There are 655,000 Motability customers, with as many as a million people potentially entitled to join the scheme.
Motability is not so much an exercise in welfare as an industry, benefiting not just the severely disabled but car manufacturers and dealers. It is the largest fleet operator in the country, accounting for eight per cent of new sales, and its muscle in the marketplace allows it to demand good terms.
But the fact is that Motability has been dogged consistently by allegations of abuse. This scheme, costing the Exchequer £2 billion a year, threatens to bring the entire benefits system into disrepute, being virtually impossible to police.
One-third of Motability customers nominate someone else to drive their car, and there is virtually no way of knowing if these tens of thousands of able-bodied drivers are adhering to a rule stating that all journeys must be for the benefit of the disabled owner.
Of course - though it would be equally bad for the media to determine who can and can't appear on the screens, particularly during a referendum / election campaign. The electronic media is supposed to be impartial and unbiased. Whether or not you think that's a good thing is beside the point (FWIW, I think the time for that requirement - that of the one-/two-provider era - has passed and there's no reason that radio and TV shouldn't be able to have editorial opinions, the same as the print media).
Diverting the tetchy exchanges onto this interesting point: this is done in Germany, where the TV channel can have a (mildly) one-sided contribution from a pundit after the substantive newws, with OPINION appearing throughout in large letters on the screen.
Personally I don't think it adds much. People interested in politics react purely according to whether they agree with him - what a sound comment, liberal nonsense, etc. - or they think it's a waste of time. People not interested probably aren't still watching anyway, but if they are they get a piece from the soggy middle ground. The idea of having someone express an AfD or Linke view without a balancing piece is unthinkable.
There are zillions of ways people can get opinion. The unique service of the main TV channels is that they deliver the news with an attempt at balanced factuality. If we muddy that by finding out that, say, Andrew Neil thinks Government policy on housing is garbage. I think we all lose. In fact IMO the TV pundits go too far already in sneaking in their own biases.
I agree with that. One solution, however, would be simply to let the pundits be open about their bias. At least that way we know where they're coming from.
I don't have a problem with UK TV and radio programmes, channels and networks having their own editorial stances, including non-mainstream ones. It's easy enough to get Russia Today, after all, and that's hardly the BBC.
FWIW, while I think that channels should be able to be biased, I think they're still be a substantial market for news which was aimed at being unbiased and that the leading players in that field would still gain a premium of prestige for that fact. That said, there are many biases besides just that of opinion: region, subject, celebrity, sport etc.; while the BBC and Sky cover politics well and extensively, this is, of itself, a relatively narrow interest.
The threat of war with Portugal has changed me over to Remain.
I'm off to a lovely villa in the Algarve in August and I don't want to take the family out there heavily armed.
This shit is real.
"There were two secret signals in the military coup: first the airing (at 10:55 pm) by 'Emissores Associados de Lisboa' of the song "E Depois do Adeus" by Paulo de Carvalho, Portugal's entry in the 6 April 1974 Eurovision Song Contest, which alerted the rebel captains and soldiers to begin the coup."
What's Portugal's entry called this year?
That's it. I'm off to Devon!
Be careful. I hear they are grumpy about possibly losing an MP in the boundary changes...
@twlldun: The Brexiteers getting politics the wrong way around again - you are meant to collapse into acrimonious wrangling *after* you lose.
There is an officially designated "Leave" campaign': Vote Leave.
ITV are choosing someone from a rival Leave campaign: Grassroots Out (i.e. not someone from officially designated Vote Leave group).
This is allegedly because Cameron (Remain) refuses to debate against another Tory (even though the senior Vote Leave figures are Tories). In other words, "Remain" are getting to decide who should represent "Leave".
Official Leave group therefore unhappy.
Not that difficult to understand, is it?
Why don't Vote Leave out up a non Tory as their designated individual to go against Cameron. Carswell or Hoey for instance?
It's for not me to choose. Then again, it shouldn't be for "remainiac" Cameron to choose, either.
Do you think Leave should refuse to debate unless they get... I dunno, Corbyn? Or maybe Clegg?
Leave is not one group. Leave is several different groups. If one Leave group demands Calamity Clegg, then the broadcaster shrugs their shoulders, and invites someone from a different Leave campaign.
@twlldun: The Brexiteers getting politics the wrong way around again - you are meant to collapse into acrimonious wrangling *after* you lose.
There is an officially designated "Leave" campaign': Vote Leave.
ITV are choosing someone from a rival Leave campaign: Grassroots Out (i.e. not someone from officially designated Vote Leave group).
This is allegedly because Cameron (Remain) refuses to debate against another Tory (even though the senior Vote Leave figures are Tories). In other words, "Remain" are getting to decide who should represent "Leave".
Official Leave group therefore unhappy.
Not that difficult to understand, is it?
Why don't Vote Leave out up a non Tory as their designated individual to go against Cameron. Carswell or Hoey for instance?
It's for not me to choose. Then again, it shouldn't be for "remainiac" Cameron to choose, either.
Do you think Leave should refuse to debate unless they get... I dunno, Corbyn? Or maybe Clegg?
I think it is entirely reasonable for Cameron as leader of the Conservatives to say he won't debate one of his own party. That isn't the same as him choosing who he faces since Vote Leave consists of more than just his party.
@georgeeaton: Vote Leave statement confirms they believe Farage is Remain's secret weapon.
Cameron isn't trusted by the public on the EU for good reason, he'll be dreading the debate as much as Farage will be relishing it.
Camer it here.
If Leave wiheir intelligence.
Yes. That's when the iron entered my soul.
As someone on the wrong side of Cameron, you and your ilk seemed naive. Cameron is exclusively a political animal, possibly conceived in a CCHQ lab, designed to win elections.
I knew Cameron was a devious liar. I didn't expect him to lie to me so blatantly and so badly. Like he thought I had an IQ of 7. I also thought he was at least semi-sincere in his negotiation, and would bring back something serious. Just one or two big things. Otherwise he risked losing.
In the end he brought back nothing. At all. And so he risks losing.
I think Cameron's problem is similar to that of Matthew Parris or Emma Thompson or Vince Cable or the FT or some of our resident pb regulars: they are far too dismissive and contemptuous of those who object to the European Union.
That comes across in the way they talk to people - and they don't even bother to try and make the case, they just talk down to people.
Unsurprisingly, people pick up on that. And they don't like it.
I see this on my Facebook (yes, yes, I know..) feed from friends of mine who are pro-Remain. They post stuff that'd make Matthew Parris look like a social therapist. When they find out I am a Leaver they are at first totally surprised and shocked, then very sheepish and then quite guarded about the fact around me.
The difficulty is that, as @MaxPB mentioned yesterday, we have all got our reasoned, nuanced arguments out of the way. We did them often and thoroughly weeks ago (feels like years).
So unless we are to all now go home and reconvene on June 24th that leaves more colourful interactions.
I don't think I've ever talked down to any Leave poster on here. Apart from @Richard_Tyndall, talking to whom, I said, was like discussing Proust with a strawberry mivi. But then I calls it like I sees it.
Probably of all the posters on here you're the one I'm the most surprised and frustrated about the fact you're voting Remain.
It doesn't compute in my head, and always had you down as one of us, not lining up with 90% of all Guardian readers ;-)
Brexiteers should be grateful that Cameron is willing to debate with any of their number. They might quite enjoy pointing out that things have come to a pretty pass when the prime minister of the UK refuses to defend in debate the continuation of the UK, but will stand up for retaining EU membership.
Do you think Junker should be invited to the debate?
If he was continually popping over to London & appearing on UK media to lecture the great UK unwashed from a great height about 'risks', probably. Since he's not, no.
Not a great look when UKIP are issuing more measured statements than VoteLeave:
It is deeply disappointing that rather than rallying behind Nigel Farage for what will be the biggest one-on-one debate of the referendum campaign, Vote Leave are instead threatening court action to stop Nigel from taking on the Prime Minister", the spokesperson said.
The statement added: "This referendum is bigger than the Conservative Party and bigger than party politics.
"It is about the very future of our country and this ITV debate will reflect that.
"All on the Leave side must put their egos to one side and support Nigel as he prepares to take on the Prime Minister in what will undoubtedly be the defining moment of the referendum campaign".
foxinsox talks warmly of EU colleagues, I'll be particularly sad on 24th June as I stand on the railway station waving disconsolately at a train marked FOR DEPORTATION
That images conjures up some unfortunate parallels. I'd engage your brain before typing in future.
Alex Hales remains as captain Alastair Cook's opening partner, while pace bowler Steven Finn is fit again. Nick Compton has kept his spot as England's likely number three.
If that is not Vote Leave's message they are in deeper trouble than it looks
That is the end goal that is not the message. Corbyn gave a message of how he wanted to Remain in a socialist EU, that is not Remains message though.
Hence why the Electoral Commission went to all the trouble of choosing an official campaign. Are you being deliberately obtuse or genuinely too thick to see the difference?
Miss Vance, it cannot be considered fair if the Remain campaign picks the debaters for both Leave and Remain.
Reminds me of when the broadcasters were throwing their weight around, or trying to, with General Election debates.
There's also a risk for Remain. If Farage wins, Farage wins. If Cameron wins, Boris et al. will claim it's only because the PM was frit to face one of them.
@twlldun: The Brexiteers getting politics the wrong way around again - you are meant to collapse into acrimonious wrangling *after* you lose.
There is an officially designated "Leave" campaign': Vote Leave.
ITV are choosing someone from a rival Leave campaign: Grassroots Out (i.e. not someone from officially designated Vote Leave group).
This is allegedly because Cameron (Remain) refuses to debate against another Tory (even though the senior Vote Leave figures are Tories). In other words, "Remain" are getting to decide who should represent "Leave".
Official Leave group therefore unhappy.
Not that difficult to understand, is it?
Why don't Vote Leave out up a non Tory as their designated individual to go against Cameron. Carswell or Hoey for instance?
It's for not me to choose. Then again, it shouldn't be for "remainiac" Cameron to choose, either.
Do you think Leave should refuse to debate unless they get... I dunno, Corbyn? Or maybe Clegg?
I think it is entirely reasonable for Cameron as leader of the Conservatives to say he won't debate one of his own party. That isn't the same as him choosing who he faces since Vote Leave consists of more than just his party.
I don't understand why ITV are putting someone not in the official Leave campaign to front for the official Leave campaign.
I suspect it's because: (a) you won't get two senior Conservatives 'debating' each other, because it looks bad to have them slinging mud at each other; and (b) Farage will be good for ratings. I suspect more the latter.
If your business was selling TV advertising, would you rather have Farage up there or Kate Hoey?
The most visible and recognisable campaigner for Brexit is going to be on TV
Leave campaign response?
Better call the lawyers...
This is not the action of a campaign confident in its message.
Farage is not Vote Leaves message. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?
Exactly.
Farage wants to leave the EU, whereas Vote Leave...um...mmm...er..
Putting up Farage to represent Vote Leave is like putting up Corbyn to represent the Tories.
Talk me through it please.
Farage is not part of Vote Leave and disagrees with Vote Leave as much as Vote Leave disagrees with him. Hence why he campaigned against them. Are you being obtuse or genuinely too thick to see the difference?
@twlldun: The Brexiteers getting politics the wrong way around again - you are meant to collapse into acrimonious wrangling *after* you lose.
There is an officially designated "Leave" campaign': Vote Leave.
ITV are choosing someone from a rival Leave campaign: Grassroots Out (i.e. not someone from officially designated Vote Leave group).
This is allegedly because Cameron (Remain) refuses to debate against another Tory (even though the senior Vote Leave figures are Tories). In other words, "Remain" are getting to decide who should represent "Leave".
Official Leave group therefore unhappy.
Not that difficult to understand, is it?
Why don't Vote Leave out up a non Tory as their designated individual to go against Cameron. Carswell or Hoey for instance?
It's for not me to choose. Then again, it shouldn't be for "remainiac" Cameron to choose, either.
Do you think Leave should refuse to debate unless they get... I dunno, Corbyn? Or maybe Clegg?
I think it is entirely reasonable for Cameron as leader of the Conservatives to say he won't debate one of his own party. That isn't the same as him choosing who he faces since Vote Leave consists of more than just his party.
This thread explains why Mike's thesis is spot on: we do need some telephone polls as a 'check' or otherwise to those on-line which for months have showed a tie.
Say the next Comres or Ipsos Mori puts Remain ahead by 10% or more, then that would cast doubt on the claims that Cameron is panicking. Conversely, if they too produce convergence with Yougov, Opinium, TNS etc, then if I were Larry the No 10 cat, I'd give the PM a wider berth.
Fair point.
I think they'll show Remain ahead by 6-10% myself.
I don't understand why ITV are putting someone not in the official Leave campaign to front for the official Leave campaign.
I suspect it's because: (a) you won't get two senior Conservatives 'debating' each other, because it looks bad to have them slinging mud at each other; and (b) Farage will be good for ratings. I suspect more the latter.
If your business was selling TV advertising, would you rather have Farage up there or Kate Hoey?
Well I would wait for the official Leave camp to put someone forwards. It probably would have been Douglas Carswell who we know is a strong debater.
The threat of war with Portugal has changed me over to Remain.
I'm off to a lovely villa in the Algarve in August and I don't want to take the family out there heavily armed.
This shit is real.
"There were two secret signals in the military coup: first the airing (at 10:55 pm) by 'Emissores Associados de Lisboa' of the song "E Depois do Adeus" by Paulo de Carvalho, Portugal's entry in the 6 April 1974 Eurovision Song Contest, which alerted the rebel captains and soldiers to begin the coup."
What's Portugal's entry called this year?
That's it. I'm off to Devon!
Be careful. I hear they are grumpy about possibly losing an MP in the boundary changes...
It's worse than that. We might have to share one with... gulp... Cornwall....
Aww, the poor, ickle government needs a 'safe space'.
'Replacing Trident will cost at least £205bn, campaigners say
The government is expected soon to ask MPs to vote to replace the existing Trident fleet with four new nuclear submarines. The MoD has already spent nearly £4bn on the replacement programme. Last month, it declined to say how much it thought it would cost to replace Trident, and the ministry said the situation has not changed. “The government needs a safe space away from the public gaze to allow it to consider policy options for delivering the deterrent in the most cost-effective way, unfettered from public comment about the affordability of particular policy options,” it said in response to a freedom of information request from Reuters.'
@twlldun: The Brexiteers getting politics the wrong way around again - you are meant to collapse into acrimonious wrangling *after* you lose.
There is an officially designated "Leave" campaign': Vote Leave.
ITV are choosing someone from a rival Leave campaign: Grassroots Out (i.e. not someone from officially designated Vote Leave group).
This is allegedly because Cameron (Remain) refuses to debate against another Tory (even though the senior Vote Leave figures are Tories). In other words, "Remain" are getting to decide who should represent "Leave".
Official Leave group therefore unhappy.
Not that difficult to understand, is it?
Why don't Vote Leave out up a non Tory as their designated individual to go against Cameron. Carswell or Hoey for instance?
It's for not me to choose. Then again, it shouldn't be for "remainiac" Cameron to choose, either.
Do you think Leave should refuse to debate unless they get... I dunno, Corbyn? Or maybe Clegg?
Leave is not one group. Leave is several different groups. If one Leave group demands Calamity Clegg, then the broadcaster shrugs their shoulders, and invites someone from a different Leave campaign.
I have to say I don't understand the point of having an officially designated campaign if the broadcast media are not going to use one of their representatives for one of the main showcase debates. Which is not to say that Farage shouldn't get any coverage - just not this.
As I see it, had Grassroots Out won the official designation and then ITV invited, say, Boris Johnson, on to debate Cameron (assuming he was still Vote Leave), then GO would have every right to be unhappy with that (and, no doubt, would have made their displeasure quite as known as Vote Leave are doing).
This thread explains why Mike's thesis is spot on: we do need some telephone polls as a 'check' or otherwise to those on-line which for months have showed a tie.
Say the next Comres or Ipsos Mori puts Remain ahead by 10% or more, then that would cast doubt on the claims that Cameron is panicking. Conversely, if they too produce convergence with Yougov, Opinium, TNS etc, then if I were Larry the No 10 cat, I'd give the PM a wider berth.
Fair point.
I think they'll show Remain ahead by 6-10% myself.
But I am guessing.
If it was only 6%, that would still be squeaky bum time in Downing Street.
Miss Vance, it cannot be considered fair if the Remain campaign picks the debaters for both Leave and Remain.
Reminds me of when the broadcasters were throwing their weight around, or trying to, with General Election debates.
There's also a risk for Remain. If Farage wins, Farage wins. If Cameron wins, Boris et al. will claim it's only because the PM was frit to face one of them.
How has Remain chosen the Leave debater? There are many non Tories that Vote Leave could have nominated to fulfil the "not a Tory" criteria Cameron has.
Boris and Gove need to disassociate themselves pronto from the lunatic who sent out that email last night. After Redwood's attack on Cameron, there is a pattern emerging here. It looks like the Tory right are increasingly seeing this campaign as a direct means of getting rid of Cameron.
I'm afraid that's right. You can even see it on here. For some of the fruitier, more vocal 'Leavers' EU membership barely seems to enter their imaginations. It's all about Dave - his duplicity, his manipulativeness, his treachery, his cowardice, his deviousness, his shallowness, his ruthlessness, his repulsiveness. They appear to be hanging their every fibre on Dave's personal failure. It's curious.
Brexiteers should be grateful that Cameron is willing to debate with any of their number. They might quite enjoy pointing out that things have come to a pretty pass when the prime minister of the UK refuses to defend in debate the continuation of the UK, but will stand up for retaining EU membership.
Funny how St Nicola is unwilling to share a platform with other REMAINers......hypocritsRus....
You seem to have got all mixed up over platforms and debates.
I expect she doesn't want to share a platform while arguing simultaneously that leaving the Union that accounts for 70% of Scotland's trade is a good thing, whilst leaving the Union that accounts for 15% of Scotland's trade is a bad thing.
They might not be able to stifle their giggles......
The most visible and recognisable campaigner for Brexit is going to be on TV
Leave campaign response?
Better call the lawyers...
This is not the action of a campaign confident in its message.
Farage is not Vote Leaves message. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?
Exactly.
Farage wants to leave the EU, whereas Vote Leave...um...mmm...er..
Putting up Farage to represent Vote Leave is like putting up Corbyn to represent the Tories.
Talk me through it please.
Farage isn't in the Vote Leave campaign, he is in Leave.EU/Grassroots Out.
I was surprised at how poor the donation levels to Vote Leave have been compared to GO/Leave.EU
I've been giving anything I can and I am just a salaried man.
Surely there are some wealthy eurosceptics out there who can make up the final £4m for Vote Leave?
Running out of time..
I saw a report yesterday that several Leavers were adding a couple of million. Small donations add up. Like you, I've donated a slab and will do so again when I can.
This thread explains why Mike's thesis is spot on: we do need some telephone polls as a 'check' or otherwise to those on-line which for months have showed a tie.
Say the next Comres or Ipsos Mori puts Remain ahead by 10% or more, then that would cast doubt on the claims that Cameron is panicking. Conversely, if they too produce convergence with Yougov, Opinium, TNS etc, then if I were Larry the No 10 cat, I'd give the PM a wider berth.
Fair point.
I think they'll show Remain ahead by 6-10% myself.
But I am guessing.
If it's 6%, then Dave is in trouble; 10% and he can feel more comfirtable. 8%....OKish just but he has work to do.
Mr. Thompson, what's the point of an officially designated Leave campaign if it can't determine its own representative in a debate?
If Cameron didn't want the Conservatives to appear split he'd be better off considering his own conduct in recent months.
Miss Vance, UKIP, the third biggest party? They've got 1/650 MPs. Equal with the Greens, behind the Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, DUP, Sinn Fein etc.
It's morally indefensible to have one side dictate who can or cannot appear for the other. If Cameron chooses not to debate, fine. If he chooses to debate, fine. But it's unacceptable for him to collude with the broadcaster to dictate who his opponent is.
@twlldun: The Brexiteers getting politics the wrong way around again - you are meant to collapse into acrimonious wrangling *after* you lose.
There is an officially designated "Leave" campaign': Vote Leave.
ITV are choosing someone from a rival Leave campaign: Grassroots Out (i.e. not someone from officially designated Vote Leave group).
This is allegedly because Cameron (Remain) refuses to debate against another Tory (even though the senior Vote Leave figures are Tories). In other words, "Remain" are getting to decide who should represent "Leave".
Official Leave group therefore unhappy.
Not that difficult to understand, is it?
Why don't Vote Leave out up a non Tory as their designated individual to go against Cameron. Carswell or Hoey for instance?
It's for not me to choose. Then again, it shouldn't be for "remainiac" Cameron to choose, either.
Do you think Leave should refuse to debate unless they get... I dunno, Corbyn? Or maybe Clegg?
Leave is not one group. Leave is several different groups. If one Leave group demands Calamity Clegg, then the broadcaster shrugs their shoulders, and invites someone from a different Leave campaign.
I have to say I don't understand the point of having an officially designated campaign if the broadcast media are not going to use one of their representatives for one of the main showcase debates. Which is not to say that Farage shouldn't get any coverage - just not this.
As I see it, had Grassroots Out won the official designation and then ITV invited, say, Boris Johnson, on to debate Cameron (assuming he was still Vote Leave), then GO would have every right to be unhappy with that (and, no doubt, would have made their displeasure quite as known as Vote Leave are doing).
The most visible and recognisable campaigner for Brexit is going to be on TV
Leave campaign response?
Better call the lawyers...
This is not the action of a campaign confident in its message.
Farage is not Vote Leaves message. What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?
Exactly.
Farage wants to leave the EU, whereas Vote Leave...um...mmm...er..
Putting up Farage to represent Vote Leave is like putting up Corbyn to represent the Tories.
Talk me through it please.
Farage isn't in the Vote Leave campaign, he is in Leave.EU/Grassroots Out.
I was surprised at how poor the donation levels to Vote Leave have been compared to GO/Leave.EU
I've been giving anything I can and I am just a salaried man.
Surely there are some wealthy eurosceptics out there who can make up the final £4m for Vote Leave?
Running out of time..
Just given another donation, albeit a small one this time. Difficult for Vote Leave to compete with the big businesses backing Remain.
"The campaign to keep Britain in the EU is being bankrolled to the tune of £2 million by global banks who were fined billions for bringing the world's economy to its knees.
Between them, Goldman Sachs, J P Morgan, Morgan Stanley and Citibank had to pay $27.7 billion to the US Government for mis-selling mortgages and other scandals which inflicted misery on countless Britons.
The official Britain Stronger In Europe (BSE) group – backed by No 10 – has also taken major sums from wealthy businessmen who previously insisted the UK would be 'isolated' if it did not join the disastrous euro."
Mr. T, whilst Cameron's desire to pick and choose his opponents or he won't play should not be ignored, you're right that Leave should focus on the migration issue.
foxinsox talks warmly of EU colleagues, I'll be particularly sad on 24th June as I stand on the railway station waving disconsolately at a train marked FOR DEPORTATION
That images conjures up some unfortunate parallels. I'd engage your brain before typing in future.
Brexiteers should be grateful that Cameron is willing to debate with any of their number. They might quite enjoy pointing out that things have come to a pretty pass when the prime minister of the UK refuses to defend in debate the continuation of the UK, but will stand up for retaining EU membership.
Funny how St Nicola is unwilling to share a platform with other REMAINers......hypocritsRus....
You seem to have got all mixed up over platforms and debates.
I expect she doesn't want to share a platform while arguing simultaneously that leaving the Union that accounts for 70% of Scotland's trade is a good thing, whilst leaving the Union that accounts for 15% of Scotland's trade is a bad thing.
They might not be able to stifle their giggles......
Much, much simpler, she doesn't want to be splattered with smelly Tory toxin.
Half a million migrants every year. From the EU. Add in non EU migrants and Britain could be taking 750,000 annually. 7.5m in a decade. Insane.
The immigration message needs to be pushed relentlessly by "leave".
If you're getting bored of hearing the message, the voters might just start to be hearing it
For "remain" I think the economy is still their best card, though Dave's ridiculous sojourns into 'war' and other nonsense can only help "leave" I think.
I think the 'It's (really) all about Cameron' argument has some strength.....
Yup
The problem with Farage is he hates the EU more than Dave, whereas for the official campaign it's the other way round.
It also explains the bizarre claim that Farage (campaigner for Brexit) is not on message with the Leave campaign (campaigning for Brexit Dave's defenestration)
Brexiteers should be grateful that Cameron is willing to debate with any of their number. They might quite enjoy pointing out that things have come to a pretty pass when the prime minister of the UK refuses to defend in debate the continuation of the UK, but will stand up for retaining EU membership.
Funny how St Nicola is unwilling to share a platform with other REMAINers......hypocritsRus....
You seem to have got all mixed up over platforms and debates.
I expect she doesn't want to share a platform while arguing simultaneously that leaving the Union that accounts for 70% of Scotland's trade is a good thing, whilst leaving the Union that accounts for 15% of Scotland's trade is a bad thing.
They might not be able to stifle their giggles......
Much, much simpler, she doesn't want to be splattered with smelly Tory toxin.
While following their tax policy and favouring middle class Scots more than the Tories favour middle class English.....?
You're right, being outflanked on the left by the Tories would be embarrassing.....
Mr. Thompson, what's the point of an officially designated Leave campaign if it can't determine its own representative in a debate?
If Cameron didn't want the Conservatives to appear split he'd be better off considering his own conduct in recent months.
Miss Vance, UKIP, the third biggest party? They've got 1/650 MPs. Equal with the Greens, behind the Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, DUP, Sinn Fein etc.
It's morally indefensible to have one side dictate who can or cannot appear for the other. If Cameron chooses not to debate, fine. If he chooses to debate, fine. But it's unacceptable for him to collude with the broadcaster to dictate who his opponent is.
It's prisoners dilemma. Vote Leave are free to nominate who they want. Cameron is free to say he won't debate one of his own team. Neither is unreasonable and Cameron said he wouldn't debate one of his own team before the decision to give Cabinet ministers a free vote was formalised.
The simple solutions then are: 1 Vote Leave nominate any non Tory they want to debate Cameron. 2 Vote Leave insist on a Tory which ITV accepts and then Cameron is replaced 3 ITV break the deadlock by picking a non Tory themselves.
Given Vote Leave knew Cameron's stipulation all along (and Boris initially said he wouldn't debate a Remain Tory too) then 1 seems sensible. Looks like ITV have gone for 3.
Superb. They don't make Liberal MPs like that any more, sadly.
My favourite Clement Freud anecdote was when he an Nicholas Soames were on some select committee foreign visit and while Freud was given a top suite, he had to make do with a standard room in their hotel. When he asked the hotel management why, he was told that it was in respect of the eminence of Soames' grandfather, leaving the Liberal to rue a rare occasion of his being out-grandfathered.
Except, what is his answer when it comes to free trade area of Europe? Will he back Gove and say we will not be in the single market, which seems to me the only way to actually take back control of EU migration.
Mr. Thompson, I agree 1 or 2 is fair. The third option isn't because it removes the right of the official Leave campaign to determine who is representing it.
Anyway, the BBC's top story remains the BBC overhaul. The immigration 'spike', as it's termed, is currently the fourth story on the front page.
They show that the official measurement of immigration is fundamentally flawed....no matter how it is spun and the BBC headline is incorrect. The actual answer is the ONS doesn't actually know, because it only records people who say they will be here more than a year, not those that actually are, nor those that spend the majority of their time intermixed with some time away each year.
Boris and Gove need to disassociate themselves pronto from the lunatic who sent out that email last night. After Redwood's attack on Cameron, there is a pattern emerging here. It looks like the Tory right are increasingly seeing this campaign as a direct means of getting rid of Cameron.
It's all about Dave - his duplicity, his manipulativeness, his treachery, his cowardice, his deviousness, his shallowness, his ruthlessness, his repulsiveness.
Nice set of words to describe Dave. Though, like Blair, we should also add election winner. Something for us all to ponder perhaps.
Mr. Thompson, what's the point of an officially designated Leave campaign if it can't determine its own representative in a debate?
If Cameron didn't want the Conservatives to appear split he'd be better off considering his own conduct in recent months.
Miss Vance, UKIP, the third biggest party? They've got 1/650 MPs. Equal with the Greens, behind the Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, DUP, Sinn Fein etc.
It's morally indefensible to have one side dictate who can or cannot appear for the other. If Cameron chooses not to debate, fine. If he chooses to debate, fine. But it's unacceptable for him to collude with the broadcaster to dictate who his opponent is.
The simple solutions then are: 1 Vote Leave nominate any non Tory they want to debate Cameron. 2 Vote Leave insist on a Tory which ITV accepts and then Cameron is replaced 3 ITV break the deadlock by picking a non Tory themselves.
Given Vote Leave knew Cameron's stipulation all along (and Boris initially said he wouldn't debate a Remain Tory too) then 1 seems sensible. Looks like ITV have gone for 3.
No tin foil required!
Robert Peston campaigned for the Euro and runs ITV
ITV is part of the REMAIN Campaign
There will be consequences for ITV after the current incumbent shortly leaves Downing street (not soon enough!).
This was a put-up job by ITV to force us to make outlandish claims to distract attention from the immigration figures
I'm not sure Farage vs Dave would be too bad for "leave". Nige marmalised Clegg in the EU elections debate. I think Dave would be tougher, but it's home territory for Nigel - And both their ratings are very low right now anyway.
What this immigration row has proved to me is the fundamental importance of the Census. Okay, so if the mid year population estimates have been getting it wrong since 2011 we won't find out until 2022, but at least we will find out.
I'm not sure Farage vs Dave would be too bad for "leave". Nige marmalised Clegg in the EU elections debate. I think Dave would be tougher, but it's home territory for Nigel - And both their ratings are very low right now anyway.
It's not a head to head debate is it though?
So I suspect it'll be one of those events that will cheer up both sides and move few undecideds
ITV will put the most prominent Brexit campaigner on TV
Brexit campaign response
IT'S NOT FAIR !!!
Are you suffering from Benjamin Button Syndrome? You appear to experiencing pre-school again.
Now, now. ScottP is the military wing of the Remainers, and he's bloody good at it.
No really, he isn't. Pasting endless propaganda isn't changing anyone's mind - it's not even funny stuff that we could all laugh at.
It's like posting stuff from Eoin.
With the best will in the world, no one on this Board are going to be changing their mind, are they? Scott's ability to wind up the Leavers here with a combination of tweets plus pithy but brutally caustic commentary (as he also does with the SNP) makes him a must-read poster on this site.
Which is why so many lambast him with tedious regularity.
I'm not sure Farage vs Dave would be too bad for "leave". Nige marmalised Clegg in the EU elections debate. I think Dave would be tougher, but it's home territory for Nigel - And both their ratings are very low right now anyway.
It's not a head to head debate is it though?
So I suspect it'll be one of those events that will cheer up both sides and move few undecideds
Is your latest avatar someone who was or should have been hanged, poisoned, shot or boiled alive again ?
ITV will put the most prominent Brexit campaigner on TV
Brexit campaign response
IT'S NOT FAIR !!!
Are you suffering from Benjamin Button Syndrome? You appear to experiencing pre-school again.
Now, now. ScottP is the military wing of the Remainers, and he's bloody good at it.
No really, he isn't. Pasting endless propaganda isn't changing anyone's mind - it's not even funny stuff that we could all laugh at.
It's like posting stuff from Eoin.
With the best will in the world, no one on this Board are going to be changing their mind, are they? Scott's ability to wind up the Leavers here with a combination of tweets plus pithy but brutally caustic commentary (as he also does with the SNP) makes him a must-read poster on this site.
Which is why so many lambast him with tedious regularity.
Comments
Motability is not so much an exercise in welfare as an industry, benefiting not just the severely disabled but car manufacturers and dealers. It is the largest fleet operator in the country, accounting for eight per cent of new sales, and its muscle in the marketplace allows it to demand good terms.
But the fact is that Motability has been dogged consistently by allegations of abuse. This scheme, costing the Exchequer £2 billion a year, threatens to bring the entire benefits system into disrepute, being virtually impossible to police.
One-third of Motability customers nominate someone else to drive their car, and there is virtually no way of knowing if these tens of thousands of able-bodied drivers are adhering to a rule stating that all journeys must be for the benefit of the disabled owner.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3585783/The-car-scam-drive-crackers-Lottery-grandmother-given-20-000-car-reveal-thousands-driving-brand-new-vehicles-paid-pretending-disabled.html
I don't have a problem with UK TV and radio programmes, channels and networks having their own editorial stances, including non-mainstream ones. It's easy enough to get Russia Today, after all, and that's hardly the BBC.
FWIW, while I think that channels should be able to be biased, I think they're still be a substantial market for news which was aimed at being unbiased and that the leading players in that field would still gain a premium of prestige for that fact. That said, there are many biases besides just that of opinion: region, subject, celebrity, sport etc.; while the BBC and Sky cover politics well and extensively, this is, of itself, a relatively narrow interest.
It doesn't compute in my head, and always had you down as one of us, not lining up with 90% of all Guardian readers ;-)
It is deeply disappointing that rather than rallying behind Nigel Farage for what will be the biggest one-on-one debate of the referendum campaign, Vote Leave are instead threatening court action to stop Nigel from taking on the Prime Minister", the spokesperson said.
The statement added: "This referendum is bigger than the Conservative Party and bigger than party politics.
"It is about the very future of our country and this ITV debate will reflect that.
"All on the Leave side must put their egos to one side and support Nigel as he prepares to take on the Prime Minister in what will undoubtedly be the defining moment of the referendum campaign".
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-05-12/nigel-farage-vote-leave-excluding-me-from-campaign/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/36272668
Sigh...
Hence why the Electoral Commission went to all the trouble of choosing an official campaign. Are you being deliberately obtuse or genuinely too thick to see the difference?
Reminds me of when the broadcasters were throwing their weight around, or trying to, with General Election debates.
There's also a risk for Remain. If Farage wins, Farage wins. If Cameron wins, Boris et al. will claim it's only because the PM was frit to face one of them.
If your business was selling TV advertising, would you rather have Farage up there or Kate Hoey?
I think they'll show Remain ahead by 6-10% myself.
But I am guessing.
'Replacing Trident will cost at least £205bn, campaigners say
The government is expected soon to ask MPs to vote to replace the existing Trident fleet with four new nuclear submarines. The MoD has already spent nearly £4bn on the replacement programme. Last month, it declined to say how much it thought it would cost to replace Trident, and the ministry said the situation has not changed.
“The government needs a safe space away from the public gaze to allow it to consider policy options for delivering the deterrent in the most cost-effective way, unfettered from public comment about the affordability of particular policy options,” it said in response to a freedom of information request from Reuters.'
http://tinyurl.com/zrc8l85
I've been giving anything I can and I am just a salaried man.
Surely there are some wealthy eurosceptics out there who can make up the final £4m for Vote Leave?
Running out of time..
As I see it, had Grassroots Out won the official designation and then ITV invited, say, Boris Johnson, on to debate Cameron (assuming he was still Vote Leave), then GO would have every right to be unhappy with that (and, no doubt, would have made their displeasure quite as known as Vote Leave are doing).
The only source for that claim is the (trifle hysterical) allegation from VoteLeave.....
ITV have picked the leaders of the first and third biggest parties by votes at the last GE....what's so terrible about that?
We've published our findings to explain differences between migration figures and National Insurance data http://ow.ly/gCBP3007ZPA
Rise in short-term migration accounts for differences between long-term migrants & National Insurance registrations http://ow.ly/gCBP3007ZPA
These only measure people who say they will be in the UK for a year or more.
The question is how many say that and actually stay and also how many stay for 9 months, go away, return, rinse and repeat.
Might do a thread on it I think.
They might not be able to stifle their giggles......
If Cameron didn't want the Conservatives to appear split he'd be better off considering his own conduct in recent months.
Miss Vance, UKIP, the third biggest party? They've got 1/650 MPs. Equal with the Greens, behind the Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, DUP, Sinn Fein etc.
It's morally indefensible to have one side dictate who can or cannot appear for the other. If Cameron chooses not to debate, fine. If he chooses to debate, fine. But it's unacceptable for him to collude with the broadcaster to dictate who his opponent is.
"The campaign to keep Britain in the EU is being bankrolled to the tune of £2 million by global banks who were fined billions for bringing the world's economy to its knees.
Between them, Goldman Sachs, J P Morgan, Morgan Stanley and Citibank had to pay $27.7 billion to the US Government for mis-selling mortgages and other scandals which inflicted misery on countless Britons.
The official Britain Stronger In Europe (BSE) group – backed by No 10 – has also taken major sums from wealthy businessmen who previously insisted the UK would be 'isolated' if it did not join the disastrous euro."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3585814/Bankrolled-fat-cats-Big-banks-fund-Dave-s-EU-fight-tune-2million.html
Brexit campaign response
IT'S NOT FAIR !!!
WE HATE NIGEL !!!
If you're getting bored of hearing the message, the voters might just start to be hearing it
For "remain" I think the economy is still their best card, though Dave's ridiculous sojourns into 'war' and other nonsense can only help "leave" I think.
I think the 'It's (really) all about Cameron' argument has some strength.....
Oh, wait
The problem with Farage is he hates the EU more than Dave, whereas for the official campaign it's the other way round.
It also explains the bizarre claim that Farage (campaigner for Brexit) is not on message with the Leave campaign (campaigning for
BrexitDave's defenestration)You're right, being outflanked on the left by the Tories would be embarrassing.....
The simple solutions then are:
1 Vote Leave nominate any non Tory they want to debate Cameron.
2 Vote Leave insist on a Tory which ITV accepts and then Cameron is replaced
3 ITV break the deadlock by picking a non Tory themselves.
Given Vote Leave knew Cameron's stipulation all along (and Boris initially said he wouldn't debate a Remain Tory too) then 1 seems sensible. Looks like ITV have gone for 3.
Flashman's in for a roasting from Our Nigel.
The BBC being the BBC are giving that headline billing, funnily enough. The migration story is buried way down the list.
George Osborne is clever. But perhaps too clever?
They now want to replace Prime Minister Cameron in the debate with Farage.
Replacing him with another ex-Prime Minister.
Yep. Gordon Brown.
That's wiped the smile off Remainers faces, huh?
Getting the Labour vote out is a disaster for Leave.
Anyway, the BBC's top story remains the BBC overhaul. The immigration 'spike', as it's termed, is currently the fourth story on the front page.
(a) Surprised Vote Leave can’t find a Labour MP on its team prepared to go up against the PM
(b Considering the hullabaloo it’s causing, why has Farage agreed to the debate?
Robert Peston campaigned for the Euro and runs ITV
ITV is part of the REMAIN Campaign
There will be consequences for ITV after the current incumbent shortly leaves Downing street (not soon enough!).
This was a put-up job by ITV to force us to make outlandish claims to distract attention from the immigration figures
It's like posting stuff from Eoin.
That well known Government shill says something the Leavers might like
@Peston: ONS simply repeats its belief that lots of overseas EU Nat Insurance number holders go home after few weeks - but gives no proof
T'is a pity they have been condemning him all morning and can't now appeal to his authority...
Anyone know how to simply get the last price matched from BF into a Google Spreadsheet?
I'm thinking IMPORTXML on this:-
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/marketactivity?id=1.107373419&selectionId=5242353
but not sure how to formulate the query...
So I suspect it'll be one of those events that will cheer up both sides and move few undecideds
Which is why so many lambast him with tedious regularity.