamant that wages would increase with a Leave vote,that's maybe why we don't see him feature in the Remain campaign anymore.
On the other hand Osborne has confirmed that a Leave vote would result in lower house prices enabling thousands of people to finally get on the property ladder.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
Is there anything (ever) of any sort that could ever convince you for Leave, David?
Genuinely interested.
As things stand, there's nothing that anyone could *say* that would make me vote leave: I prefer to make my own mind up. But events in the future might cause me to switch, potentially.
I don't accept that the EU is a big anti-British club. Although it does sometimes puts forward policies that would hurt Britain, we shouldn't view conspiracy behind either idiocy or misguidedness. Nor do I accept some kind of anti-British structural bias - the divisions within the Eurozone are at least as big as between the Ins and the Outs. But if something like a clear anti-British bias in structure and mindset developed then certainly the least worst option would be to leave.
I do not believe the EU is a big anti-British club.
I do believe that the interests of the EU and those of the UK are to some extent mutually exclusive.
I do not believe the UK has any right to cause further harm to the EU by preventing them taking necessary action to sort out their economic woes - which inevitably is going to require further political union.
Any harm done to the UK by this will not be by spite or intent. It will simply be that the EU can no longer afford to be pushed off track by a single member who does not share their vision.
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
Yes you did lie.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
Sanders hasn't really moved in at all. The prices I remember were Sanders @ 28 / Clinton 1.41ish.
Sanders will head out to 70+ when he loses Kentucky and Oregon... his price is defying gravity right now.
This is a Trump/HRC movement !
Shouldn't he be in with a shout in Oregon? I don't think there's been any polling yet. Kentucky ought to be Hillary's although there's been no polling there this year either.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
Because the degree of union needed by the Eurozone would mean effectively having two completely separate sets of institutions if the non Eurozone members were not to be sucked in. It is not a practical proposal. I wish it were because it would result in de facto Brexit anyway. But you have to be realistic about this. Both practicality and aspiration are driving the EU to political union and if we remain in we will have to sacrifice more of our independence. Once we have voted not to leave they are simply not going accept any more of our obstructionism (and nor should they)
That's where we disagree. I think it will evolve precisely into a situation where ever-closer union is concentrated in the Eurozone. It will just be so much easier for them rather than having to drag us kicking and screaming along with them. Moreover, they have accepted the principle in the renegotiation document. That's why the argument about the exact legalistic interpretation is misplaced: it's an acknowledgement of the reality that we are somewhat detached.
But to do so would require separate political structures mirroring the wider EU structures. That is simply impractical.
The renegotiation document is worthless. It was a smokescreen to allow Cameron to claim some small victory. It has no meaning beyond that.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
Yes you did lie.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
You are just so out of order - I intend to ignore all your future posts until you moderate your insults
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
Copy each others unpublished on the way to the presses stories? How do they do that Richard?
Mr. Nabavi, let us assume you're correct (I am an unpersuaded, but still). Do you see no issue with an ever more tightly integrated eurozone which also has a critical mass for QMV to impose its will on the EU nations outside the single currency?
PB REMAINers may be seeing why there are so few Labour and Green posters on PB comments given the treatment meted out to dissenters from the consensus...
I know it belongs to the previous thread, but I think that Leave want Farage not to appear much on TV during the campaign for the same reason Remain want Farage on TV.
He energizes Labour voters for Remain.
If you want to push Labour voters for Leave, have Osborne and Cameron on TV, they hate them. If you want to push them towards Remain, have Farage on TV.
Simple.
I do not like Farage but I think Leave are just making themselves look stupid by trying to prevent one of the most prominent Brexit politicians from taking part in the debates.
I have no idea whether he will be good or bad for Leave (I hope good but fear bad) but Leave need to grow a pair and accept he is going to be part of the campaign in some way.
. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union.
(Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union) No they don't. Why on earth do you think that? Perhaps you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.
Mr Nabavi - how familiar are you with the 5 Presidents report?
"This report has put forward the principal steps necessary to complete EMU at the latest by 2025. The first initiatives should be launched by the EU institutions as of 1 July 2015. To prepare the transition between Stages 1 and 2, the Commission – in consultation with the Presidents of the other EU institutions – will present a "White Paper" in Spring 2017, assessing progress made in Stage 1 and outlining next steps needed. It will discuss the legal, economic and political preconditions of the more far-reaching measures necessary to complete EMU in Stage 2, and will draw on analytical input from an expert consultation group. Translating the Five Presidents’ report into laws and institutions should begin without delay."
The words in the above are "EU" and "political" and "to complete EMU" aka integration. Therefore it is the EU institutions (EZ and non EZ) that will be changed and working on the activities to facilitate EMU.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
Copy each others unpublished on the way to the presses stories? How do they do that Richard?
Err, they do talk to each other you know. And read each other's websites.
Sanders hasn't really moved in at all. The prices I remember were Sanders @ 28 / Clinton 1.41ish.
Sanders will head out to 70+ when he loses Kentucky and Oregon... his price is defying gravity right now.
This is a Trump/HRC movement !
Shouldn't he be in with a shout in Oregon? I don't think there's been any polling yet. Kentucky ought to be Hillary's although there's been no polling there this year either.
Oregon should go to Sanders thanks to Eugene (the city), the capital of left wing environmentalism.
Hillary is spending money in ads in Kentucky, it's the first time since March 15th that she has felt the need to do so.
Talking about Hillary, her campaign is co-ordinating with former Jeb! and NeverTrump people, trying to design a campaign to appeal to disaffected establishment republicans.
So her campaign is going to be terrible, and it already shows:
Mr. Nabavi, let us assume you're correct (I am an unpersuaded, but still). Do you see no issue with an ever more tightly integrated eurozone which also has a critical mass for QMV to impose its will on the EU nations outside the single currency?
Yes I do. That's why the protections in the renegotiation and in the Treaties are so important. If we Leave, we lose those protections.
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Why so rude it is meant to be a debate/betting forum.
Which is why when people tell lies they should be pointed out.
If we don't then the 'other side' respond with their own lies and before we know it truth and accuracy are smothered.
What does the 5 Presidents Report intend for the IMF? Is Osborne aware of this plan?
"Today, the EU and the euro area, are still not represented as one in the international financial institutions, notably the IMF. A fragmented voice means the EU is punching below its political and economic weight. The Five Presidents also propose strengthening the role of the Eurogroup. In the short run, this may require a reinforcement of its presidency and the means at its disposal. In the longer run (Stage 2), a full-time presidency of the Eurogroup could be considered."
It is not just about the Euro area but changes that would embrace representation of the EU with the IMF.
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
Yes you did lie.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
It is not a lie it is like most comments on here an opinion, an opinion that I agree with. What I find offensive is for someone to advise another poster to go away.
PB REMAINers may be seeing why there are so few Labour and Green posters on PB comments given the treatment meted out to dissenters from the consensus...
Good post - this great site is becoming very intimidating but I will continue to discuss with either side in genuine debate but some posters who have become insulting will be ignored. It is a shame as many leavers do make good points, indeed persuasive points, but it is drowned out by antagonism others
It seems a long time ago and I've forgotten the detail (if Cameron were proud of his deal he might mention the wonderful things he'd negotiated once in a while), but the impression I recall is being wildly underwhelmed.
I listened to John Longworth on 5 live and everyone is in an international conspiracy with all of them in the pay of the EU and big banks that caused the crash. He was also annoyed that the Government is campaigning to remain. It came over to discredit everyone and only leave are right. He and leave need to understand it is Government policy to remain so of course they will campaign for it. The reporter became frustrated and it was frankly embarrassing to listen to. I know I will be accused as a remainer of being biased but most any reasonable person listening would not have been impressed. Apart from David Cameron it is reported that Nicola Sturgeon is to take on Farage as well in a televised debate. Are vote leave going to apply for another injuction
I agree the Government campaign for Remain, because it is policy. This is a once in a lifetime event for LEAVE, and they have no strategy, other than you are wrong and we are right. Personally I and most people I talk to will be glad when is is finished. Any ideas on turnout figures you would hope for at least 60%.
The atmosphere, certainly on here, has become rather acrid and it is difficult to try to make a point if you are for remain. I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view. The amount of media coverage together with televised debates will increase the vote in my opinion to that of a GE say 65% + David Cameron needs to be thanked for reducing the campaign to a few months, just imagine if it had been like the Scots referendum
The chance to change the EU was when Cameron negotiated recently. This was against a background that we would leave if changes were not made.
If other EU countries were not prepared to negotiate substantive changes in these circumstaces (which they weren't) then they are never going to change in a way the UK wants.
Well I see this differently. After this referendum everything is open to change as more countries demand change and even their own referendums. If you think Europe wont change you under estimate the thirst for democracy Europe wide
The EU will continue to change but become more harmonised, more centralist, more protectionist and continue to spend 40% of its income subsidising an industry (farming) which represents only 3% of Europe's GDP instead of supporting new growth industries.
And all the while regulating itself into sclerosis without addressing the democratic deficit at the core of the project.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
Indeed it would benefit our media if they actually reported a speech after it was made rather than before! We constantly get reports on the news like "in a speech later today...". Very often it bears little resemblence to how it was pitched. The problem is the media wanting to be the news rather than just report it.
Mr. Nabavi, let us assume you're correct (I am an unpersuaded, but still). Do you see no issue with an ever more tightly integrated eurozone which also has a critical mass for QMV to impose its will on the EU nations outside the single currency?
Yes I do. That's why the protections in the renegotiation and in the Treaties are so important. If we Leave, we lose those protections.
There are no protections in the negotiation. And the treaties are interpreted by the ECJ in a way that will always favour closer union.
Mr. NorthWales, I hope you do stick around. It's worth recalling things became prickly two years ago around the Scottish vote, and there have been ebbs and flows of civility (it was perhaps at its best around 2007-8. Those lamenting the 'conservative' majority now might recall it was not always so).
Don't think there will be another PPE leader of the conservative party. Perhaps the end result of the referendum will be a complete clear out of the great and good who put their own interests ahead of the people of this country.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
Yes you did lie.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
It is not a lie it is like most comments on here an opinion, an opinion that I agree with. What I find offensive is for someone to advise another poster to go away.
Thank you for your support. I am appealing to both sides to cut out the abuse and engage in debate, this site is much better than the trolling and abuse some are using which is wholly unnecessary
Dreadful scare stories from Mme Lagarde today. ....but that's good for the leave campaign. The more and more desperate the lies become the better as far as I'm concerned. As with the treasury economic model how many global recessions has the IMF forecast? You guessed it, a big fat zero!
Mr Nabavi - how familiar are you with the 5 Presidents report?
"This report has put forward the principal steps necessary to complete EMU at the latest by 2025. The first initiatives should be launched by the EU institutions as of 1 July 2015. To prepare the transition between Stages 1 and 2, the Commission – in consultation with the Presidents of the other EU institutions – will present a "White Paper" in Spring 2017, assessing progress made in Stage 1 and outlining next steps needed. It will discuss the legal, economic and political preconditions of the more far-reaching measures necessary to complete EMU in Stage 2, and will draw on analytical input from an expert consultation group. Translating the Five Presidents’ report into laws and institutions should begin without delay."
The words in the above are "EU" and "political" and "to complete EMU" aka integration. Therefore it is the EU institutions (EZ and non EZ) that will be changed and working on the activities to facilitate EMU.
Philip Arestis of the University of Cambridge has published a report called 'Can the Report of 'Five Presidents' Save the Euro?' It makes for a really interesting read. I yet to read any reasonable suggestions on how the EU can be reformed without marginalising the UK.
What could save the euro is an interesting and topical question. History teaches us that monetary unions require economic integration to survive. In its absence, as the case is now with the EMU, then political integration is paramount (see, for example, Arestis et al., 2003; see also Arestis and Sawyer, 2006a, 2006b, 2006c). The requirements for effective political union are: EMU-level of expenditure programmes and taxation; and a common social security system, which would enhance labour mobility and would involve elements of redistribution. Fiscal policy would likewise aid economic integration and would involve significant fiscal transfers between countries and regions. It is clear then that political integration is very important for it provides fiscal union that enables coordination of taxation and spending throughout the EMU. Such union would allow the EMU to spread risk across the EMU area and eliminate uneven booms and busts in different regions. Under such arrangements the ECB single interest rate would never be inappropriate for any one country; clearly this is not the case under current arrangements.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
Indeed it would benefit our media if they actually reported a speech after it was made rather than before! We constantly get reports on the news like "in a speech later today...". Very often it bears little resemblence to how it was pitched. The problem is the media wanting to be the news rather than just report it.
I agree with you but the real guilty parties in this are the politicians who choose to brief ahead of speeches or announcements because they want to maximise exposure. Most of the time it works well for them and for the media but once in a while it backfires as it did with Cameron's Götterdämmerung speech.
Sanders hasn't really moved in at all. The prices I remember were Sanders @ 28 / Clinton 1.41ish.
Sanders will head out to 70+ when he loses Kentucky and Oregon... his price is defying gravity right now.
This is a Trump/HRC movement !
Shouldn't he be in with a shout in Oregon? I don't think there's been any polling yet. Kentucky ought to be Hillary's although there's been no polling there this year either.
Oregon should go to Sanders thanks to Eugene (the city), the capital of left wing environmentalism.
Hillary is spending money in ads in Kentucky, it's the first time since March 15th that she has felt the need to do so.
Talking about Hillary, her campaign is co-ordinating with former Jeb! and NeverTrump people, trying to design a campaign to appeal to disaffected establishment republicans.
So her campaign is going to be terrible, and it already shows:
There was a Prime Minister called Cameron Who promised we’d have Götterdämmerung If the EU we left We would all be bereft And would not have a pot to squat down upon.
PB REMAINers may be seeing why there are so few Labour and Green posters on PB comments given the treatment meted out to dissenters from the consensus...
Good post - this great site is becoming very intimidating but I will continue to discuss with either side in genuine debate but some posters who have become insulting will be ignored. It is a shame as many leavers do make good points, indeed persuasive points, but it is drowned out by antagonism others
I am sorry I must have completely missed your complaints about the multiple examples of abuse spouted by TSE, Nabavi and Meeks etc at LEAVErs.
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Why so rude it is meant to be a debate/betting forum.
Which is why when people tell lies they should be pointed out.
If we don't then the 'other side' respond with their own lies and before we know it truth and accuracy are smothered.
Why use such emotive language, carry on like this and you will end up talking to yourself, and a brilliant and informative web site will be lost.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
Mr. Nabavi, it's not odd that one side argues against another in a referendum campaign. The alternative is accepting what the other side says or, at least, letting it go unchallenged.
It's hard to know which is the more ludicrous at the moment: the scare stories coming out of Remain, or the conspiracy theories coming out of Leave.
Would that either side engaged with the merits of the case, never mind both.
Is there anything (ever) of any sort that could ever convince you for Leave, David?
Genuinely interested.
As things stand, there's nothing that anyone could *say* that would make me vote leave: I prefer to make my own mind up. But events in the future might cause me to switch, potentially.
I don't accept that the EU is a big anti-British club. Although it does sometimes puts forward policies that would hurt Britain, we shouldn't view conspiracy behind either idiocy or misguidedness. Nor do I accept some kind of anti-British structural bias - the divisions within the Eurozone are at least as big as between the Ins and the Outs. But if something like a clear anti-British bias in structure and mindset developed then certainly the least worst option would be to leave.
Thank you for this, David.
I appreciate it.
Personally, I think its less a structural bias against the UK per say, and more its the EU's structure that doesn't suit the UK, or its interests, and will grow ever more so.
However, I agree that whatever happens we will need to positively engage with the European polity, and collaborate and cooperate. On defence, regional security, and maritime surveillance and local environmental issues.
I'd just prefer to do so once we are independent, and without being legislated for on our behalf.
Thought experiment. Can any Leaver on here name an individual or institution - a respectable one whose opinion carries weight - whom they wouldn't decry if they advocated Remain?
Greetings from the Troodos mountains. Went round the Kykkos monastery today which was beautiful. Well worth a visit if you get the chance.
The Troodos mountains are something of a holy site for geologists as they contain the ophiolite complexes - sections of the lower crust and mantle that were pushed up during the collision between the African and European plates. Very rare and a great insight into the interior of our earth.
Mr Nabavi - how familiar are you with the 5 Presidents report?
"This report has put forward the principal steps necessary to complete EMU at the latest by 2025. The first initiatives should be launched by the EU institutions as of 1 July 2015. To prepare the transition between Stages 1 and 2, the Commission – in consultation with the Presidents of the other EU institutions – will present a "White Paper" in Spring 2017, assessing progress made in Stage 1 and outlining next steps needed. It will discuss the legal, economic and political preconditions of the more far-reaching measures necessary to complete EMU in Stage 2, and will draw on analytical input from an expert consultation group. Translating the Five Presidents’ report into laws and institutions should begin without delay."
The words in the above are "EU" and "political" and "to complete EMU" aka integration. Therefore it is the EU institutions (EZ and non EZ) that will be changed and working on the activities to facilitate EMU.
Philip Arestis of the University of Cambridge has published a report called 'Can the Report of 'Five Presidents' Save the Euro?' It makes for a really interesting read. I yet to read any reasonable suggestions on how the EU can be reformed without marginalising the UK.
What could save the euro is an interesting and topical question. History teaches us that monetary unions require economic integration to survive. In its absence, as the case is now with the EMU, then political integration is paramount (see, for example, Arestis et al., 2003; see also Arestis and Sawyer, 2006a, 2006b, 2006c). The requirements for effective political union are: EMU-level of expenditure programmes and taxation; and a common social security system, which would enhance labour mobility and would involve elements of redistribution. Fiscal policy would likewise ation and would involve significant fiscal transfers between countries and regions. It is clear then that political integration is very important for it provides fiscal union that enables coordination of taxation and spending throughout the EMU. Such union would allow the EMU to spread risk across the EMU area and eliminate uneven booms and busts in different regions. Under such arrangements the ECB single interest rate would never be inappropriate for any one country; clearly this is not the case under current arrangements.
The EU couldn't bring about a consolidated eurozone debt in 1999 and a common fiscal area when confidence in government was much higher than is the case today. They have zero chance of achieving it now in the current climate where confidence in governments worldwide is on the brink of collapse.
So you are saying that all the media saw exactly the same chance to twist it in exactly the same way in spite of the fact you claim it was never actually planned to be said? That is pretty remarkable.
Well, I go by the facts of what he said. That is what we know.
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
Indeed it would benefit our media if they actually reported a speech after it was made rather than before! We constantly get reports on the news like "in a speech later today...". Very often it bears little resemblence to how it was pitched. The problem is the media wanting to be the news rather than just report it.
The ones which amuse me are when someone apologises for something he was reported to be about to say but never got round to so doing.
I wouldn't necessarily blame the media, I rather suspect spin doctors try to control the media response by pre-empting the speech.
I am surprised that the Remain campaign have not spelt out to the Over 65 dynamic that a vote to Leave will likely mean a cut to their pension. Indeed this could in theory be replicated for anyone who derives income from the state as a contracting economy in shock from an EU exit would likely mean public spending cuts. The Over 65’s have been insulated from much of the austerity of recent years but a Brexit would induce more painful cuts.
Brexit would have no impact at all on pensions.
There will be a Remain attack on Pensions.
I am close to guaranteeing this.
*** On Topic ***
OK, let's start preparing LEAVE's response, as my poetry skills rival that of the Vogons.
1. Public pensions based on final salary will be protected.....by that nice Mr. Cameron. Rest easy NPXMP.
2. State pensions will be protected by Mr. Cameron. He can hardly deny it, can he?
3. Pensions provided by insurance companies. Speak to Equitable Life pensioners about how much protection they got in the EU.
4. Company pensioners. Ask those in the pension protection fund how they are doing thanks to pro-remain Labour's policies. There are 22,000 BHS members newly admitted. I'm sure a few will oblige.
Sorry but having heard the interview your account is not biased, it is pure fantasy.
You would say that but it is becoming an unsustainable position that everyone is wrong and only leave is right. Leave will need a better narrative by the time of the debates to have any form of creditability
I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.
And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;
No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
A few very committed Leavers have been laughing at Cameron. Most people have no idea he even made a speech.
Sorry but having heard the interview your account is not biased, it is pure fantasy.
You would say that but it is becoming an unsustainable position that everyone is wrong and only leave is right. Leave will need a better narrative by the time of the debates to have any form of creditability
I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.
And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;
No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
A few very committed Leavers have been laughing at Cameron. Most people have no idea he even made a speech.
I didn't realise that the Telegraph cartoonist Matt was a committed Leaver.
Greetings from the Troodos mountains. Went round the Kykkos monastery today which was beautiful. Well worth a visit if you get the chance.
The Troodos mountains are something of a holy site for geologists as they contain the ophiolite complexes - sections of the lower crust and mantle that were pushed up during the collision between the African and European plates. Very rare and a great insight into the interior of our earth.
Absolutely. A very special place. And wonderfully refreshing breezes today away from the heat on the plains below.
Mr. NorthWales, I hope you do stick around. It's worth recalling things became prickly two years ago around the Scottish vote, and there have been ebbs and flows of civility (it was perhaps at its best around 2007-8. Those lamenting the 'conservative' majority now might recall it was not always so).
I will not surrender to trolling and abuse by stopping posting as I believe this is the best site for political discussion and I also believe that we should respect the owners of this forum as without it many would have no means of entering political dialogue. I remember the Scots vote as I joined just before due to my interest in all things Scots having lived there and been married to a Scot for 52 years. I see many similarities to today's 'prickly' discourse
Sorry but having heard the interview your account is not biased, it is pure fantasy.
You would say that but it is becoming an unsustainable position that everyone is wrong and only leave is right. Leave will need a better narrative by the time of the debates to have any form of creditability
I never said everyone was wrong. I said that your account of what Longworth said is fantasy.
And the credibility gap remains with Remain. In case you noticed people are laughing at you not with you.;
No Richard - you are all talking to each other and convincing each other. I do respect your views but like several posters on here have said this forum is becoming very unpleasant and some are giving up until after the 23rd June. I do not want to do that but I will defend my points of view and hopeful argue with respect. Abuse (not you) as some are using indicates a lost argument
You really think people weren't laughing at Cameron when he made his claims of war and genocide if we left? The thing is that all this doom mongering simply isn't working because for some reason the Remain side have decided to go so far over the top that no one takes them seriously. People are laughing at Remain because they have jumped the shark and now everything they say is being viewed through that prism.
But Richard it is leave who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other
But Big_G it is Remain who are being laughed at - and you are all talking to each other.
My advice is never to make a statement which can be reversed and used back at you.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
A few very committed Leavers have been laughing at Cameron. Most people have no idea he even made a speech.
I didn't realise that the Telegraph cartoonist Matt was a committed Leaver.
Nor the Guardian journalists.
I have no idea. My point was this is all going over most people's heads.
Comments
and the voters were rubbing the Rune
to see the results
no if's and no buts
how Leave and Remain are in tune
Ever closer union is a act of life if we remain in. People like you who deny that really don't live in the real world.
Who supported Brown to a Tee
Then the Torys got in
and he was binned
That old MP called Nick P
There is a poster called Sean T
He's a bit up-and-downee
He's not just anyone
A novelist you know hun'
Just don't ask him to talk any sense when the sun is down
I've not looked it up, but I believe limericks of this (well much better) sort were arrived at by Lear.
What I didn't realise until very recently was that Lear was talented in other ways too. A decent painter for example.
Perhaps you are confusing the Eurozone with the EU.
In an ideal world, I'd want to reform the EU. But reforming the EU is like trying to persuade a lion to become a vegetarian. It's not in the nature of the beast. The direction of travel has only ever been one way, and that's towards integration, contrary to our interests and desires.
Edited extra bit: Mr. NorthWales (2), "We all need humour in our lives".
I entirely agreed. People should definitely buy more comedy books
'So the question is "How much of your income are you willing to sacrifice to make the decision to prevent you or your neighbours from being able to hire a competent Polish plumber, and get a local YOP scheme trainee instead?"
You must have missed Lord Rose telling us that a vote to Leave would result in higher wages.
It's a principle I recommend. It would avoid people making fools of themselves, as they did (as one example out of zillions) over the inventions about John Whittingdale's plans for the Beeb. Remember that nonsense about the scheduling of Strictly Come Dancing?
The atmosphere, certainly on here, has become rather acrid and it is difficult to try to make a point if you are for remain. I am every bit as angry with the EU as leave and want it changing but I believe that is done better by being a member. Leave though have no tolerance for that view. The amount of media coverage together with televised debates will increase the vote in my opinion to that of a GE say 65% + David Cameron needs to be thanked for reducing the campaign to a few months, just imagine if it had been like the Scots referendum
And as we have made clear time and time again, the idea of changing the EU from within to suit the UK is simply a pipe dream. We have had 40 years or more of politicians telling it it can be done and they have achieved nothing.
Be absolutely clear. If you vote for Remain you are voting for the continuation of the EU project and ever closer union.
No I am not - but if leave accept any part of my argument the whole purpose of leave is irrelevant
This is huge arrogance. Everyone accepts that the EU needs more political union to match its economic union. Nothing you seem to want is in the interests of the EU and in that they are absolutely right. Why on earth should they sacrifice their own well being just to accommodate the UK?
Ever closer union is a act of life if we remain in. People like you who deny that really don't live in the real world.
Richard - you have an agenda which I respect but I have a different view but it is unacceptable to say I do not live in the real world
There's also the over the top nonsense in the current campaign (perhaps also Scotland, I paid less attention to that) which does not engender serious debate, and does antagonise people.
Lower income for everyone else in the country
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
After all, it wouldn't be the first time, would it? To take a counter-example on the other side, Boris' recent words were twisted into headlines saying he was a Putin apologist. That was equally silly.
'Seems like it. Personally I go by what politicians actually say, not by what excitable journalists think in advance they might say.'
So in your world there is no such thing as off the record press briefings,leaks to test voter reaction,no advance press information on speeches etc.
The Daily Telegraph, not exactly renowned for 'excitable' journalism just made it up.
I don't accept that the EU is a big anti-British club. Although it does sometimes puts forward policies that would hurt Britain, we shouldn't view conspiracy behind either idiocy or misguidedness. Nor do I accept some kind of anti-British structural bias - the divisions within the Eurozone are at least as big as between the Ins and the Outs. But if something like a clear anti-British bias in structure and mindset developed then certainly the least worst option would be to leave.
He energizes Labour voters for Remain.
If you want to push Labour voters for Leave, have Osborne and Cameron on TV, they hate them.
If you want to push them towards Remain, have Farage on TV.
Simple.
Who knew.
Its irrelevant of how good the speech was and what it actually said because nobody listens to such speeches. Its how its reported in the media which matters.
Now why did the media give the impression that the speech was all 'war and genocide' and why were people so willing to believe that and to laugh at it.
Perhaps because Cameron has been trashing his reputation for months with increasingly bizarre utterances.
Cameron is now reaping what he has sowed.
"Quote" rel="john_zims">You must have missed Lord Rose telling us that a vote to Leave would result in higher wages.'
Higher wages for the non-Polish plumber.
Lower income for everyone else in the country'
Nope, Lord Rose was adamant that wages would increase with a Leave vote,that's maybe why we don't see him feature in the Remain campaign anymore.
On the other hand Osborne has confirmed that a Leave vote would result in lower house prices enabling thousands of people to finally get on the property ladder.
The list of goodies gets better by the week.
I do believe that the interests of the EU and those of the UK are to some extent mutually exclusive.
I do not believe the UK has any right to cause further harm to the EU by preventing them taking necessary action to sort out their economic woes - which inevitably is going to require further political union.
Any harm done to the UK by this will not be by spite or intent. It will simply be that the EU can no longer afford to be pushed off track by a single member who does not share their vision.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
But everyone would be worse off.
Wages are not the only thing that would change
Generally the media copy each other, so I don't think the fact that several of them came out with something which turned out to wrong is very surprising.
The renegotiation document is worthless. It was a smokescreen to allow Cameron to claim some small victory. It has no meaning beyond that.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
Yes you did lie.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
You are just so out of order - I intend to ignore all your future posts until you moderate your insults
I have no idea whether he will be good or bad for Leave (I hope good but fear bad) but Leave need to grow a pair and accept he is going to be part of the campaign in some way.
"This report has put forward the principal steps necessary to complete EMU at the latest by 2025. The first initiatives should be launched by the EU institutions as of 1 July 2015. To prepare the transition between Stages 1 and 2, the Commission – in consultation with the Presidents of the other EU institutions – will present a "White Paper" in Spring 2017, assessing progress made in Stage 1 and outlining next steps needed. It will discuss the legal, economic and political preconditions of the more far-reaching measures necessary to complete EMU in Stage 2, and will draw on analytical input from an expert consultation group. Translating the Five Presidents’ report into laws and institutions should begin without delay."
The words in the above are "EU" and "political" and "to complete EMU" aka integration. Therefore it is the EU institutions (EZ and non EZ) that will be changed and working on the activities to facilitate EMU.
Hillary is spending money in ads in Kentucky, it's the first time since March 15th that she has felt the need to do so.
Talking about Hillary, her campaign is co-ordinating with former Jeb! and NeverTrump people, trying to design a campaign to appeal to disaffected establishment republicans.
So her campaign is going to be terrible, and it already shows:
https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/731151573485768704
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/731107990514880512
If we don't then the 'other side' respond with their own lies and before we know it truth and accuracy are smothered.
"Today, the EU and the euro area, are still not represented as one in the international financial institutions, notably the IMF. A fragmented voice means the EU is punching below its political and economic weight. The Five Presidents also propose strengthening the role of the Eurogroup. In the short run, this may require a reinforcement of its presidency and the means at its disposal. In the longer run (Stage 2), a full-time presidency of the Eurogroup could be considered."
It is not just about the Euro area but changes that would embrace representation of the EU with the IMF.
As for Labour and Green supporters, their numbers declined sharply following the General Election.
It seems a long time ago and I've forgotten the detail (if Cameron were proud of his deal he might mention the wonderful things he'd negotiated once in a while), but the impression I recall is being wildly underwhelmed.
I will make statements that I am content with and will stand by them.
So are you really trying to say people haven't been laughing at Cameron ?
No more than leave trashing every International opinion and threatening a broadcaster with an injunction
You're wrong and you know it and that's why you're blustering.
Are you really trying to claim people even know about a possible debate, let alone talking about it, let alone talking about who is saying what about it on the Leave side, let alone laughing about it ?
Stop telling silly lies.
As to 'international opinion' are you really trying to say that people are laughing at Leave's response to Obama when the polls moved to Leave in response ?
Stop telling silly lies.
Instead stop parroting from the CCHQ instruction sheet and do something different for a few days. I think you'll feel much better afterwards.
Yours is the kind of post I am calling out and appeal to more on this forum on both sides to inject respect. I do not lie and if my opinion causes you a problem I will only accept your argument if it is respectful.
Yes you did lie.
You said that people were no more laughing at Cameron's 'war speech' than they are at Leave's response to a possible debate.
That is a lie.
Your problem is that you've become so attached to the Remain side you can no longer see the difference between truth, shades of propaganda and silly lies.
Take a little time away and you'll see how infantile all the arguing is and be embarrassed at the part you played in them.
It is not a lie it is like most comments on here an opinion, an opinion that I agree with. What I find offensive is for someone to advise another poster to go away.
Thank you for your support. I am appealing to both sides to cut out the abuse and engage in debate, this site is much better than the trolling and abuse some are using which is wholly unnecessary
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/polls/dhm-research-oregon-public-broadcasting-fox-12-24481
Hillary 48
Sanders 33
I wonder how many conversations I'll hear this weekend in which people laugh at Leave's response to a possible debate.
5 ? 10 ? 20 maybe ?
I suspect it will be zero.
I thought we were done with appeals to authority? Or is that only authority you don't like?
I appreciate it.
Personally, I think its less a structural bias against the UK per say, and more its the EU's structure that doesn't suit the UK, or its interests, and will grow ever more so.
However, I agree that whatever happens we will need to positively engage with the European polity, and collaborate and cooperate. On defence, regional security, and maritime surveillance and local environmental issues.
I'd just prefer to do so once we are independent, and without being legislated for on our behalf.
The EU couldn't bring about a consolidated eurozone debt in 1999 and a common fiscal area when confidence in government was much higher than is the case today. They have zero chance of achieving it now in the current climate where confidence in governments worldwide is on the brink of collapse.
I wouldn't necessarily blame the media, I rather suspect spin doctors try to control the media response by pre-empting the speech.
OK, let's start preparing LEAVE's response, as my poetry skills rival that of the Vogons.
1. Public pensions based on final salary will be protected.....by that nice Mr. Cameron. Rest easy NPXMP.
2. State pensions will be protected by Mr. Cameron. He can hardly deny it, can he?
3. Pensions provided by insurance companies. Speak to Equitable Life pensioners about how much protection they got in the EU.
4. Company pensioners. Ask those in the pension protection fund how they are doing thanks to pro-remain Labour's policies. There are 22,000 BHS members newly admitted. I'm sure a few will oblige.
5. Ex-EU commissioners' pensions? Screw 'em.
Nor the Guardian journalists.
The battle's been fought to a draw
It's ground on for years
Left the country in tears
Just like the Second Punic War